Hey! Anybody been to Holland/Netherlands?

[picasso25]

I've heard some bad things and good things about the culture in holland and I wanted to know if anyone could tell me about their experinece their or what the dutch people are like, are they typically friendly and inclusive? are they cultured and intelligent? is it pretty dangerous there? PLEASE if anyone has a little knowledge about the dutch and the netherlands, I would love to hear it because I was thinking of traveling there one day.

[Grunt]

Netherlands is a fully 1st world and thus FEMINIST nation. High divorce rates plus the typical feminist ego bloat issues. You would be crazy to even consider the nation for a visit.

[Adama]

[DiscoPro_Joe]

If you're a male feminist like me, I think The Netherlands would be a really good place. I haven't been there, but heard that the women there are feminists without the paranoia or dysfunctionality of American women.

Bear in mind that I'm originally from the American Bible Belt, where the vast majority of women are not feminists. But yet, most of those same young women from the Bible-Belt have exhibited these same paranoid, dysfunctional traits.

Feminism isn't the root of the problem here, guys. It's the U.S. media, U.S.-dollar global hegemony, and contemporary American culture in general.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

Stay away from Western and Northern Europe. They are almost as bad as the US.

[Hero]

I spent 5 days in Holland. Lots of hot women there, though they don't age well. I was asked out by a model. Too bad I had to leave the next day.

I don't think it's dangerous there. Amsterdam reminded me of Fort Lauderdale at spring break, with all the kids partying there.

[Adama]

If you're a male feminist like me, I think The Netherlands would be a really good place. I haven't been there, but heard that the women there are feminists without the paranoia or dysfunctionality of American women.

Bear in mind that I'm originally from the American Bible Belt, where the vast majority of women are not feminists. But yet, most of those same young women from the Bible-Belt have exhibited these same paranoid, dysfunctional traits.

Feminism isn't the root of the problem here, guys. It's the U.S. media, U.S.-dollar global hegemony, and contemporary American culture in general.

I'm almost curious about whats so appealing about being a male feminist. Almost.

[DiscoPro_Joe]

I'm almost curious about whats so appealing about being a male feminist. Almost.

I was just born that way, I guess. Been like that since I was a kid.

Here's two major topic threads I started awhile back:

Why a male feminist like me can't find an American girlfriend

In defense of individualism and feminism

[Winston]

Why are you guys dissing Holland? Dutch people are some of the friendliest and most open minded I've ever met. They are also very down to earth and easy to connect with and hold conversations with. Very refreshing to say the least. Even if they are feminist, at least they are not hateful and antisocial types. They tend to be open minded, liberal, intellectual and among the least racist. I haven't been to Holland, but almost all the Dutch people I've met are like that.

[Grunt]

I view the questions here as "what about the women of" so and so nation. All the Dutch I have talked to are great people. Open, kind, they speak english well and welcome visitors. That said, we have to keep in mind that the least common denominator of any society is its divorce rate, and what sex initiates those divorces. I am quite sure that sweet little Dutch girl you met at the night club will be great fun, up until the point you marry her, then she obliterates you in divorce court.

Places such as Italy are 1st world and have spirited women, but the culture overall has a lower divorce rate of 10%. As opposed to Netherlands with a 38.3% divorce rate, or worse, America with a 42.6% divorce rate. I think divorce rates are a reflection of the strength and will of the females in the nation. I can imagine Italian women being very demanding and outspoken, yet they seem willing to stick with their man though adversity.

Conversely, Americans being a most rude and unwelcoming people on earth have a 42.6% rate, while the kind and welcoming Netherlands has a 38.3% divorce rate. I those numbers demonstrate how the "Battle of The Sexes" is going, overall. Looks like the US and Netherlands are still fighting tooth and nail, while Italy has long ago put aside such silliness.

Again, this is not to say the Netherlands is NOT a great place. I would love to visit there some day. But with my wife, not shopping for one.

[Adama]

I'm almost curious about whats so appealing about being a male feminist. Almost.

I was just born that way, I guess. Been like that since I was a kid.

Here's two major topic threads I started awhile back:

Why a male feminist like me can't find an American girlfriend

In defense of individualism and feminism

So you dont think one of the reasons many of us must look for female companionship abroad is feminism?

[SNS]

If you're a male feminist like me,

You sir, were tragically born without a brain. Let us take a look at the various remarks that famous and so-called respected feminist leaders have stated over the years:

Famous hate quotes from feminists:


"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students - Catherine Comin

"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be trained to do most things." SCUM (Society For Cutting Up Men.) - Jilly Cooper

"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it "Her". Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination."
Pornography: Men Possessing Women - Andrea Dworkin

"Men renounce whatever they have in common with women so as to experience no commonality with women; and what is left...is one piece of flesh a few inches long, the penis. The penis is the man; the man is human; the penis signifies humanity."
- Andrea Dworkin

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."
Ice And Fire - Andrea Dworkin

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." - Andrea Dworkin

"All patriarchists exalt the home and family as sacred, demanding it remain inviolate from prying eyes. Men want privacy for their violations of women... All women learn in childhood that women as a sex are men's prey." The Woman's Room - Marilyn French

"All men are rapists and that's all they are." Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.) - Marilyn French

"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE." (Her emphasis) - Marilyn French

"The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together.... Whatever its ultimate meaning, the breakup of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.... No woman should have to deny herself any opportunities because of her special responsibilities to her children...." "Functions of the Family," WOMEN: A Journal of Liberation, Fall, 1969 - Linda Gordon

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..."
- Sheila Jeffrys

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it." Former Congresswoman - Barbara Jordan

"Men's sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can 'reach WITHIN women to f**k/construct us from the inside out.' Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women's own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, 'even if she does not feel forced.'" (explicating comment profiling prevailing misandry.) - Judith Levine

"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." quoted in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies - Catherine MacKinnon l

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."
- Catherine MacKinnon

"We can't destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage." From Sisterhood Is Powerful, (ed), 1970, p. 537 - Robin Morgan

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan

Sexism is NOT the fault of women -- kill your fathers, not your mothers" -Ms. Magazine Editor. - Robin Morgan

"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex." - Katha Pollitt

SCUM Manifesto (Society for Cutting Up Men.) - Valerie Solana mad.gif
"'To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."
Scum Manifesto - Valerie Solanas

"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men..."
One Woman, One Vote, Wheeler, p. 58 - Elizabeth Stanton

"All men are good for is f***ing, and running over with a truck"
Statement made by A University of Maine Feminist Administrator, quoted by Richard Dinsmore, who brought a successful civil suit against the University in the amount of $600,000. - Unknown

[MrPeabody]

I lived in the Netherlands for two years. I will try to answer some of the previous comments. First, the Netherlands is much safer then the US. Violence is very rare, although theft is common – you have to lock up your bike anywhere you go. The Dutch are very polite, almost too polite, but hard to get to know. There is a Muslim minority, most are 2nd or third generation native Dutch, and have the same polite demeanor. Women are not obsessed with Feminism, and the workplace is casual – the sexual harassment laws and uptight US workplace doesn’t exist here. In fact, it wasn’t until this year that smoking was band in public restaurants. Biking is an important mode of transportation, so young women tend to be in good shape. People are pretty down to earth, so you are less likely to meet the neurotic US woman. Your biggest barrier will be making Dutch friends and getting into a social network. Although, the Dutch speak excellent English, in their private lives they prefer to speak Dutch, so if you don’t speak Dutch this will be a problem.

[DiscoPro_Joe]

SNS, did I mention that several of the female friends I've made here in Chongqing are feminists? Did you know that they exhibit none of the hateful or paranoid characteristics of American modern feminists?

You come across me as someone who believes that all blacks are the same, all gays are the same, all atheists are the same, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

[momopi]

There are all kinds of feminists, including sex-positive feminism which supports hetrosexual relationships, porn, and prostitution. One interesting flavor is libertarian feminists who stress on individual choice and accepting the responsbilities for your own action (or inaction). For example:

http://www.intellectualconservative.com ... ereotypes/

Domestic Violence: Behind the Stereotypes

by Wendy McElroy | November 10th, 2004

The general assumption "women are victims, men are abusers" ignores data indicating that battered husbands comprise a significant percentage of domestic violence victims.

Many of the statements surrounding last month's Domestic Violence Awareness drive were 'anti-knowledge:' things generally believed to be true even though they are false.

For example, the general assumption "women are victims, men are abusers" ignores data indicating that battered husbands comprise a significant percentage of domestic violence victims. Equally, women who do not fit the stereotype of victimhood are ignored. The fault lies with the stereotypes, not with the non-conforming victims.

The underlying ideology of domestic violence is politically-correct feminism which considers women to be oppressed by male power and the institutions of society, including traditional marriage. Accordingly, domestic violence has been subjected to a black-and-white analysis that rests upon stereotypes.

From the politically correct perspective, a domestic violence victim is a woman so traumatized by violence that she has become virtually incapable of making the choice to leave. Children or financial dependence may be complicating factors.

The domestic violence abuser is portrayed as a dominating man, but he is more than this. He has become a symbol of the violence presumed to lurk beneath the surface of 'everyman.' Some anti-domestic violence ad campaigns even target young boys in order to nip their violence in the bud.

For the many real world victims, the realities of domestic violence flatly contradict such stereotypes. For them, the characterizations serve as barriers to understanding and healing.

I know because, for over a decade, I've struggled to make sense of my own abuse and feminist explanations made that torturous process more difficult than it had to be. Domestic violence is a shattering experience because the victim is betrayed by a loved one. Self-respect is slowly stripped away until he or she is left psychologically naked, not knowing who to trust or what a normal relationship looks like.

Some domestic violence victims undoubtedly fit the description offered by PC feminism. But gender stereotypes become destructive when they cease to make general claims and purport to say something that is necessarily true of every individual woman or man, every victim or abuser.

The inadequacy of the stereotypes became clear to me through one question. "Why did I stay?" It is a question PC feminism never asks because to do so would acknowledge a fact that contradicts its theories. Namely, some victims choose to stay, which means they could choose to leave.

For PC feminists, even an intelligent and otherwise competent woman who can explain why she stays ? for example, to help a loved one through a temporary addiction ? is not deemed to have really chosen.

There are several reasons why the very idea of choice is rejected.

For one thing, staying is viewed as a bad choice. As true as this may be, however, it does not negate the fact that staying is a choice.

Another reason: with choice comes responsibility and, for some people, having victims bear any responsibility seems tantamount to blaming them for their own abuse. But being accountable for your own decisions and assuming the blame for the actions of someone else are two entirely separate matters.

No one deserves to be beaten; no one is to blame for being on the receiving end of a fist. An abuser doesn't escape legal and moral culpability so easily. But a chronic victim owes it to herself or himself to seriously explore their own participation in a relationship of continuing abuse.

This is not callousness; it is an attempt to help. The path out of victimhood may well lie in acknowledging the power of choice that lies inside each victim. Some choices are incredibly more difficult than others.

And, yet, some choice is almost always possible, even small steps like phoning an anonymous helpline or unpleasant ones like asking for help.

Only when I took responsibility for my choices was I able to answer, "Why did I stay?" As long as I denied responsibility for my actions and bought into theories that pathologized my choices out of existence, I couldn't get past that one question.

The stereotype of an abuser also does not describe the reality of many victims.

It is not merely that abusers can be women. It is also that the current stereotype seems to make no distinction on matters such as the frequency and severity of abuse. This lack of subtlety obscures rather than informs.

For example, I don't believe a man who slaps a woman (or vice versa) during a lover's quarrel is comparable to an abuser who batters on a daily basis. As unacceptable as a slap in a moment of passion may be, it is different in kind from deliberate and ongoing sadism.

In addition, I don't believe that an abuser who hits once will necessarily do it again. A close friend once became drunk and literally attacked her fiancé so viciously and without cause that the relationship almost ended on the spot. She swore off alcohol and nothing remotely similar has occurred in the years since.

The PC stereotypes that have defined the issue of domestic violence are inadequate and they are hurting victims who do not conform. Male and same-sex victims, women who choose to stay, victims of one-time abuse?these people are being ignored or damaged by the current approach. There is no excuse for ignoring the reality of victims who need desperately to be heard.

But ideology makes many so-called "victim advocates" turn a deaf ear to their cries for help.

====================


Quoting my libertarian mentor, "you have the right/freedom to vote with your feet."

If you choose not to exercise that right/freedom, then that's your problem. People who just bitch and complain get no respect because sympathy is only given the first time. Men who complain about rejection by women constantly is about as repulsive as that crazy stalker ex-GF who can't get over the breakup.