Does Taiwan belong to China? Will China ever invade Taiwan?

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Does Taiwan belong to China? Will China ever invade Taiwan?

Post by Winston »

Today one of the Chinese women I'm talking to asked me: "Do you think Taiwan is a separate country from China?"

I wasn't sure what to say, so I just gave the official line: "Taiwan has its own government. But it is not officially independent. It is considered a rebel province by China. But I have no interest in politics, since I'm a Libertarian, so I have no bias one way or the other."

I don't know much about the ancient history of Taiwan, but why is this so controversial? Why does there seem to be a gray area? Either Taiwan did belong to China before or it didn't right? It ought to be a simple matter of historical fact. What's the truth on the matter?

However, even if Taiwan belonged to China in the past, that doesn't mean that it can't separate or become independent now, like the American colonies did with England. Whether it should or not, or whether it's better or not, I guess, is complicated and a matter of opinion.

Any thoughts?

What are the facts and what are the gray areas on this issue?
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Re: Did Taiwan ever really belong to China?

Post by Repatriate »

Winston wrote:Today one of the Chinese women I'm talking to asked me: "Do you think Taiwan is a separate country from China?"

I wasn't sure what to say, so I just gave the official line: "Taiwan has its own government. But it is not officially independent. It is considered a rebel province by China. But I have no interest in politics, since I'm a Libertarian, so I have no bias one way or the other."

I don't know much about the ancient history of Taiwan, but why is this so controversial? Why does there seem to be a gray area? Either Taiwan did belong to China before or it didn't right? It ought to be a simple matter of historical fact. What's the truth on the matter?

However, even if Taiwan belonged to China in the past, that doesn't mean that it can't separate or become independent now, like the American colonies did with England. Whether it should or not, or whether it's better or not, I guess, is complicated and a matter of opinion.

Any thoughts?

What are the facts and what are the gray areas on this issue?
History is fluid and situations change based on the conceptual vision of the people who live there. If a country says it wants to be independent and organizes itself and challenges its position successfully then it has every right to break away or become independent. That's what the whole founding of the U.S. was about and many other nations.

Technically Taiwan never belonged to China. It was always considered a port island where many nations set up shop at different times to do business. It was known for high seas piracy and rebel Ming generals back in the 17th century, the most famous of which was Koxinga. The Dutch had a well known post there but got run off after a local conflict. The island's population during this time was a mix of Hokkienese, Teow Chew, and aboriginals.

There was the brief colonial period with Japan but that was a flash in the pan history wise.

Then modern day Taiwan was settled by mainland KMT who formed Taiwan as we know it. The mix become more heavily weighted towards wai sen ren but the identity now is still uniquely Taiwan.

I'd say Taiwan's historical claim for independence is very strong. It's had a longer independent identity than even some western european nations.
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Post by Winston »

But then what is China's argument for why Taiwan belongs to them? What do they teach in schools in China? What do their historians say?
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Post by Billy »

Today one of the Chinese women I'm talking to asked me: "Do you think Taiwan is a separate country from China?"

I wasn't sure what to say, so I just gave the official line
You should have changed the topic and switch to the ancient aliens.lol (sorry)

Or we should ask odbo, there must be something with the jews. lol (sorry)
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Post by Repatriate »

Winston wrote:But then what is China's argument for why Taiwan belongs to them? What do they teach in schools in China? What do their historians say?
China's argument is mostly propaganda they gloss over the last 400 years and start talking about 500-1000 years ago when Taiwan was nothing but a true backwater with little to no infrastructure populated by aboriginal tribes.

I've asked mainlanders about this and their history on Taiwan is usually pretty fuzzy. They bring up the "always part of China argument" but when you ask for details they tend to not be able to give specifics. They are pretty much parroting what their teachers said in school. It's mostly knee jerk nationalism/ethnocentrism. Ask some mainlanders sometime.

Most historians and sinologists avoid taking sides most of the time because it's politically inflammatory. However, everything i've read by anyone credible always mention the periods of independence Taiwan has always had in that region. Those are indisputable historical facts.
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Post by Repatriate »

Here are a few strong points for Taiwan's independence:

Taiwan has maintained a democratic political system and a Chinese ethnic identity that wasn't corrupted by Communism and the cultural revolution.

The culture on the mainland was changed significantly. Just look at the bastardized simplified version of Chinese that mainlanders write.

Taiwan's economy is still developed and comparatively prosperous with other developed nations. This was done independently through global capitalism.

Taiwan has a corruption index that is much better when compared with China. Why would you want to tie your system to a horribly corrupt one?
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Post by Billy »

Chinese argument:

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editori ... 2003219650
The current status of Taiwan is an occupied area under the effective control of the illegitimate Chinese government. According to international law regarding the succession of governments, there can be only one legitimate government per state, and the only legitimate Chinese government currently is the PRC government, therefore Taiwan belongs to China. In other words, the ROC is the reason that Taiwan belongs to China.

In conclusion, the only way Taiwan can achieve indepen-dence is to declare itself independent and to seek UN membership and recognition by other states.
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Post by Winston »

Repatriate wrote:
Winston wrote:But then what is China's argument for why Taiwan belongs to them? What do they teach in schools in China? What do their historians say?
China's argument is mostly propaganda they gloss over the last 400 years and start talking about 500-1000 years ago when Taiwan was nothing but a true backwater with little to no infrastructure populated by aboriginal tribes.

I've asked mainlanders about this and their history on Taiwan is usually pretty fuzzy. They bring up the "always part of China argument" but when you ask for details they tend to not be able to give specifics. They are pretty much parroting what their teachers said in school. It's mostly knee jerk nationalism/ethnocentrism. Ask some mainlanders sometime.

Most historians and sinologists avoid taking sides most of the time because it's politically inflammatory. However, everything i've read by anyone credible always mention the periods of independence Taiwan has always had in that region. Those are indisputable historical facts.
If that's so, and the Chinese government knows it is lying, then why doesn't it just give Taiwan up and leave it alone? It's such a small insignificant piece of land compared to China. Why would it care what happened to it? Why create unnecessary tension?
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Post by mercurymarch »

Winston wrote:
Repatriate wrote:
Winston wrote:But then what is China's argument for why Taiwan belongs to them? What do they teach in schools in China? What do their historians say?
China's argument is mostly propaganda they gloss over the last 400 years and start talking about 500-1000 years ago when Taiwan was nothing but a true backwater with little to no infrastructure populated by aboriginal tribes.

I've asked mainlanders about this and their history on Taiwan is usually pretty fuzzy. They bring up the "always part of China argument" but when you ask for details they tend to not be able to give specifics. They are pretty much parroting what their teachers said in school. It's mostly knee jerk nationalism/ethnocentrism. Ask some mainlanders sometime.

Most historians and sinologists avoid taking sides most of the time because it's politically inflammatory. However, everything i've read by anyone credible always mention the periods of independence Taiwan has always had in that region. Those are indisputable historical facts.
If that's so, and the Chinese government knows it is lying, then why doesn't it just give Taiwan up and leave it alone? It's such a small insignificant piece of land compared to China. Why would it care what happened to it? Why create unnecessary tension?
Politics, Winston. If the PRC gave up its claim on Taiwan, it would be admitting it was wrong. That is never going to happen. Mainland China is extremely nationalistic. China ate Tibet and it would already be in Taiwan if it wasn't for the U.S.

Also, Taiwan may have some strategic military value. You would have to talk to someone that knows more about this than I do, but if a war broke out between the U.S. and the PRC, I think Taiwan might be able to serve as a base for the U.S. to stage attacks.

In my opinion, Taiwan has an extremely good case for independence. They arguably have a stronger cultural identity than the Chinese, and their per capita GDP is incomparably higher. I think it is unlikely that China will be able to match Taiwan's per capita GDP in this century.

Taiwan's economic development may have slowed recently, but it is on par with countries like South Korea.

If the PRC got its way with Taiwan, Taiwan would end up just like Hong Kong is ending up: A puppet province slowly succumbing to censorship. Human rights would cease to be recognized and democracy would evaporate.
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Re: Did Taiwan ever really belong to China?

Post by Rock »

Repatriate wrote:
Winston wrote:Today one of the Chinese women I'm talking to asked me: "Do you think Taiwan is a separate country from China?"

I wasn't sure what to say, so I just gave the official line: "Taiwan has its own government. But it is not officially independent. It is considered a rebel province by China. But I have no interest in politics, since I'm a Libertarian, so I have no bias one way or the other."

I don't know much about the ancient history of Taiwan, but why is this so controversial? Why does there seem to be a gray area? Either Taiwan did belong to China before or it didn't right? It ought to be a simple matter of historical fact. What's the truth on the matter?

However, even if Taiwan belonged to China in the past, that doesn't mean that it can't separate or become independent now, like the American colonies did with England. Whether it should or not, or whether it's better or not, I guess, is complicated and a matter of opinion.

Any thoughts?

What are the facts and what are the gray areas on this issue?
History is fluid and situations change based on the conceptual vision of the people who live there. If a country says it wants to be independent and organizes itself and challenges its position successfully then it has every right to break away or become independent. That's what the whole founding of the U.S. was about and many other nations.

Technically Taiwan never belonged to China. It was always considered a port island where many nations set up shop at different times to do business. It was known for high seas piracy and rebel Ming generals back in the 17th century, the most famous of which was Koxinga. The Dutch had a well known post there but got run off after a local conflict. The island's population during this time was a mix of Hokkienese, Teow Chew, and aboriginals.

There was the brief colonial period with Japan but that was a flash in the pan history wise.

Then modern day Taiwan was settled by mainland KMT who formed Taiwan as we know it. The mix become more heavily weighted towards wai sen ren but the identity now is still uniquely Taiwan.

I'd say Taiwan's historical claim for independence is very strong. It's had a longer independent identity than even some western european nations.
1. But wouldn’t you say Japan did have a pretty strong influence on Taiwan? They controlled the island as a colony for 50 years through 1945 and created a relatively modern infrastructure and economy as a satellite of their own. Also, what do you make of the few year period after WWII before KMT came in 1949?

2. Yea, Taiwan is still effectively independent. But China really bullies it in the international arena as if it were a pariah state. Due to its size and power, dominant powers largely takes PRC side. Thus, Taiwan is in many ways shut-out from the world political community.

3. As to Winston’s question, why China cares so much, here are some of my thoughts as a foreigner and relative outsider. Consider that the issue dates back to a civil war between KMT and CCP. Both claimed to be the sole legitimate rulers of ‘China’ which they agreed included Taiwan. After 1949, KMT lost their final strongholds in mainland so retreated to Taiwan. From that period onwards, mainland was controlled by CCP and Taiwan by KMT (until evolving to democratic system in 1996). KMT’s stated plan was to eventually re-take mainland while CCP planned to take over Taiwan. US got involved by supporting and protecting Taiwan so the stalemate became the status quo over the years and decades to follow. Taiwan began its modern capitalist style economic development much earlier as an ally of US. Some 2-3 decades ago, Taiwan’s per capita GDP was over 30 times that of the mainland’s giving the tiny island a total economy well over half the size of that in the massive mainland. Successfully taking over Taiwan then would have provided China with a major boost in global power – economically and militarily. And it was easy to play the ethnic card that Taiwan, like China, is ‘Chinese’.

4. It’s interesting how things played-out. KMT loosened its grip and to China’s chagrin, allowed the island to move to a democratic system in 1996 strongly supported by large majority of local Taiwan citizens. And Taiwan had a few great years after that economically on the back of the global tech boom and its unique and key position in the supply chain. But China was a big part of that business model and it led to the last and perhaps most critical wave of capital flight and brain drain. Taiwan has had a very tough time in last 12 years with political gridlocks and relative stagnation while China has become recognized as the world’s next superpower. Today Taiwan’s economy is probably less than 10% the size of the mainland’s and that percentage continues to shrink. PRC, its ruling party, and majority of citizens will still insist that Taiwan belongs to it. Nationalism and political face are strongly tied to this issue even if Taiwan is so much less important to it than during heydays. I think status quo will continue to be path of lest resistance for both sides but improving cross straits relations slowly is probably in Taiwan’s best economic interest. And KMT pro-China incumbent recently won election. So as far as Chinese military threat towards ‘recovering’ Taiwan is concerned, I personally think it’s fallen to the negligible zone. China’s kinda already got Taiwan where it wants it and has a lot more important fish to fry.
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Re: Did Taiwan ever really belong to China?

Post by momopi »

Winston wrote:Today one of the Chinese women I'm talking to asked me: "Do you think Taiwan is a separate country from China?"
(Reactionary disclaimer: My father's side of family is from Manchuria)


1. Taiwan is de facto independent from PRC, and under the administration of ROC (Republic of China) since 1945.

2. Taiwan was a prefecture of Qing Empire (China) from 1683-1885, then made a Province from 1885-1895, before being ceded to the Empire of Japan from 1895-1945. The demographics of Taiwan in 1895 was estimated at 2.3 million ethnic Chinese and 200,000 natives.

3. The People's Republic of China (PRC) has never admistered Taiwan since its founding in 1949. For what it's worth, the ROC was a direct successor government to the Qing Empire, the PRC is not.


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Post by Winston »

Thanks for your responses.

A few questions:

1. If Taiwan never really belonged to China, then why does it need to "declare independence"? Something in basic logic doesn't seem to add up about that. And why doesn't the US government recognize Taiwan as independent if it's always been independent?

2. I'm sure the history books in China say that Taiwan belonged to China before, while the history books in Taiwan say otherwise. How do you know which history books are correct and which are lying? What do Western history books say?

3. Do you think this topic may get this site banned from China? If so, then I can't really live there, because I won't be able to operate this site from there.

4. Speaking of sites banned in China, it doesn't seem consistent. Some people there say that they can access this site, while others don't seem to be able to access any foreign sites at all. Are there different censorship operations in different regions in China? How does it work? Who decides which sites to censor? Does a person or computer make the decision? And can banned sites appeal their censorship in China? What if someone tries to use http://www.hidemyass.com in China?

Thanks for all your answers.
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Post by odbo »

China should be part of Taiwan, instead Communist (Jewish run) "China" wants to swallow up Taiwan. Get it?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4386405906


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Re: Did Taiwan ever really belong to China?

Post by Repatriate »

Rock wrote: 1. But wouldn’t you say Japan did have a pretty strong influence on Taiwan? They controlled the island as a colony for 50 years through 1945 and created a relatively modern infrastructure and economy as a satellite of their own. Also, what do you make of the few year period after WWII before KMT came in 1949?
Yes and No.

Yes, because Japan did try to integrate Taiwan into the "home islands" and create a new Japanese identity with Taiwanese. The individuals from that era were fairly pro-Japan because unlike Japan's other territories they implemented a system of soft cultural and political integration. Taiwan did adopt a lot including dress, mannerism, and food culture.

No, because most of the elderly who remember that era are long dead and the unique Taiwanese-Japanese created cultural identity died along with them. There are superficial aspects of Japan that many Taiwanese people admire though and from the marriage statistics obviously there are more international marriages between TW women and Japanese men than any other foreign nationality.

Not long after the revolutionary war the mainland KMT "wai-sen-ren" came into Taiwan and pretty much remade the Taiwanese "identity" once again and became the true power brokers of the island nation. Chiang Kai Shek initiated martial law and purged a lot of the hardcore Taiwanese-Japanese elite and secret Communist sympathizers. This was a pretty bloody era and the holdouts of the "foreign" cultural groups were pretty much shot in the forest somewhere. This era is still remembered and has always been a point of contention between Taiwanese "natives" and wai-sen-ren but much less now than in the past as far as I know. A lot of innocent people were also "disappeared" during this time. My mom said that it wasn't uncommon to get taken away in the middle of night for writing letters that were suspect.
2. Yea, Taiwan is still effectively independent. But China really bullies it in the international arena as if it were a pariah state. Due to its size and power, dominant powers largely takes PRC side. Thus, Taiwan is in many ways shut-out from the world political community.
It's done mainly to appease China but if you look at the TW passport it's really quite good. TW can travel visa-free to most western countries worth mentioning (except the U.S. but even that process is really easy.) So even though TW isn't "recognized" the benefits are still there and TW as a nation still maintains high level diplomatic relationships behind the scenes.
Today Taiwan’s economy is probably less than 10% the size of the mainland’s and that percentage continues to shrink. PRC, its ruling party, and majority of citizens will still insist that Taiwan belongs to it. Nationalism and political face are strongly tied to this issue even if Taiwan is so much less important to it than during heydays. I think status quo will continue to be path of lest resistance for both sides but improving cross straits relations slowly is probably in Taiwan’s best economic interest.
Yeah things will eventually come full circle. Taiwan will be back to becoming the mostly irrelevant shipping port/province.

Most of Taiwan's business elite couldn't give two shits either way. If you don't have the business elite behind you then the whole "independence" issue as pushed by the DPP party is a total unrealistic lost cause. The industrialists will not support such a move. Anyhow, lot of them immediately jumped ship when China welcomed them with open arms and made a shitload of money across the strait as freshly minted P.R.C. dual citizens.

I still believe Taiwan has a real good claim for independence but it's totally unrealistic to officially declare it and go to war over it. I really doubt if push came to shove very many TW would willingly pick up a gun to fight for that. The DPP like to blow hot air about this all the time though.
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Post by momopi »

Winston wrote:Thanks for your responses.
A few questions:
1. If Taiwan never really belonged to China, then why does it need to "declare independence"? Something in basic logic doesn't seem to add up about that. And why doesn't the US government recognize Taiwan as independent if it's always been independent?
2. I'm sure the history books in China say that Taiwan belonged to China before, while the history books in Taiwan say otherwise. How do you know which history books are correct and which are lying? What do Western history books say?
3. Do you think this topic may get this site banned from China? If so, then I can't really live there, because I won't be able to operate this site from there.
4. Speaking of sites banned in China, it doesn't seem consistent. Some people there say that they can access this site, while others don't seem to be able to access any foreign sites at all. Are there different censorship operations in different regions in China? How does it work? Who decides which sites to censor? Does a person or computer make the decision? And can banned sites appeal their censorship in China? What if someone tries to use http://www.hidemyass.com in China?
Thanks for all your answers.

1. You're in Taiwan. Go ask a Taiwanese nationalist.

2. Taiwan was part of the Qing Empire from 1683-1895. What history or text book in Taiwan claims that Taiwan was never a part of Qing Empire?
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