I changed my language focus

[yick]

Go on then, write down the top 100 used words in English and lets see how many come directly from Latin (as in loan words and deriviations directly sourced from a Latin word).

You and Spence can look up all the words if you want to. I have gone a different direction in my life. It doesn't matter to me as long as we can all use the words to communicate. I'm not writing dictionaries and it is unlikely that I will write any linguistics papers except if linguistics overlapped with some area I research.

Let yick look up all the words top 1000 cus for me too much work and yick spend most time here hours everyday and before learn linguist major but despite that it seem mr man corect this time bout so many enlish word deriving direct from latin bypasing norman frenchy dilect

I didn't think so, you shitebag.

[MrMan]

And now you know they don't - the reason language gets adopted is through widespread use - pretty much impossible for Latin to come directly into English in this manner, what Latin influence came into English came via French.

I am not a lexicographer and I don't do anything with etymology for a living. I got a degree in linguistics over 25 years ago. I didn't focus on English specifically. But a number of secondary sources say certain words came in through Latin, and you can find such derivations if you look etymologies for certain words in the dictionary.

I posted a video on YouTube-- not the most academic source, but from someone who seems to have an interest and perhaps some training in either specific languages or linguistics--that said that 29% of English words came from Latin and he had another slightly higher figure from French, and also another website.

If you want to show more reliable references that show that almost no words came into English from Latin bypassing French, you are free to do so. Latin was an academic and religious language. Monks read it. Even as late as Isaac Newton, Newton wrote in Latin.

You can say it is impossible for words to have come into English directly from Latin. You may believe that if you wish. You have not presented evidence for it. If you are right, then fine, just present some evidence.

There are many words for the meaning 'intelligent' in Latin the actual 'English' word for 'intelligent' is 'clever' which comes from the Frisian word 'klufer'

I suppose it is possible 'clever' came into English through Frisian, but more English people in the middle ages probably read Latin than spoke Frisian. I never heard of a Frisian reading monk in England. Academic treatises were not written in Frisian in England.

'Clever' also has a different connotation and slightly different connotation than 'intelligent.'

How could it have come into common use when most people didn't speak Latin - as in the vast majority? The word 'intelligent' is a loan word from French! What's your argument - for your argument to work - the word would have morphed into intelligent in England and then took to France but that didn't happen because French was the language of the ruling classes for 500 years in England and not the other way round.

Common people didn't speak French, but the fact that the ruling classes used it allowed for words to come in through French. Monks, priests, and scholars used Latin. There were probably far fewer of them than knights, nobility, and members of the royal court. But monks were the ones who preserved a lot of the books and scholars who read Latin dealt were thought leaders in society.

You told me I was wrong and 'disagreed with my assessment' even though you know nothing about this subject as for your knowledge of linguistics, have you thought about a refund from your alma mater or were you asleep in class most of the time?

Maybe you should call your alma mater and ask them why you didn't take enough history to know that Latin was used by monks, priests, and scholars in England and the middle ages, and that pre-Anglo-Saxon Roman occupation was not the only contact England had with the language.

If it is important to you, you could look up an etymology that shows that, maybe study Old or Middle French or whatever stage French was in when the loan word came into English. I'd imagine someone has done the research on this and might have written an academic paper on it. It could be impossible to know whether it came from French or Latin. The first use may have been around 1400, much later than the Norman conquest.

It's not 'impossible' it obviously a loan word from French -

late 14c., "the highest faculty of the mind, capacity for comprehending general truths;" c. 1400, "faculty of understanding, comprehension," from Old French intelligence (12c.) and directly from Latin intelligentia, intellegentia "understanding, knowledge, power of discerning; art, skill, taste," from intelligentem (nominative intelligens) "discerning, appreciative," present participle of intelligere "to understand, comprehend, come to know," from assimilated form of inter "between" (see inter-) + legere "choose, pick out, read," from PIE root *leg- (1) "to collect, gather," with derivatives meaning "to speak (to 'pick out words')."

Meaning "superior understanding, sagacity, quality of being intelligent" is from early 15c. Sense of "information received or imparted, news" first recorded mid-15c., especially "secret information from spies" (1580s). Meaning "a being endowed with understanding or intelligence" is late 14c. Intelligence quotient first recorded 1921 (see I.Q.).

https://www.etymonline.com/word/intelligence

I read that myself earlier today. If it obviously came from French why would you quote something that said it also came 'directly from Latin intelligentia'. Your etymologist is not coming down either way on this question. Apparently the individual allows for either explanation or both.. if that makes any sense. And this is your basis for insulting my education? If you want to die on the hill, you should at least present some evidence.

Latin was NOT one of the languages of England (as in spoken by the people....) it was the language of religion and academia - there was a reason why when the Magna Carta was written it was instantly translated into French.

That's why Bede called it 'book Latin.' But it was a language for scholars and academic terms could make its way into the language.

I never said that French words did not come into the English language. Of course they did. And a number of Latin words came in through French. The issue is whether Latin words came in apart from French. It's not a big deal to me, but some etymologies make the claim and the video and other page I posted indicated that this was the case.

How 'French' were the Normans? The use of French as the language of court doesn't prove there were no derivations directly from Latin.

Very - they were from Normandy - hence their name.

French speaking Norse. But they might have been French enough if they took French wives like Rollo did.

Well, prove all these English words that came directly from Latin - there might be 100 or a couple of hundred, no more than that. Whether it is a 100 or 200 - it's an insignificant amount within a persons vocabulary.

I don't care to prove anything. You are the one making claims contrary to the sources I cited. 100 words can be very important if they are very frequently used. Some of the ones on the list are, and others are not. If I post links to some really key Latin words in the language, the number is too small. If I point to academic terms, they aren't true English. You haven't presented any evidence to show that the evidence I presented is false. Why don't you do that if you want to continue the conversation.

The Anglo-Saxons had not conquered before that point. Their language existed on the mainland before they conquered England, too. But this doesn't have much to do with how Latin words got into the English language.

What?

Anglo-Saxon, or something similar, existed on the mainland in Europe before the Anglo-Saxon mercenaries were hired by the Celtic groups in Europe to defend them and decided to take over. In the 500's it was reasonably mutually intelligible with Saxon dialects in Europe.

[Spencer]

Jus look at 0:26 in langfocus vid see this lingist hi level expertman know truth thereby proof so much english vocab direct from latin jus like mr man say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIo-17SIkws

yick sometime you wrong so why not admision in humble man sprit and giv mr man credit and even say sorry for insult his iq

[yick]

Jus look at 0:26 in langfocus vid see this lingist hi level expertman know truth thereby proof so much english vocab direct from latin jus like mr man say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIo-17SIkws

yick sometime you wrong so why not admision in humble man sprit and giv mr man credit and even say sorry for insult his iq

Mr Man is utterly clueless on this subject, his words not mine.

You were going to prove that the first 100-800 words in English were mostly loan words from Latin - you couldn't do it because you would look more of a fool than you already do.

@Winston why are you not banning this utter cunt @Spencer ?

[Tsar]

Jus look at 0:26 in langfocus vid see this lingist hi level expertman know truth thereby proof so much english vocab direct from latin jus like mr man say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIo-17SIkws

yick sometime you wrong so why not admision in humble man sprit and giv mr man credit and even say sorry for insult his iq

Mr Man is utterly clueless on this subject, his words not mine.

You were going to prove that the first 100-800 words in English were mostly loan words from Latin - you couldn't do it because you would look more of a fool than you already do.

@Winston why are you not banning this utter cunt @Spencer ?

Wiseton no ban Spensir cuz Wu wise. No ban gud member dat b bettr writin. Nid lezon Engliz to bettr Engliz.

Translation from Spencer-Pidgin: Winston isn't banning Spencer because Winston doesn't want to ban a member without there being a very serious reason. Maybe not enough posts and time has gone by since Winston gave his warning to Spencer to improve his proper English in his posts.

[yick]

I am not a lexicographer and I don't do anything with etymology for a living. I got a degree in linguistics over 25 years ago. I didn't focus on English specifically. But a number of secondary sources say certain words came in through Latin, and you can find such derivations if you look etymologies for certain words in the dictionary.

Just clueless.

You said most English words came from Latin. Your words.

I posted a video on YouTube-- not the most academic source, but from someone who seems to have an interest and perhaps some training in either specific languages or linguistics--that said that 29% of English words came from Latin and he had another slightly higher figure from French, and also another website.

It's not 29% of words came directly through Latin - you found out there are about 100 words.

If you want to show more reliable references that show that almost no words came into English from Latin bypassing French, you are free to do so. Latin was an academic and religious language. Monks read it. Even as late as Isaac Newton, Newton wrote in Latin.

Science and academia used Latin, do you think Issac Newton spoke Latin in every day life?

You can say it is impossible for words to have come into English directly from Latin. You may believe that if you wish. You have not presented evidence for it. If you are right, then fine, just present some evidence.

I don't have to produce anything to you there is a reason why there are only 100-200 Latin derived words in English - because Latin wasn't a working language to the vast majority of the people of England - it isn't hard to work out.

I suppose it is possible 'clever' came into English through Frisian, but more English people in the middle ages probably read Latin than spoke Frisian. I never heard of a Frisian reading monk in England. Academic treatises were not written in Frisian in England.

Do you have any proof of that? I want some proof right now! East Anglian was a dialect similar to Frisian and in fact as late as the early 19th century, East Anglian rural folks and Frisian speakers were mutually intelligible to each other. Frisian speakers were plentiful in East Anglia, Wessex and Essex.

'Clever' also has a different connotation and slightly different connotation than 'intelligent.'

That's right.

Common people didn't speak French, but the fact that the ruling classes used it allowed for words to come in through French. Monks, priests, and scholars used Latin. There were probably far fewer of them than knights, nobility, and members of the royal court. But monks were the ones who preserved a lot of the books and scholars who read Latin dealt were thought leaders in society.

But how much of the population were made up of 'Monks, priests and scholars' not even 1% of the population.

Maybe you should call your alma mater and ask them why you didn't take enough history to know that Latin was used by monks, priests, and scholars in England and the middle ages, and that pre-Anglo-Saxon Roman occupation was not the only contact England had with the language.

I would put my alta mater against your online school anytime you thick twat Monks, priests etc made up such a miniscule percent of the population that it doesn't count - did you know church services in the UK - especially Catholic services were conducted in Latin up until the late 1960's? Did the priest speak to the parishioners in Latin? Nope, did the priests, altar boys and whoeever speak to each other in Latin? Nope - was theological education conducted in Latin? Nope but the services were all in Latin but hardly anyone spoke the language - what an utter shock.

I read that myself earlier today. If it obviously came from French why would you quote something that said it also came 'directly from Latin intelligentia'. Your etymologist is not coming down either way on this question. Apparently the individual allows for either explanation or both.. if that makes any sense. And this is your basis for insulting my education? If you want to die on the hill, you should at least present some evidence.

Because you left out the bit where it came from 'Old French' which shows what a disingenous, passive aggressive little tosspot you are - no wonder @Contrarian Expatriate would rip you a new one on here every day.

If it 'obviously' came from French - then your original statement that the word came directly from Latin was incorrect - again.

That's why Bede called it 'book Latin.' But it was a language for scholars and academic terms could make its way into the language.

I never said that French words did not come into the English language. Of course they did. And a number of Latin words came in through French. The issue is whether Latin words came in apart from French. It's not a big deal to me, but some etymologies make the claim and the video and other page I posted indicated that this was the case.

Well, if it isn't a 'big deal' to you then stop talking about something you know little to nothing about. You admit you know little to nothing about it but here you are blabbering on about something you know - in your own words - nothing about.

Your best case estimate was 100 words were Latin derivatives and then go on to make the case that 100 words was a significant number

You utter utter joke

French speaking Norse. But they might have been French enough if they took French wives like Rollo did.

They were culturally French, spoke French and lived there. Most of Northern Europe has Viking/Norse origins.

I don't care to prove anything.

But here you are blabbering away

You are the one making claims contrary to the sources I cited. 100 words can be very important if they are very frequently used.

Except very few if any are in the top 100-500 used words list.

Some of the ones on the list are, and others are not. If I post links to some really key Latin words in the language, the number is too small. If I point to academic terms, they aren't true English. You haven't presented any evidence to show that the evidence I presented is false. Why don't you do that if you want to continue the conversation.

The evidence you have posted is false. Why, anyone with half a brain can see it.

Anglo-Saxon, or something similar, existed on the mainland in Europe before the Anglo-Saxon mercenaries were hired by the Celtic groups in Europe to defend them and decided to take over. In the 500's it was reasonably mutually intelligible with Saxon dialects in Europe.

But not in England. And those Anglo Saxon dialects had no links with Latin or the Brythonic languages that existed in the British Isles at the time. Just a nonsensical point.

[Spencer]

Jus look at 0:26 in langfocus vid see this lingist hi level expertman know truth thereby proof so much english vocab direct from latin jus like mr man say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIo-17SIkws

yick sometime you wrong so why not admision in humble man sprit and giv mr man credit and even say sorry for insult his iq

Mr Man is utterly clueless on this subject, his words not mine.

You were going to prove that the first 100-800 words in English were mostly loan words from Latin - you couldn't do it because you would look more of a fool than you already do.

@Winston why are you not banning this utter cunt @Spencer ?

Uh no i wasnt..."Let yick look up all the words top 1000 cus for me too much work and yick spend most time here hours everyday and before learn linguist major" so please yick read and watch before make respond in hasteful ignorance

it still look that mr man is right and yick is wrong base on vid i post from expert man so again please read and watch before make respond

do not be shame of your wrongs yick for we all make mistake even you try so hard post so many words

yick please stop you call me cunt and other insultings for this forum for civil posts not attacking

[Spencer]

Jus look at 0:26 in langfocus vid see this lingist hi level expertman know truth thereby proof so much english vocab direct from latin jus like mr man say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIo-17SIkws

yick sometime you wrong so why not admision in humble man sprit and giv mr man credit and even say sorry for insult his iq

Mr Man is utterly clueless on this subject, his words not mine.

You were going to prove that the first 100-800 words in English were mostly loan words from Latin - you couldn't do it because you would look more of a fool than you already do.

@Winston why are you not banning this utter cunt @Spencer ?

Wiseton no ban Spensir cuz Wu wise. No ban gud member dat b bettr writin. Nid lezon Engliz to bettr Engliz.

Translation from Spencer-Pidgin: Winston isn't banning Spencer because Winston doesn't want to ban a member without there being a very serious reason. Maybe not enough posts and time has gone by since Winston gave his warning to Spencer to improve his proper English in his posts.

Thanks tsar and you can see i make big effort and go slow and careful for short sentence and better spellings so now get beter everyday

[yick]

Jus look at 0:26 in langfocus vid see this lingist hi level expertman know truth thereby proof so much english vocab direct from latin jus like mr man say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIo-17SIkws

yick sometime you wrong so why not admision in humble man sprit and giv mr man credit and even say sorry for insult his iq

Mr Man is utterly clueless on this subject, his words not mine.

You were going to prove that the first 100-800 words in English were mostly loan words from Latin - you couldn't do it because you would look more of a fool than you already do.

@Winston why are you not banning this utter cunt @Spencer ?

Uh no i wasnt..."Let yick look up all the words top 1000 cus for me too much work and yick spend most time here hours everyday and before learn linguist major" so please yick read and watch before make respond in hasteful ignorance

it still look that mr man is right and yick is wrong base on vid i post from expert man so again please read and watch before make respond

do not be shame of your wrongs yick for we all make mistake even you try so hard post so many words

yick please stop you call me cunt and other insultings for this forum for civil posts not attacking

@Winston ban this cunt, thanks

[Spencer]

Yick why not you be positive instead you call bad names at me and you insult other aborders and you act know it all one upper last worder man

sometime you full hot air talk yet not accept fact from video that proof mr man right and yick wrong

you here many years yick yet not seem you grow still same egomania always right call other bad name even now you 6 year older push 50 or 50+ so why not calm it down behave age aproprate and learn humbleness and upliftingness from wiseton who set supreme example we should follow so please you yick time learn step down speak soft admit wrongs say sorrys be humbleman

[yick]

Yick why not you be positive instead you call bad names at me and you insult other aborders and you act know it all one upper last worder man

sometime you full hot air talk yet not accept fact from video that proof mr man right and yick wrong

you here many years yick yet not seem you grow still same egomania always right call other bad name even now you 6 year older push 50 or 50+ so why not calm it down behave age aproprate and learn humbleness and upliftingness from wiseton who set supreme example we should follow so please you yick time learn step down speak soft admit wrongs say sorrys be humbleman

@Winston ban this cunt, you have given the twat a warning and he isn't listening so do us all a favour and ban him.

[Spencer]

Yick why not you be positive instead you call bad names at me and you insult other aborders and you act know it all one upper last worder man

sometime you full hot air talk yet not accept fact from video that proof mr man right and yick wrong

you here many years yick yet not seem you grow still same egomania always right call other bad name even now you 6 year older push 50 or 50+ so why not calm it down behave age aproprate and learn humbleness and upliftingness from wiseton who set supreme example we should follow so please you yick time learn step down speak soft admit wrongs say sorrys be humbleman

@Winston ban this cunt, you have given the twat a warning and he isn't listening so do us all a favour and ban him.

Yick why you hurt my feelings wit dirty words

i do not say bad about you and i am civil to you so please yick try be polite and kind to me and stop insulting and bulying

so let us have truce yick that you stop saying mean words at me and be gentle and kind to me and i can be same back to you for mutual respect so do you agree the truce yick

[yick]

Yick why not you be positive instead you call bad names at me and you insult other aborders and you act know it all one upper last worder man

sometime you full hot air talk yet not accept fact from video that proof mr man right and yick wrong

you here many years yick yet not seem you grow still same egomania always right call other bad name even now you 6 year older push 50 or 50+ so why not calm it down behave age aproprate and learn humbleness and upliftingness from wiseton who set supreme example we should follow so please you yick time learn step down speak soft admit wrongs say sorrys be humbleman

@Winston ban this cunt, you have given the twat a warning and he isn't listening so do us all a favour and ban him.

Yick why you hurt my feelings wit dirty words

i do not say bad about you and i am civil to you so please yick try be polite and kind to me and stop insulting and bulying

so let us have truce yick that you stop saying mean words at me and be gentle and kind to me and i can be same back to you for mutual respect so do you agree the truce yick

@Winston when are you going to ban this cunt oxygen thief from this board.... nobody wants him here, he brings no value.

[Tsar]

Spensir ask yick truce cuz no bully no insult gud to b civel. No fight cuz fight be no wise.

Translation: Spencer wants a truce with Yick because Spencer doesn't want to be insulted.

Spensir muz speak gud Engliz cuz Wiseton giv warn to Spensir. No write brok Engliz no more. No gud Engliz no truce wit Yick.

Translation: Spencer needs to start writing proper English because Winston gave him a warning. He needs to stop writing broken English. If Spencer doesn't start writing proper English then he won't get a truce with Yick.

[MrMan]

Just clueless.

You said most English words came from Latin. Your words.

I posted a video on YouTube-- not the most academic source, but from someone who seems to have an interest and perhaps some training in either specific languages or linguistics--that said that 29% of English words came from Latin and he had another slightly higher figure from French, and also another website.

Who is clueless. I did not say most English words came from Latin. That would be a ridiculous assertion.

I pointed out that a video I linked to said 29% of words came from Latin. There was a higher percentage from French. You posted it yourself. I don't know if that number is right or not. But 29% is not 'most English words'. If you count Latin words that came in through French... maybe... maybe not. I don't know.

It's not 29% of words came directly through Latin - you found out there are about 100 words.

I posted a link to a video that said it was 29%. I posted a website with a non-exhaustive list of words that came into Latin through English. I don't know the percentages. I suppose you could sit around with a dictionary and count, but etymologists do not have exhaustive information either.

I disagreed with this:

Very few Latin words came into English directly from Latin itself,

100 words is not 'very few', even if the video is overstated.

I don't have to produce anything to you there is a reason why there are only 100-200 Latin derived words in English - because Latin wasn't a working language to the vast majority of the people of England - it isn't hard to work out.

I would imagine those numbers are way too long, but if you are interested, you can research it yourself. But 100 words is not 'very few' like you said, especially if many of them fall into the 'basic English' category.

But how much of the population were made up of 'Monks, priests and scholars' not even 1% of the population. A bit more than that from what I've read, but these were the literate portion of the population that preserved learning and many of the thought leaders discussed intellectual ideas in Latin.

Because you left out the bit where it came from 'Old French' which shows what a disingenous, passive aggressive little tosspot you are - no wonder @Contrarian Expatriate would rip you a new one on here every day.

I read that after I posted about Latin. But look at the quote. The etymologist says it came from both. How could they say it came in from one way or another? Even if they had the earliest quote in English saying it came from French or Latin, that would not prove there was no earlier usage, a problem with etymology.

If it 'obviously' came from French - then your original statement that the word came directly from Latin was incorrect - again.

I did not say it obviously came from French. I wrote 'if it obviously came from French....'

That's why Bede called it 'book Latin.' But it was a language for scholars and academic terms could make its way into the language.

Well, if it isn't a 'big deal' to you then stop talking about something you know little to nothing about. You admit you know little to nothing about it but here you are blabbering on about something you know - in your own words - nothing about.

Because you are the one who did the blabbering. You said very few words came in from Latin. I showed you evidence to the contrary. You start throwing out straw man arguments and insulting my education. I never said words did not come in through French. I never said Latin words came in through Roman contact pre-Anglo-Saxon (though I would expect a few could have survived).

Your best case estimate was 100 words were Latin derivatives and then go on to make the case that 100 words was a significant number

I respectfully disagreed with your assertions. showed two sources. One that had about 100 words. The other that claimed 29% of words came from Latin and a larger portion from French. Either one is evidence against your assertion that very few words came into English from Latin.

I did not say I know nothing about the topic. I'm not a specialist in that area, but I know a little about it. You talk about being disingenous. I never said I knew nothing about it.

Maybe you should look up 'few' in the English dictionary.

You were wrong. I pointed it out respectfully, and you started insulting

You utter utter joke

I pointed out you were wrong about something in a respectful manner. Maybe it bruised your ego. You didn't like it so you insult, like you did again.

But here you are blabbering away

You are just being rude and making yourself look bad.

You are the one making claims contrary to the sources I cited. 100 words can be very important if they are very frequently used.

Except very few if any are in the top 100-500 used words list. [/quote]

Try to spin it where you aren't wrong. Hundreds of words, many of them core words in the language are not 'very few.' Why insult people over such things? Is your ego that sensitive?

Some of the ones on the list are, and others are not. If I post links to some really key Latin words in the language, the number is too small. If I point to academic terms, they aren't true English. You haven't presented any evidence to show that the evidence I presented is false. Why don't you do that if you want to continue the conversation.

The evidence you have posted is false. Why, anyone with half a brain can see it.

Being rude and insulting is just you making yourself look bad. Be nice.

The percentage of Latin words might be 29% if you include a lot of technical terms. It is probably a lot higher than the 100 words. Neither is 'very few.'

Anglo-Saxon, or something similar, existed on the mainland in Europe before the Anglo-Saxon mercenaries were hired by the Celtic groups in Europe to defend them and decided to take over. In the 500's it was reasonably mutually intelligible with Saxon dialects in Europe.

But not in England. And those Anglo Saxon dialects had no links with Latin or the Brythonic languages that existed in the British Isles at the time. Just a nonsensical point.

Your point has little or nothing to do with my post. I was pointing out that Anglo-Saxon existed (or whatever they called it) prior to their conquest of English. I did not say whether there was significant contact between the two languages before the Celtic groups hired the Saxons after the Romans left.