Carnism - The Immorality of Eating Meat

[MrMan]

@Winston @MrMan is not arguing in good faith he is making obviously stupid arguments as a form of mockery. This is the tactic of a person who has no rational argument.

Animals eat animal flesh. Why shouldn't we be able to? Why would it be wrong to eat animal flesh but not wrong to eat vegetables?

People in Rwanda committed genocide why shouldn’t we be able to? Also you have a choice whether to eat meat or not, lions don’t have a choice.

Because vegetables don’t have a brain, self awareness, or pain receptors. They are alive in the same way that a brain dead person is. If you are just going to repeat mindless talking points that we have all heard a million times and not make any substantive argument then I suggest you stop replying.

You have not given me any reason to resort to vegetarianism. Animals are not people, too. There are lower life forms than we are-- and different life forms. We have eye-teeth and molars, and we need protein.

[Outcast9428]

@Winston @MrMan is not arguing in good faith he is making obviously stupid arguments as a form of mockery. This is the tactic of a person who has no rational argument.

Animals eat animal flesh. Why shouldn't we be able to? Why would it be wrong to eat animal flesh but not wrong to eat vegetables?

People in Rwanda committed genocide why shouldn’t we be able to? Also you have a choice whether to eat meat or not, lions don’t have a choice.

Because vegetables don’t have a brain, self awareness, or pain receptors. They are alive in the same way that a brain dead person is. If you are just going to repeat mindless talking points that we have all heard a million times and not make any substantive argument then I suggest you stop replying.

You have not given me any reason to resort to vegetarianism. Animals are not people, too. There are lower life forms than we are-- and different life forms. We have eye-teeth and molars, and we need protein.

Because animals feel pain, suffering, and distress. That's literally all you need to know. Acting as if you need more of a reason then that just shows how selfish you are. When I was young and learned we were slaughtering animals for the sake of our taste buds, I immediately stopped eating meat. It was just common sense. How the f**k is it okay to kill sentient creatures for your taste buds? Meat eaters have no rational arguments, its always crap like "but what about the plants!" "Lions eat it so we can too!" "But where are you getting your protein!" "But muh b12 vitamins!" Once they've exhausted every other stupid argument that gets easily dispelled they just say "animals are inferior and if we want to we have a right to kill them!" Meat eaters just mock people who don't participate in this collective act of cruelty because they can't stand being reminded of their own selfish behavior. Stop pretending you need to eat meat, like you'd die if you didn't eat meat, I haven't eaten any meat in 18 years and I'm definitely healthier then the average American is. I get like 60 grams of protein minimum and 90 on a normal day. I've never had a cavity in my life. I'm doing fine. How are you doing? Are you overweight? Its probably because of the meat, cause meat eaters are twice as likely to be fat as vegetarians are.

I hope proud meat eaters will be ready to accept their fate is aliens ever invade us someday, decide we are a barbaric species and start harvesting human bodies for meat. They're not going to listen to any of that "But muh human superiority" crap. After the way we've treated all the less intelligent sentients on this Earth, quite frankly, humans deserve it.

[MrMan]

Outcast9428,

If you don't want to eat meat for health reasons or out of concern for animals, that is fine with me. I do not think we should torture animals to extract meat from them, but bleed them in as painless a way possible. Let me ask you, though, why do you think it is wrong to cause pain to an animal, or human, for that matter? Some people think we are all just electrons, protons, and neutrons floating around and all our experiences are chemical reactions, so why would it matter if that is the case? It is a part of world view.

Part of my world view is influenced by the idea that God gave vegetables, then animal flesh, for mankind to eat.

Thinking human beings deserved to be eaten for eating meat is not very a helpful mindset. Who are humans supposed to be transgressing against in this scenario?

If humans deserve to be eaten by aliens for eating meat, if humans eat carnivore animals, wouldn't we be justified in doing so-- getting back at them for eating the other critters?

As far as the B-12 vitamin goes, until modern times, that could not be synthesized, and they use bacteria to do it. Are you opposed to eating or using the by-products of bacteria that have some animal-like characteristics?

Can you also say there is no chance of plantlife--or networks of plant life-- having some sort of intelligence in the way they interact with each other?

[Outcast9428]

Outcast9428,

If you don't want to eat meat for health reasons or out of concern for animals, that is fine with me. I do not think we should torture animals to extract meat from them, but bleed them in as painless a way possible. Let me ask you, though, why do you think it is wrong to cause pain to an animal, or human, for that matter? Some people think we are all just electrons, protons, and neutrons floating around and all our experiences are chemical reactions, so why would it matter if that is the case? It is a part of world view.

Part of my world view is influenced by the idea that God gave vegetables, then animal flesh, for mankind to eat.

Thinking human beings deserved to be eaten for eating meat is not very a helpful mindset. Who are humans supposed to be transgressing against in this scenario?

If humans deserve to be eaten by aliens for eating meat, if humans eat carnivore animals, wouldn't we be justified in doing so-- getting back at them for eating the other critters?

As far as the B-12 vitamin goes, until modern times, that could not be synthesized, and they use bacteria to do it. Are you opposed to eating or using the by-products of bacteria that have some animal-like characteristics?

Can you also say there is no chance of plantlife--or networks of plant life-- having some sort of intelligence in the way they interact with each other?

If you are looking for a religious argument, then this guy below does a fantastic job of making both a Christian and secular argument for vegetarianism/veganism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hgxuM8n1Tk

As far as the biblical passages that describe people eating meat. I think that people need to consider the time period. They lived in a time when food was scarce, and famines could and did kill people on a regular basis. In such an environment, most people could not afford to be picky about their dieting choices. I do think, however, that when a people become more prosperous, that we are obligated to take on more moral responsibility then people in dire circumstances do. So given that we live in an age where famine, in the developed world at least, does not exist anymore, then what justification do we have for continuing to eat animals? As the man in the video mentioned, in God's ideal world, people and other animals only eat plants.

Perhaps the entire struggle of human civilization is God trying to figure out if humanity deserves prosperity and abundance. Perhaps, God wants to give us happiness and abundance but knows that because of our sinful nature that most human beings cannot handle prosperity and abundance without becoming gluttonous and selfish. Right now, 21st century America and Europe is definitely proving God right in that we have horribly abused our prosperity. I think we are getting closer and closer every day to losing our prosperity as God loses hope in Western civilization. He may eventually come to see that destroying Western civilization is the only way to save it from ourselves.

But what if humans in the West could show God that we are in-fact worthy of prosperity? What if we found a way to reverse our sinful nature? What if we proved that prosperity could make us into better people instead of worse people? I think the first step to doing that would be to make eating meat a thing of the past. Back when food was scarce, we had to do it, but now that we are prosperous we no longer need to. Right now, America with its horrendous rates of obesity is showing God that prosperity made us disgustingly gluttonous. If we wish to overcome that sin, then the most important step we need to take is towards ending our consumption of meat.

As far as why I think its immoral to cause pain to people and animals. Shouldn't that be obvious? You should never harm an innocent creature who has done nothing to deserve it. Harming other creatures is only justified when you absolutely have to and there is no other choice.

[Winston]

@Winston @MrMan is not arguing in good faith he is making obviously stupid arguments as a form of mockery. This is the tactic of a person who has no rational argument.

Animals eat animal flesh. Why shouldn't we be able to? Why would it be wrong to eat animal flesh but not wrong to eat vegetables?

They have no choice and are instinct driven. We do. So karma is harsher on us than on the animals.

Btw, why do most Christians have a bias against vegetarianism? If you think about it, Genesis says that before the Fall, the animals were all friendly and did not eat each other. This suggests that Adam and Eve were originally meant to be vegetarian. Also, many spiritual groups say that Jesus was a member of the Essenes, a Gnostic group. The Essenes were vegetarian, so Jesus may have been too. The reason Jesus was associated with fish was because he represented the Age of Pisces, which all mystery school adepts understand, but not the masses like you. Peta.org also claims that Jesus was vegetarian. Also becoming vegetarian made my head clearer and smarter. Before that I could not write anything and my mind was a blank. I had no ideas and no ability to write. I know that correlation is not causation, but it could be possible that being vegetarian elevated my consciousness and creativity. Many artists also say that being vegetarian enhanced their creativity and connection to higher frequencies so that their creative energies flowed through them better.

Even if eating meat is not wrong and is justified, it still LOWERS your consciousness. That's what you don't get. Because you are lower consciousness of course. lol. No offense.

[Winston]

@Winston @MrMan is not arguing in good faith he is making obviously stupid arguments as a form of mockery. This is the tactic of a person who has no rational argument.

Animals eat animal flesh. Why shouldn't we be able to? Why would it be wrong to eat animal flesh but not wrong to eat vegetables?

If you want to stop the current mass-extinction picking up speed we need to go vegetarian to shut it down. I have my meat intake down to once a day and around 8 ounces or less and no sea-food.

Yes that's possible, because non-violent people raise their consciousness and hence receive more divine protection than meat eaters do. Look up the case of Desmond Doss in WW2. He made a vow of non-violence and so during the Battle of Iwo Jima, while his comrades were being killed, he was divinely protected and the Japanese always avoided killing him somehow, or they were prevented from seeing him by some little coincidence. That's karma, if you kill then you will be killed, if you take a vow of non-violence then the universe protects you. They made a movie about him in 2017 called "Hacksaw Ridge". It's really good if you wanna see it. And it illustrates what I mean.

[Winston]

@Winston @MrMan is not arguing in good faith he is making obviously stupid arguments as a form of mockery. This is the tactic of a person who has no rational argument.

Animals eat animal flesh. Why shouldn't we be able to? Why would it be wrong to eat animal flesh but not wrong to eat vegetables?

People in Rwanda committed genocide why shouldn’t we be able to? Also you have a choice whether to eat meat or not, lions don’t have a choice.

Because vegetables don’t have a brain, self awareness, or pain receptors. They are alive in the same way that a brain dead person is. If you are just going to repeat mindless talking points that we have all heard a million times and not make any substantive argument then I suggest you stop replying.

You have not given me any reason to resort to vegetarianism. Animals are not people, too. There are lower life forms than we are-- and different life forms. We have eye-teeth and molars, and we need protein.

But ancient people, who were wiser than modern Americans, believed that everything was conscious, even trees and rocks, and should be revered and honored. Nature was sacred. Christianity destroyed all that. Natural religions were replaced with artificial religions. You don't seem to understand that. You've lost the original wisdom that the ancients had, including Native Americans. Yes ancients ate meat and hunted, but only out of necessity, never for sport. They always honored the prey they caught and thanked it. Do Americans do that?

[Winston]

Arguments for eating meat and against vegetarianism debunked. See below.

[Moretorque]

@Winston @MrMan is not arguing in good faith he is making obviously stupid arguments as a form of mockery. This is the tactic of a person who has no rational argument.

Animals eat animal flesh. Why shouldn't we be able to? Why would it be wrong to eat animal flesh but not wrong to eat vegetables?

If you want to stop the current mass-extinction picking up speed we need to go vegetarian to shut it down. I have my meat intake down to once a day and around 8 ounces or less and no sea-food.

Yes that's possible, because non-violent people raise their consciousness and hence receive more divine protection than meat eaters do. Look up the case of Desmond Doss in WW2. He made a vow of non-violence and so during the Battle of Iwo Jima, while his comrades were being killed, he was divinely protected and the Japanese always avoided killing him somehow, or they were prevented from seeing him by some little coincidence. That's karma, if you kill then you will be killed, if you take a vow of non-violence then the universe protects you. They made a movie about him in 2017 called "Hacksaw Ridge". It's really good if you wanna see it. And it illustrates what I mean.

I don't understand what that has to do with the point I am making, we are destroying the eco by over eating all the critters. No respect for the other entities here and it has destroyed the planet for future generations by being such swine.

[MrMan]

@Winston @MrMan is not arguing in good faith he is making obviously stupid arguments as a form of mockery. This is the tactic of a person who has no rational argument.

Animals eat animal flesh. Why shouldn't we be able to? Why would it be wrong to eat animal flesh but not wrong to eat vegetables?

People in Rwanda committed genocide why shouldn’t we be able to? Also you have a choice whether to eat meat or not, lions don’t have a choice.

Because vegetables don’t have a brain, self awareness, or pain receptors. They are alive in the same way that a brain dead person is. If you are just going to repeat mindless talking points that we have all heard a million times and not make any substantive argument then I suggest you stop replying.

You have not given me any reason to resort to vegetarianism. Animals are not people, too. There are lower life forms than we are-- and different life forms. We have eye-teeth and molars, and we need protein.

But ancient people, who were wiser than modern Americans, believed that everything was conscious, even trees and rocks, and should be revered and honored. Nature was sacred.

Why would I think ancient animists were wise?

Don Richardson presented the case that the original religion was monotheistic, or at least a belief in the most high God, and then other gods were added on to their practices. There are many cultures that retained belief in the most high God. Anyway, this is an argument against the idea of animism as the original belief.

Christianity destroyed all that. Natural religions were replaced with artificial religions.

'Natural' versus 'artificial' is false dichotomy in your rhetoric.

You don't seem to understand that. You've lost the original wisdom that the ancients had, including Native Americans. Yes ancients ate meat and hunted, but only out of necessity, never for sport.

So you think no ancient people every hunted meat for sport. It's hard to disprove, or prove, such an idea.

They always honored the prey they caught and thanked it. Do Americans do that?

That does not make sense, especially if the animal is dead. What good is it to thank the animal? God created the animals and provided the meat. We should thank God. Jews traditionally bless God before slaughtering animals.

[MrMan]

[MrMan]

Animals eat animal flesh. Why shouldn't we be able to? Why would it be wrong to eat animal flesh but not wrong to eat vegetables?

They have no choice and are instinct driven. We do. So karma is harsher on us than on the animals.

Btw, why do most Christians have a bias against vegetarianism? If you think about it, Genesis says that before the Fall, the animals were all friendly and did not eat each other.

No it doesn't.

This suggests that Adam and Eve were originally meant to be vegetarian.

Pre-flood, man was given plants to eat. After the flood, Noah was given animals to eat.

Also, many spiritual groups say that Jesus was a member of the Essenes, a Gnostic group.

Since Jesus was not a descendant of Aaron, that is a very odd theory. Can you name a credible scholar who believes this? Even an 'out there' quack who makes YouTube videos? And how could the Essenes be classified as a 'Gnostic' group. They were Jewish priests who believed the mainstream priestly establishment was off base, with the wrong calendar, etc.

The Essenes were vegetarian, so Jesus may have been too.

I saw a blog claimed this. What is the evidence for strict vegetarianism. Priests, or certain priests were given meat to eat in the Torah. Vegetarianism would not have worked well for them if they had been on duty in the temple. But there were lots of other priests to fulfill duties by that time.

Jesus ate fish. He probably ate Lamb at Passover like other Torah-observant Jews did in the Holy Land because the Old Testament taught it.

The reason Jesus was associated with fish was because he represented the Age of Pisces, which all mystery school adepts understand, but not the masses like you.

Jesus is Jewish. He grew up in Hebrew culture, not under some California New Age guru.

Peta.org also claims that Jesus was vegetarian.

All the more reason to think of them as messed up in their thinking.

Also becoming vegetarian made my head clearer and smarter.

Based on your religious posts....maybe you should eat more vegetables.

Before that I could not write anything and my mind was a blank. I had no ideas and no ability to write.

Too much of a good thing can be bad for you. If you had too much bad cholesterol or something else that clogged blood flow in your system, that could effect your thinking. Some people may benefit from cutting back on meat or cutting it out of their diet for a time.

I know that correlation is not causation, but it could be possible that being vegetarian elevated my consciousness and creativity. Many artists also say that being vegetarian enhanced their creativity and connection to higher frequencies so that their creative energies flowed through them better.

Even if eating meat is not wrong and is justified, it still LOWERS your consciousness. That's what you don't get. Because you are lower consciousness of course. lol. No offense.

You see certain ideas as evidence of higher consciousness that I see as a bunch of bunk. So if someone spouts a bunch of bunk, you think they are more conscious. Let's consider creativity that we can observe.

I notice there has been plenty of creativity, especially of the technological kind, that have come out of heavy meat-eating countries. Germans eat meat. In the 1800's there were all those breakthroughs in chemistry with coal, making purple out of coal, and later making a diesel substitute out of coal. Americans eat a lot of meat. Benjamin Franklin ate meat, and he really liked turkey. He was creative and smart. He invented the Franklin stove, bi-focals, and the glass armonica (musical instrument). Light bulbs, statistical formulas, elevators, automobiles, and a lot of other inventions have come from heavy meat eating countries.

India has made some historical contributions in math and stuff. They also have some meat-eating regions in the north. Can you think of any inventions out of India? How many vegetarian inventors do you know of? I wouldn't say a vegetarian cannot be an inventor, but I do not think there is any positive correlation with vegetarianism.

[Outcast9428]

Damn you proud meat eaters love that video. Third time I’ve seen it. You really love videos that tell you it’s okay to never question the moral repulsiveness of eating meat and instead act as if vegetarians’ moral judgment of it is akin to judging somebody over their choice of fashion. It really is pathetic.

[MrMan]

. You really love videos that tell you it’s okay to never question the moral repulsiveness of eating meat and instead act as if vegetarians’ moral judgment of it is akin to judging somebody over their choice of fashion. It really is pathetic.

The judgy type vegetarians do judge people over fashion-- leather shoes and jackets and stuff.

I have a nephew who went vegetarian. He probably still is. He ordered a vegetarian sandwich and somehow got the wrong sandwich by mistake. Oh maaaaannnn, that chicken tasted good. Our taste buds are designed to respond to eating meat.

Animals do not have the same spiritual component that humans do. They are a lower order of being. We should not try to torment animals. But some of them do make a good food source. We should slaughter them in the most painless way to get the job done right. They are going to die some day anyway. Quick slaughter is probably less painful than dying from animal arthritis. I don't think of humans that way, because we are, again, higher creatures. Humans are also my species, my people.

I used to visit a homeless shelter where I went to a Bible study. While I was at the shelter once, I spoke with a man who a psychologist or counselor considered to have sociopathic tendencies. He told about a brutal fight, and how he said if he could push a button and wipe out all the people on the earth and not the animals, he would push it. The psychiatrist did not think he could hold him based on that. But that does remind me of the warped thinking of ___some___ vegetarians I have encountered who have their ideas of morality out of whack. Your aliens eating people comment reminded me of that.

Slaughtering a cow or a chicken for food is not the same as murdering a human being. Not all vegetarians think like that. Some are chill about it and don't eat meat for personal reasons.

Do you slap mosquitos that bite you or would you use pesticides if fire ants or poisonous spiders were infesting your apartment?

[flowerthief00]

"What about the plants?" is never worthy of being taken as more than a joke argument. If carnivores cared about plants seriously they would have surely stopped consuming animals. Because who is responsible for more plant deaths? Clearly, carnivores are. What do they think all those animals are being fed to make them so fat?

Nutrition comes from plants and one way or another you must cause the death of plants in order to live. But how you go about doing that makes tremendous difference, to them, to yourself, to the environment. You can eat them directly. Or you can filter the nutrients through the tortured body of another creature with all the toxins that come with that. The former is efficient, healthy, ethical. The latter is inefficient, unhealthy, and necessitates captivity and slaughter of your fellow sentient beings on earth who (unlike plants where it is more speculative) we know very well are capable of experiencing fear and pain much the same as humans do.

That "What about the plants?" is a refrain so frequently heard I chock up to the utterly difficult task of reaching for arguments to justify knowingly choosing inefficiency and cruelty by those who have made up their mind that they were going to keep doing that anyway.