Is early to bed and early to rise healthier for you?

[Winston]

Momopi, or anyone else,

Chinese doctors here and Western holistic doctors say that the hours of the night before midnight are twice as important as the hours after midnight. Therefore, it's important to sleep before midnight in order to get good effective sleep and health. If you go to bed after midnight, you are less healthy. They say this is common knowledge in Taiwan and throughout history.

Is that true? If so, what is the basis behind it?

I can't imagine Western science having a logical explanation for this, even if it's true.

But I do notice that if I sleep before midnight that my rest and overall feeling is better the next day, regardless of the length of sleep.

Momopi, even though you don't believe in anything metaphysical or holistic, what's your take on this?

Also Momopi, as a strict materialist, do you believe in chi and Chinese herbal medicine? Some of that stuff has no basis in the Western paradigm, even if it works. So do you believe that herbal medicine has any real value, or is it all placebo in your view?

Is it possible that some things work without conventional Western scientific explanation? If so, how?

[Winston]

Momopi? Did you see the above? I've retitled the thread with your name in it.

[globetrotter]

It's based upon our biology, circadian rhythms, and common sense.

People here in rural China are in bed by 9:30. Sure, there are night owls - the mahjong players, people out a bit late dancing, but most people are in bed by 9:30, which is the time most people were in bed before TV was invented in the 1950's. Farmers go to bed at that time because they are up very early with the livestock, everyone else cued off of that schedule. Before late night TV few people stayed up past 9:30.

I have called women I dated and they went to bed at 8:00 pm, got up to go to the gym at 4:30 or such.

[momopi]

Momopi, or anyone else,
Chinese doctors here and Western holistic doctors say that the hours of the night before midnight are twice as important as the hours after midnight. Therefore, it's important to sleep before midnight in order to get good effective sleep and health. If you go to bed after midnight, you are less healthy. They say this is common knowledge in Taiwan and throughout history.
Is that true? If so, what is the basis behind it?

I am NOT a doctor, nor am I a trained medical professional. You can read about sleep cycles here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep#Opti ... _in_humans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm

Traditional Chinese time keeping use 12 double hours. The precise midnight point on your clock is a western concept, the Chinese used 11pm-1am "Hour of the Rat". I'm not a doc, but am pretty sure that Chinese doctors in the old days didn't tell their patients the first half of the Hour of the Rat is twice as important than the latter half in their daily sleep.

Momopi, even though you don't believe in anything metaphysical or holistic, what's your take on this?
Also Momopi, as a strict materialist, do you believe in chi and Chinese herbal medicine? Some of that stuff has no basis in the Western paradigm, even if it works. So do you believe that herbal medicine has any real value, or is it all placebo in your view?

1. If you broke your leg, would you go see the metaphysical/holistic healer, or the emergency room?
2. There are thousands of medicinal herbs with various chemical compounds. It'd be silly to say "it's all placebo".
3. Yes, some treatments have no medicinal value except placebo effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_top ... physiology
4. Herbal medicine doesn't have to be Chinese. Humans have used herbs for thousands of years, up to 1950s pharmacy students learned pharmacognosy, and it's still a qualified major at many universities today: http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/undergrad/m ... ology.html

IMO too many people have their heads stuck up their arse with the "ancient Chinese secret" crap. I'm helping my Taiwanese acupuncture doctor set up his new clinic right now, and we're installing several Nintendo Wii's (Wii Fit). Who says TCM has to be burning cauldrons of noxious herbs?

Is it possible that some things work without conventional Western scientific explanation? If so, how?

1. A scientific explanation does not have to come from conventional western sources.
2. Everything have a scientific explanation, there are no exceptions.
3. Scientific research cost resources, and answers exist for those willing to pay for it. Before asking "explain why...", ask yourself what you're willing to pay for the answer.

[Winston]

You don't have to pay for scientific answers. They are all over the web and in books and videos.

Depends on who you want to listen to.

Why do you say everything has a scientific explanation? Some things don't.

For example, women who live together menstruate in similar cycles. People know that. But there's no scientific explanation that can explain why fully.

Science still doesn't understand why we dream either.

Lots of things are unknown. Why do you dislike mysteries? I love them.

You mentioned acupuncture. It has no western scientific explanation, and the meridian map in acupuncture is NOT part of western medical science.

But it does work for some people, no doubt. Otherwise, no one would use it. That's common sense.

[Winston]

Momopi,
So do you mean that you don't agree with Chinese doctors that sleeping early matters? Why or why not?

What my uncle, a herbalist, told me was that between 10pm and 1am is an imperative time where you must rest your body, even if you're not sleepy, you got to at least lay down during those hours for they are critical.

Do you not agree with that? I was told that this is ancient Chinese wisdom.

What are these hours of the rat you're talking about from 11pm to 1am? Is it something similar?

So basically, you don't think there is any difference in health between sleeping between 9pm to 5am vs. 4am to 12noon?

Can you clarify?

[momopi]

Winston, I counted 8 question marks. Not everyone has unlimited time to answer each and every question in detail.

Traditional Chinese time keeping used 12 double hours (時辰), or 100 ke (刻) per day at 14 min 24 sec each:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthly_Branches
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ke_(unit)

Under the double-hour system, the day begins at hour of Zi (子時), aka hour of the rat, 11pm-1am.

10pm would be the midpoint during hour of Hai (亥時), aka hour of the pig, 9pm-11pm.

I agree that "Ancient Chinese Wisdom" probably told people to get to bed within reasonable time after dark. But I doubt they specified "get to bed by mid point during hour of Hai" (10pm). If they did specify a time, it's more likely that they used Chinese double hours according to Chinese cultural context. i.e. TCM claims that your liver is purifying the blood during Hour of Chou (丑時) 1am-3am, not "the liver is busy working at 1:45am".

http://www.acupuncture-and-chinese-medi ... dians.html

The meridian system of body/organs functions by time of the day is basically pre-science chronobiology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype

People have different biological rhythms, some need more sleep and others need less. Some people are morning person and others are night owls. I don't think there's a specific "best time" for bed, unless if you're using a broad range that would apply to most people.

Lots of things are unknown. Why do you dislike mysteries? I love them.

Hardly. Prescientific cultural constructs are fascinating from anthropology perspective. But once you strip away the cultural context and "metaphysical thinking", the usefulness of whatever that's left will determine its practical value. If I were standing at the beach with Jesus today and saw him multiply fish to feed 5000+ people, I'd ask him to be my business partner in a mariscos restaurant. Hey, if he can multiply fish, why not shrimp, lobster, and crab?

[Winston]

So why is sleeping early and rising early more healthy for you? Even Benjamin Franklin said: "Early to bed and early to rise makes one healthy, wealthy and wise."

Is there a scientific reason for that, or is it metaphysical, having to do with our alignment to natural cycles and the sun?

If it's natural to sleep early, then why do owls, and sometimes mountain lions, stay up all night?

I'm having a problem with my sleeping cycle. I don't seem to be able to sleep a night, only in the day. I don't know why. But it's very hard to break this cycle. The only way I can do it is by not sleeping all night and all day, so I can sleep early the next day. But that's excruciating, because it involves fighting off drowsiness and the urge to sleep all morning and all afternoon, which is VERY UNPLEASANT and involves slapping my face many times. I hate that. However, even when I do that, my "stay up all night and sleep all morning" cycle RETURNS AGAIN in 2 or 3 days. I can't seem to maintain an "early to bed, early to rise" cycle for some reason.

Why is that? Are some people night owls by nature and can't change that? If so, why?

Oddly, this is only a big problem in Taiwan. In the Philippines, I had no problem falling asleep at night, because I was so fatigued from the sweating and humidity, even if I stayed up late. But in dryer climates, even in the US, I seem to gravitate toward sleeping in the early morning and waking up in the afternoon. Why is that?

The worst thing about this, is that when I wake up in the afternoon, I tend to feel terrible, exhausted, and irritated, to the point where it takes me 1 to 2 hours to be fully awake. But if I sleep early and rise early, I tend to wake up with a clearer state of mind. Therefore, it does seem that the same 8 hours of sleep affects you differently if you sleep in the night as opposed to in the day, doesn't it? Why is that?

[Winston]

Here is a friend's take on it:

From what I've learned, I need complete darkness to sleep, or the light causes some kind of reaction in the brain that causes a less restful sleep. Also, I noticed the same thing from living in Florida as you did from living in the Phillipines...because I was sweating all of the time, I slept better. Moving up to Washington caused me to be restless unless I did some strenuous exercise...
I've been doing high raw food in my diet and I do sleep better...

[PaulB]

Exposure to sunlight causes production of endorphins and serotonin, chemicals that make you feel good. That's likely why you feel better when you sleep before midnight.

When you're waking up in the afternoon feeling like shit, it's because you're sleep deprived or waking up during deep sleep, or a combination of the two. If it's too light and/or too noisy, which often are problems during daytime hours, chances are you're not getting good rest.

There are ways to get around all of these problems but in general, early to bed and early to rise (typically the schedule that is quietest, darkest, and exposes you to the most sunlight) is healthiest.

Read up on sleep cycles, circadian rhythm, etc. I recommend buying a blue light therapy device and something that will track your sleep. They'll help you manage your sleeping schedule much more effectively than your slapping-face technique.

[Winston]

For some reason, I can't sleep at night in Taiwan, even if I correct my sleeping cycle. I've always felt "out of balance" in Taiwan.

I now sleep at 6am and wake up at 3 or 4pm everyday. Sometimes I sleep at 9am and get up at 6pm too. I don't know why my cycle here is totally out of whack. I really hate sleeping away the whole day like that.

It's terrible and really hard to break the cycle. But even when I do by fighting drowsiness all day, I go right back to it again the next day! It's like my body wants an upside down cycle here. It's really weird.

Something is really out of balance in my body here. I don't know what it might be. It's really weird. Some things in life are just unexplainable.

[Jester]

It's based upon our biology, circadian rhythms, and common sense.

People here in rural China are in bed by 9:30. Sure, there are night owls - the mahjong players, people out a bit late dancing, but most people are in bed by 9:30, which is the time most people were in bed before TV was invented in the 1950's. Farmers go to bed at that time because they are up very early with the livestock, everyone else cued off of that schedule. Before late night TV few people stayed up past 9:30.

I have called women I dated and they went to bed at 8:00 pm, got up to go to the gym at 4:30 or such.

This is really helpful to hear. I am trying to improve habits and appreciate positive examples like this.

[Jester]

I now sleep at 6am and wake up at 3 or 4pm everyday. Sometimes I sleep at 9am and get up at 6pm too. I don't know why my cycle here is totally out of whack. I really hate sleeping away the whole day like that.

It's terrible and really hard to break the cycle. But even when I do by fighting drowsiness all day, I go right back to it again the next day! It's like my body wants an upside down cycle here. It's really weird.

The only thing that I succesfully use to fight this, is to schedule appointments. My housekeeper comes one day in the morning (today), my assistant three mornings, usually MWF, etc. So I have to be up, groomed, dressed, alert, looking and smelling good before they walk in .

Next step: I am trying to build toward exercise classes or partners. Once those are locked in I will have a schedule that is hard to break. Zumba class is full of in-shape women , but need a little more fitness to last through a class. Likewise yoga, boxing, tennis.

OK - for starters, tomorrow morning 5am up and drive to the hiking trail; then 630am breakfast at a nice restaurant with a newspaper (got to do some self-pampering); then 7:30am quickly shower and dress before assistant is here. Will keep her till 5pm, then try to exercise again - maybe just the elliptical downstairs in the in-house gym, then saltwater bath, Pranic Energy meditation CD, then a glass of wine or dinner out or websurf - whatever I feel like. And back in bed to do it again.

I've had no exercise for days, sleeping tonight will be hard, but I will try food, alcohol plus herbal extract. Around midnight or before. Alarm is already set, gymclothes laid out.

I'll update tomorrow.

PS Doing this for you Winston!!!! (not that you asked...)

[ph_visitor]

Momopi, or anyone else,

Chinese doctors here and Western holistic doctors say that the hours of the night before midnight are twice as important as the hours after midnight. Therefore, it's important to sleep before midnight in order to get good effective sleep and health. If you go to bed after midnight, you are less healthy. They say this is common knowledge in Taiwan and throughout history.

Is that true? If so, what is the basis behind it?

I can't imagine Western science having a logical explanation for this, even if it's true.

But I do notice that if I sleep before midnight that my rest and overall feeling is better the next day, regardless of the length of sleep.

Let's see, if I recall you complain endlessly about various ailments and sensitivities to everything.

You also stay up late in to the early morning and do not sleep regularly or go to bed at a normal hour.

Hello?

Figure it out.

I can't imagine Western science having a logical explanation for this, even if it's true.

Do you think that most of humanity going to bed before 9:30 pm before TV was invented, was some sort of brainwashing accident?

No.

It was done for a reason. It's healthier and better for you. Everyone should be in bed by 10:00 and get up at 5:00 to 7:00. Most of the USA's illnesses would go away. Late night TV talk shows are bad for your health. Heck, TV is bad just toss it.

There are many studies of swing-shift and 3rd Shift workers that show all sorts of ailments. Working at night is bad for your health just on the sleep shifting. Shorter life span, more stress, all sorts of illnesses, you name it.

This is not new, not a surprise, and it is well documented by Western Science and medicine.

Most [note 'most'. not 'all] other animals and mammals sleep at night, so it makes sense that we would also. Most animals are NOT nocturnal. It is dark, you cannot see food to catch and eat, it's colder and you want to hunker in the cave and chill until dawn and the warmth of the sun.

This is not news.

[Winston]

I agree with you globetrotter, but what is the logical/scientific reason why "early to bed and early to rise" is healthier for you and more in balance with everything?