Are Jews a Race, a Religion, a Culture or all of those? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Discuss racial, ethnic and multicultural issues. Warning: The topics here are likely to be taboo, so if you are easily offended, you are better off not participating here.
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Contrarian Expatriate
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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion or Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by Contrarian Expatriate »

Winston wrote:
July 18th, 2020, 1:08 am
@Contrarian Expatriate
How do you explain Jewish physical characteristics if they aren't a race? See below.

http://web.ceu.hu/jewishstudies/pdf/01_hoedl.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotyp ... l_features

https://www.thejc.com/lifestyle/feature ... u-1.433347
Take a look at the photos of the Jews of different races and that is your answer.


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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion, Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by fschmidt »

The argument between Cornfed and Contrarian Expatriate about race is semantic, and so is meaningless. It is a question of how race is defined, whether by shared ancestry as reflected in a few genes or by more generally shared genetics. So rather than ask about race versus religion, I will ask about ancestry versus religion.

And the answer to this question is totally unclear because Judaism has intentionally confused this issue. Judaism defines "Jew" primarily by ancestry, but accepting this definition leaves you with no word to describe people associated with Judaism. So you can just choose whichever definition you find most useful.

I define "Jew" as those who are both accepted by Judaism as Jews and support Judaism. This includes Jewish atheists who support Judaism without believing in it. I choose this definition because I find it to be the most useful definition. Judaism itself is a set of values described in the Talmud. These values are extremely harmful to non-Jews who live along side with Jews. So this definition describes a group of people that sensible people would not allow into their society. By this definition Ivanka Trump is a Jew (though not racially Jewish) and I am not a Jew (though I am racially Jewish). And I think it is fair to say that Ivanka Trump is much more harmful to America than I am.
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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion, Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by ladislav »

All of those, but it also depends where they are and who is classifying them. Let me explain:

A very short answer. Jews are basically, a Semitic ethnic group, similar to Arabs and Berbers, and who are mostly of Mediterranean appearance- and which has its own religion. If you think it's strange, think of, say, Romans. What was the " nationality" of Romans and their ethnicity? Roman, right? What was the religion of the Romans? Again, Roman.

In many languages, and in English before, there is no distinction between a Jew and Hebrew ( or a Judean and an Israelite). In modern English, though, "Hebrew" means, kind of like an ancient Jew from the times of Jesus.

Whereas in Greek, Italian, Slavic languages, Romanian, etc;, Jews are just called "Hebrews". And "Israelite" is also used. They all mean the same thing. Also, the words "Judean" and "Jew" sound the same in Hebrew and most other languages. Just like Cambodian and Khmer mean the same.

A short history: Jews are indigenous to the area of Palestine/Jordan same as the local Arabs. But during the times of the Roman empire, their country, called Judea was ransacked by the Romans because of constant rebellions, and its inhabitants exiled around the Roman empire. But they were not given citizenship and continued living in isolated communities keeping their culture pure. There was some intermarriage with Roman women, but not much. Most Jews stayed pure.

Many got established in what later became Germany and developed a patois called Yiddish. These became known as Ashkenazis. The others settled in Spain and they became known as Sephardic. Ashkenaz and Spharad are just Hebrew words for Germany and Spain.

The Jews were not liked in those countries because they were not Christians and because they were not of the indigenous stock. They were most often not given citizenship, denied the right to own and till land and were shut out of guilds. Some professions were open to them, most were not. Banking was open, for one and so was money lending.

They as a rule lived in isolated communities and did not mingle with the locals. Very little intermarriage happened. And as it is common in Europe and Asia, there is no Jus Soli. Meaning, just because one is born there, it does not make one of the nation where one is born. Thus, the nationality of the Jews ( as far as the Europeans were concerned) remained Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite for centuries.

European rulers were known to borrow money from them, and then, unable to pay, expel all of them to the next country. They were also accused of all kinds of things like spreading the plague and killing Christian babies, etc. Basically, used as scapegoats for popular ire. Later, Christian churches accused them all of the highest crime imaginable: killing God Jesus Christ. This created a lot of hatred among the locals and they called Jew Christ killers. In some countries, some Jews converted to Christianity, but the locals still saw them as alien Semites.

For a while, in Germany, some Jews were so assimilated that they started calling themselves " Germans of Jewish faith" and began " feeling" German. But, Germans did not see it that way. Still a Judean who is trying to act German. Not of the local stock.

Eventually, more persecutions happened in the Russian Empire as Jews were all accused of killing the Czar. First, God and now the monarch. Thus, many were attacked and killed and many left for America and other former British colonies in the New World. The rest participated in the back-to- Palestine movement called Zionism. Eventually, millions started buying land there which created frictions with the Arab neighbors who saw these Jews as " Europeans" because from the Arab point of view, they were. While Europeans saw Jews as Semites, an Asiatic, Middle Easter Arab-like tribe. Thus, the term "anti-Semitism".

In the New World, the Jews were finally able to become locals because being born in America, Australia, NZ, Canada, Argentina, etc. makes you an American, Australian, etc. There is even a concept of a "native born citizen" which Europe does not have. But in places like Poland, Russia, Romania, etc, they are still seen as Hebrews.

Now, on to your question. Again, let's take the Roman analogy. Imagine, you are having this conversation with say, Julius Caesar. If you ask him his race, he will probably say "Roman", he will also say that his nationality, ethnicity, religion and culture would be Roman. Thus, Romans were all those things gelled into one entity: Romans.

It is the same with the Jews. However, let's take it apart.

Are Jews a race? It depends on who is observing and classifying them, where and when. In England of old , Jews were seen as a separate race. But so were the Irish. Now, Jews are not seen as a race in England and are not even listed anywhere. Jews were also seen as members of the Hebrew / Semitic race in early America. Even in the 1950ies they were barred in many areas because no Semitic race was allowed.

And in Germany and Spain, Jews were also considered a race by the locals.

Other countries such as Russia and its neighbors, a huge part of the world, Jews are seen as a separate ( ethnic) nation(ality). Not a Nation in the Anglo Saxon meaning which means " an independent country" , but a nation such as say the Apaches, the First Nations of Canada, etc. In the USSR, Jews had it written in their IDs and all documents " nationality: Hebrew". Thus, as far as that part of the world, Jews, to them, are a separate nationality. It's the same in South Africa. Jews are a nation and a nationality.

In Slavic and Germanic lands, Jewish faces look different from the locals. In Greece, Italy and Lebanon, not so much. Thus to a Slav, a Jew belongs to another nation/ethnicity/race, but to a Greek, he does not.

Are Jews a religious group/religion? Some people say Judaism is not a race or a nation. And they are right. But Judaism is the religion of the Hebrew/ Jewish people (TM). Just like the Roman religion was the religion of the Romans. So, were Romans a religious group? Yes, you can say that.

Are Jews a culture? Yes, also. Again see the analogy with the Romans. Or anyone else/ Are the Japanese a culture? Yes.

However, one needs to consider the final factor: what Jews traditionally call themselves. The Hebrew word is " Am". "Am" means a "nation", This is the ultimate authority to the Jews and it overrides what others classify them as. Some may call them a race, some call them a nation, some call them an ethnicity, religion and some call them a culture. But ultimately, the Torah decides. And it says Jews are an " Am". A nation. That seals it.

If you meet Jews in America ( or Canada, Australia. etc) and they were born there, many will have very little knowledge of Jewish history and what it means to be a Jew. Now, they are considered " White people" ( there was no such concept in Russia or Germany) and say things like: " I'm an American, but my religion is Jewish". Which is very common. But a Jew cannot say that in Russia or in Poland or in Kazakhstan. In Kazakhstan, his/her ID will still say :" nationality:Hebrew". Even if he does not speak Hebrew.

Who else keeps telling that Jews are a religion only? Arabs do. Again, because most Arabs have little to no knowledge of who Jews are, it's not taught in schools there, and also, because Arabs in their cultures only classify people by two things: "jinsia" which means " citizenship" and "diana" which means " faith/religion". Is it Islam, Christianity or Judaism? So, to an Arab, David Ben-Gurion is a Polish man of Jewish faith because he held polish citizenship. But to Poles, he was not.

To conclude: who and what Jews are depends on who is classifying them, where and when. Also, it depends on the language they are being classified in. Italians will still call them Hebrews, but Americans will not. The Russians will call them a nationality, but Canadians will not. Some Brits still call them a race, but Arabs do not. In some countries, Jews will look different from the locals, such as in Germany or Poland, but in others, such as in Greece and italy- or in Brooklyn, NY, they will not stand out. In some cultures, Jews are called a religious community, in some they are called an ethnicity. In Argentina, they call Jews a cultural-religious community, and not a race or nationality.

To respond, Jews are all those together, but not everyone agrees they are.

Here are some typical Jewish faces for you to look at: you will agree that most look like N. Arabs mixed with Italians. Some people show pictures of blonde and black Jews, but those are on the fringes. There are also blonde and black Arabs, but most Arabs, well, look Arab:

http://ashkenazim.weebly.com/gallery.html
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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion, Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by fschmidt »

ladislav wrote:
July 19th, 2020, 12:26 am
All of those, but it also depends where they are and who is classifying them. Let me explain:

A very short answer. Jews are basically, a Semitic ethnic group, similar to Arabs and Berbers, and who are mostly of Mediterranean appearance- and which has its own religion.
So first you say "all of those" and then you say "a Semitic ethnic group". Which is it?
If you think it's strange, think of, say, Romans. What was the " nationality" of Romans and their ethnicity? Roman, right?
Wrong. The original Romans were one small group. They are the ethnic Romans. But as Rome expanded, it assimilated many ethnicities into the Roman nation. This is what allowed Rome to be so successful. Racists who are obsessed with ethnicity cannot build great nations.
They as a rule lived in isolated communities and did not mingle with the locals. Very little intermarriage happened. And as it is common in Europe and Asia, there is no Jus Soli. Meaning, just because one is born there, it does not make one of the nation where one is born. Thus, the nationality of the Jews ( as far as the Europeans were concerned) remained Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite for centuries.
This is not how it was in Hungary where my family is from. Hungary had 3 groups people - the aristocracy, the peasants, and the Jews. These 3 groups generally did not intermarry, but all 3 were considered Hungarian. Each group played a different role in society.
In some countries, some Jews converted to Christianity, but the locals still saw them as alien Semites.
Generally not true. The main issue was religion. While race is an obvious human trait, religion was more important until recently. So for example when Jews converted to Christianity in Spain, they simply became part of the general population. Historically the obsession with race happens in a culture then it loses its religion and begins to decline. This is currently the case in the West.
Now, on to your question. Again, let's take the Roman analogy. Imagine, you are having this conversation with say, Julius Caesar. If you ask him his race, he will probably say "Roman", he will also say that his nationality, ethnicity, religion and culture would be Roman. Thus, Romans were all those things gelled into one entity: Romans.
Wrong, see above. In fact even though Rome culturally declined for centuries, it didn't fail until it lost the ability to assimilate ethnicities. Only then did it fall.
Are Jews a race? It depends on who is observing and classifying them, where and when. In England of old , Jews were seen as a separate race. But so were the Irish.
I am not an expert in English history, but I seriously doubt this because only decaying cultures obsess about race. More likely the English thought in terms of "peoples/nations" which includes all characteristics of a group, race being just one minor component.
However, one needs to consider the final factor: what Jews traditionally call themselves. The Hebrew word is " Am". "Am" means a "nation", This is the ultimate authority to the Jews and it overrides what others classify them as. Some may call them a race, some call them a nation, some call them an ethnicity, religion and some call them a culture. But ultimately, the Torah decides. And it says Jews are an " Am". A nation. That seals it.
No, the Torah does not say that Jews are an "am". The Torah says "am yisrael" not "am yehudim". In other words, the nation of the Israelites, not the nation of the Jews. The Israelites were a nation defined by religion, not ancestry. So the Torah talks of a religious nation. Only later did Ezra change the religion to be racist which was the beginning of Judaism. So effectively the Jews are a nation/people defined by a racist religion called Judaism.
Who else keeps telling that Jews are a religion only? Arabs do. Again, because most Arabs have little to no knowledge of who Jews are, it's not taught in schools there, and also, because Arabs in their cultures only classify people by two things: "jinsia" which means " citizenship" and "diana" which means " faith/religion". Is it Islam, Christianity or Judaism? So, to an Arab, David Ben-Gurion is a Polish man of Jewish faith because he held polish citizenship. But to Poles, he was not.
The primary identity of most Arabs is Muslim. You call them Arabs because you seem incapable of thinking in any other terms besides race. But the Muslims understand the issue much better than the insane modern West. The Muslims understand that religion is the core issue. Islamic history has many examples of Jews who converted to Islam and were fully accepted, and educated Muslims know this.
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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion, Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by ladislav »

To reiterate:

To those who say that Jews are not a race, here is my missive.

"Many people say that Jews are not a race. But it really depends on where and to who they are not a race.

But let's suppose Jews are not a race because there are blonde Jews and black Jews. Fair enough.

You can say the same thing about the Arabs.

They are also not a race then. With their ( some) blonde people in Lebanon, blacks in Somalia and Sudan, red heads in Syria, etc.

However, these non-Arab looking people are on the fringes.

Most Arabs look Semitic and most Jews look Eastern Mediterranean. Yes a black person here, a blond there. Sometimes, and in small %%.

Let's compare to other groups further.

I can say, for example, that Latinos are not a race. You have blonde N. Spaniards and black people in the Dominican republic. Does that mean they are not a race? It depends where and to who.

In their countries, they are not. But in others, they are.

Groups of humans become races when they are in an environment populated by people who are visibly of another stock, and where they stick out and can be labeled and identified by those who now surround them.

When Latinos ( not a race) appear in a small town in Georgia, they stand out like a sore thumb. And the locals label them as Latinos.

Similarly, when a bunch of Arabs appear in Germany, they don't look German, they look " Arab". The locals look at them and say, "Oh, look, here come some Arabs!"

And when Jews appear in Poland and Russia, they look Semitic/Eastern/ Mediterranean to the Slavs. And the Slavs look at them and label them. ' Oh, look, there come a bunch of Hebrews".

To illustrate, get an image of Menachem Begin or Albert Einstein. Now get images of a Polish man or Russian man. Compare. They look like the Jews and the Slavs belong to two different races. At least in Slavic countries.

So, to Slavs and Germanics, Jews are a race.

And to Germans, Arabs and Turks are races. And to a White Anglo Saxons, Latinos are a race. They can identify and label them based on the looks. And racism and persecutions are based on that, not on exceptions to the rule.

Are Mexicans a race? You can say they are not. Show some blonde Mexicans and some black ones. They do exist.

But some years ago, in Texas, some lone gunman went into a Walmart and started mowing down Mexicans killing 27 people. How did he know they were Mexicans if Mexican are not a race? Probably because they looked it? But Mexicans are not a race, no? Well, to him, they were because in majority, they look different from the N. European majority of Texas.

See what I mean? Same with the Jews.

Jews are a race when they are among people who in their majority don't look like them.

So, Jews are not a race to Arabs, Iranians, Turks or Greeks. Also, they are " white" in US cities.

Jews are a race to Germans and Slavs. And many Anglo Saxons in the US hinterlands.

Thus, it depends on where they are and who is labeling them".
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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion, Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by Contrarian Expatriate »

ladislav wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 7:07 am
To reiterate:

To those who say that Jews are not a race, here is my missive.

"Many people say that Jews are not a race. But it really depends on where and to who they are not a race.

But let's suppose Jews are not a race because there are blonde Jews and black Jews. Fair enough.

You can say the same thing about the Arabs.

They are also not a race then. With their ( some) blonde people in Lebanon, blacks in Somalia and Sudan, red heads in Syria, etc.

However, these non-Arab looking people are on the fringes.

Most Arabs look Semitic and most Jews look Eastern Mediterranean. Yes a black person here, a blond there. Sometimes, and in small %%.

Let's compare to other groups further.

I can say, for example, that Latinos are not a race. You have blonde N. Spaniards and black people in the Dominican republic. Does that mean they are not a race? It depends where and to who.

In their countries, they are not. But in others, they are.

Groups of humans become races when they are in an environment populated by people who are visibly of another stock, and where they stick out and can be labeled and identified by those who now surround them.

When Latinos ( not a race) appear in a small town in Georgia, they stand out like a sore thumb. And the locals label them as Latinos.

Similarly, when a bunch of Arabs appear in Germany, they don't look German, they look " Arab". The locals look at them and say, "Oh, look, here come some Arabs!"

And when Jews appear in Poland and Russia, they look Semitic/Eastern/ Mediterranean to the Slavs. And the Slavs look at them and label them. ' Oh, look, there come a bunch of Hebrews".

To illustrate, get an image of Menachem Begin or Albert Einstein. Now get images of a Polish man or Russian man. Compare. They look like the Jews and the Slavs belong to two different races. At least in Slavic countries.

So, to Slavs and Germanics, Jews are a race.

And to Germans, Arabs and Turks are races. And to a White Anglo Saxons, Latinos are a race. They can identify and label them based on the looks. And racism and persecutions are based on that, not on exceptions to the rule.

Are Mexicans a race? You can say they are not. Show some blonde Mexicans and some black ones. They do exist.

But some years ago, in Texas, some lone gunman went into a Walmart and started mowing down Mexicans killing 27 people. How did he know they were Mexicans if Mexican are not a race? Probably because they looked it? But Mexicans are not a race, no? Well, to him, they were because in majority, they look different from the N. European majority of Texas.

See what I mean? Same with the Jews.

Jews are a race when they are among people who in their majority don't look like them.

So, Jews are not a race to Arabs, Iranians, Turks or Greeks. Also, they are " white" in US cities.

Jews are a race to Germans and Slavs. And many Anglo Saxons in the US hinterlands.

Thus, it depends on where they are and who is labeling them".
I think the arbitrary use of the term “race” makes this a worthless discussion. I could claim Klingons as a race too while ignoring the fact that they have never existed.

The bottom line is that Jews are so genetically diverse in terms of gene haplogroup membership that the Jews as a race argument just falls flat.

Jews constitute an ethno-religious group, period. No one cares what Slavs, and Nazis, and Turks consider them. They are not a single race and never will be.
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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion, Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by ladislav »

In America, no one cares what Slavs and Germans and Turks consider them. But in those countries, people care. And Nazis did not suddenly come up with the concept of Jews as a race. They simply drew on the local culture and just made it stronger.
And in Russia and all the ex Soviet states, Jews are a separate nation and nationality. Which is really not wrong, because Jews by Torah, call themselves a nation, also. Here is a Soviet ID. See fifth paragraph. It says "nationality: Hebrew".
Image
You are right about "ethno-religious group", but it is a term in English and is used mainly in the US and most other Anglo countries. In South Africa, Jews are a nationality albeit informally. But most of the world does not use English and has different terms in classifying people.
So again, depends on the place and in what language the Jews are classified.
Whether one cares or not, also depends on the place and the person's status there.
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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion, Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by Spencer »

fschmidt wrote:
July 18th, 2020, 3:10 pm
The argument between Cornfed and Contrarian Expatriate about race is semantic, and so is meaningless. It is a question of how race is defined, whether by shared ancestry as reflected in a few genes or by more generally shared genetics. So rather than ask about race versus religion, I will ask about ancestry versus religion.

And the answer to this question is totally unclear because Judaism has intentionally confused this issue. Judaism defines "Jew" primarily by ancestry, but accepting this definition leaves you with no word to describe people associated with Judaism. So you can just choose whichever definition you find most useful.

I define "Jew" as those who are both accepted by Judaism as Jews and support Judaism. This includes Jewish atheists who support Judaism without believing in it. I choose this definition because I find it to be the most useful definition. Judaism itself is a set of values described in the Talmud. These values are extremely harmful to non-Jews who live along side with Jews. So this definition describes a group of people that sensible people would not allow into their society. By this definition Ivanka Trump is a Jew (though not racially Jewish) and I am not a Jew (though I am racially Jewish). And I think it is fair to say that Ivanka Trump is much more harmful to America than I am.
Omg you hit nail on head wow i think same thing for english tonge full on rifle with inconstancy and ambigus word defining

but why you say ivanka jewlady for i thinking jewman defining by momy ancestrial not dady for if my momy jew lady and dady goyman then i jewman but if dady jewman but momy goylady then i not jew so how did it becoming that ivanka a jewlady
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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion, Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by Spencer »

ladislav wrote:
July 19th, 2020, 12:26 am
All of those, but it also depends where they are and who is classifying them. Let me explain:

A very short answer. Jews are basically, a Semitic ethnic group, similar to Arabs and Berbers, and who are mostly of Mediterranean appearance- and which has its own religion. If you think it's strange, think of, say, Romans. What was the " nationality" of Romans and their ethnicity? Roman, right? What was the religion of the Romans? Again, Roman.

In many languages, and in English before, there is no distinction between a Jew and Hebrew ( or a Judean and an Israelite). In modern English, though, "Hebrew" means, kind of like an ancient Jew from the times of Jesus.

Whereas in Greek, Italian, Slavic languages, Romanian, etc;, Jews are just called "Hebrews". And "Israelite" is also used. They all mean the same thing. Also, the words "Judean" and "Jew" sound the same in Hebrew and most other languages. Just like Cambodian and Khmer mean the same.

A short history: Jews are indigenous to the area of Palestine/Jordan same as the local Arabs. But during the times of the Roman empire, their country, called Judea was ransacked by the Romans because of constant rebellions, and its inhabitants exiled around the Roman empire. But they were not given citizenship and continued living in isolated communities keeping their culture pure. There was some intermarriage with Roman women, but not much. Most Jews stayed pure.

Many got established in what later became Germany and developed a patois called Yiddish. These became known as Ashkenazis. The others settled in Spain and they became known as Sephardic. Ashkenaz and Spharad are just Hebrew words for Germany and Spain.

The Jews were not liked in those countries because they were not Christians and because they were not of the indigenous stock. They were most often not given citizenship, denied the right to own and till land and were shut out of guilds. Some professions were open to them, most were not. Banking was open, for one and so was money lending.

They as a rule lived in isolated communities and did not mingle with the locals. Very little intermarriage happened. And as it is common in Europe and Asia, there is no Jus Soli. Meaning, just because one is born there, it does not make one of the nation where one is born. Thus, the nationality of the Jews ( as far as the Europeans were concerned) remained Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite for centuries.

European rulers were known to borrow money from them, and then, unable to pay, expel all of them to the next country. They were also accused of all kinds of things like spreading the plague and killing Christian babies, etc. Basically, used as scapegoats for popular ire. Later, Christian churches accused them all of the highest crime imaginable: killing God Jesus Christ. This created a lot of hatred among the locals and they called Jew Christ killers. In some countries, some Jews converted to Christianity, but the locals still saw them as alien Semites.

For a while, in Germany, some Jews were so assimilated that they started calling themselves " Germans of Jewish faith" and began " feeling" German. But, Germans did not see it that way. Still a Judean who is trying to act German. Not of the local stock.

Eventually, more persecutions happened in the Russian Empire as Jews were all accused of killing the Czar. First, God and now the monarch. Thus, many were attacked and killed and many left for America and other former British colonies in the New World. The rest participated in the back-to- Palestine movement called Zionism. Eventually, millions started buying land there which created frictions with the Arab neighbors who saw these Jews as " Europeans" because from the Arab point of view, they were. While Europeans saw Jews as Semites, an Asiatic, Middle Easter Arab-like tribe. Thus, the term "anti-Semitism".

In the New World, the Jews were finally able to become locals because being born in America, Australia, NZ, Canada, Argentina, etc. makes you an American, Australian, etc. There is even a concept of a "native born citizen" which Europe does not have. But in places like Poland, Russia, Romania, etc, they are still seen as Hebrews.

Now, on to your question. Again, let's take the Roman analogy. Imagine, you are having this conversation with say, Julius Caesar. If you ask him his race, he will probably say "Roman", he will also say that his nationality, ethnicity, religion and culture would be Roman. Thus, Romans were all those things gelled into one entity: Romans.

It is the same with the Jews. However, let's take it apart.

Are Jews a race? It depends on who is observing and classifying them, where and when. In England of old , Jews were seen as a separate race. But so were the Irish. Now, Jews are not seen as a race in England and are not even listed anywhere. Jews were also seen as members of the Hebrew / Semitic race in early America. Even in the 1950ies they were barred in many areas because no Semitic race was allowed.

And in Germany and Spain, Jews were also considered a race by the locals.

Other countries such as Russia and its neighbors, a huge part of the world, Jews are seen as a separate ( ethnic) nation(ality). Not a Nation in the Anglo Saxon meaning which means " an independent country" , but a nation such as say the Apaches, the First Nations of Canada, etc. In the USSR, Jews had it written in their IDs and all documents " nationality: Hebrew". Thus, as far as that part of the world, Jews, to them, are a separate nationality. It's the same in South Africa. Jews are a nation and a nationality.

In Slavic and Germanic lands, Jewish faces look different from the locals. In Greece, Italy and Lebanon, not so much. Thus to a Slav, a Jew belongs to another nation/ethnicity/race, but to a Greek, he does not.

Are Jews a religious group/religion? Some people say Judaism is not a race or a nation. And they are right. But Judaism is the religion of the Hebrew/ Jewish people (TM). Just like the Roman religion was the religion of the Romans. So, were Romans a religious group? Yes, you can say that.

Are Jews a culture? Yes, also. Again see the analogy with the Romans. Or anyone else/ Are the Japanese a culture? Yes.

However, one needs to consider the final factor: what Jews traditionally call themselves. The Hebrew word is " Am". "Am" means a "nation", This is the ultimate authority to the Jews and it overrides what others classify them as. Some may call them a race, some call them a nation, some call them an ethnicity, religion and some call them a culture. But ultimately, the Torah decides. And it says Jews are an " Am". A nation. That seals it.

If you meet Jews in America ( or Canada, Australia. etc) and they were born there, many will have very little knowledge of Jewish history and what it means to be a Jew. Now, they are considered " White people" ( there was no such concept in Russia or Germany) and say things like: " I'm an American, but my religion is Jewish". Which is very common. But a Jew cannot say that in Russia or in Poland or in Kazakhstan. In Kazakhstan, his/her ID will still say :" nationality:Hebrew". Even if he does not speak Hebrew.

Who else keeps telling that Jews are a religion only? Arabs do. Again, because most Arabs have little to no knowledge of who Jews are, it's not taught in schools there, and also, because Arabs in their cultures only classify people by two things: "jinsia" which means " citizenship" and "diana" which means " faith/religion". Is it Islam, Christianity or Judaism? So, to an Arab, David Ben-Gurion is a Polish man of Jewish faith because he held polish citizenship. But to Poles, he was not.

To conclude: who and what Jews are depends on who is classifying them, where and when. Also, it depends on the language they are being classified in. Italians will still call them Hebrews, but Americans will not. The Russians will call them a nationality, but Canadians will not. Some Brits still call them a race, but Arabs do not. In some countries, Jews will look different from the locals, such as in Germany or Poland, but in others, such as in Greece and italy- or in Brooklyn, NY, they will not stand out. In some cultures, Jews are called a religious community, in some they are called an ethnicity. In Argentina, they call Jews a cultural-religious community, and not a race or nationality.

To respond, Jews are all those together, but not everyone agrees they are.

Here are some typical Jewish faces for you to look at: you will agree that most look like N. Arabs mixed with Italians. Some people show pictures of blonde and black Jews, but those are on the fringes. There are also blonde and black Arabs, but most Arabs, well, look Arab:

http://ashkenazim.weebly.com/gallery.html
Wowee you sound same phd on what is jewman and what you writing backing up of the fsmidy semantical arguings forso we see aborders can learning so so much from the master aborder like the ladslavic
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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion, Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by Spencer »

fschmidt wrote:
July 19th, 2020, 9:12 am
ladislav wrote:
July 19th, 2020, 12:26 am
All of those, but it also depends where they are and who is classifying them. Let me explain:

A very short answer. Jews are basically, a Semitic ethnic group, similar to Arabs and Berbers, and who are mostly of Mediterranean appearance- and which has its own religion.
So first you say "all of those" and then you say "a Semitic ethnic group". Which is it?
If you think it's strange, think of, say, Romans. What was the " nationality" of Romans and their ethnicity? Roman, right?
Wrong. The original Romans were one small group. They are the ethnic Romans. But as Rome expanded, it assimilated many ethnicities into the Roman nation. This is what allowed Rome to be so successful. Racists who are obsessed with ethnicity cannot build great nations.
They as a rule lived in isolated communities and did not mingle with the locals. Very little intermarriage happened. And as it is common in Europe and Asia, there is no Jus Soli. Meaning, just because one is born there, it does not make one of the nation where one is born. Thus, the nationality of the Jews ( as far as the Europeans were concerned) remained Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite for centuries.
This is not how it was in Hungary where my family is from. Hungary had 3 groups people - the aristocracy, the peasants, and the Jews. These 3 groups generally did not intermarry, but all 3 were considered Hungarian. Each group played a different role in society.
In some countries, some Jews converted to Christianity, but the locals still saw them as alien Semites.
Generally not true. The main issue was religion. While race is an obvious human trait, religion was more important until recently. So for example when Jews converted to Christianity in Spain, they simply became part of the general population. Historically the obsession with race happens in a culture then it loses its religion and begins to decline. This is currently the case in the West.
Now, on to your question. Again, let's take the Roman analogy. Imagine, you are having this conversation with say, Julius Caesar. If you ask him his race, he will probably say "Roman", he will also say that his nationality, ethnicity, religion and culture would be Roman. Thus, Romans were all those things gelled into one entity: Romans.
Wrong, see above. In fact even though Rome culturally declined for centuries, it didn't fail until it lost the ability to assimilate ethnicities. Only then did it fall.
Are Jews a race? It depends on who is observing and classifying them, where and when. In England of old , Jews were seen as a separate race. But so were the Irish.
I am not an expert in English history, but I seriously doubt this because only decaying cultures obsess about race. More likely the English thought in terms of "peoples/nations" which includes all characteristics of a group, race being just one minor component.
However, one needs to consider the final factor: what Jews traditionally call themselves. The Hebrew word is " Am". "Am" means a "nation", This is the ultimate authority to the Jews and it overrides what others classify them as. Some may call them a race, some call them a nation, some call them an ethnicity, religion and some call them a culture. But ultimately, the Torah decides. And it says Jews are an " Am". A nation. That seals it.
No, the Torah does not say that Jews are an "am". The Torah says "am yisrael" not "am yehudim". In other words, the nation of the Israelites, not the nation of the Jews. The Israelites were a nation defined by religion, not ancestry. So the Torah talks of a religious nation. Only later did Ezra change the religion to be racist which was the beginning of Judaism. So effectively the Jews are a nation/people defined by a racist religion called Judaism.
Who else keeps telling that Jews are a religion only? Arabs do. Again, because most Arabs have little to no knowledge of who Jews are, it's not taught in schools there, and also, because Arabs in their cultures only classify people by two things: "jinsia" which means " citizenship" and "diana" which means " faith/religion". Is it Islam, Christianity or Judaism? So, to an Arab, David Ben-Gurion is a Polish man of Jewish faith because he held polish citizenship. But to Poles, he was not.
The primary identity of most Arabs is Muslim. You call them Arabs because you seem incapable of thinking in any other terms besides race. But the Muslims understand the issue much better than the insane modern West. The Muslims understand that religion is the core issue. Islamic history has many examples of Jews who converted to Islam and were fully accepted, and educated Muslims know this.
Uh o alert we having expert vs expert and learning so so much but who the right for both these aborders genus on jewman subjection so now we need call over intuition empath master truther wiseton for make refree and get to botom of fac jac and say which is real truthing on specialty points of contention between the genus ladslavic vs fsmidy
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"Wiseton is a very dynamic individual, what most would call a genius. He's started a movement, and only genius types can do such a thing." - Boycottamericanwomen
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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion, Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by ladislav »

Those black and Oriental looking Jews are real, but they are tiny minorities. I can show you black Japanese and black Germans. I can also show you Black and Oriental looking Arabs. These are not the main stream/main stock.
Again, who the Jews are depends on " to whom". To some people, they are a race, and to other people, they are just a religious group.
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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion, Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by ladislav »

So first you say "all of those" and then you say "a Semitic ethnic group". Which is it?
My view of how they are better to be described.
Wrong. The original Romans were one small group. They are the ethnic Romans. But as Rome expanded, it assimilated many ethnicities into the Roman nation. This is what allowed Rome to be so successful. Racists who are obsessed with ethnicity cannot build great nations.
So, yes, they became one ethicity, nation. etc. Hard to say if there was an official division into real ethnic Romans and the Romanized everyone else or not. There were apparently all Romans and they worshiped their own religion.
This is not how it was in Hungary where my family is from. Hungary had 3 groups people - the aristocracy, the peasants, and the Jews. These 3 groups generally did not intermarry, but all 3 were considered Hungarian. Each group played a different role in society.
Considered Hungarian by whom? By themselves? Apparently, the proper Hungarians disagreed. You can read about the pogroms here. http://jewishdocumentaries.info/article ... -of-1919-/
And even if they were, right across the border, in the enormous Russian Empire they were not considered Russian by anybody- because of not being of Slavic stock. This mainly was what made millions of Jews leave the place and go to the US and Palestine. Because even if one converted, one was still a Baptized Hebrew. Things were different in Hungary? Good for them.
Generally not true. The main issue was religion. While race is an obvious human trait, religion was more important until recently. So for example when Jews converted to Christianity in Spain, they simply became part of the general population. Historically the obsession with race happens in a culture then it loses its religion and begins to decline. This is currently the case in the West.
Ah, Spain. But not in Germany and not in the Russian Empire. Big places. Even if one converts, one is still not one of them. Spain was really different.
Wrong, see above. In fact even though Rome culturally declined for centuries, it didn't fail until it lost the ability to assimilate ethnicities. Only then did it fall.
We are arguing at cross purposes. Romans were Romans by ethnicity( absorbed and real) if that concept even existed, and their religion was Roman.
I am not an expert in English history, but I seriously doubt this because only decaying cultures obsess about race. More likely the English thought in terms of "peoples/nations" which includes all characteristics of a group, race being just one minor component.
Image
Image

No, the Torah does not say that Jews are an "am". The Torah says "am yisrael" not "am yehudim". In other words, the nation of the Israelites, not the nation of the Jews. The Israelites were a nation defined by religion, not ancestry. So the Torah talks of a religious nation. Only later did Ezra change the religion to be racist which was the beginning of Judaism. So effectively the Jews are a nation/people defined by a racist religion called Judaism.
But the people who practiced this religion were not a bunch of Chinese, Slavs or Bantus. They were Semitic tribes or Hebrews. That is precisely how many nations call Jews. They call them Hebrews. And Israelite, Jew and Hebrew are pretty much the same in many languages and is the same thing to many people. And in those times, religion was very important, true. But what language were the people speaking on the street? What kind of physical features they had? They were Semites and Hebrews. In Italian,Greek, Romanian and many other languages, the word for a Jew is Hebrew.
The primary identity of most Arabs is Muslim. You call them Arabs because you seem incapable of thinking in any other terms besides race. But the Muslims understand the issue much better than the insane modern West. The Muslims understand that religion is the core issue. Islamic history has many examples of Jews who converted to Islam and were fully accepted, and educated Muslims know this.
It is true that an Arab thinks of himself as a Muslim first. And they do not put race first. So much is correct. At least, it's supposed to be that way. But there is the Arab League and Arab republics and also "jinsiya" : nationality/citizenship. Gulf Arabs would almost never intermarry with oil-less Arabs, for one. "Ey jinsiya?" "What nationality?" is a very important question in the Arab world. Also, the lighter the skin, the better. So, while Islam tried to unite all people, in practice, there are and passports with "Jinsiya" clearly marked and people are treated based on it.

My point is basically this: based on the location of the Jews and among whom they found themselves, they were called either a race, a nation, Hebrews or just a religious group -- as in the Arab world. They also either became part of the nation they were living in: as in Arab countries after the conversion or in the Americas- upon birth. And that is how they determine a person's belonging to a nation in the New World. But in the Russian Empire and Germany and Central Europe in general they were not part of the nation because they were of the Semitic stock and their faces looked different. Place of birth there is immaterial just like it is in Japan. They were either persecuted for religious reasons and could just convert and be accepted, or for racial/ethnic reasons not being of local racial stock/ looking different. In such places they would not be accepted even if converted.

Your examples of Spain are valid, but not all countries were like Spain. And even in Spain, they used the term La Raza Judia. El tipo judio referring to Jewish facial features. Most Jews ( not all) still look Mediterranean- kind of like Italian and Lebanese people, and thus, stick out in some places and don't stick out in others. Such a Jew will not look different in say, Brazil or Italy. But he will look different in Estonia or Poland or Russia and stick out like a sore thumb. Bang, they can see it and they know the person is Jewish on sight. Same in Germany.

Have a look: this is a special poster to teach kids how to tell Jews from Germans. Thus, in Germany, Jews are not Germans.

Image

Thus, based on their location, Jews are either this or that. Depends on who is observing and labeling them and on the official government taxonomy in that place.

One more point. Since most of the world does not speak English, the Jews are classified by a term in the native language of the place.

In all of Russia and its adjacent republics they will call Jews " yevrey" which means "Hebrew". There is no distinction between yehudim, Israelites, etc. All are called Yevrey. And it's a big chunk of the world in which Jews have to live with such an identity.

Here is a Soviet birth certificate. In underlined letters it says: "nationality Hebrew"
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Again, line three and line six. "Nationality: Hebrew". This was determined by the gov't and was not a self identification.

Image

This is how Slavs see Jews
Image
Here is a Russian poster on how to tell Jews by hair texture, etc.
Image

Image

Here is a police poster to teach cops how to tell Jews and others apart

Image

Can you find a Jew?

It's a whole science there. And most Slavs can tell.

So, depending on location, time period, language, the documents, etc, Jews are either this or that.
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Re: Are the Jews a Race, Religion, Culture or all of them? What are the Jewish People exactly?

Post by SilverEnergy »

The Jews(Ashkenazi Jews) who run everything and have high IQs are not the real descendants of the ancient Israelites.

Ashkenazi Jews are converts who converted to Judaism in 740 A.D.

The real Israelites are the descendants of the black slaves.
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