Why women cannot understand or relate to us

[Winston]

Question for everyone:

What did you think of what Mark Davis' wife said in the interview with Steve Hoca? Was her advice and feedback helpful at all? Or was it the typical rosy clicheish non-controversial spiel that women often give?

Here are the segments with her during the interview again.

[Jackal]

There's a load of men who'd never give me a chance cos I don't have big tits/I'm not tanned.

Now you've piqued my curiosity. Are you a very small and thin woman? Do you get mistaken for a high school student?

And just for the record, I think you give good advice and seem quite sweet.

[NorthAmericanguy]

Yea, I do prefer rich over poor, when I am dating. But not because i want material things. Women go for security. The longer they live the more they size a man up for what he can do to protect her from the harshness of living in a cold society, like the US. In the back of may women's mind is that she will end up homeless, a bag lady on the streets.
In another society where there are strong communities of caring families and support people, I will not mind going for the poor man. But if the poor man leaves me, I see parading images of my wretchedness in the corner of the street in winter.

I found this really interesting.

I never have homelessness in the back of my mind because yes- I have a family. I have a mother and three older sisters who would look after me, and failing that, friends that would take me in. So how rich my boyfriend is is irrelevant unless I wanted trinkets and luxuries.

I do think American mindset encourages women to stick to rich guys, however. I'm reminded of an American girl I overheard talking about engagement rings to her friend. 'I'm expensive as hell!' (meaning her chap would have tp pay out loads or, presumably, he would be insulting her.) Americans like flashiness, wealth, chasing dreams and rainbows and catching stars. They think they can do anything and deserve everything and the universe is within their grasp if they just believe! It seems if an American girl settles for a poor man she is sending the message to her friends that she has given up on herself, she's not chasing that American dream, and they like to tell her she's worth more, to get a more successful guy?

Even an American man once told me that if I get engaged I should notice the worth of the ring as however much the man spent was a direct indication of how much an 'investment' I was- with the implication that I should kick him to the curb if he was trying to fool me into accepting a less expensive ring. Oh thanks- so I'm measured by money now, not love?

No other place, even Western, has this unique concoction of values.

Excellent post, and you're absolutely right. My last relationship imploded on itself because the girl that I was with felt as though I was a inferior male simply due to the fact that I could not spend a great deal of money on her.

She would compare me to her friends boyfriends, relationships she would see on TV, and the way her wealthy dad would take care of her mom. Wow! Really? I'm being compered to a man 25 years my senior? I'm being compared to celebrity men who represent 10% or less of the population?

This is when I started to wake up about women because I consider myself everything a future husband should be, and granted, the money is short on my end at the moment because I'm getting a business off the ground, but prior to Hollywood's influence, women married poor guys with no problem and made it work.

[ahardy57]

That was a good post whoever you are lady.^^

One thing about the gentle males however, I think women today make the terrible mistake of thinking that a kind man is not manly enough.

I understand that a woman wants a MAN, but many women falsely assume that the guy with the most tattoos, and is the most violent and unrefined is the most manly, and that's just not true.

A lot of women's values, sad to say, come from Hollywood. Women in the remote past certainly did not go for "bad boys" as classified as men who did there own thing, broke rules and cultural tradition, and treated people like S$$.

Most women went for men who demonstrated the ability to feed their families, and demonstrated that they were familiar with cultural tradition. The only thing close to a bad body in the past was the warrior class, or the military class, and even these men I don't consider them to be "badboys" because they still had integrity because they fought to the death for their homeland/leader.

Northamerican guy, yea, bad boys do seem to attract attention in women, because they give the woman a thrill, that takes her out of her own routine, her suffocating feminine life style. We are nurturers, protective to ourselves by instincts, not great risk takers. Our lives, with all these precautions, can become dull suffocating, and boring.
Here comes a knight in shining armor to take us out of this boring routine. The beta male or gentle male resembles us too much, he offer us nothing we don't already have. We feel suffocated with an excess of the feminine.

The bad boy acts rough, he introduces intrigues, thrills, excitement, he takes us out of our own routine life.

Every female has deep down inside of her an image of the manly knight coming and rescuing her from this excess of the female element.

Unfortunately the bad guy has more of that intrigue.
I MAY GET SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO THE BAD GUY, but personally, I chose not to give in to him, because I have the FORESIGHT to see that it will not bring any good things unless he grows up, which, most of the time he won't.

I'll wait for the good man who is an Alpha male rather than end up with a bad one, but that is me.

The beta male, I could end up marrying, but he must show courtesy, kindness; faithfulness is VERY important, a responsible nature, and the ability to give me SECURITY.
The beta male has perseverance and patience on his side, when a woman has been ditched by the bad guy enough, the beta males in her past begin to shine in her sky.

[ahardy57]

Yea, I do prefer rich over poor, when I am dating. But not because i want material things. Women go for security. The longer they live the more they size a man up for what he can do to protect her from the harshness of living in a cold society, like the US. In the back of may women's mind is that she will end up homeless, a bag lady on the streets.
In another society where there are strong communities of caring families and support people, I will not mind going for the poor man. But if the poor man leaves me, I see parading images of my wretchedness in the corner of the street in winter.

I found this really interesting.

I never have homelessness in the back of my mind because yes- I have a family. I have a mother and three older sisters who would look after me, and failing that, friends that would take me in. So how rich my boyfriend is is irrelevant unless I wanted trinkets and luxuries.

I do think American mindset encourages women to stick to rich guys, however. I'm reminded of an American girl I overheard talking about engagement rings to her friend. 'I'm expensive as hell!' (meaning her chap would have tp pay out loads or, presumably, he would be insulting her.) Americans like flashiness, wealth, chasing dreams and rainbows and catching stars. They think they can do anything and deserve everything and the universe is within their grasp if they just believe! It seems if an American girl settles for a poor man she is sending the message to her friends that she has given up on herself, she's not chasing that American dream, and they like to tell her she's worth more, to get a more successful guy?

Even an American man once told me that if I get engaged I should notice the worth of the ring as however much the man spent was a direct indication of how much an 'investment' I was- with the implication that I should kick him to the curb if he was trying to fool me into accepting a less expensive ring. Oh thanks- so I'm measured by money now, not love?

No other place, even Western, has this unique concoction of values.

BellaRuth. I know where you are coming from. That is the natural way to think about love. You really should marry for love and not for money. Good people know that. I am not talking about money here, but SECURITY. Yea, I have family and and people who will never see me homeless if the worst time comes, so it's not that I am talking about.

BellaRuth, when you live in the US, as a woman you will change if you are hurt enough. Mostly American teenagers and girls with puppy love can afford to hold the fantasy of loving the 'poor man'. Because she hasn't yet been through the hard reality of life in AMERICA.

Side by side with sky scrapers, is great poverty, homeless women of all ages kicked to the streets by those they loved or family. You see it all the time. This is literally true. Other countries, people care for each other. It's not like this in the States.

There a many women who will marry for MONEY. They see everything in terms of buy, buy, buy. I am not that. I'm talking about SECURITY. If he leaves, I will not be left begging, and in our society our marriages have a high chance of divorce, and begging for help. I will not be left destitute.

In the US, we have no security of a lifelong partner, nobody has society to fall back upon. We have FEARS. Each of us fear that this great beast of America will digest us whole in its belly.
Only certain cultures have societies that will not let you fall to the bottom when hard times come.
In the US, you learn the hard way, that you can fall, and fall to the bottom and no one will care.

It doesn't matter if you have a job, or a house or a car, you may lose it all tomorrow and be on the streets. Walk down any city in the US and talk to the homeless there. Some were wealthy and had it all, and you know what no one cares when you have fallen and you can't get up.

There are some good organization out there, if you are very lucky, that might throw you a lifeline when you fall, but it's seldom the personal touch of kindness of someone who'll stick by you and know your name.

No, I don't want a man's money. I need his strength and security. Or I stay alone.

[Winston]

Check out this interesting post I found about this subject.

http://www.theattractionforums.com/nick ... dvice.html

Why (Most) Women Give Bad Dating Advice

It just doesn’t make sense. Common sense would say that women should be able to give good advice on getting beautiful women interested in you.

But they don’t.

(OK, I’m sure some do. Love Systems Bootcamps occasionally use female instructors or assistants, but these are women who are trained in powerful Love Systems techniques. They’re not random girls who think they know what to do just because they are women.)

Now, it’s not a conspiracy. 3 billion women aren’t plotting together to give you bad advice, even if it might sometimes feel that way.

And actually, the dating advice most women give isn’t bad. It’s just…misplaced.

Typical Female Dating Advice


Take some typical comments women make:

“Just be yourself�
“Be respectful of her boundaries �
“Be a gentleman�
“Take her to dinner and somewhere romantic�

These all make sense. IF SHE IS ALREADY ATTRACTED TO YOU. Think of the last time a girl was head-over-heels into you. Or one of your female friends obsessed with some guy. She would have loved it if he did any of those things, or sent her flowers “just because�.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that your #1 dating problem is not: “This girl is really into me and I like her too, so what do I do?�

If that were the case, a Love Systems bootcamp , where guys come to learn and practice the secrets of picking up beautiful and then actually do so at the nightclubs we go to, would take about 10 minutes, instead of 25-30 hours.

But there’s more to it than this.

People put themselves into situations when they are asked for advice. And people have an idea (often from movies and TV) about how dating and attraction should work. That gets in the way of a clear understanding of how things really work.

Copernicus and Gallileo would not have had a hard time convincing people that the Earth went around the Sun instead of vice versa – if it hadn’t been for the fact that for many hundreds of years, people were told to believe the opposite.

And this isn’t the only reason. Women don’t think about the guy they have no interest in coming up and seducing them. That’s one reason why women give arbitrary reasons to explain why they hook up with someone, or just say “it just happened� which means they don’t want to think or talk about it. If she doesn’t think of herself as an elite, beautiful, model-quality woman, she probably doesn’t think you “should� be dating such women. You’ll get a talk about meeting a nice girl through friends instead. If she enjoys your attention (e.g., if you’ve been interested in her in the past), she doesn’t have much reason to help transfer this attention to other women in a way that it would be successful.

And so on…

“But it’s not fair…�

The difference between how the world “should� be and how it actually is doesn’t just apply to women and dating. Every week on The Attraction Forums (the largest and by far the best dating advice forum for men), there’s some guy saying it’s not fair that men have to make the first move, that women “should� want the sweet guy who maybe doesn’t have much game, or that dating “should� be easier.

And…enter reality.

Dating and picking up beautiful women does not happen like in the movies. We’ve had a number of Hollywood screenwriters as clients on bootcamps or private training and they usually have no idea how to pick up beautiful women in the real world.

Put another way, I’d love to live in a world without car crashes. I could watch TV while driving. That’s maybe how things “should� be. But living in that imagery world would make me…dead.

You won’t die because you live in an imaginary world about dating and picking up beautiful women. You’ll just be alone.

But there is a choice. You can drop old and useless beliefs. You can adopt the idea that the world may not be perfect, but it’s where you live, so you may as well figure out how to navigate through it and meet your goals.

That’s part of the reason the Magic Bullets Handbook , is so controversial and why some female commentators hate it. It turns conventional wisdom on its ear. It’s morally neutral. It doesn’t care whether you want her for a one night stand or marriage. It just tells you how to make her want you.


Six Truths About Attraction Most Women Don’t Know*
*(or won’t tell you)

1 – Most beautiful women are sleeping with someone. Most also have men who they aren’t sleeping with, who take them on romantic dates. The guy she’s sleeping with, even if (especially if) she calls him an asshole or says she would never date him – he has a 100% better chance of making her his girlfriend than any of the random guys “Dating and Waiting�. You’ll have plenty of time for romantic dinners when she’s your long-term girlfriend.

2 – Most women like a man who can seduce. Who can lead her to bed smoothly and not awkwardly. Who can let her give token resistance (e.g., “I’m not going to go home with you�) and confidently make it happen anyway. No always means no, but men who know Love Systems are good at turning a no into a yes. Which is entirely an emotional process – change her mood, not her mind.

3 – Any emotion is better than no emotion. You have a much better chance of dating or sleeping with a woman who currently hates you than one is indifferent to you. Nice guys leave most women indifferent.

4 – Just because she has a boyfriend doesn’t mean she’s not looking to trade up. You
can make whatever ethical decisions you like, but don’t give yourself an excuse that she is “unavailable� because she has a boyfriend . (Longer blog post here)

5 – Attraction is transferrable. No woman in the world will agree with this unless you show it to her when it’s happening. So go try it for yourself. Go to a bar and get a girl super-attracted and into you and then disappear for half an hour. She’ll be all over someone else. This is one reason why it’s important to know how to deal with other men and obstacles – you don’t want them taking advantage of all of your hard work. (Or maybe, just maybe, you want to take advantage of theirs.

6 – Women’s sexual decision-making process is extremely arbitrary. A woman may say she’d never go home with a guy with a bar and that she never has (except for a couple of time that “don’t count�) and that may be an honest expression of her feelings at that time….but a few seconds after you get her phone number and convince yourself you’ve done the best you can, another guy can be leading her home. Ask a woman what kind of men she likes or what she’s looking for, and I’m sure you’ll get a list. That list will usually be things she thinks she should be attracted to – nice dresser, good sense of humor , good values, and so on. Some of it is even true. But that list will have NOTHING to do with who she feels attracted to on Saturday night.

There’s so much more I could say here – a lot of this is covered in the Relationship Management DVD Home Study Course –how to make her your girlfriend, how to date multiple women without lying, how to get and manage friends with benefits , how to know when she’s about to cheat, and much more. It’s hours of material with some of our best insights into Female Psychology .

Last word on the subject – to be a good doctor, you’d learn from other doctors, not their patients. To be a good guitarist, you’d study a musician, not a concert audience. And to become great with women, look at other guys like you who are great with women.

BellaRuth, Ahardy, what do you think of the "6 truths about attraction most women don't know" above?

Apparently, there are many articles about women giving bad dating advice. Have a look at these search results.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=e ... b076cb8dd1

[Winston]

Ahardy,
You say you've been lurking here for 2 years? What got you interested in this site? What interests you about a site for men seeking foreign women? Is it the out of the box discussions about culture and people?

[zzzz]

3 – Any emotion is better than no emotion. You have a much better chance of dating or sleeping with a woman who currently hates you than one is indifferent to you. Nice guys leave most women indifferent.

Women seem to love drama. It gives them something to talk about and think about.

[ahardy57]

Hi ahardy, those are interesting insights. Women are on a different wavelength I guess.

Where are you from? How did you find this site?

And what do you conider an "alpha male"? A guy who has it all, looks, height and money, coupled with confidence and charisma? Those guys are the hardest to get.

What advice would you give to men who want to attract more women, besides going abroad of course?

I found this site while browsing through Google. I consider an "alpha male" a natural born leader, who will protect me, and keep me in line because he is strong and have the ability to lead. He will temper my strong female nature, and he will be a rock in my storm.

Though I am attracted to alpha males, I only go for the kind ones, because i will not let a man abuse me or disrespect me.

I will walk out on alpha male if he goes against my principle. That's why I don't go with just any alpha who I have chemistry with. Yes, I will reject an alpha if he has low integrity.

A beta male, I don't even look at. He is not on my horizon. He is a threat to me. Keep in mind, this is going on on an unconscious level. I don't hate anyone, I'm polite to all, and treat all men with respect if they approach me.

A beta male makes me feel insecure and unprotected. I see him at best, as a brother. I feel no chemistry for him.

This is not something I chose, it's as if I'm wired that way.

But when I do fall for a beta is because he is kind and always there for me, and shows up when the alpha is so full of himself he cannot care for you. The beta has the better gentler qualities that produces enduring love. But he must persist in showing up in subtle ways, without making it look like stalking. Time is his friend in the US. In other cultures like the Phillippines, he just can be himself, and people will appreciate him for who he is,

In America, the beta male is better off persistent patient, and studying the nature of the women he wants. Some women actually go for them and think they are great. My mother chose only beta men. My friend chose one too. Some strong women actually see them as desirable.

Never try to please a woman and kiss her feet, unless she already looks up to you.
It will backfire big time. I will see you as weak.
It's unconscious. I don't chose my feelings.
I am programmed to look UP for love.
Don't indulge me if you haven't earned my respect, because you'll lose whatever little esteem I already have for you.
Flowers will do nothing for me, if I don't look up to you.
Remember, Napoleon was a short man. There are many ugly men out there who women adore.
The only thing that we understand in men is strength. If you spoil us we hate you, if you give in to us we, we lose interest.
Tease us, hold our interests, give to us when you have our interest, surprise us, never show weakness, unless you are already up there in our esteem. But if you show a sensitive side, follow with a show of strength soon after.
Never hesitate, never second guess yourself.
It's really true, confidence wins the woman.

[ahardy57]

Check out this interesting post I found about this subject.

http://www.theattractionforums.com/nick ... dvice.html

Why (Most) Women Give Bad Dating Advice

It just doesn’t make sense. Common sense would say that women should be able to give good advice on getting beautiful women interested in you.

But they don’t.

(OK, I’m sure some do. Love Systems Bootcamps occasionally use female instructors or assistants, but these are women who are trained in powerful Love Systems techniques. They’re not random girls who think they know what to do just because they are women.)

Now, it’s not a conspiracy. 3 billion women aren’t plotting together to give you bad advice, even if it might sometimes feel that way.

And actually, the dating advice most women give isn’t bad. It’s just…misplaced.

Typical Female Dating Advice


Take some typical comments women make:

“Just be yourself�
“Be respectful of her boundaries �
“Be a gentleman�
“Take her to dinner and somewhere romantic�

These all make sense. IF SHE IS ALREADY ATTRACTED TO YOU. Think of the last time a girl was head-over-heels into you. Or one of your female friends obsessed with some guy. She would have loved it if he did any of those things, or sent her flowers “just because�.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that your #1 dating problem is not: “This girl is really into me and I like her too, so what do I do?�

If that were the case, a Love Systems bootcamp , where guys come to learn and practice the secrets of picking up beautiful and then actually do so at the nightclubs we go to, would take about 10 minutes, instead of 25-30 hours.

But there’s more to it than this.

People put themselves into situations when they are asked for advice. And people have an idea (often from movies and TV) about how dating and attraction should work. That gets in the way of a clear understanding of how things really work.

Copernicus and Gallileo would not have had a hard time convincing people that the Earth went around the Sun instead of vice versa – if it hadn’t been for the fact that for many hundreds of years, people were told to believe the opposite.

And this isn’t the only reason. Women don’t think about the guy they have no interest in coming up and seducing them. That’s one reason why women give arbitrary reasons to explain why they hook up with someone, or just say “it just happened� which means they don’t want to think or talk about it. If she doesn’t think of herself as an elite, beautiful, model-quality woman, she probably doesn’t think you “should� be dating such women. You’ll get a talk about meeting a nice girl through friends instead. If she enjoys your attention (e.g., if you’ve been interested in her in the past), she doesn’t have much reason to help transfer this attention to other women in a way that it would be successful.

And so on…

“But it’s not fair…�

The difference between how the world “should� be and how it actually is doesn’t just apply to women and dating. Every week on The Attraction Forums (the largest and by far the best dating advice forum for men), there’s some guy saying it’s not fair that men have to make the first move, that women “should� want the sweet guy who maybe doesn’t have much game, or that dating “should� be easier.

And…enter reality.

Dating and picking up beautiful women does not happen like in the movies. We’ve had a number of Hollywood screenwriters as clients on bootcamps or private training and they usually have no idea how to pick up beautiful women in the real world.

Put another way, I’d love to live in a world without car crashes. I could watch TV while driving. That’s maybe how things “should� be. But living in that imagery world would make me…dead.

You won’t die because you live in an imaginary world about dating and picking up beautiful women. You’ll just be alone.

But there is a choice. You can drop old and useless beliefs. You can adopt the idea that the world may not be perfect, but it’s where you live, so you may as well figure out how to navigate through it and meet your goals.

That’s part of the reason the Magic Bullets Handbook , is so controversial and why some female commentators hate it. It turns conventional wisdom on its ear. It’s morally neutral. It doesn’t care whether you want her for a one night stand or marriage. It just tells you how to make her want you.


Six Truths About Attraction Most Women Don’t Know*
*(or won’t tell you)

1 – Most beautiful women are sleeping with someone. Most also have men who they aren’t sleeping with, who take them on romantic dates. The guy she’s sleeping with, even if (especially if) she calls him an asshole or says she would never date him – he has a 100% better chance of making her his girlfriend than any of the random guys “Dating and Waiting�. You’ll have plenty of time for romantic dinners when she’s your long-term girlfriend.

2 – Most women like a man who can seduce. Who can lead her to bed smoothly and not awkwardly. Who can let her give token resistance (e.g., “I’m not going to go home with you�) and confidently make it happen anyway. No always means no, but men who know Love Systems are good at turning a no into a yes. Which is entirely an emotional process – change her mood, not her mind.

3 – Any emotion is better than no emotion. You have a much better chance of dating or sleeping with a woman who currently hates you than one is indifferent to you. Nice guys leave most women indifferent.

4 – Just because she has a boyfriend doesn’t mean she’s not looking to trade up. You
can make whatever ethical decisions you like, but don’t give yourself an excuse that she is “unavailable� because she has a boyfriend . (Longer blog post here)

5 – Attraction is transferrable. No woman in the world will agree with this unless you show it to her when it’s happening. So go try it for yourself. Go to a bar and get a girl super-attracted and into you and then disappear for half an hour. She’ll be all over someone else. This is one reason why it’s important to know how to deal with other men and obstacles – you don’t want them taking advantage of all of your hard work. (Or maybe, just maybe, you want to take advantage of theirs.

6 – Women’s sexual decision-making process is extremely arbitrary. A woman may say she’d never go home with a guy with a bar and that she never has (except for a couple of time that “don’t count�) and that may be an honest expression of her feelings at that time….but a few seconds after you get her phone number and convince yourself you’ve done the best you can, another guy can be leading her home. Ask a woman what kind of men she likes or what she’s looking for, and I’m sure you’ll get a list. That list will usually be things she thinks she should be attracted to – nice dresser, good sense of humor , good values, and so on. Some of it is even true. But that list will have NOTHING to do with who she feels attracted to on Saturday night.

There’s so much more I could say here – a lot of this is covered in the Relationship Management DVD Home Study Course –how to make her your girlfriend, how to date multiple women without lying, how to get and manage friends with benefits , how to know when she’s about to cheat, and much more. It’s hours of material with some of our best insights into Female Psychology .

Last word on the subject – to be a good doctor, you’d learn from other doctors, not their patients. To be a good guitarist, you’d study a musician, not a concert audience. And to become great with women, look at other guys like you who are great with women.

BellaRuth, Ahardy, what do you think of the "6 truths about attraction most women don't know" above?

Apparently, there are many articles about women giving bad dating advice. Have a look at these search results.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=e ... b076cb8dd1

I have been on here Winston, only six weeks, not as long as you mentioned. Check my join date and that's how long I have been here

Winston, from my perspective, those statements are generally true. Women are generally capricious. We are governed by moods, form one moment to the next. We don't always know what we want. But we are wired a certain way. We act according to programmings a lot of the time. There is natural programming from nature, and there is learnt programming from our culture. Years and years of the latter. There is the selfish woman and the fair woman. By fair, I mean she will not use you, nor step on you to advance her agenda.

Among the selfish women, is the man haters; the women who choose to act like men and are proud of it and teach others to do so, and a few women who have been so burnt in the past that she decides to hate all things male. And there are other women who are selfish with everyone, male or female.

The fair woman, is usually not loud, nor does she draw negative attention to herself. She does not get a kick crushing your ego. She rises when you rise, or she will disengage herself, if she finds that you and her are not meant to be.

To get a woman to date you, don't be nice to her. Women are drawn to status, to power, to money. Unfortunately, the last one is true also. If some women say they are not interested in money they are either high school girls with an infatuation, women in societies where the lack of money does not affect there security, or a few genuinely spiritual women, the rest are probably lying or deceiving themselves.

Status, power and money shows that the man will protect her, so she feels more ready to open her heart to him.

The lack of these three, and some women will still love you. But the women some men long for, might not be attracted to a man if he does not have these qualities. You may not get the woman with the desired traits you like. We pick the guys, it's not the other way around. It's the hard truth. We may let you believe that you are picking us, but we do all the picking. You just are led to believe you do.
We reject and we do it naturally, within the first moment of meeting a beta guy, we have already sized him up. Our defenses go automatically up. Some of us are polite and walk away, some ignore, and some are rude. I always choose 'polite'.
When in the presence of an alpha male, there is a physical response in my whole body, the air is charged electrically. I act different. I send out unconscious signals. I am also reacting to his signals. Everything is nonverbal, eye contact, our locked gaze, my lowering of the eyelids, blushing. I am totally female at that point. We are sharing something in secret that a whole room does not know about. We want each other, but we have to play by the rules. Often time, life happens and a few moments later, I'm out the door, let's say in a store, without ever getting to know him. But these unconscious interactions happen all the time.
With the beta male, I'm polite. He will have to woo me to get my attention, and he must not show any desire to kiss my feet. I will look down on him if he does that. For him to improve his prospect, he must go against everything in him that desires to please me. He must hold back. He has to show his dominance. He has to show that he could dominate me. And I will test him. It's as though I am programmed to test him.
Remember, Sleeping Beauty, Sir Gallant, the Prince, must overcome all obstacles to reach the sleeping princess. There are thick woods that has grown around the castle. Many have tried and dies trying to reach the princess. The princess belongs to the man gallant enough to cut through the overgrowth. Only after many obstacles he reaches the Princess.
Fairytales are just truths that have been with us over the ages, and put into stories, and this is no exception.
Any man can find a woman, and if she is worth it to you, you have to stop being nice to her and build your confidence up. You are the prize, but no women will tell you that. She has to earn you. There, that was hard to tell you my deep secret.

[ahardy57]

Check out this interesting post I found about this subject.

http://www.theattractionforums.com/nick ... dvice.html

Why (Most) Women Give Bad Dating Advice

It just doesn’t make sense. Common sense would say that women should be able to give good advice on getting beautiful women interested in you.

But they don’t.

(OK, I’m sure some do. Love Systems Bootcamps occasionally use female instructors or assistants, but these are women who are trained in powerful Love Systems techniques. They’re not random girls who think they know what to do just because they are women.)

Now, it’s not a conspiracy. 3 billion women aren’t plotting together to give you bad advice, even if it might sometimes feel that way.

And actually, the dating advice most women give isn’t bad. It’s just…misplaced.

Typical Female Dating Advice


Take some typical comments women make:

“Just be yourself�
“Be respectful of her boundaries �
“Be a gentleman�
“Take her to dinner and somewhere romantic�

These all make sense. IF SHE IS ALREADY ATTRACTED TO YOU. Think of the last time a girl was head-over-heels into you. Or one of your female friends obsessed with some guy. She would have loved it if he did any of those things, or sent her flowers “just because�.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that your #1 dating problem is not: “This girl is really into me and I like her too, so what do I do?�

If that were the case, a Love Systems bootcamp , where guys come to learn and practice the secrets of picking up beautiful and then actually do so at the nightclubs we go to, would take about 10 minutes, instead of 25-30 hours.

But there’s more to it than this.

People put themselves into situations when they are asked for advice. And people have an idea (often from movies and TV) about how dating and attraction should work. That gets in the way of a clear understanding of how things really work.

Copernicus and Gallileo would not have had a hard time convincing people that the Earth went around the Sun instead of vice versa – if it hadn’t been for the fact that for many hundreds of years, people were told to believe the opposite.

And this isn’t the only reason. Women don’t think about the guy they have no interest in coming up and seducing them. That’s one reason why women give arbitrary reasons to explain why they hook up with someone, or just say “it just happened� which means they don’t want to think or talk about it. If she doesn’t think of herself as an elite, beautiful, model-quality woman, she probably doesn’t think you “should� be dating such women. You’ll get a talk about meeting a nice girl through friends instead. If she enjoys your attention (e.g., if you’ve been interested in her in the past), she doesn’t have much reason to help transfer this attention to other women in a way that it would be successful.

And so on…

“But it’s not fair…�

The difference between how the world “should� be and how it actually is doesn’t just apply to women and dating. Every week on The Attraction Forums (the largest and by far the best dating advice forum for men), there’s some guy saying it’s not fair that men have to make the first move, that women “should� want the sweet guy who maybe doesn’t have much game, or that dating “should� be easier.

And…enter reality.

Dating and picking up beautiful women does not happen like in the movies. We’ve had a number of Hollywood screenwriters as clients on bootcamps or private training and they usually have no idea how to pick up beautiful women in the real world.

Put another way, I’d love to live in a world without car crashes. I could watch TV while driving. That’s maybe how things “should� be. But living in that imagery world would make me…dead.

You won’t die because you live in an imaginary world about dating and picking up beautiful women. You’ll just be alone.

But there is a choice. You can drop old and useless beliefs. You can adopt the idea that the world may not be perfect, but it’s where you live, so you may as well figure out how to navigate through it and meet your goals.

That’s part of the reason the Magic Bullets Handbook , is so controversial and why some female commentators hate it. It turns conventional wisdom on its ear. It’s morally neutral. It doesn’t care whether you want her for a one night stand or marriage. It just tells you how to make her want you.


Six Truths About Attraction Most Women Don’t Know*
*(or won’t tell you)

1 – Most beautiful women are sleeping with someone. Most also have men who they aren’t sleeping with, who take them on romantic dates. The guy she’s sleeping with, even if (especially if) she calls him an asshole or says she would never date him – he has a 100% better chance of making her his girlfriend than any of the random guys “Dating and Waiting�. You’ll have plenty of time for romantic dinners when she’s your long-term girlfriend.

2 – Most women like a man who can seduce. Who can lead her to bed smoothly and not awkwardly. Who can let her give token resistance (e.g., “I’m not going to go home with you�) and confidently make it happen anyway. No always means no, but men who know Love Systems are good at turning a no into a yes. Which is entirely an emotional process – change her mood, not her mind.

3 – Any emotion is better than no emotion. You have a much better chance of dating or sleeping with a woman who currently hates you than one is indifferent to you. Nice guys leave most women indifferent.

4 – Just because she has a boyfriend doesn’t mean she’s not looking to trade up. You
can make whatever ethical decisions you like, but don’t give yourself an excuse that she is “unavailable� because she has a boyfriend . (Longer blog post here)

5 – Attraction is transferrable. No woman in the world will agree with this unless you show it to her when it’s happening. So go try it for yourself. Go to a bar and get a girl super-attracted and into you and then disappear for half an hour. She’ll be all over someone else. This is one reason why it’s important to know how to deal with other men and obstacles – you don’t want them taking advantage of all of your hard work. (Or maybe, just maybe, you want to take advantage of theirs.

6 – Women’s sexual decision-making process is extremely arbitrary. A woman may say she’d never go home with a guy with a bar and that she never has (except for a couple of time that “don’t count�) and that may be an honest expression of her feelings at that time….but a few seconds after you get her phone number and convince yourself you’ve done the best you can, another guy can be leading her home. Ask a woman what kind of men she likes or what she’s looking for, and I’m sure you’ll get a list. That list will usually be things she thinks she should be attracted to – nice dresser, good sense of humor , good values, and so on. Some of it is even true. But that list will have NOTHING to do with who she feels attracted to on Saturday night.

There’s so much more I could say here – a lot of this is covered in the Relationship Management DVD Home Study Course –how to make her your girlfriend, how to date multiple women without lying, how to get and manage friends with benefits , how to know when she’s about to cheat, and much more. It’s hours of material with some of our best insights into Female Psychology .

Last word on the subject – to be a good doctor, you’d learn from other doctors, not their patients. To be a good guitarist, you’d study a musician, not a concert audience. And to become great with women, look at other guys like you who are great with women.

BellaRuth, Ahardy, what do you think of the "6 truths about attraction most women don't know" above?

Apparently, there are many articles about women giving bad dating advice. Have a look at these search results.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=e ... b076cb8dd1

I have been on here Winston, only six weeks, not as long as you mentioned. Check my join date and that's how long I have been here

Winston, from my perspective, those statements are generally true. Women are generally capricious. We are governed by moods, form one moment to the next. We don't always know what we want. But we are wired a certain way. We act according to programmings a lot of the time. There is natural programming from nature, and there is learnt programming from our culture. Years and years of the latter. There is the selfish woman and the fair woman. By fair, I mean she will not use you, nor step on you to advance her agenda.

Among the selfish women, is the man haters; the women who choose to act like men and are proud of it and teach others to do so, and a few women who have been so burnt in the past that she decides to hate all things male. And there are other women who are selfish with everyone, male or female.

The fair woman, is usually not loud, nor does she draw negative attention to herself. She does not get a kick crushing your ego. She rises when you rise, or she will disengage herself, if she finds that you and her are not meant to be.

To get a woman to date you, don't be nice to her. Women are drawn to status, to power, to money. Unfortunately, the last one is true also. If some women say they are not interested in money they are either high school girls with an infatuation, women in societies where the lack of money does not affect there security, or a few genuinely spiritual women, the rest are probably lying or deceiving themselves.

Status, power and money shows that the man will protect her, so she feels more ready to open her heart to him.

The lack of these three, and some women will still love you. But the women some men long for, might not be attracted to a man if he does not have these qualities. You may not get the woman with the desired traits you like. We pick the guys, it's not the other way around. It's the hard truth. We may let you believe that you are picking us, but we do all the picking. You just are led to believe you do.
We reject and we do it naturally, within the first moment of meeting a beta guy, we have already sized him up. Our defenses go automatically up. Some of us are polite and walk away, some ignore, and some are rude. I always choose 'polite'.
When in the presence of an alpha male, there is a physical response in my whole body, the air is charged electrically. I act different. I send out unconscious signals. I am also reacting to his signals. Everything is nonverbal, eye contact, our locked gaze, my lowering of the eyelids, blushing. I am totally female at that point. We are sharing something in secret that a whole room does not know about. We want each other, but we have to play by the rules. Often time, life happens and a few moments later, I'm out the door, let's say in a store, without ever getting to know him. But these unconscious interactions happen all the time.
With the beta male, I'm polite. He will have to woo me to get my attention, and he must not show any desire to kiss my feet. I will look down on him if he does that. For him to improve his prospect, he must go against everything in him that desires to please me. He must hold back. He has to show his dominance. He has to show that he could dominate me. And I will test him. It's as though I am programmed to test him.
Remember, Sleeping Beauty, Sir Gallant, the Prince, must overcome all obstacles to reach the sleeping princess. There are thick woods that has grown around the castle. Many have tried and dies trying to reach the princess. The princess belongs to the man gallant enough to cut through the overgrowth. Only after many obstacles he reaches the Princess.
Fairytales are just truths that have been with us over the ages, and put into stories, and this is no exception.
Any man can find a woman, and if she is worth it to you, you have to stop being nice to her and build your confidence up. You are the prize, but no women will tell you that. She has to earn you. There, that was hard to tell you my deep secret.

[globetrotter]

What a woman says is irrelevant.

Only look at what she does.

What she says, or what she writes, is just a waste of time.

Action is all.

[Rock]

1. A lot of what Ahardy has said strongly supports some of the later core philosophies David DeAngelo and the PU gurus in his camp. His training focus seemed to evolve over time from superficial skills which were good for getting numbers or generating light banter to an inner game and self improvement emphasis which taught men how to internalize, over time, real alpha male thinking.

2. I don't discount her automatically because she's a woman either. I was the first to admit that certain girls, including Bella, can provide useful insights. The fact is, a lot of what she says makes sense in light of my own experience.

3. Now I suspect the ease of going the non-alpha male route varies from culture to culture. Much of my own experience is with NE Asian women (mainly Chinese) and I'm pretty sure this strategy has a much stronger chance here than in the States, Europe, and even Latin America. I've observed dozens of cases where men, usually locals, have slowly won a woman's heart over, just by being politely persistent, ever present, but usually composed and in control of their emotions. Often, the woman in question is much more physically attractive than the guy. The game can go on for months or even years and sometimes the girl dates playboys or foreigners during the process. Of course, the guy realizes that these 'romeos' will probably disappear in short order and when they do, he's there to comfort her. Now in America, he would probably be a permanent friend at best, the understanding shoulder to cry on. But many Chinese women I've seen get genuinely touched by such guys and will quickly get serious and marry them, especially once they reach mid-late 20s.

4. When it comes to chemistry, isn't a lot of it just a fancy way to describe physical attraction and charm? Consider any hot woman that you see sometimes in person, perhaps a co-worker, classmate, or friend of a friend. There's a good chance you feel strong 'chemistry' towards her, especially if she is somewhat nice to you and makes you believe you 'just might have a chance'. Now imagine that she goes on an eating binge and manages to gain 25 kgs. or maybe she gets addicted to meth and within months looks 20 years older. In those circumstances, do you still think you will feel strong 'chemistry' towards her? Be honest. Its widely believed that woman are not as visually driven as men. But I think most of us still believe, better looks help a man out a lot in attracting women.

My point is, if you have low lying fruit (overweight from inactivity, lack of muscle tone, dress poorly, bad hair cut, poor hygiene, sloppy posture, body odor, etc.), don't you think you could improve your chances of sparking chemistry from females if you handled these issues? They're going to make a difference with some girls. Remember that poster from a couple months ago who claimed after he worked-out for a few weeks and got more buff, women seemed to notice him a lot more? Makes a lot of sense to me.

[Repatriate]

1. A lot of what Ahardy has said strongly supports some of the later core philosophies David DeAngelo and the PU gurus in his camp. His training focus seemed to evolve over time from superficial skills which were good for getting numbers or generating light banter to an inner game and self improvement emphasis which taught men how to internalize, over time, real alpha male thinking.

This is the part of PUA that I think works because they have managed to condense entire books on sexual attraction behavior and psychology down to a few basic interaction and confidence principles. The dressing like a clown stuff and other gimmicks is best left for the "pros" who have a name and reputation to flaunt.

I've observed dozens of cases where men, usually locals, have slowly won a woman's heart over, just by being politely persistent, ever present, but usually composed and in control of their emotions. Often, the woman in question is much more physically attractive than the guy. The game can go on for months or even years and sometimes the girl dates playboys or foreigners during the process. Of course, the guy realizes that these 'romeos' will probably disappear in short order and when they do, he's there to comfort her. Now in America, he would probably be a permanent friend at best, the understanding shoulder to cry on. But many Chinese women I've seen get genuinely touched by such guys and will quickly get serious and marry them, especially once they reach mid-late 20s.

It works but this sort of cultural courtship evolved after generations of men promising to marry virgins and be provider husbands. It was done out of necessity. Now in the modern era women have more choices and this kind of "beta" courtship process may work in parts of Asia but what you end up with is relationships where respect is fleeting. Women may marry someone like this as a safety and because it's socially acceptable but down the road these men get seriously henpecked by their wives. I don't believe it's a healthy foundation and I think a lot of Chinese women marry for convenience and financial stability.

There are quite a few members of my extended family that married wives like this and i'm sure they were the "beta" choice throughout their relationship. In the end it seems like both parties are incredibly miserable. The man for putting all his eggs in one basket and the woman for settling on someone who does not truly interest her sexually or emotionally but managed to woo her through comfort.

[NorthAmericanguy]

Check out this interesting post I found about this subject.

http://www.theattractionforums.com/nick ... dvice.html

Why (Most) Women Give Bad Dating Advice

It just doesn’t make sense. Common sense would say that women should be able to give good advice on getting beautiful women interested in you.

But they don’t.

(OK, I’m sure some do. Love Systems Bootcamps occasionally use female instructors or assistants, but these are women who are trained in powerful Love Systems techniques. They’re not random girls who think they know what to do just because they are women.)

Now, it’s not a conspiracy. 3 billion women aren’t plotting together to give you bad advice, even if it might sometimes feel that way.

And actually, the dating advice most women give isn’t bad. It’s just…misplaced.

Typical Female Dating Advice


Take some typical comments women make:

“Just be yourself�
“Be respectful of her boundaries �
“Be a gentleman�
“Take her to dinner and somewhere romantic�

These all make sense. IF SHE IS ALREADY ATTRACTED TO YOU. Think of the last time a girl was head-over-heels into you. Or one of your female friends obsessed with some guy. She would have loved it if he did any of those things, or sent her flowers “just because�.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that your #1 dating problem is not: “This girl is really into me and I like her too, so what do I do?�

If that were the case, a Love Systems bootcamp , where guys come to learn and practice the secrets of picking up beautiful and then actually do so at the nightclubs we go to, would take about 10 minutes, instead of 25-30 hours.

But there’s more to it than this.

People put themselves into situations when they are asked for advice. And people have an idea (often from movies and TV) about how dating and attraction should work. That gets in the way of a clear understanding of how things really work.

Copernicus and Gallileo would not have had a hard time convincing people that the Earth went around the Sun instead of vice versa – if it hadn’t been for the fact that for many hundreds of years, people were told to believe the opposite.

And this isn’t the only reason. Women don’t think about the guy they have no interest in coming up and seducing them. That’s one reason why women give arbitrary reasons to explain why they hook up with someone, or just say “it just happened� which means they don’t want to think or talk about it. If she doesn’t think of herself as an elite, beautiful, model-quality woman, she probably doesn’t think you “should� be dating such women. You’ll get a talk about meeting a nice girl through friends instead. If she enjoys your attention (e.g., if you’ve been interested in her in the past), she doesn’t have much reason to help transfer this attention to other women in a way that it would be successful.

And so on…

“But it’s not fair…�

The difference between how the world “should� be and how it actually is doesn’t just apply to women and dating. Every week on The Attraction Forums (the largest and by far the best dating advice forum for men), there’s some guy saying it’s not fair that men have to make the first move, that women “should� want the sweet guy who maybe doesn’t have much game, or that dating “should� be easier.

And…enter reality.

Dating and picking up beautiful women does not happen like in the movies. We’ve had a number of Hollywood screenwriters as clients on bootcamps or private training and they usually have no idea how to pick up beautiful women in the real world.

Put another way, I’d love to live in a world without car crashes. I could watch TV while driving. That’s maybe how things “should� be. But living in that imagery world would make me…dead.

You won’t die because you live in an imaginary world about dating and picking up beautiful women. You’ll just be alone.

But there is a choice. You can drop old and useless beliefs. You can adopt the idea that the world may not be perfect, but it’s where you live, so you may as well figure out how to navigate through it and meet your goals.

That’s part of the reason the Magic Bullets Handbook , is so controversial and why some female commentators hate it. It turns conventional wisdom on its ear. It’s morally neutral. It doesn’t care whether you want her for a one night stand or marriage. It just tells you how to make her want you.


Six Truths About Attraction Most Women Don’t Know*
*(or won’t tell you)

1 – Most beautiful women are sleeping with someone. Most also have men who they aren’t sleeping with, who take them on romantic dates. The guy she’s sleeping with, even if (especially if) she calls him an asshole or says she would never date him – he has a 100% better chance of making her his girlfriend than any of the random guys “Dating and Waiting�. You’ll have plenty of time for romantic dinners when she’s your long-term girlfriend.

2 – Most women like a man who can seduce. Who can lead her to bed smoothly and not awkwardly. Who can let her give token resistance (e.g., “I’m not going to go home with you�) and confidently make it happen anyway. No always means no, but men who know Love Systems are good at turning a no into a yes. Which is entirely an emotional process – change her mood, not her mind.

3 – Any emotion is better than no emotion. You have a much better chance of dating or sleeping with a woman who currently hates you than one is indifferent to you. Nice guys leave most women indifferent.

4 – Just because she has a boyfriend doesn’t mean she’s not looking to trade up. You
can make whatever ethical decisions you like, but don’t give yourself an excuse that she is “unavailable� because she has a boyfriend . (Longer blog post here)

5 – Attraction is transferrable. No woman in the world will agree with this unless you show it to her when it’s happening. So go try it for yourself. Go to a bar and get a girl super-attracted and into you and then disappear for half an hour. She’ll be all over someone else. This is one reason why it’s important to know how to deal with other men and obstacles – you don’t want them taking advantage of all of your hard work. (Or maybe, just maybe, you want to take advantage of theirs.

6 – Women’s sexual decision-making process is extremely arbitrary. A woman may say she’d never go home with a guy with a bar and that she never has (except for a couple of time that “don’t count�) and that may be an honest expression of her feelings at that time….but a few seconds after you get her phone number and convince yourself you’ve done the best you can, another guy can be leading her home. Ask a woman what kind of men she likes or what she’s looking for, and I’m sure you’ll get a list. That list will usually be things she thinks she should be attracted to – nice dresser, good sense of humor , good values, and so on. Some of it is even true. But that list will have NOTHING to do with who she feels attracted to on Saturday night.

There’s so much more I could say here – a lot of this is covered in the Relationship Management DVD Home Study Course –how to make her your girlfriend, how to date multiple women without lying, how to get and manage friends with benefits , how to know when she’s about to cheat, and much more. It’s hours of material with some of our best insights into Female Psychology .

Last word on the subject – to be a good doctor, you’d learn from other doctors, not their patients. To be a good guitarist, you’d study a musician, not a concert audience. And to become great with women, look at other guys like you who are great with women.

BellaRuth, Ahardy, what do you think of the "6 truths about attraction most women don't know" above?

Apparently, there are many articles about women giving bad dating advice. Have a look at these search results.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=e ... b076cb8dd1

I have been on here Winston, only six weeks, not as long as you mentioned. Check my join date and that's how long I have been here

Winston, from my perspective, those statements are generally true. Women are generally capricious. We are governed by moods, form one moment to the next. We don't always know what we want. But we are wired a certain way. We act according to programmings a lot of the time. There is natural programming from nature, and there is learnt programming from our culture. Years and years of the latter. There is the selfish woman and the fair woman. By fair, I mean she will not use you, nor step on you to advance her agenda.

Among the selfish women, is the man haters; the women who choose to act like men and are proud of it and teach others to do so, and a few women who have been so burnt in the past that she decides to hate all things male. And there are other women who are selfish with everyone, male or female.

The fair woman, is usually not loud, nor does she draw negative attention to herself. She does not get a kick crushing your ego. She rises when you rise, or she will disengage herself, if she finds that you and her are not meant to be.

To get a woman to date you, don't be nice to her. Women are drawn to status, to power, to money. Unfortunately, the last one is true also. If some women say they are not interested in money they are either high school girls with an infatuation, women in societies where the lack of money does not affect there security, or a few genuinely spiritual women, the rest are probably lying or deceiving themselves.

Status, power and money shows that the man will protect her, so she feels more ready to open her heart to him.

The lack of these three, and some women will still love you. But the women some men long for, might not be attracted to a man if he does not have these qualities. You may not get the woman with the desired traits you like. We pick the guys, it's not the other way around. It's the hard truth. We may let you believe that you are picking us, but we do all the picking. You just are led to believe you do.
We reject and we do it naturally, within the first moment of meeting a beta guy, we have already sized him up. Our defenses go automatically up. Some of us are polite and walk away, some ignore, and some are rude. I always choose 'polite'.
When in the presence of an alpha male, there is a physical response in my whole body, the air is charged electrically. I act different. I send out unconscious signals. I am also reacting to his signals. Everything is nonverbal, eye contact, our locked gaze, my lowering of the eyelids, blushing. I am totally female at that point. We are sharing something in secret that a whole room does not know about. We want each other, but we have to play by the rules. Often time, life happens and a few moments later, I'm out the door, let's say in a store, without ever getting to know him. But these unconscious interactions happen all the time.
With the beta male, I'm polite. He will have to woo me to get my attention, and he must not show any desire to kiss my feet. I will look down on him if he does that. For him to improve his prospect, he must go against everything in him that desires to please me. He must hold back. He has to show his dominance. He has to show that he could dominate me. And I will test him. It's as though I am programmed to test him.
Remember, Sleeping Beauty, Sir Gallant, the Prince, must overcome all obstacles to reach the sleeping princess. There are thick woods that has grown around the castle. Many have tried and dies trying to reach the princess. The princess belongs to the man gallant enough to cut through the overgrowth. Only after many obstacles he reaches the Princess.
Fairytales are just truths that have been with us over the ages, and put into stories, and this is no exception.
Any man can find a woman, and if she is worth it to you, you have to stop being nice to her and build your confidence up. You are the prize, but no women will tell you that. She has to earn you. There, that was hard to tell you my deep secret.

Interesting read ahardy57!


One thing however, from the information that you gave me, you're a girl from the west (i.e., America) and girls from the west like strong dominating men who don't "kiss their feet", as you stated. But you know why those type of western guys don't "kiss girls feet"? It's because they don't really care about them and they look at women as pure sex objects; but I digress.

The thing is, girls on the east are not like this. They are more open to men who "kiss their feet" and they are more open to men who are friendly and less dominating. I noticed this when I briefly was romantically involved with a woman who I met here in the states who was from Bulgaria. And then another woman from Ukraine.

Personally ahardy57, as a man, the feeling of wanting to please a woman, and "kiss her feet," is normal to me and I refuse to interact with a woman romantically who feels as if I'm some kind of chump for feeling that way. It's fine by me that women like you see that as a weakness. Really, we all want different things out of life, and I can respect that.

It just makes me wonder why are most of women like you on the west? I'm sure it has something to do with culture, and the harsh living conditions that you spoke on in regards to living in America. I mean, in that case, it seems perfectly logical to pick out the toughest male (so you think) to be at your side while living under such hellish conditions.