Are loners more sane and authentic than popular people?

[Winston]

I was thinking, could it be that people who are "loners" in the western world are not people with no social skills at all, but in fact genuinely sane people who will not (or cannot) act with the fakeness required to fit into groups? Could it be that they have found a deep inner authenticity inside that they don't want to compromise because they are on such a different frequency, that for them to conform to bullshit and "go through the motions" that it takes to get along in groups and crowds is too taxing?

Could that be the truth? What do you think?

Also, have you ever met a popular person with many friends among mainstream people, who told the truth like it is with no BS, no political correctness and no fakeness?

[Winston]

Hi all,
I was wondering, when you get invited to parties, do any of you find it a stressful experience that you'd rather avoid? I mean it's like part of you wants to go to try to have fun, but another part of you doesn't want to go cause you know it will be a fake stressful experience, for the following reasons:

- You know you won't get any intellectual or soulful stimulation out of it, so you'd rather just stay home and read a good book or watch a documentary in your subject of interests, cause you know you will enjoy that at least. And while you know it's "uncool" to think that way, you can't help it cause it's the truth. You just don't fit in and know you will not enjoy the party, based on your past experiences (not attitude).

- And furthermore, it can be ego deflating when you are around people who are "vibrationally incompatible" with you (as David Icke would put it) because you will NOT feel validated at all, but INvalidated to the point where you can't wait to go home and find something that makes you feel validated again (like this forum for instance).

Any of you ever feel that way?

The truth is, when you are around people who are so "vibrationally different" from you, even making small talk and saying hi feel sooooooooooo awkward! Why is that?

- Besides the fakeness, if you are really intelligent or intellectual, you have to hide it around people at parties, and instead pretend that you are stupid, funny and cool like everyone else. Doing so feels like a lowering of dignity and oneself.

- Interacting with fake or dumb people is not intellectually stimulating. It feels like you are trying to be something you're not. Your inner self prefers doing something else, like reading a good book or watching a fascinating thought provoking documentary instead. You know this is "uncool" but you can't help it cause it's the truth.

- At a party, people usually break into subgroups. If you aren't in a subgroup but by yourself, you will look like a loser. So you feel PRESSURE to try to join one of the subgroups or gather with them. And if you don't connect with anyone there or if people don't talk to you, you feel compelled to try to force your way in somewhere, while looking like you're socializing and having a good time. So you try to join one of the subgroups and pretend to laugh and smile when you have no real interest in what they are saying. It's a lot of unnatural pressure.


So eventually, to avoid all the above, your subconscious mind makes you feel too lazy to go, and you start making excuses not to go, and you usually end up not going.

But you can't tell anyone the true reasons for not going or it'll make you look like a loser with an attitude problem.

Have any of you gone through this process?

It has nothing to do with not being social or fun. It's about you avoiding what you KNOW will be a stressful experience that will leave you frustrated as you try to befriend others you have nothing in common with, or try to pick up a girl/guy you have no chance with, etc. which will ultimately leave you deflated as you go back home, 95 percent of the time at least.

Simply put, you will be expending energy and time for a negative result, so you prefer to avoid it altogether. But you can't be honest about these reasons, or it'll make you look like a loser. Sucks huh?

[Enishi]

While it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be, I go through something similar whenever I go to clubs. The whole affair feels totally unnatural to me and the thought that I have to copy the mannerisms of the loud-mouthed male braggarts who frequent such venues just to get female attention disgusts me.

I tend to do much better at house parties where I know the hosts and some of their friends.

[Winston]

Zen Teacher Alan Watts talks about hermits and conformity to society. He doesn't try to argue or prove anything. All he does is describe the nature of what IS.

[momopi]

During the Victoria era, only a small % of the population were upper middle class and upper class, who could afford the leisure of parties. There were specific etiquettes that had to be followed. The topics of discussion were limited to prevent people from getting into heated debates in public (on politics, people do not agree to disagree) that might end in a sword or pistol duel on the lawn. The upper class gentry must maintain his gentlement image in public and act reserved. More serious discussions occured when men retired to the privacy of a cigar room, where they could disagree over a variety of topics without losing face in public.

In America, we tried to imitate the Europeans of the time, but on a much smaller budget. One example is the homes built with false fronts. Victorian architecture were elaborate, romantic, and rich. Houses were large, the bigger the better to show off your estate's wealth. Americans were poor-er and didn't have the European "old money", so our pretenders built homes with false (fake) fronts to make it look like we're richer than we really are. Instead of a real mansion, we built McMansions with impressive looking fronts and grand entrances, but the house itself had small dingy rooms. Furniture were for looks and not function. This was an age of conspicuous consumption, like US in 2002-2006. Look at recently built homes in the US with faux Tuscan architecture and fake fire place.

For the upper class, girls were raised to be virgins and sexually ignorant. "Pretty, young, and innocent" was the desirable image. Girls were also raised to not have an opinion in public. She may be well educated, but at parties where she is meeting potential suitors, she must refrain from expressing strong opinions on most subjects. Being unrestrained and speaking your mind was considered uneducated low-class boorish behavior, on same level as speaking while you're eating or rudely interrupting someone while they're speaking. Heck, if I didn't think before I speak, and someone wanted to discuss Somalia, I'd probably reply "napalm the f*ckers".

Anyways, after the Victorian era upper class girl is married, she did not work and had maids, nannies, and a governess to look after household choirs and child raising. In public she is expected to be her husband's perfect accessory, expressing no opinions of her own except in support of her husband. If she had disagreements with him, she would only speak of it to him in private.

At this point, I'd like to point out that this Victorian polite behavior was for a small % of the society as a whole. The vast majority of the people were lower class and did not attend parties or lived in mansions, or even fake mansions, unless if they were servants. Lower class women worked on farms, in domestic service, textile industry, seamstresses, shoe factories, washing/laundry, and so on. Wages were low and upper mobility is very limited. Those who can't make ends meet sold their bodies in prostitution in the cities, much like Thai girls from Isan today. The low class people in Victorian era were boorish, less reserved, spoke their mind ("I want this"), rude, and their virginity was de-valued.

Much of our social etiquette today at formal parties follow the expectations from Victorian era. You're expected to keep your topics of discussions lite and non-offensive. Serious, in-depth discussions are reserved for when the men retired to the wine cellar, or in less-affluent McMansions, the loft "man cave' with pool table furnishing or home theater. People who want to engage in serious, in-depth discussions on initial meeting is acceptable only in specific settings, otherwise it's considered socially inept as many people are simply not interested in whatever you're advocating. i.e. if 2 vegetarians go out on their first date and wish to discuss vegan vitamines, that's perfectly acceptable. But to do so at a party full of non-vegetarians is dumb.

People have all kinds of hobbies and interests. Your own hobby and areas of interest is only a small area in the wide spectrum. To expect everyone at a party to be interested in your own narrow area of interests is unrealistic. If I attend a party today and want to discuss the latest manga that I'm reading, I wouldn't expect most of the people to be manga fans to begin with. And if you wish to discuss socio-political issues, you must get invited to the cigar room (or equivalent, or in a relevant sub-group) first. If you wish to run against established etiquette, you won't be invited to the next party.

While you may find loud and rude alpha-male wanna be's and bitches at parties today, it's also recognized that these people are obnoxious and conduct themselves poorly.

[momopi]

Making polite talk is part of established social etiquette. In many cultures it's considered rude for a gentlemen to get right to the point, without engaging in polite conversation first. Those who are direct are seen as uncouth, lacking in good manners/refinement, impatient, low-class, and childish ("I want, I want"). Those who were not raised (or made the choice to reject) with proper social etiquette find it difficult to make small talk for the sake of talking. Doing so bring them an acute sense of discomfort, and they don't associate it as being part of the socialization process. From their perspective, proper social etiquette is constraining and bothersome, they cannot go up to a girl and just say "I like you", instead, they're made to follow some elaborate courtship process. And when they find a place where a man can simply say "I like you" to a girl, they often find themselves surrounded by people of lower socio-economic status.

Social etiquette, like any other behavior, is reinforced with rewards & punishments. If you behave in a desirable way (politeness), people will respond positively, versus if you behave rudely, people will ostracize you. In some cases the punishment can be fatal. Why are the Japanese so polite? Because in the old days, if you insulted the wrong person, you either get killed or have to commit suicide. This is how cultures evolve and the resulting keigo speech (teineigo, sonkeigo, kensongo) are its products. It'd be silly for us to label polite small talk in America as fakery, while praising Japanese polite speech as part of their cultural heritage.

On the other hand, We have our double standards, where a rude, direct, and brash person who is successful enjoys positive attention, versus an unsuccessful person would be looked down upon. Americans are also guilty of poorly imitated upper class trappings:

Faking it in Victorian America, 1855: (faux fronts, possible fake chimmy)




Faking it in America, 2010: (faux Tuscany style false front)




Fake gas-powered fireplace, for looks (has no heating value):

[E_Irizarry]

Also, have you ever met a popular person with many friends among mainstream people, who told the truth like it is with no BS, no political correctness and no fakeness?

Hell to the f**k no. Enimem is the closest thing whom I have met.

[Winston]

Here is an interesting response to my question from the David Icke forum:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthre ... 908&page=2

Couldn't agree more mate. Mindless chit-chat bores me to tears.

Good friends and family is a wonderful gift, but too many friends will drain, distract and heavily condition us.

If the relationships in our lives bring us joy, then that's wonderful, but if they stress us out, why put ourselves through that, nobody is under any obligation to tolerate any stress from anybody other than their children, just move your needle to another groove. Relationships are addictions, just like drugs, they have the same effect on our neurotransmitters as drugs.

People who spend a lot of time alone, will have time to contemplate many aspects of life in a very deep, unique & personal ways, this is wisdom, the most important part of our personalities IMO. They also have time to harness knowledge, skills and talents they would otherwise be too busy to. Too much isolation for some people may do harm, the hermits life is not for everybody, actually I've never known of a dull hermit lol, weird- maybe (and that's good), stupid- never.


Withdrawing from society is essential for certain levels of spiritual awakening, one must leave it all behind, let go of everything. Possessions and relationships are part and parcel of the ego illusion, it all must die. Only then is one reborn truly liberated, and every human being becomes as valuable, beautiful, and yet, as undesirable as the next.

Shamans call the spiritual path, the flight of the alone, to the alone. That might sound lonely and depressing to a socialite, nobody said waking up was easy, but when one finds their true self, one knows their true self is all that exists, and it's all that needs to exist, for it is infinite possibilities ever changing.


Rich inner world or rich outer world, we can't have it all.

[jamesbond]

In America there are a lot of "party animals." These people are always loud mouthed, rude and obnoxious and they think they are part of the "in crowd" just because they get wasted on the weekends (like getting wasted is something to aspire to).

If a party animal person meets someone who is not a party animal, they automatically label them as a loser. This seems to be part of the American culture for some reason. In order to be seen as being "hip" and "cool" you need to conform and become a "party animal."

Girls in America LOVE guys who are "party animals" because they are seen as being fun, sociable and popular. What girl wouldn't want to be around a guy who is part of the "in crowd."

Welcome to the social scene in America! Want to be seen as being hip and cool? Want to be popular and fit in with others? Well, become a "party animal" and maybe people will label you as being "cool" and "popular" and you'll become part of the "in crowd."

[Winston]

In America there are a lot of "party animals." These people are always loud mouthed, rude and obnoxious and they think they are part of the "in crowd" just because they get wasted on the weekends (like getting wasted is something to aspire to).

If a party animal person meets someone who is not a party animal, they automatically label them as a loser. This seems to be part of the American culture for some reason. In order to be seen as being "hip" and "cool" you need to conform and become a "party animal."

Girls in America LOVE guys who are "party animals" because they are seen as being fun, sociable and popular. What girl wouldn't want to be around a guy who is part of the "in crowd."

Welcome to the social scene in America! Want to be seen as being hip and cool? Want to be popular and fit in with others? Well, become a "party animal" and maybe people will label you as being "cool" and "popular" and you'll become part of the "in crowd."

How do you pretend to be something that you're not though?

I especially hate pretending that I'm stupid just to fit in. How do you do that though? I don't think I could convincingly act stupid like that even if I tried. lol

Also, ALL people, including airhead girls, will SAY that they are not fake but are very genuine, and that only others are fake, but not them. So if everyone says that they are not fake, then who is fake? lol

Everyone also thinks that they are good drivers and that only other people are bad drivers. lol

[raindreamer333]

When I was in high school, there was a Filipina girl who came to my school. She was simple, sweet, and quiet. But she was a complete loner. No other girls befriended her. Actually, her first friends were actually guys - the guys felt more sorry for her than the girls did. I remember she would just eat her lunch by herself in front of her locker, just simly reading a book, and every now and then a guy who had some compassion for her would come and sit next to her and chat for a while. Anyway, she was very socially advanced, but really couldn't fit in with the other girls. The girls in the school were just too self centered, slutty, big- mac loving, rebellious, and generally unfeminine. Even the nicer girls were very self centered. So her first friends, and almost all of her friends, were male.

[jamesbond]

When I was in high school, there was a Filipina girl who came to my school. She was simple, sweet, and quiet. But she was a complete loner. No other girls befriended her. Actually, her first friends were actually guys - the guys felt more sorry for her than the girls did. I remember she would just eat her lunch by herself in front of her locker, just simly reading a book, and every now and then a guy who had some compassion for her would come and sit next to her and chat for a while. Anyway, she was very socially advanced, but really couldn't fit in with the other girls. The girls in the school were just too self centered, slutty, big- mac loving, rebellious, and generally unfeminine. Even the nicer girls were very self centered. So her first friends, and almost all of her friends, were male.

Isn't that sad that the other girls in her school wouldn't even try to become friends with her? High school has to be the WORST time in a persons life! The only people that liked high school were the jocks and popular people. Who in God's name would want to go back to their high school reunion? I liked grade school and college a million times more than high school.

[wuxi]

I was thinking, could it be that people who are "loners" in the western world are not people with no social skills at all, but in fact genuinely sane people who will not (or cannot) act with the fakeness required to fit into groups? Could it be that they have found a deep inner authenticity inside that they don't want to compromise because they are on such a different frequency, that for them to conform to bullshit and "go through the motions" that it takes to get along in groups and crowds is too taxing?

Could that be the truth? What do you think?

Also, have you ever met a popular person with many friends among mainstream people, who told the truth like it is with no BS, no political correctness and no fakeness?

Winston, I think your comments are quite valid. As a loner, I can safely say I have difficulty dealing with people that are pretentious, even within my own family. I took an online personality test recently and scored very low on psychopathic traits. However, this is a problem when I'm dating. Most women are deceptive and I end the relationship once I see through them usually after the first date.

[Winston]

Question: Are the majority sane or insane? Is the misfit the one who is sane and authentic?

Most people assume that:

1) The majority of people are right, normal, sane, friendly and sociable.
2) Misfits and people who don't follow the herd are crazy, insane and weird. They are the problem and to blame for any incompatibility with others.

However, many great thinkers and intellectuals with deep insight, from ages ago to recent times, have seen through this fallacy, and realized that the reverse was true. Here are some quotes from them:

“The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.� - Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

"The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." - H. L. Mencken

“Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.� - Gandhi

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." - Frederich Nietzsche

"Ninety-nine percent of the people in the world are fools, and the rest of us are in great danger of contagion." - Thornton Wilder

"Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong." — Oscar Wilde

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Frederich Nietzsche

"Men have been taught that it is a virtue to agree with others. But the creator is the man who disagrees. Men have been taught that it is a virtue to swim with the current. But the creator is the man who goes against the current. Men have been taught that it is a virtue to stand together. But the creator is the man who stands alone." - Ayn Rand

"Honesty is such a lonely word. Everyone is so untrue..." - Billy Joel, in his hit song "Honesty"

"The sick individual finds himself at home with all other similarly sick individuals. The whole culture is geared to this kind of pathology. The result is that the average individual does not experience the separateness and isolation the fully schizophrenic person feels. He feels at ease among those who suffer from the same deformation; in fact, it is the fully sane person who feels isolated in the insane society — and he may suffer so much from the incapacity to communicate that it is he who may become psychotic." - Eric Fromm (The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness)

This parable illustrates the truth that Fromm described very well:

"The parable of the poisoned well

There was once a wise king who ruled over a vast city. He was feared for his might and loved for his wisdom. Now in the heart of the city, there was a well whose waters were pure and crystalline from which the king and all the inhabitants drank. When all were asleep, an enemy entered the city and poured seven drops of a strange liquid into the well. And he said that henceforth all who drink this water shall become mad.

All the people drank of the water, but not the king. And the people began to say, "The king is mad and has lost his reason. Look how strangely he behaves. We cannot be ruled by a madman, so he must be dethroned."

The king grew very fearful, for his subjects were preparing to rise against him. So one evening, he ordered a golden goblet to be filled from the well, and he drank deeply. The next day, there was great rejoicing among the people, for their beloved king had finally regained his reason."

Thus it is sad and no wonder that we live in an upside down world, as Michael Ellner describes in this profound statement:

"Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality."

[Winston]

I was thinking, could it be that people who are "loners" in the western world are not people with no social skills at all, but in fact genuinely sane people who will not (or cannot) act with the fakeness required to fit into groups? Could it be that they have found a deep inner authenticity inside that they don't want to compromise because they are on such a different frequency, that for them to conform to bullshit and "go through the motions" that it takes to get along in groups and crowds is too taxing?

Could that be the truth? What do you think?

Also, have you ever met a popular person with many friends among mainstream people, who told the truth like it is with no BS, no political correctness and no fakeness?

Winston, I think your comments are quite valid. As a loner, I can safely say I have difficulty dealing with people that are pretentious, even within my own family. I took an online personality test recently and scored very low on psychopathic traits. However, this is a problem when I'm dating. Most women are deceptive and I end the relationship once I see through them usually after the first date.

Good point. Sometimes, when you see things clearly and discovered yourself, you realize that it's better to spend time alone living an AUTHENTIC life than to be with others going through the motions of pretentiousness. What do you think?