Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

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WilliamSmith
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Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

Post by WilliamSmith »

I mixed two different subjects together: Answers are welcomed on either, or both. :)

#1 = What's the best no-BS martial art(s) for real combat?

I used to do mixed MMA a bit: Boxing, JKD (which is not my favorite for standup, but not terrible), a little Brazilian jiu jitsu for grappling, though I did little of that besides being taught some basic sprawl and takedown stuff.

I've got a library of survival and military/soldier knowhow books I'll be getting into, as well as a lot of MMA and kickboxing books.

Any opinions on the best systems though?

#2 = Any tips for solo training or what stuff you can really learn best without a training partner?

I don't like this question either because solo training obviously is not ideal at all: I'll aim to get some training partners for sure when I can, but being a bit too mobile right now moving locations around, that's easier said than done.

Video games have not been a part of my life for awhile, but I'm actually considering springing for an Oculus Quest headset and trying out some boxing sims like Thrill of the Fight, so I have at least some training in footwork and movement, bobbing and weaving, and so on. Shadow boxing has always been a staple of boxing trainers, so I think it might be at least somewhat valuable, even if not a substitute for real training fighting with other men.

Some of the guys who helped me when I was a beginner in my 20s were amazing and were practically impossible to land a punch on at first, because they had such good footwork and bobbing and weaving and so on. This huge mulatto guy let me chase him around swinging for a long time, periodically smacking me with a jab to remind me how easily he could be landing punches on me if I didn't keep my guard up, and I could barely hit him (and what I did hit him with wouldn't have ended the fight too quickly in my favor :mrgreen: ).
Then at the end he encouraged me by saying basically "Keep up the hard work on practice, because after I trained for around 6 months I was actually able to hit Don (the senior trainer)," LOL, so it took the guy I couldn't hit as a beginner half a year to be able to land a solid punch on the senior trainer.

I unfortunately kept up some bag work but otherwise got too lazy, "pausing" training and chasing women and wanting to spend all my time with them outside business work hours, and over-relied on our remaining gun rights in the USSA for theoretic self-defense.
I don't regret focusing a lot on women, but it was a mistake not to keep up martial arts, just in case that encourages any younger lurkers or anyone.
I think it does a lot of good to a man's psyche (not to mention muscles and testosterone) to practice martial arts, even if it's only some solo practice working a heavy bag or something.
Now I'm going to get back into martial arts for life and never quit again, even if I spare myself getting smashed in formal competitions. 8)
I've really enjoyed getting back into it already even with just my Century BOB, and I got some of those wall bag things to fill with rice and strike for conditioning of the hands, among other things. :mrgreen:

Without any guns overseas, I want to take combat training really seriously to make sure no one can mess with my beloved females (or kick sand on me at the beach, like "Mac" in the old "The insult that made a man out of Mac" Charles Atlas ads, LOL).
If you're serious about "taking the red pill," read thoroughly researched work by an unbiased "American intellectual soldier of our age" to learn what controlled media doesn't want you to see 8) : https://www.unz.com/page/american-pravda-series/


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Lucas88
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

Post by Lucas88 »

WilliamSmith wrote:
May 15th, 2022, 6:08 pm
I mixed two different subjects together: Answers are welcomed on either, or both. :)

#1 = What's the best no-BS martial art(s) for real combat?

I used to do mixed MMA a bit: Boxing, JKD (which is not my favorite for standup, but not terrible), a little Brazilian jiu jitsu for grappling, though I did little of that besides being taught some basic sprawl and takedown stuff.

I've got a library of survival and military/soldier knowhow books I'll be getting into, as well as a lot of MMA and kickboxing books.

Any opinions on the best systems though?

#2 = Any tips for solo training or what stuff you can really learn best without a training partner?

I don't like this question either because solo training obviously is not ideal at all: I'll aim to get some training partners for sure when I can, but being a bit too mobile right now moving locations around, that's easier said than done.

Video games have not been a part of my life for awhile, but I'm actually considering springing for an Oculus Quest headset and trying out some boxing sims like Thrill of the Fight, so I have at least some training in footwork and movement, bobbing and weaving, and so on. Shadow boxing has always been a staple of boxing trainers, so I think it might be at least somewhat valuable, even if not a substitute for real training fighting with other men.

Some of the guys who helped me when I was a beginner in my 20s were amazing and were practically impossible to land a punch on at first, because they had such good footwork and bobbing and weaving and so on. This huge mulatto guy let me chase him around swinging for a long time, periodically smacking me with a jab to remind me how easily he could be landing punches on me if I didn't keep my guard up, and I could barely hit him (and what I did hit him with wouldn't have ended the fight too quickly in my favor :mrgreen: ).
Then at the end he encouraged me by saying basically "Keep up the hard work on practice, because after I trained for around 6 months I was actually able to hit Don (the senior trainer)," LOL, so it took the guy I couldn't hit as a beginner half a year to be able to land a solid punch on the senior trainer.

I unfortunately kept up some bag work but otherwise got too lazy, "pausing" training and chasing women and wanting to spend all my time with them outside business work hours, and over-relied on our remaining gun rights in the USSA for theoretic self-defense.
I don't regret focusing a lot on women, but it was a mistake not to keep up martial arts, just in case that encourages any younger lurkers or anyone.
I think it does a lot of good to a man's psyche (not to mention muscles and testosterone) to practice martial arts, even if it's only some solo practice working a heavy bag or something.
Now I'm going to get back into martial arts for life and never quit again, even if I spare myself getting smashed in formal competitions. 8)
I've really enjoyed getting back into it already even with just my Century BOB, and I got some of those wall bag things to fill with rice and strike for conditioning of the hands, among other things. :mrgreen:

Without any guns overseas, I want to take combat training really seriously to make sure no one can mess with my beloved females (or kick sand on me at the beach, like "Mac" in the old "The insult that made a man out of Mac" Charles Atlas ads, LOL).
Wow, dude, I was thinking about opening a thread about the best martial arts training plan for real combat too but you beat me to it!

My own view with regard to your first question is that there is no single best martial art and that one must therefore cross-train and blend elements and practices from multiple styles in order to be a balanced fighter. The following recommendation is for those who are seriously dedicated to the practice of martial arts and are in it for the long haul.

Begin with MMA and other combat sports. Spend the first few years of your training in this area of the martial arts spectrum. The reason for this is simple. Unlike many traditional martial arts, combat sports involve live sparring and constant pressure testing. They also tend to prioritize the most practical techniques for combat against a resisting opponent. Even though combatants are limited by a ruleset, the ability to react under pressure which combat sports teach as well as the highly practical focus of the training and the development of physical attributes such as strength and endurance make them ideal. Don't listen to what diehard TMA'ists say. Combats sports are an excellent base for real combat. MMA techniques are still extremely effective in a street fight.

What combat sports are best to train? MMA is a good introduction since it covers striking, standing grappling and ground grappling and blends them together. However, the problem with many generic MMA programs is that you'll be a jack of all trades but master of none. I therefore recommend that while doing MMA training you also choose an area of focus, e.g., Muay Thai or wrestling. Jiujitsu is also an option but I think that Jiujitsu is the least useful of these in a street fight. So with this strategy each week you would train some sessions at your generic MMA gym and some others at your pure Muay Thai gym or wrestling club where the focus is narrower and therefore more specialized. Muay Thai is an excellent option for street fighting due to its versatile strikes and clinch work. Wrestling (freestyle) is a very underrated art. I feel much safer knowing that I can dominate a potential attacker in a clinch situation or shoot a double leg takedown on a competent striker. A sound knowledge of wrestling makes you a way better fighter.

One criticism of MMA and other combat sports is that they are aimed at competition and not for the streets. This criticism is valid to some degree.

I therefore believe that after a few years of MMA/combat sports training when one has achieved a solid base in these the student should then begin to train in a non-sporting style that is purely aimed at self-defense/the streets. This would be the second layer of our long-haul training program.

I am still unsure of what would be a good self-defense system to add onto our MMA/combat sports base. I'm thinking of a hybrid and pragmatic system like Krav Maga or JKD, but only if the school is of high quality. From what I've read, some Krav Maga schools are more authentic and have instructors who really know how to fight and teach while most are nothing more than low-quality commercial joints that teach bullshit. Same with JKD schools. Not all schools are created equal.

It is beneficial to go into this kind of self-defense system with a MMA/combat sports background. Many people who practice self-defense training know certain sequences aimed at real-life scenarios (like block, punch, kick) in theory but they don't actually know how to punch with power and good technique like a boxer or MMA fighter. For that you need to do actual boxing or MMA training. That's why I emphasize combat sports as our initial base. The idea is that we apply the correct mechanics learned from MMA to the specific scenario-based self-defense training for the streets.

As for weapons training such as knife defense, you need to seek out a specialized program, either online or through seminars (preferably the latter). Don't be fooled by the knife defense techniques taught by TMA schools. Learning a few untested knife defense techniques on a TMA syllabus won't do you any good and may even get you killed. For knife defense you need to learn from a specialist, a pro at knife combat. There's no other way around it.

This two-phase approach (MMA training followed by a self-defense program) is what I deem the best for balanced and practical preparation for real combat at this moment. Of course, this is just my personal opinion as an experienced martial artist and I am interested in hearing about other approaches and philosophies.

As for your second question, there is really no substitute for training with other people at a real gym. You can do bag work and study techniques and strategy on YouTube but in order to progress you really need to be attending class regularly and doing drilling and sparring.
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WilliamSmith
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

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Wow, thanks for the detailed advice there @Lucas88! That is awesome advice for me, and I'm sure others who see this thread will appreciate it too.

I'll re-read this and take the advice to heart for sure, but that makes me happy that cross-training is your advice, because it's FUN to learn the different systems.

I am especially interested in Muay Thai as well as the boxing and MMA foundation: They have always impressed me with their mix of ferocity, speed, and skills, and I also am totally into their traditional Thai music they often play at those matches too. :D
Also, it's just from reading other people talking about it rather than seeing it first-hand, but I've often seen Muay Thai praised as something that paid off big time in real fights, and I'm not surprised after watching them in the ring!
Now that I'm coming up on the dreaded age 40 where you feel like even more of a man in a lot of ways, yet that sensation of being physically invincible so many of us had in our early 20s isn't quite the same: I'm going to leave the ring competition getting their heads smashed with brutal elbows and flying knees to the younger generation of testo-poisoned young men and let them have the glory, but I want to practice it and boxing/MMA so I've got what it takes to protect the women.
As it happens, we watched Kickboxer last night, LOL.

To anyone who has a brain/spirit wired like mine (or whatever determines musical and other tastes, heheh), try playing the music in the first video here and watching the 100 thai boxing knockouts in the 2nd one at the same time, LOL:


If you're serious about "taking the red pill," read thoroughly researched work by an unbiased "American intellectual soldier of our age" to learn what controlled media doesn't want you to see 8) : https://www.unz.com/page/american-pravda-series/
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

Post by WilliamSmith »

Lucas88 wrote:
May 15th, 2022, 7:20 pm
One criticism of MMA and other combat sports is that they are aimed at competition and not for the streets. This criticism is valid to some degree.

I therefore believe that after a few years of MMA/combat sports training when one has achieved a solid base in these the student should then begin to train in a non-sporting style that is purely aimed at self-defense/the streets. This would be the second layer of our long-haul training program.
A humorous story to add some anecdotal support to what the more experienced Lucas88 said about how MMA is useful but also has caveats for street fights:
I've seen some situations where someone was getting out of hand and a jiu jitsu practitioner did a takedown and basically sat on the "trouble maker" to get the situation under control without having to damage them much. So there it was useful in a real scrap vs one assailant.

However, when it comes to guys who do MMA not neccesarily synching their skills with good street fighting common sense:
Some of the guys who were teaching me standup in the old days told a funny story where they actually had a bar fight break out between two groups of guys, and one of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fighters senselessly did a takedown on one of the guys in the brawl while ignoring the fact that 2-3 more violent dudes on the opposing side were surrounding him, and he was only taking down one in the middle of the other guys, LOL.
(I forget the exact details of how this brawl resolved and don't think it resulted in anyone in an early grave, but safe to say it's not the best idea to do a takedown on just one guy while leaving 2-3 of his buddies standing around above you ready to beat the !@#$ out of you with fists and pool cues among other things.)

Actually, one more silly but true story to validate how MMA and boxing both do have value in street fights, but unfortunately not in my favor this time:

I had a bit of an incident with an old friend of mine who trained with some well-known MMA fighters down in California, and the testosterone got a bit out of hand one night where we had a difference of opinion over several matters after consuming a lot of firewater and we started swinging at each other, and he ended up rocking me in the side of the head near my eye-socket with a cross that felt like he hit me with a rock, and a few more punches that left me with some very nicely placed facial scars on one eyebrow and also the bridge of my nose, but without breaking my nose, knocking out any teeth, or disfiguring me at all. So I was still pissed at him, but I ended up with some pretty masculine looking light facial scars in pretty ideal areas that I'm frankly glad to go ahead and have as "accessories," LOL. :mrgreen:
(But to any of the youngest guys who might read this: Don't worry about it if you don't have any nifty facial scars, it's very trivial and not a key factor at all in learning to score with women, so don't get in any unnecessary street fights just to try your luck with getting cool facial scars.)
If you're serious about "taking the red pill," read thoroughly researched work by an unbiased "American intellectual soldier of our age" to learn what controlled media doesn't want you to see 8) : https://www.unz.com/page/american-pravda-series/
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

Post by WilliamSmith »

This topic has really got me going, I'm stoked to be back into martial arts... :D

Another question for you (and anyone else who practices combat arts):

What about hand conditioning and striking techniques for if/when you get in street fights without breaking your hands with the gloves off?
I love boxing and so also love striking with the fist (and I am using some of those wall bag things you fill with rice, and I think originate with Wing Chun, but can be used to condition the hands at least a bit for any striking), but I read a number of martial artists giving arguments that with gloves off you should learn good ways to strike opponents without trying to put the full force of your strikes into regular boxing punches, since our hands are filled with tons of the smallest easily breakable bones in our body, heheh.

My story in my last post about my childhood buddy with an MMA background smashing me in the head with a bunch of bare knuckle punches and giving me some neat manly looking face scars proves you can get away with bare knuckle punches sometimes, but two famous stories on this subject:

Both Mike Tyson and Chuck Zito were dangerous fighters in the ring and streets by all accounts I've heard, but also had stories where they both got in brawls and broke their own hands when swinging with the gloves off, LOL.

With Zito it was him punching Van Damme in the face because Van Damme offended him with an alleged remark he'd made to someone else in the bathroom of a nightclub when they got Van Damme drunk, then Zito... well, I'll go get the excerpt and post it below, because Zito told his side of the story in his book "Street Justice":
https://www.amazon.com/Street-Justice-C ... 0312320213

Image

Apparently he was Van Damme's bodyguard for a bit but they didn't click for various reasons (I've seen Van Damme being really nice to fans, but Zito said he wasn't gracious enough), then one night in 1998:
"Being with Jean-Claude made me uncomfortable, so, after a few weeks, we parted ways. There was no big scene, no fight, nothing. It was a mutual decision . . .
We ran into each other one night at Scores, an upscale New York strip club where I like to hang out. I was sitting there, eating my steak, minding my own business, when Jean-Claude walked in with Mickey Rourke and a few of his buddies. I figured, Hey life's too short; why hold grudges? So I went over to Jean-Claude, pulled up a chair, and said hello. Right away he copped an attitude.
"Hey . . . Chuck Zi-to," he said, barely making eye contact. Now, I know my last name so it as pretty obvious that he was trying to be an asshole. But I decided to stay away from him. I didn't want or need any trouble. A little while later, though, I was approached by a guy named Frankie, one of the clubs bouncers, who had seen me talking with Jean-Claude. "Hey, Chuck," he said. "Why are you wasting any time with that prick?" [Zito] "What do you mean?" [Frankie] "I just heard him talking about you in the bathroom." [Zito] "what did he say?" [Frankie] "I asked him for an autograph and he told him we had a mutual friend--Chuck Zito. And he started laughing, saying you had no heart, **** like that."
I knew the bouncer and trusted him. There was no way he was lying. So I pulled my chair next to Jean-Claude, looked at the girl wriggling in his lap and said, "Sweetheart, do me a favor. Take your shoes for a walk." She got up and left, leaving me and Jean-Claude sitting just inches apart, staring at each other. We were surrounded by other people, but the music was loud, the place was jumping, and I'm not sure anyone realized we were on the edge of a brawl. "Jean-Claude, were you just talking about me in the bathroom?" He didn'y respond at first. Then he slowly removed his glasses, tucked them into his breast pockt, and leaned even closer; and I thought, why the hell is he taking his glasses off? Unless he wants to fight.
[VD] "Yeah, So what?" [Zito] "You tell Frankie that I had no heart?" [VD] "Uh-huh." I didn't want to disrespect the people who owned the club, and I didn't want to disrespect Mickey, who came in with Jean-Claude. But I couldn't let this go. In all honesty, I have to say that I was amazed Jean-Claude was being such a jerk. So I gave him one more chance to explain his actions. "Why would you say that?" I asked. He lowered his head. "Because you're full of ****." Shocked I reached out and grabbed him by the arm. The music was blaring and I'd misheard him. "Excuse me, Jean-Claude. Did you say I'm full of ****." [VD] "No . . . I said you're f***ing full of ****!"

And with that I hit him--twice. A straight right and a left hook. Bam-bam! Jean-Claude's chair flipped over backward, and he landed in the lap of my friend Kevin Lubic. As Jean-Claude tried to scramble to his feet, I started screaming at him. "You fuckin' scumbag! I got no heart? You got no heart! This ain't the movies asshole; this is the street and I own the f***ing street!" I started hitting him with everything I had. Jean-Claude barely even tried to fight back. He just tried to shield himself. When he covered his head I hit him in the body. When he covered his body I hit him in the face. It went on like that for about thirty seconds, until the bouncers jumped in, Mickey jumped in, and all my buddies jumped in and pulled me off Jean-Claude. He was tossed out of the club and I left on my own --quickly--before the police arrived. I went straight to the hospital, because even though he hadn't landed a punch, I'd managed to hurt myself. I could my hand throbbing. Sure enough, X rays showed a broken bone."
In another version of this story I think I remember Zito was even more light-hearted and I think mentioned Van Damme was back with a hot chick on his arm signing autographs before he even left the place bruised up, while Zito had to go to the hospital over his broken hand, LOL.

And here's another story on the same theme:
Mike Tyson won by decision against gang leader Mitch "Blood" Green in a match, then Tyson was out drunk in the middle of the night buying a custom made white leather jacket at a store, and Green was on angel dust and attacked him and they brawled in a street fight that ended up with Green's face smashed making him look like Frankenstein, but Mike Tyson broke his hand:

Their match in the ring
Image

https://talksport.com/sport/boxing/1006 ... eet-fight/
Mike Tyson got into the most infamous street fight of his life in 1988, a brutal brawl that left the undisputed heavyweight world champion with a broken hand but also fearing he had killed his bitter rival: Mitch ‘Blood’ Green in the process.

A prizefighter and gang leader, Green had actually been an in-ring opponent for Tyson during his rise to the top. He lasted the full 10 rounds with Tyson in 1986 in Madison Square Garden, six months before ‘Iron Mike’ became the youngest man to win a world heavyweight title by terrorizing Trevor Berbick. The much taller Green heard the final bell by clutching and holding the 5ft 11in Tyson in close. But their rematch on the streets of Harlem at 4am was a short, savage affair.


Green was already furious at Tyson, having claimed that promoter Don King had underpaid him and desiring a lucrative second fight that he was unlikely to get – inside the ropes, anyway. But Green had a secondary motivation for confronting Tyson in August ’88: he was part of a notorious New York gang and believed Tyson stepping into his turf, in the early hours of the morning, was a liberty he could not accept without losing face.

Tyson was in Harlem to visit a clothing shop called Dapper Dan’s to pick up an $850 white leather jacket with “Don’t Believe the Hype” – the title of a Public Enemy track – emblazoned across the back. At this point Green, who’d been told of Tyson’s presence, stormed into the shop bare-chested and spitting insults at his sworn enemy.

Tyson had been out nightclubbing and drinking beforehand. Nonetheless he claims in his autobiography, Undisputed Truth, that he was trying to play the role of a corporate, endorsement-friendly champion at the time. So Tyson replied: “Now, Mitch, you must consider what you are doing. I do not think that this course of action in the long run is advantageous for your health. You’ll remember that I already vanquished you when we met in the ring. You need to proceed to the nearest exit immediately.”

However likely you think it is that a drunk, 22-year-old Tyson delivered this speech on the mean streets at 4am, what followed was undeniably a violent beating. Tyson claims it started when Green ripped his shirt pocket, forcing him to retaliate. Green’s version is that Tyson turned his rings around (so as not to damage them) then suckerpunched him. But Tyson undoubtedly landed the first punch – and several more followed.

“I was drunk and didn’t realise that he was high on angel dust [PCP] so he wasn’t going to hit me back,” recalled Tyson. “I was throwing punches and crunching this guy and he was weaving and wobbling from side to side like he was going to fall but he didn’t go down. So I did a Bruce Lee ‘Enter the Dragon’ roundhouse kick on his ass and he went down.”

However as Tyson and his driver headed to their car, a zombie-like Green pops “back up like Jason from ‘Friday the 13th’ and kicks me in the balls”. Tyson put Green down again, but when he tried to make good his escape in his Rolls-Royce, his driver told the champ they could not move as Green was under the wheels. ‘Blood’ got up once again and tore off one of the car’s wing mirrors, further enraging Tyson. This time, Tyson got out of his limousine and landed “my signature punch, the right uppercut. Boom! Mitch went flying into the air and came down like a ragdoll, right on his head.”

Tyson was terrified in the aftermath that he had actually killed Green. However by the time the police arrived at 5am, they found Green alive but sporting facial bruising, a left eye that was swollen shut and a nasty cut on the bridge of his nose. Tyson did not escape the chaos without injury: a hairline fracture of his right hand meant his upcoming title defence against Britain’s Frank Bruno was postponed and eventually took place the following year.
Tyson and Green after the street fight:
Image
If you're serious about "taking the red pill," read thoroughly researched work by an unbiased "American intellectual soldier of our age" to learn what controlled media doesn't want you to see 8) : https://www.unz.com/page/american-pravda-series/
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Lucas88
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

Post by Lucas88 »

WilliamSmith wrote:
May 16th, 2022, 3:44 pm
Wow, thanks for the detailed advice there @Lucas88! That is awesome advice for me, and I'm sure others who see this thread will appreciate it too.

I'll re-read this and take the advice to heart for sure, but that makes me happy that cross-training is your advice, because it's FUN to learn the different systems.

I am especially interested in Muay Thai as well as the boxing and MMA foundation: They have always impressed me with their mix of ferocity, speed, and skills, and I also am totally into their traditional Thai music they often play at those matches too. :D
Also, it's just from reading other people talking about it rather than seeing it first-hand, but I've often seen Muay Thai praised as something that paid off big time in real fights, and I'm not surprised after watching them in the ring!
Now that I'm coming up on the dreaded age 40 where you feel like even more of a man in a lot of ways, yet that sensation of being physically invincible so many of us had in our early 20s isn't quite the same: I'm going to leave the ring competition getting their heads smashed with brutal elbows and flying knees to the younger generation of testo-poisoned young men and let them have the glory, but I want to practice it and boxing/MMA so I've got what it takes to protect the women.
As it happens, we watched Kickboxer last night, LOL.
It sounds like you have a good idea of how you want to train. You should definitely join a Muay Thai gym as your primary focus since this seems to be the style that interests you the most and then combine it with some basic MMA training so that you can also learn the fundamentals of takedowns, takedown defense and ground fighting. Grappling is also an important skill for fighting since many real fights end up in clinch situations. Muay Thai and basic wrestling (which you'll learn at any decent MMA gym) blend together really well.

I don't have much experience with pure boxing. From what I've seen there are significant differences in footwork between boxing and Muay Thai. Boxing incorporates more head movement (bobbing and weaving) while Muay Thai tends to be more static and emphasizes the checking of kicks and absorption of strikes as well as clinch work. Muay Thai's defensive strategies require a lot of body conditioning. I don't know how it would be to learn boxing and Muay Thai at the same time. Maybe it would be difficult and confusing. I do know however that many Muay Thai practitioners at least at the amateur levels have very underwhelming boxing skills. That seems to be a weakness that is masked by a preference for the clinch.

I myself am not good at boxing at all. Head movement doesn't come natural to me. I'm a natural grappler and so I use my forte of grappling to make up for my weak boxing. I much prefer to get in close for the clinch or get underhooks on an opponent for trips and throws or shoot a double leg. Especially in my country when everybody is either a boxer or a kickboxer but few people know wrestling. I don't wanna trade hands with those guys. I'd rather tie them up in a clinch where their superior striking is useless and slam them on the pavement!

If you go for the cross-training option and have the ability to live a nomadic lifestyle, you could ever focus on different aspects of combat at a time in an appropriate location. For example, you could have three months of intensive Muay Thai camp in somewhere like Phuket or Chiang Mai and then do a few months of foundational wrestling training in the midwest or Eastern Europe and then have a few months practicing Luta Livre in Brazil. You could rotate between disciplines. Something to consider for somebody who is both a traveler and martial artist.

I've always thought that when I'm in my 40s that's when I'll get on the juice. That's if society hasn't collapsed by then.

Kickboxer is one of my favorite movies of the 80s. The Muay Thai is baddass, the music is awesome, the women are hot and the 80s vibe is just awesome too!
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Lucas88
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

Post by Lucas88 »

WilliamSmith wrote:
May 16th, 2022, 4:50 pm
What about hand conditioning and striking techniques for if/when you get in street fights without breaking your hands with the gloves off?
I love boxing and so also love striking with the fist (and I am using some of those wall bag things you fill with rice, and I think originate with Wing Chun, but can be used to condition the hands at least a bit for any striking), but I read a number of martial artists giving arguments that with gloves off you should learn good ways to strike opponents without trying to put the full force of your strikes into regular boxing punches, since our hands are filled with tons of the smallest easily breakable bones in our body, heheh.
That's a tough question.

I always used to joke about putting on my MMA gloves every time I leave the house for in case I get into a fight in the street or in the supermarket!

The Burmese style of Lethwei which is similiar to Muay Thai doesn't use gloves, only hand wraps. It also allows headbutts, hence it being known as "the art of 9 limbs". Maybe you should check out Lethwei's training methods since fighters of that style learn how to condition their hands for (almost) bare strikes. Finding a Lethwei gym in most parts of the West is next to impossible though.

Karateka also learn how to condition their hands for bareknuckle fighting. Finding a serious karate gym where people actually fight each other (not that tip-tap shit) might help.

I myself used to hit heavybags without gloves in order to condition my wrists for bareknuckle and get a feel for it. But boxing isn't my forte. Your boxing coaches will be able to give you better advice.

Another thing you could try is some bareknuckle sparring with a trusted training partner in the garden. You basically agree to fight each other for real for the sake of developing real combat skills. It's not for everybody and you have to be a bit crazy to do it but I think that the occasional friendly bareknuckle backyard brawl can help to prepare you for the streets.
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

Post by WilliamSmith »

Lucas88 wrote:
May 16th, 2022, 6:15 pm
I myself used to hit heavybags without gloves in order to condition my wrists for bareknuckle and get a feel for it. But boxing isn't my forte. Your boxing coaches will be able to give you better advice.

Another thing you could try is some bareknuckle sparring with a trusted training partner in the garden. You basically agree to fight each other for real for the sake of developing real combat skills. It's not for everybody and you have to be a bit crazy to do it but I think that the occasional friendly bareknuckle backyard brawl can help to prepare you for the streets.
I got one of those Wing Chun wallbags that you fill rough canvas packs with rice or sand (I used white rice) and hang on the wall for punching, but yeah smashing the heavy bag is good, but I definitely am fairly convinced by all the guys telling me to use more open-palm strikes, or if you can obviously elbow strikes or the Bas Rutten thing where you slam them with your fore-arm and can put more upper body strength in. (If that was obscure, I'll elaborate later. I'm on yet another Gibson-esque bender. :) )

As for bareknuckle sparring with a trusted training partner, at 40 I'm done with that kind of thing unless it comes up by necessity, but boy I sure did do that on numerous occasions in my teens and 20's. :lol:
Me and my friend I mentioned who was born in Latin America (and gave me a number of nifty facial scars that I'm actually glad to have, even if he's a first-rate asshole) slugged it out on several occasions, including on the front lawn of a beach-front hotel until we were chased off the property by someone screeching something we couldn't quite understand, but we got the message and stopped fighting and ran away to avoid "complications." That was all back in our 20's though: I got enough of those experiences, but I agree it's informative so you can find out what it actually feels like when an experienced fighter crushes you with a right and splits the corner of your skull near your eye open and leaves it streaming with blood and pus, LOL.
Seriously, while real fighting is obviously something silly arcade games don't prepare you for, the experience of being filled with vigor to fight and win and then getting hit with a massive smash right that opened a big cut on the side of my head with a heavy impact reminded me of how the Street Fighter 2 lifebar goes way down from a huge hit, except worse: I was still 100% mentally there, but sustaining a devasting blow to my skull temporarily put me from "aggro" mode into "survival" mode, just physically taking so much of the "fire" out of me, even though this was a good friend of mine I was fighting so there was no personal animosity involved. :lol:
If you're serious about "taking the red pill," read thoroughly researched work by an unbiased "American intellectual soldier of our age" to learn what controlled media doesn't want you to see 8) : https://www.unz.com/page/american-pravda-series/
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

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I came back to this thread because a friend of mine was talking about joining some Krav-Maga academy, so wanted to ask @Lucas88 if (despite your loathing of the UK :lol: ) you know anything about the British "Defendu" that the sheenies leeched off of and re-spun as their supposed "israeli" martial art?

https://nationalvanguard.org/2020/09/th ... krav-maga/
The Non-Jewish Origins of Krav Maga
Chris Rossetti CHRIS ROSSETTI (EDITOR) · 6 SEPTEMBER, 2020
7

by Karl Radl

KRAV MAGA is in my estimation one of the foundation myths of Israel, as Roger Garaudy famously put it. It forms a key part of Israel’s Hasbara efforts by leveraging its status as a supposedly ‘deadly’ martial art and then introducing pro-Israel talking points and creating sympathy for the Jewish state.

The interesting thing about Krav Maga is its rather… shall we say… dubious ‘Jewish origins’ story.

The British Krav Maga Association summary of this is useful to quote in order to understand this:

Krav maga is a hybrid military self-defence system from Israel. The system of Krav Maga was founded by Imi Lichtenfeld and was based upon Imi’s own street fighting experiences in 1930’s Bratislava (part of modern Slovakia). Imi acquired a good deal of street fighting experience whilst attempting to defend the Jewish quarter of Bratislava from fascist groups.

The unprecedented level of violence experienced by the Jewish population at this time is hard for us to comprehend today. Shootings, clubbing and stabbing of the Jewish populace were common place and unpunished. For some these acts were considered patriotic and celebrated.

After a number of serious run in’s with local fascist groups, Imi became of interest to the authorities and recognised that his chances of survival were getting slim. Imi fled Nazi-occupied [actually, allied with, not occupied — Ed.] Czechoslovakia and arrived in Israel in 1942 where he joined the Czech legion of the British Army fighting Nazi’s. Later, before Israel’s independence from Britain, he began teaching close-quarters combat to Israel’s first fighting units the Haganah. (1)

The Brazilian Krav Maga Association’s website explains this story in greater detail:

Born in 26 of May of 1910 in Budapest, which was located at the center of Austro-Hungarian Empire, Imi was raised in Bratislava, the capital city of Slovakia.

His family education was based in sports, law and medicine. His father, Samuel, was the chief of the local secret service and was known as the agent who caught the most criminals. Besides this, he was also an instructor for grappling techniques in the secret police.

With his father s incentive, Imi practiced many different sports. Between 1928 and 1929, he won many European wrestling championships and in that year he became a boxing champion.

In the following decade, Imi focused his training as a wrestling athlete and instructor, winning many medals in national and international competitions. Ever since the mid-thirties, life in Bratislava was not the same anymore. Fascist groups slowly won political ground, therefore, changing the life in that country. Imi then became the leader of a resistance group that fought the Fascists groups. Between the years of 1936 and 1940, he participated in countless missions and violent confrontations, being alone or in a team. Imi and his colleagues fought hundreds, thousands of enemies in a cruel and unfair war. All of these events and personal experiences resulted in the strengthening of his body and spirit, preparing him for the events yet to come, and planting the seeds that germinated, resulting in the creation of Krav Maga.

In 1940, Imi left his homeland, his family and friends and boarded the last ship that managed to flee from the Nazis. It was nothing more than a simple raft, called “Pentcho”, which was adapted to transport hundreds of people who left Europe with Israel as their final destination. The stories of this raft and its passengers became famous, and were described in the book “The Odyssey”, written by John Birman.

The “Odyssey” of Imi lasted 2 years, during which, in many occasions, he jumped in the water to save the lives of passengers or a valuable bag of food in the frozen Danube River. These “adventures” gave him a strong ear infection that almost led him to death. After an explosion at the gas tank of the ship, which happened near the coast of the Greek Islands, his help was requested. After four days and nights of great effort, Imi was taken in a terrible health condition to Alexandria, where he underwent many surgeries.

Recovered, he joined the Czech Army that fought together with the British Army. And it was in this way that he fought in the middle-east, in combats in Libya, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt. In the year of 1942, he then retired from the army and received a license to live in Israel, where a new phase of his life would begin.

His arrival in the State of Israel meant for Imi only one more step in his path. But without him noticing, this “small” step would be a landmark that would influence and guide the story of the Jews in the State of Israel. Already at this time, in mid-1942, there were defense movements, based in three groups: Haganah, Hetzel and Lehi. They fought to assure the survival of the people in that region, mostly against the “Fedanin” attacks, which were gangs of Muslim criminals who pillaged, kidnapped and killed with cruelty, not for need, but just for fun. In the Haganah defense group, which was the largest organization among the three, Imi met some of his old colleagues and pupils from the Austro-Hungarian Empire. They readily introduced Imi to the Haganah chief, Yitzhak Sadeh, who immediately appointed Imi as the one responsible for physical conditioning

Imi privately taught the elite groups of Haganah and Palmah, and among these the “P.A.L.I.A.M.”. This last one, years later, became the base for the creation of the elite groups of Israeli Armed Forces. With the creation of the State of Israel, Imi joined the “Tzahal” and became the head instructor of physical conditioning and Krav Maga. This work began only in the army, and later spread to the school of physical conditioning of all the Armed Forces. During the following 20 years, Imi improved his special technique of self-defense and face-to-face combat. (2)

Notice that there is a significant gap in the narrative between 1940 and 1942 — when Imi Lichtenfeld was allegedly making his way down the Danube in raft to Greece and then somehow got to Palestine by the middle of 1942. Only for Yitzhak Sadeh — a former sergeant in the Russian army — to appoint Imi as the head of Physical Conditioning of the Haganah and we are then told that Imi taught ‘elite groups’ of the Haganach and Palmach something and it is implied — although not explicitly stated — that this was Krav Maga, which they then used in combat.

The key here is: what is the something that Imi was teaching them?

Was it Krav Maga as these two sources seek to imply?

This is unlikely precisely because while Imi had experience in wrestling, boxing and little bit of street fighting by 1940. It is freely admitted by the source material that the reality of combat and fighting was simply out of his league between the supposed formative years of Krav Maga in 1936-1940. This also nicely rules out Imi’s secret policeman father as the source for Imi’s knowledge of martial arts and actual combat.

The truth is hinted at by Isabel Kershner in the New York Times when she bows to Krav Maga’s origins myth by writing that:

Imi Lichtenfeld was born in 1910 in Hungary and reached adulthood in Bratislava, in what was then Czechoslovakia. The son of a police detective who also ran a wrestling club, Mr. Lichtenfeld excelled in various athletic disciplines and is said to have developed his street fighting and mixed martial arts skills to protect his community from attacks by anti-Semites and marauding fascists. (3)

Yet then goes on to explain that:

Mr. Lichtenfeld set off for the British Mandate of Palestine in 1940, and he began training the Zionist forces in skills like stick fighting and bayonet tactics.

After the state of Israel was established in 1948, he became the Israeli military’s close-quarters combat chief. The system has since evolved into a vital component of Israeli combat training. Elite forces endure many hours of intense coaching. There is no competitive Krav Maga circuit, because the idea is to break all the rules, not play by them, although the army did institute an annual Krav Maga contest a few years ago. (4)

So where had Imi learned ‘bayonet tactics’, as this requires standard infantry training?

Maybe the British-trained Free Czech Legion that Imi joined in North Africa in 1942?

When we further note Kershner words that Krav Maga is about ‘breaking all the rules’ then it is obvious enough that the source of Krav Maga is the British fighting system Defendu aka ‘All-in Fighting’ that was first systemised by a British police officer (and later Lt. Colonel training the trainers of anti-Axis guerrillas and espionage units) named William Fairbairn in 1926.

Defendu shares both Krav Maga’s defensive focus and was the only system of martial arts at the time that encouraged its students to ‘break all the rules. The fact that Imi’s Krav Maga is so close to Defendu and that we know British troops trained jewish guerrillas to fight with them against the Axis powers suggests that it is the origin of Imi’s sudden knowledge of a martial arts system he called Krav Maga. (5)

It is thus no surprise to discover that modern adherents and teachers of Defendu rather pointedly explain that Krav Maga is just a modified form of Fairbairn’s system.

To quote the ‘Defendo Alliance’:

The Krav Maga founder fled from Bratislava during the German occupation in 1940,to escape to Palestine. South Africa called when the Free Czech Legion team went to the British protectorate, and in 1942 with the State of Israels armed organization, the Haganah was in superannuation. During this time, the British armed forces instructors trained members of the Haganah and the armed struggle began. The British instructor taught Imi Defendo, so it is likely that this knowledge was the basis for the future Krav Maga. Starting from 1944 Imi has also participated in the Haganah, Palmach, Pal-yam soldier- and a number of police trainings. 1948, after the formation of the IDF, the Israel Defense Forces, the British withdrew from the already established Jewish state and we can talk about the territorial divisions of the two systems. (6)

It is difficult not to agree with this analysis of the situation in so far as the traditional origins myth of Krav Maga has Imi create the system ex nihilo and therefore it is a ‘Jewish invention for a Jewish state’ if you will.

This cannot be true, because whatever else Imi may have been, he simply didn’t have the knowledge let alone the combat and street fighting experience necessary to create such a system. But if he was taught an existing system by the British – who we know gave him military training – and then rebranded it as his own ‘Jewish fighting system,’ it would make sense of the rather gaping holes in Krav Maga’s origins myth as well as explain the close similarity between Krav Maga and Fairbairn’s Defendu.

So in essence: Imi Lichtenfeld was trained in Defendu by the British army, rebranded what he was taught his own creation ‘Krav Maga’ and taught it in turn to other Zionist Jews, which in turn led to it being integrated into the early IDF.

References

(1) https://britishkravmagaassociation.co.u ... -maga.html
(2) http://www.kravmaga.com.br/languages/eua/?id=o-criador
(3) https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/30/worl ... -maga.html
(4) Ibid.
(5) Simon Anglim, 2010, Orde Wingate and the British Army 1922-1944, 1st Edition, Routledge: New York, pp. 70-74; 118-119 (6) http://www.britishforcesinpalestine.org/attacks.html ; also http://www.defendo.us/defendo/defendo-a ... -maga.html
(7) http://www.defendo.us/defendo/defendo-a ... -maga.html
If you're serious about "taking the red pill," read thoroughly researched work by an unbiased "American intellectual soldier of our age" to learn what controlled media doesn't want you to see 8) : https://www.unz.com/page/american-pravda-series/
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

Post by Lucas88 »

WilliamSmith wrote:
July 26th, 2022, 9:34 pm
I came back to this thread because a friend of mine was talking about joining some Krav-Maga academy, so wanted to ask @Lucas88 if (despite your loathing of the UK :lol: ) you know anything about the British "Defendu" that the sheenies leeched off of and re-spun as their supposed "israeli" martial art?
I've never heard of Defendu as a close combat system or as the true origin of Krav Maga. So I briefly looked it up and found that it's practiced at a few clubs here and there but it seems to have been completely overshadowed by the latter which has obviously benefitted from better marketing around the world. It doesn't surprise me that Imi Lichtenfeld plagiarized his combat system from an earlier British one and then tried to pass it off as something novel and revolutionary. It seems that all those parasites can ever do is rip off other people's ideas and coopt over people's creations.

I've looked into Krav Maga schools a little since I would like to find a street-based system to combine with my MMA knowledge as I mentioned in my previous post. From what I understand the effectiveness of the system varies dramatically from school to school. I found a seemingly good Krav Maga school in Valencia but I'm reluctant to practice the art due to its association with Zionism and Israel. It just wouldn't sit well with my Gentile soul.

I'm not sure about what form my own martial arts practice is going to take once I get back into shape. I'm thinking of going more down the route of wrestling and Muay Thai. I grew bored of Jiujitsu a few years ago even though for many years it was my main art. I don't like gi training for a start and I also hate all of that "pulling guard" bullshit common at so many Jiujitsu schools who don't even bother to teach takedowns. I'd much rather have wrestling as my primary grappling art and just add some Jiujitsu to it (although in reality I did things the opposite way round since wrestling was uncommon where I grew up).

Here is a video of some Defendu training from Poland:



I like how the instructor emphasizes breaking an opponent's grip against a grab and pushing against the face to create distance and then following up with a Muay Thai style knee but I find the takedown and control technique at the end quite unconvincing (in a real fight people don't fall down so easily).
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

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When it comes to the domain of grappling I myself have a different philosophy from most Jiujitsu practitioners. It is one which places wrestling at the center.

I believe that ideally a prospective grappler should acquire a proficient level in wrestling (freestyle or folkstyle) first. This is extremely feasible in countries like the US where wrestling is widely taught and practiced as a competitive sport from elementary school all the way to NCAA level. Wrestling offers a better grappling base than merely Jiujitsu in my view. Not only is it the most practical and most effective art for takedowns, throws and takedown defense but it also teaches how to control an opponent on the ground with unbelievable pressure and efficiency and allows one to develop good habits for Jiujitsu such as a heavy top-game and explosive scrambles. It is thought that a college-level wrestler has a level of ground control comparable to that of a BJJ brown belt albeit without the submissions or submission defenses. Wrestling is undeniably an excellent base for both MMA and submission grappling.

A proficient wrestler can learn Jiujitsu and advance through the belt system extremely quickly. He already has a deep knowledge of grips, body control, pinning techniques (usually with ungodly degrees of pressure) and transitional agility as well as a takedown game far superior to almost any pure Jiujitsu competitor, above-average athleticism and mental fortitude. A good wrestler who transitions into BJJ is often able to advance through the ranks in a matter of months rather than the normal time duration of years between belt promotions. A proficient wrestler new to Jiujitsu will typically dominate the Jiujitsu blue belts and purple belts positionally but get tapped out frequently due to his lack of knowledge of submissions. But as soon as he learns the basics of submissions and submission defense as well as the guard and how to pass it, he becomes almost unstoppable. It is easy for a proficient wrestler to add the principles of Jiujitsu to his existing wrestling base. It's like learning Italian when you already know Spanish.

If you are already a proficient wrestler and use this bolt-on approach to Jiujitsu, you don't even need a really high level of Jiujitsu for your submission game to be effective. You already have your elite level of ground control and body positioning through your years of wrestling practice. With even a blue belt or purple belt level of bolt-on Jiujitsu you'll be wrecking many pure Jiujitsu guys (many Jiujitsu guys hate rolling with wrestlers for this very reason). Your solid wrestling fundamentals will make your intermediate Jiujitsu much more efficient. So why spend half a decade or longer just to get to purple belt in BJJ like most people do when instead you can spend a half a decade intensively learning wrestling and then learn Jiujitsu in no time and be a more complete grappler with knowledge of both stand-up and ground and arguably better fundamentals all round?

Let's be honest about Jiujitsu schools. Most of them offer training programs that are inefficient as hell. Sure, some schools have some good grapplers, but there's a reason why it takes years for most people to obtain the higher ranks or even just a blue belt. BJJ training is often lackadaisical, lacks a defined scientific syllabus, and doesn't emphasize drilling anywhere near as much as it should. People just walk into the gym, leisurely roll with their buddies, and chatter endlessly with their training partners during drilling after the instructor has shown a few isolated techniques, given the typical talk about "hips" and then told his students to go away and practice them. Many Jiujitsu gyms are more like glorified social clubs. I find Jiujitsu training extremely boring for all of the above despite being a Jiujitsu purple belt myself. Training at Jiujitsu gyms with a bunch of BJJ fanboys always did my head in. That's one of the reasons why I decided to move more towards the MMA side.

Wrestling is also better for street fighting than Jiujitsu. Stand-up grappling can be used to control a fight and neutralize the strengths of a striker. It can also be used to keep the fight standing (against a Jiujitsu guy) and allow a wrestler with some rudimentary brawling skills to keep the fight in striking range. Many throws from wrestling are also brutally devastating on the pavement and can end a fight in an instant. Sure, a Jiujitsu guy might get the wrestler onto the ground -- usually by pulling guard -- and have an opportunity to use an armlock or a chokehold on the wrestler. But that's where basic bolt-on Jiujitsu comes into play. A proficient wrestler with blue belt level Jiujitsu is a completely different animal.

Also, you don't need that much Jiujitsu for street fights. Blue belt level is going to be more than enough 99% of the time. Purple belt level and above is necessary only for Jiujitsu competition itself against other expert ground fighters or MMA competition which features the submission game and these days requires a fighter to be rounded in all areas of combat.

So, in conclusion, my philosophy of grappling emphasizes the benefits of wrestling as the base and then bolt-on Jiujitsu training once one is advanced in wrestling. This is the approach which I would have taken had I grown up in an area where wrestling is commonly taught and practiced. Unfortunately I grew up in a place with only Jiujitsu (and basic Jiujitsu at that) and so it wasn't until my mid to late 20s that I began to train in wrestling too.

Also, it is important to note that BBJ isn't the only art of submission grappling. There's also Catch wrestling-influenced no-gi submission grappling schools, the Brazilian rival system of Luta Livre which is also no-gi and involves takedowns and leglocks, and also Eddie Bravo's innovative no-gi 10th Planet Jiujitsu offshoot. Some of these might be better options than Jiujitsu for a wrestler interested in learning submission grappling.

Most people here probably don't give a shit about wrestling, Jiujitsu or combat sports. Maybe only @WilliamSmith and @Pixel--Dude who's trained Muay Thai with me will care about my post. :lol:
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

Post by WilliamSmith »

Lucas88 wrote:
July 27th, 2022, 9:41 am
WilliamSmith wrote:
July 26th, 2022, 9:34 pm
I came back to this thread because a friend of mine was talking about joining some Krav-Maga academy, so wanted to ask @Lucas88 if (despite your loathing of the UK :lol: ) you know anything about the British "Defendu" that the sheenies leeched off of and re-spun as their supposed "israeli" martial art?
It doesn't surprise me that Imi Lichtenfeld plagiarized his combat system from an earlier British one and then tried to pass it off as something novel and revolutionary. It seems that all those parasites can ever do is rip off other people's ideas and coopt over people's creations.
It's bizarre not only how many do that, but how high highly placed members of the tribe actually select frauds who they consciously know stole all their ideas from other people from the start, but then still promote those known frauds with huge amounts of media publicity and financing sometimes. Almost like the sociopath killers I heard sometimes deliberately leave unnecessary clues for police or journalists, because they actually want to get caught on some level, bizarre.
If it wasn't for these issues with anti-gentile abuse being so widely practiced, I'm pretty sure they'd be perfectly capable of creating things and doing positive stuff... Some of them who aren't involved in the abuse of gentiles I'm pretty sure have come up with some cool innovative stuff in computer science and technology. (I'm thinking of the guy who invented the pixel and the other guy who invented the synthesizer, for example, unless I'm actually wrong and they actually did steal their stuff from goys too, LOL.)

Anyway, back to the subject of kickin' ass:
Lucas88 wrote:
July 27th, 2022, 9:41 am
I'm not sure about what form my own martial arts practice is going to take once I get back into shape. I'm thinking of going more down the route of wrestling and Muay Thai.
Pretty much same here, as well as boxing for me: As an MMA competitor you may have other needs, but boxing and wrestling alone are pretty damn solid at least for a start, and improves your odds above the types of average goons who are most likely to attack you in some street encounter.
My childhood friend who I mentioned brawling with a lot (including my messiest bare knuckle "experimental" matches ending in us running away from hotel owners yelling at us for fighting on the lawn) did do MMA training in California, but he started out by being a high school wrestling team competitor, and he was known for being hard to beat even then (except in incidents where he was so drunk and "unhinged" he was too sloppy and belligerent to fight with his usual skill).
Bodybuilders are sort of notorious for getting their asses kicked by street fighters (unless the bodybuilders also have some martial arts training), but the surprisingly high number of meat-heads who start shit with trained boxers often find it's a whole other story and get their lights punched out by trained boxers pretty quick. :wink:
Of course, if the boxer is some guy like Mickey Rourke they have to be careful the guy starting shit with them isn't already preparing to take a dive on purpose because his whole intention was actually to provoke a punch, take his lumps, and then immediately run off to file a lawsuit to try to get some $$$ from the offended boxer from the start, rather than because he actually thought he could outpunch the trained boxer. :lol:
Boxing is also quite popular in the Caribbean, so I need to get pretty good at it so if I get any girlfriend(s) knocked up (I mean with child, not rough stuff against the ladies!!) then I can teach my future kids enough boxing and wrestling they can hold their own. I always wished I'd had a father or other male role model to teach me this stuff, but never did...

I still also plan to get into Muay Thai later too and am always open to MMA.

Oh and yeah, I respect the value of Brazilian jiu jitsu and no it's not BS at all, but I don't like training it either (it was what they taught in my earlier MMA days). I'm open to cross training but I like wrestling better, especially since I'm not expecting to have to be a high-level expert grappler or competitor at all, even though you'd always want at least some training in grappling.

I should actually be doing more right now to actually get kicks into my routine, because that obviously is something you learn from boxing. I never got good at kicks other than leg-kick basics before, but roundhouse kicks would also be a lot of fun to know how to throw (not to mention showing off to impress girls).
That actually must be an amazing feeling to KO someone with a high kick to their head... I think I remember that Croatian guy Mirko Crocop throwing some amazing high kick knockouts back when I watched tons of DVDs of Japan's "Pride" events.
I wonder if I could actually get flexible enough to do the splits like Van Damme, or if I'm too old to actually get that flexible LOL.
Image

My usual image upload place isn't loading new pics today for some reason even though they load in older threads still... well here:
Last edited by WilliamSmith on July 27th, 2022, 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you're serious about "taking the red pill," read thoroughly researched work by an unbiased "American intellectual soldier of our age" to learn what controlled media doesn't want you to see 8) : https://www.unz.com/page/american-pravda-series/
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

Post by WilliamSmith »

Lucas88 wrote:
July 27th, 2022, 1:02 pm
When it comes to the domain of grappling I myself have a different philosophy from most Jiujitsu practitioners. It is one which places wrestling at the center.

I believe that ideally a prospective grappler should acquire a proficient level in wrestling (freestyle or folkstyle) first. This is extremely feasible in countries like the US where wrestling is widely taught and practiced as a competitive sport from elementary school all the way to NCAA level. Wrestling offers a better grappling base than merely Jiujitsu in my view. Not only is it the most practical and most effective art for takedowns, throws and takedown defense but it also teaches how to control an opponent on the ground with unbelievable pressure and efficiency and allows one to develop good habits for Jiujitsu such as a heavy top-game and explosive scrambles. It is thought that a college-level wrestler has a level of ground control comparable to that of a BJJ brown belt albeit without the submissions or submission defenses. Wrestling is undeniably an excellent base for both MMA and submission grappling.

A proficient wrestler can learn Jiujitsu and advance through the belt system extremely quickly. He already has a deep knowledge of grips, body control, pinning techniques (usually with ungodly degrees of pressure) and transitional agility as well as a takedown game far superior to almost any pure Jiujitsu competitor, above-average athleticism and mental fortitude. A good wrestler who transitions into BJJ is often able to advance through the ranks in a matter of months rather than the normal time duration of years between belt promotions. A proficient wrestler new to Jiujitsu will typically dominate the Jiujitsu blue belts and purple belts positionally but get tapped out frequently due to his lack of knowledge of submissions. But as soon as he learns the basics of submissions and submission defense as well as the guard and how to pass it, he becomes almost unstoppable. It is easy for a proficient wrestler to add the principles of Jiujitsu to his existing wrestling base. It's like learning Italian when you already know Spanish.

If you are already a proficient wrestler and use this bolt-on approach to Jiujitsu, you don't even need a really high level of Jiujitsu for your submission game to be effective. You already have your elite level of ground control and body positioning through your years of wrestling practice. With even a blue belt or purple belt level of bolt-on Jiujitsu you'll be wrecking many pure Jiujitsu guys (many Jiujitsu guys hate rolling with wrestlers for this very reason). Your solid wrestling fundamentals will make your intermediate Jiujitsu much more efficient. So why spend half a decade or longer just to get to purple belt in BJJ like most people do when instead you can spend a half a decade intensively learning wrestling and then learn Jiujitsu in no time and be a more complete grappler with knowledge of both stand-up and ground and arguably better fundamentals all round?

Let's be honest about Jiujitsu schools. Most of them offer training programs that are inefficient as hell. Sure, some schools have some good grapplers, but there's a reason why it takes years for most people to obtain the higher ranks or even just a blue belt. BJJ training is often lackadaisical, lacks a defined scientific syllabus, and doesn't emphasize drilling anywhere near as much as it should. People just walk into the gym, leisurely roll with their buddies, and chatter endlessly with their training partners during drilling after the instructor has shown a few isolated techniques, given the typical talk about "hips" and then told his students to go away and practice them. Many Jiujitsu gyms are more like glorified social clubs. I find Jiujitsu training extremely boring for all of the above despite being a Jiujitsu purple belt myself. Training at Jiujitsu gyms with a bunch of BJJ fanboys always did my head in. That's one of the reasons why I decided to move more towards the MMA side.

Wrestling is also better for street fighting than Jiujitsu. Stand-up grappling can be used to control a fight and neutralize the strengths of a striker. It can also be used to keep the fight standing (against a Jiujitsu guy) and allow a wrestler with some rudimentary brawling skills to keep the fight in striking range. Many throws from wrestling are also brutally devastating on the pavement and can end a fight in an instant. Sure, a Jiujitsu guy might get the wrestler onto the ground -- usually by pulling guard -- and have an opportunity to use an armlock or a chokehold on the wrestler. But that's where basic bolt-on Jiujitsu comes into play. A proficient wrestler with blue belt level Jiujitsu is a completely different animal.

Also, you don't need that much Jiujitsu for street fights. Blue belt level is going to be more than enough 99% of the time. Purple belt level and above is necessary only for Jiujitsu competition itself against other expert ground fighters or MMA competition which features the submission game and these days requires a fighter to be rounded in all areas of combat.

So, in conclusion, my philosophy of grappling emphasizes the benefits of wrestling as the base and then bolt-on Jiujitsu training once one is advanced in wrestling. This is the approach which I would have taken had I grown up in an area where wrestling is commonly taught and practiced. Unfortunately I grew up in a place with only Jiujitsu (and basic Jiujitsu at that) and so it wasn't until my mid to late 20s that I began to train in wrestling too.

Also, it is important to note that BBJ isn't the only art of submission grappling. There's also Catch wrestling-influenced no-gi submission grappling schools, the Brazilian rival system of Luta Livre which is also no-gi and involves takedowns and leglocks, and also Eddie Bravo's innovative no-gi 10th Planet Jiujitsu offshoot. Some of these might be better options than Jiujitsu for a wrestler interested in learning submission grappling.

Most people here probably don't give a shit about wrestling, Jiujitsu or combat sports. Maybe only @WilliamSmith and @Pixel--Dude who's trained Muay Thai with me will care about my post. :lol:
Thanks @Lucas88, that was awesome! :D

I was typing out my own far less knowledgeable thoughts about wrestling based on having seen a good number of authentic tough guys in the Pacific Northwest kick ass using it IRL, and knowing it made them damned hard to beat in a fight. And I also got to see that friend I mentioned and a much bigger guy who was one of the local wrestlers have a tough drunken match after quite a few years to see who was toughest, and the little guy I mentioned fighting with won, but it was pretty close and the guy who put up a fight had wrestling training only, not MMA.

I had a hunch about wrestling being at least good enough for me to do it instead of BJJ (which I personally just don't like very much even though I'm not qualified to compare like you are), but that was really interesting, and I'm glad my hunch wasn't wrong about wrestling being good for street fighting. I like the point about wrestling being better for keeping guys who seem more reliant on takedowns standing up so you can keep smashing them rather than letting them get you on the ground.
After getting out of the USSA (where theoretic SHTF scenarios or incidents that might involve guns are a bigger possibility, like when the looters were running around everywhere a few years ago), the most likely problems I'd have would be probably either muggers, thieves who sometimes try to get on board boats to steal and occasionally clash with sailers, or just general aggro street hoodlums.

And yeah their wrestling throws seem awesome! I would like to learn those.
You've inspired me to go get physical, too bad I don't have any wrestling partners to train with, but this'll probably help me turn the page and stop the little problem I've had over the past few weeks of blowing up in drunken Gibson-esque outbursts while going on spontaneous benders, just because I turn into too much of an infant if there's no females on hand. :lol:
If you're serious about "taking the red pill," read thoroughly researched work by an unbiased "American intellectual soldier of our age" to learn what controlled media doesn't want you to see 8) : https://www.unz.com/page/american-pravda-series/
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Lucas88
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

Post by Lucas88 »

WilliamSmith wrote:
July 27th, 2022, 2:48 pm
I had a hunch about wrestling being at least good enough for me to do it instead of BJJ (which I personally just don't like very much even though I'm not qualified to compare like you are), but that was really interesting, and I'm glad my hunch wasn't wrong about wrestling being good for street fighting. I like the point about wrestling being better for keeping guys who seem more reliant on takedowns standing up so you can keep smashing them rather than letting them get you on the ground.
It sounds like you already had more than just a hunch about the effectiveness of wrestling in street fights. It seems like you've witnessed it first hand seeing some of your friends with a base in wrestling whoop others in the streets with their skills. We were all brainwashed in the 80s and even in the 90s into believing that fighting was all about fast open-handed strikes, flashy spinning kicks and elusive martial mysticism by over-the-top American and Hongkongese movies about legendary Kung Fu and Karate fighters. As awesome as those movies were, they didn't reflect reality. Those who watched the early UFC events from 1993 onwards and became involved with the primitive MMA scene of that time understood that solid American wrestling in combination with some basic boxing and some rudimentary Jiujitsu/submission grappling was the best way to beat people in actual fights and trumped any traditional martial art most of the time. The formula has been known for a long time.

Your friend who did wrestling and then MMA sounds like he knows more about fighting than me as well as being a naturally tough guy. I'm an okay martial artist with a purple belt in Jiujitsu, some basic knowledge of wrestling and Muay Thai, and a few years of consistent MMA training, but I don't consider myself an expert or anything like that. I missed out on good wrestling instruction since I grew up in a country with almost no wrestling schools vs. the US where many schools and universities offer pretty serious wrestling programs (this is another reason why I'm resentful of having grown up in the UK in addition to its subpar culture and its lack of female quality), and my striking training has lacked consistency. I have formidable purple belt level Jiujitsu and have some funky moves but my passion for Jiujitsu has been in the gutter for a few years now and I have no desire to take it further. In fact since about 2017 I mostly did MMA grappling at our local MMA school before it shut down and only went to my BBJ school from time to time since by that point I already hated Jiujitsu training for the most part as well as the whole BJJ cultural scene.

My training's direction in the future will depend on where I go and what's available in whatever given location. Where I live now used to have a broad selection of martial arts schools including a pretty high-level MMA gym (with wrestling coaches and expert MMA instructors) and a boxing club but a lot of things shut down and now there's only a couple of kickboxing schools, a karate club and my old Jiujitsu gym which I don't really like anymore. If I go back to Spain there's my old wrestling club as well as some Muay Thai gyms. If I go to Latin America I'll have to find out what martial arts training is available in my city/location.
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Lucas88
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Re: Best no-BS martial arts for real combat + solo training?

Post by Lucas88 »

WilliamSmith wrote:
July 27th, 2022, 2:48 pm
And yeah their wrestling throws seem awesome! I would like to learn those.
Yeah, the throws and takedowns from wrestling are great. They are for the most part simple to learn yet extremely effective and can be chained together as part of more complex takedown strategies against a resisting opponent. I always found wrestling's takedowns and strategies more intuitive than those of other stand-up grappling arts. Prior to learning wrestling I had gotten my stand-up grappling from only traditional Japanese Jujitsu and Judo, both of which I trained in for a while during the mid 2000s. This was before MMA was popular in my part of the world and BJJ was still in its infancy and an aspiring mixed martial artist had to take from whatever disciplines were available. However, I always found the winding throws of traditional Japanese Jujitsu and Judo overly convoluted and difficult to learn as well as somewhat impractical due to their reliance on the gi for grips. When I started to learn wrestling I felt much more comfortable with the head-and-arm control, underhooks, and simple double- and single-leg takedowns.

There are also some fancy throws in wrestling such as suplex techniques which resemble WWF moves but they are rarely ever used in practice since they expend a lot of energy, put both the suplexer and suplexée at risk of injury, and there are usually much simpler takedowns that can be done in those positions anyway. Wrestling also includes some winding Judo-like throws like the seonage (shoulder throw) and hip throws but they don't seem to be used as much as basic double- and single-leg techniques, probably because the more basic takedowns are generally higher-percentage and a failed winding throw could expose a wrestler to top control and riding at the hands of his opponent.

Here are some basic wrestling takedowns:




And here are some more extravagant wrestling throws:




By the way, this shit's way more awesome than laying on your back with other men between your legs! Take note, Jiujitsu guys! :lol:
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