Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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Better to retire early and regret it and take the consequences and risks, then to wait too long and spend the rest of your life regretting all the wasted time. There's no comparison. Remember the quote: "You regret more what you didn't do than what you did."
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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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Winston wrote:
April 21st, 2020, 3:35 am
Better to retire early and regret it and take the consequences and risks, then to wait too long and spend the rest of your life regretting all the wasted time. There's no comparison. Remember the quote: "You regret more what you didn't do than what you did."
It depends if you can afford to retire or not.
I have seen Western men in Thailand, running out of money and were forced to go back to their own countries - I also hear frequently about men, who did not go home and preferred a last bottle of whisky and were jumping out of a window in a high rise apartment building.
Others got very sick and died a painful death, unable to pay for any medical help etc.

Be careful when you do this calculation of early retirement.
It is nothing worse than to retire early, enjoy a dream of a life doing nothing, but running out of money and when getting old you have to do some low-income job and living of benefits and food coupons to survive.

Everybody has to decide that for himself...

My job was not bad in Japan, I retired with 65, qualified for full pension out of my European contract and I am now financially secure up to end of life. Nothing to worry about housing, medical fees, no loans, no need to look at any price tag when buying something or eating in a restaurant...believe me this is a good feeling....
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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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But Yohan, don't you regret not retirning earlier? Also some people even if they run out of money, are protected. The universe or God helps them out and finds a way for them to continue to exist. There are many stories like that too, which indicates that a higher power is at work or a person's destiny is to be in that country even if he or she has no money. Many spiritual explorers had no money yet the universe protected them during their journey.

Some examples: Like the great founder of Theosopher, Helena P. Blavatsky. She left Russia at 18 with no money yet the universe protected her so she could fulfill her destiny without starving. The author of "The Power of Now", Eckhart Tolle, didn't work for two years, but he didn't starve. The universe brought people to help feed him and protect him so he could fulfill his destiny in writing one of the best selling spiritual books of all time. Everyone's destiny is different. Most of life is destined and predetermined, just like Ancient Romans and Greeks believe. I found that to be true. Only Americans think everything is a choice and controllable.

You gotta look at the big picture and see different possibilities. With all your life experience Yohan, you should have seen cases on all sides. I'm an old soul so I do.
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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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Winston wrote:
April 21st, 2020, 10:48 pm
But Yohan, don't you regret not retirning earlier? Also some people even if they run out of money, are protected. The universe or God helps them out and finds a way for them to continue to exist.
This is a good question, Winston, but there is a difference if you think about your future which is unclear - or if you years later look back and see what happened to you in your past.

I don't believe in protection by the universe and I do not believe in God...

If you are a young woman and you run out of money, you will find some boys for sure to help you out - however as a young man like me in Europe, with nothing and with a zero support I had no other choice but to work - later on I even had debts meeting the wrong friends, and also no luck with women...

I made the decision to leave Europe and to start again in Asia.. Retirement? I could only dream of it, and indeed, I was dreaming of retirement every day...but it was not possible.

I was lucky in Asia, I have now a good family and so I am not alone. I could manage a working contract with European conditions. My job was OK, I received a good pay and had long vacation of 6 fully paid weeks, so I could travel around in Asia - and now I have a good retirement allowance, my own apartment units in Japan and Thailand, car, motorcycle, very good health insurance up to end of life.... I really cannot complain.

To retire earlier was a financial risk for me, so I continued - I am risk-averse due to bad experiences in my past.

I have seen too many Western foreigners who failed in Asia. - You said 'protected to continue to exist' - yes, to exist but how to exist without any reasonable financial stability, without any social security...what life is this?

I know several Western foreigners in Thailand who 'exist' after early retirement, but their life is really poor and age is getting a problem for all of them - being young, you might find a way out, but if you are old you might find yourself in troubles.

If you ask me, about my own situation, NOT to retire earlier was the best choice for me. I do not regret that I did not retire earlier.
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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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Early retirement is a term that I don't like. I consider it permanently leaving the rat race. I did it 3 years ago and I have ZERO regrets.

Many people who leave the rat race find fun jobs just to keep them socializing and to earn a little financial cushion so as to not deplete their nest eggs.

It is a lifestyle of privilege that scant few get to enjoy so I highly recommend it. You won't regret it!
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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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Yohan makes a good point - men retire to places like Thailand and do stupid shit like get married, have children (when they're too old to be running around after them...) or hit the booze on a daily basis - if you come from the UK, Germany, Scandinavia etc - the weather itself lends itself to drinking lots if you are from a Northern European culture - so basically - for a lot of men who go out there with healthy prospects and finances - they end up losing it all in a lot of cases.

I think you have to keep 'busy' I wouldn't want to retire early because I have a half between as it is - I work very low hours here in Asia and it's a nice life so I suppose that's CE's version of leaving the Rat Race - but if you're going to go and get married and have kids wherever you land up, you are jumping straight back into it - the rat race exists wherever you end up.
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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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Yohan wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 11:13 am
Winston wrote:
April 21st, 2020, 10:48 pm
But Yohan, don't you regret not retirning earlier? Also some people even if they run out of money, are protected. The universe or God helps them out and finds a way for them to continue to exist.
This is a good question, Winston, but there is a difference if you think about your future which is unclear - or if you years later look back and see what happened to you in your past.

I don't believe in protection by the universe and I do not believe in God...

If you are a young woman and you run out of money, you will find some boys for sure to help you out - however as a young man like me in Europe, with nothing and with a zero support I had no other choice but to work - later on I even had debts meeting the wrong friends, and also no luck with women...

I made the decision to leave Europe and to start again in Asia.. Retirement? I could only dream of it, and indeed, I was dreaming of retirement every day...but it was not possible.

I was lucky in Asia, I have now a good family and so I am not alone. I could manage a working contract with European conditions. My job was OK, I received a good pay and had long vacation of 6 fully paid weeks, so I could travel around in Asia - and now I have a good retirement allowance, my own apartment units in Japan and Thailand, car, motorcycle, very good health insurance up to end of life.... I really cannot complain.

To retire earlier was a financial risk for me, so I continued - I am risk-averse due to bad experiences in my past.

I have seen too many Western foreigners who failed in Asia. - You said 'protected to continue to exist' - yes, to exist but how to exist without any reasonable financial stability, without any social security...what life is this?

I know several Western foreigners in Thailand who 'exist' after early retirement, but their life is really poor and age is getting a problem for all of them - being young, you might find a way out, but if you are old you might find yourself in troubles.

If you ask me, about my own situation, NOT to retire earlier was the best choice for me. I do not regret that I did not retire earlier.
@Yohan you make a good point. Moving abroad to discover a new culture and possibly get a better life standard doesn't equate to living in paradise. A man, especially, certainly needs to find something to do - a local job or an online/mobile activity - else whatever savings he has will be gone soon!

I found myself in the same situation. When I accepted to work here in Pasay, I was offered a delayed start because my Exec was himself on holiday and the Manager wanted me to start with him. I could have spent at least another 2 weeks doing absolutely nothing (oh well, doing "that thing" :) ) but I said no, I wanted the contract and the start there and then. I started from the following Monday, I still had a bit of jet lag in me.

It kind of struck me that I was one of the lucky one, to have a legit job in the Philippines. In this country, as it is surely in Thailand and other SEA places, the jobs a foreigner can have is very limited. Chefs are a special class because of the many international resort groups present. I also met at least half a dozen foreign "pizza chefs", some of whom Italian, who were working illegally for a pay very close to that of a Filipino equivalent. There were in there for the adventure, surely not for the money. Only one of them dared admit that his lifestyle wasn't that great and the working hours were horrible.

I understand you migrated to Japan in a different time from now. Were jobs easier to find in Japan compared to now? May I ask you what kind of jobs you found? And, for a bit of national pride, I guess you must have heard of Salvatore Cuomo? He is an Italian-Japanese chef who opened successful pizza franchises all over Asia. He even owns two restaurants here in Manila!

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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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Yohan,
It doesn't matter if you believe in God or not. It doesn't change the fact that higher powers exist that we don't understand. There are lots of examples and good reasons to believe that, which I can go into for hours and have in the past. Any devout Christian can also give you many examples that indicate a higher power exists. So can many New Agers. Your denial of it doesn't change the truth of it, neither does denying the Holocaust erase the event from history if it really occurred. Denial is not a valid argument, and just because you are ignorant of the evidence and examples, or choose to deny them or ignore them, doesn't mean they don't exist. We all know that. Plus most men I know your age who are wise and have a lot of life experience usually conclude that a higher power of some sort must exist, based on all their life experience and many stories, even if they aren't religious, they still see the obvious. It's a pity you aren't as wise as other men I talk to who are your age and have a lot of meaningful stories to share. No wonder why you prefer Asia, narrow minded types tend to. No offense.

Anyhow, besides that, everyone has different karma, luck, energy, destiny, etc. So we cannot paint a broad brush and say that what works for you or one guy works for everyone. We all know that.

Plus even if a guy is broke and goes overseas, he can still make a living by getting a job overseas, teaching English, or being an errand boy for other expats like my friend Alex does. Or finding a wife to support you. Or having rich parents help you out. Or having a portable online income. Etc. Everyone's life is different and everything happens for a reason. What's meant to be will happen one way or another. It happens naturally, you don't make it happen with force or smart tactics. Just like pretty much all marriages do, they just happen naturally, you don't make them happen with sheer force or brilliant tactics. That's how life is.

So there's no advice or guideline that applies to everyone. Nor can anyone predict anything that will happen to anyone with certainty. The universe loves to surprise us and show us how unpredictable life is and show us exceptions that don't fit our beliefs and expectations. It does that all the time. So you can't put everything into a formula or box about how you have to do this or that or follow this advice, etc. Lots of people in history have taken foolish risks and gotten away with it, if they were following their destiny, then it works out.

In your long life, Yoha, did it ever occur to you, like it usually does to other men your age, that INFORMATION can NEVER EVER come from RANDOMNESS? For example, if you saw the words "Yohan was here" carved on a rock in the middle of the desert, would you conclude that it was carved by random forces of nature, or by an intelligent sentient being? Of course the latter right? Now, since the program in your DNA code is infinitely huge, and contain much more information than the Library of Congress, many times more, why would you assume that an entire library of intelligent coding and information could be made by random forces, if a simple "Yohan was here" carved on a rock could not? To assume that an entire library of information could be created randomly is DUMBER than DUMB isn't it? Even a 5 year old child knows better than that.

So why do so many "educated" atheist men buy into it if it's 1000 percent illogical? Perhaps, as Neo says, you hate God for some tragedy in your life or the suffering you've experienced? When you dig deep down into an Atheist's motivation, that's usually what it comes down to. Either that, or the fact that many men don't like the concept of a God watching them and taking account of everything they do. They wanna be free of the control of a father, to be independent and do whatever they want. Thus, Atheism has psychological appeal to men (more so than women) even if it makes no sense and is impossible and wrong.

Just something to think about. Other men your age Yohan, have considered stuff like that. I don't know why you are way behind the curve. I'd had a lot of deep meaningful discussions with expat men your age, sometimes for hours, which have been very enlightening and far deeper than anything a young person could talk about. So I don't get why you are more narrow and closed minded and rigid and don't see the big picture that wiser men your age can? No offense. Just an honest observation based on experience.
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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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The article is a silly fear mongering article. If I get some time I'll go back through each of it's silly premises. There is no reason it's either retirement or work. If you have a skill that is in demand you can have both all your life. Most jobs now are not permanent anyway. Many jobs are contract jobs and companies hire and fire frequently. It's very simple, you work when a great opportunity arises or maybe you just need money. After you've saved enough money, you then can take off and travel or pursue other interests. It's really not that hard. Just save your money when you work and don't spend too much when you don't work.
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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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Winston wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 11:43 pm
Yohan,
It doesn't matter if you believe in God or not. It doesn't change the fact that higher powers exist that we don't understand. There are lots of examples and good reasons to believe that, which I can go into for hours and have in the past........
What a condescending post. And they say atheists are the arrogant ones.

You know, it's very common--arguably the norm--for atheists in Western countries to have grown up in a religious environment prior to becoming atheist. All those hours of Sunday school and yet they still came to a different conclusion about the universe. Do you ever wonder why? Is it because they let their hearts become filled with hate?

Do you ever wonder what percent of a population would still be religious if they spent the same amount of time, the same amount of their childhood in atheist indoctrination classes, with equal exposure to both ways of thinking?
In your long life, Yoha, did it ever occur to you, like it usually does to other men your age, that INFORMATION can NEVER EVER come from RANDOMNESS?
This is a strawman on two levels. Not only did Yohan not say that, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that information comes from randomness. Who says that?
Most atheists believe that information can come from evolution, which is not a random process.
you hate God for some tragedy in your life or the suffering you've experienced? When you dig deep down into an Atheist's motivation, that's usually what it comes down to.
Wow, I never knew. So is everyone over in Japan hating on God for their life's suffering? Since most of the population of that land is effectively atheist.
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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

Post by Winston »

flowerthief00 wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 4:17 am
Winston wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 11:43 pm
Yohan,
It doesn't matter if you believe in God or not. It doesn't change the fact that higher powers exist that we don't understand. There are lots of examples and good reasons to believe that, which I can go into for hours and have in the past........
What a condescending post. And they say atheists are the arrogant ones.

You know, it's very common--arguably the norm--for atheists in Western countries to have grown up in a religious environment prior to becoming atheist. All those hours of Sunday school and yet they still came to a different conclusion about the universe. Do you ever wonder why? Is it because they let their hearts become filled with hate?

Do you ever wonder what percent of a population would still be religious if they spent the same amount of time, the same amount of their childhood in atheist indoctrination classes, with equal exposure to both ways of thinking?
In your long life, Yoha, did it ever occur to you, like it usually does to other men your age, that INFORMATION can NEVER EVER come from RANDOMNESS?
This is a strawman on two levels. Not only did Yohan not say that, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that information comes from randomness. Who says that?
Most atheists believe that information can come from evolution, which is not a random process.
you hate God for some tragedy in your life or the suffering you've experienced? When you dig deep down into an Atheist's motivation, that's usually what it comes down to.
Wow, I never knew. So is everyone over in Japan hating on God for their life's suffering? Since most of the population of that land is effectively atheist.
No. Just stating the truth. All wise people I've met reject Atheism and see it for what it is. Unless they are Buddhists.

It's not a straw man. It's true. Atheists believe everything came from randomness, including evolution. The first self-replicating cell too. Even the discoverer of DNA, Francis Cricke, said DNA Is too complex to come from evolution. Do some research man.

Bottom line: INFORMATION CAN NEVER COME FROM RANDOMNESS. IT CAN ONLY COME FROM AN INTELLIGENT AGENT OR CAUSATION. Neither can design, order, complexity, or patterns. 100 percent Impossible.

That's a THORN in the side of you Atheists that you can NEVER get out. If evolution happened, it had to be an intelligent process, guided by consciousness, not random mutations or chance. Design is always top down, never bottom up.

Atheists do believe that we are an accident created when lightning hit a pool of mud on early Earth. That is what science teaches in schools. I didn't make it up. They claim it's a fact but it is not. It's never been proven, not even a little, so to declare it a fact is a SUPER BALD FACED LIE. Ask @Neo or @MrMan. So yes, that theory is a form of "randomness", not intelligent creation or design.

Japanese people believe in karma and honor and obey their culture and customs and whatever moral laws it has. That's why Japanese are moral. They are not selfish and do not live for themselves. But Americans are different. They are selfish and live for themselves. They have to have a reason to be moral. Like religion. That's why religion is more important in America than Japan. Japan also has Zen and Shintoism too which teaches them to respect life, as well as their social culture. Japanese not individualists who are self serving. Americans are. So they are different and need different control systems. That's why government and cops in America have to be bullies and dicks, but cops in Japan do not.

Have you seen videos of Dr. Stephen Meyer? He totally destroys atheism and randomness. He has a PhD from Cambridge and is the best speaker on this subject of intelligent design. Please see this short series called Science Uprising, each episode is only 10 minutes. It totally destroys atheism, materialism, and the teaching that we are a meaningless cosmic accident. Dr. Meyer is featured in it. See the playlist below.

Science Uprising Playlist
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... je4p7rAE7-
Well-known scientists have been preaching a materialistic worldview rather than presenting the public with all the evidence. We are here to change that. The objective scientific evidence does not prove our universe is blind and purposeless. It does not show we are simply meat machines. It does not prove that evolutionary mechanisms can completely account for the diversity of life on earth.

Think for yourself and make an informed decision.

Be sure to visit https://scienceuprising.com/ to find more videos and explore related articles and books.
Watch the whole series. Each episode is only 10 min so it won't take long to get through. It will convince you that your atheism is 1000 percent wrong and you will never look back to it again. Ever. It's game over for atheists.

Also watch this documentary from Illustra Media called "Unlocking the Mysteries of Life". If listen to every point it makes, you are guaranteed to totally disavow your atheism for good. Guaranteed. Watch it all and see. Your paradigm will never be the same again. That goes for you too Yohan. Watch it please, and the playlist above too. Then you will agree with me for sure that the debate is over and you guys have lost and need a new paradigm.

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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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Btw flowerthief00.

I've digged into many atheists lives and yes, they are usually atheists for two reasons, one or both, which they will admit if you probe them about it. They are:

1. They are angry at God for the suffering and tragedies and pain in their lives. Or for the suffering of others, the world, and their loved ones. Which is understandable of course. We've all blamed God for our problems to some degree.

2. They don't like the idea of being accountable to a deity or a creator. They want to be free to do whatever they want without accountability. Especially men because men like to be independent from their fathers. That's why more men than women become atheists. They hate the idea of a cosmic dictator and want their independenc to do whatever they want. Again, this is understandable. Even @Neo has spoken of this motive frequently.

Atheists will confess to these two if you ask them. They will admit that, no they do not want there to be a God either. Talk to them and you will see. They will admit it all if you pressure them to. So no, I did not make it up. It's not a straw man. THEY admit to it if you ask them and probe deeper.

See the movie "Red Lights" with Sigourney Weaver. Her atheist scientist character reveals near the end of the movie the true motivations for her atheism, and it is the first reason above.

However, there is a third reason for atheism too, which I'm sure is obvious if you think about it. Since the industrial revolution, America has become very materialistic and people have become very selfish and self-centered. The motto has been "live for yourself" rather than serve others. In the past people lived to serve others or to serve God or the state or their family or some ideal cause or whatever, not just themselves. Only in modern times since the industrial revolution has selfishness and "living for yourself" been the norm.

Christianity of course, is against this. It demands that you live to serve God, not yourself. So it runs against the modern culture of living for yourself. That's why it became unpopular and dwindled since the 1800's. It's not because of Science or Darwinism, that's just an excuse to latch onto to reject religion if you don't like it. Not the true core cause, just the excuse to latch onto because it interferes with the freedom of the individual. It makes perfect sense if you think about it. I'm not saying being selfish is right or wrong, it just is. It's a primary motivation and reason for the popularity of atheism, that's for sure.
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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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Winston wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 6:16 am
Btw flowerthief00.

I've digged into many atheists lives and yes, they are usually atheists for two reasons, one or both, which they will admit if you probe them about it. They are:

1. They are angry at God for the suffering and tragedies and pain in their lives. Or for the suffering of others, the world, and their loved ones. Which is understandable of course. We've all blamed God for our problems to some degree.

2. They don't like the idea of being accountable to a deity or a creator. They want to be free to do whatever they want without accountability. Especially men because men like to be independent from their fathers. That's why more men than women become atheists. They hate the idea of a cosmic dictator and want their independenc to do whatever they want. Again, this is understandable. Even @Neo has spoken of this motive frequently.

Atheists will confess to these two if you ask them. They will admit that, no they do not want there to be a God either. Talk to them and you will see. They will admit it all if you pressure them to. So no, I did not make it up. It's not a straw man. THEY admit to it if you ask them and probe deeper.

See the movie "Red Lights" with Sigourney Weaver. Her atheist scientist character reveals near the end of the movie the true motivations for her atheism, and it is the first reason above.

However, there is a third reason for atheism too, which I'm sure is obvious if you think about it. Since the industrial revolution, America has become very materialistic and people have become very selfish and self-centered. The motto has been "live for yourself" rather than serve others. In the past people lived to serve others or to serve God or the state or their family or some ideal cause or whatever, not just themselves. Only in modern times since the industrial revolution has selfishness and "living for yourself" been the norm.

Christianity of course, is against this. It demands that you live to serve God, not yourself. So it runs against the modern culture of living for yourself. That's why it became unpopular and dwindled since the 1800's. It's not because of Science or Darwinism, that's just an excuse to latch onto to reject religion if you don't like it. Not the true core cause, just the excuse to latch onto because it interferes with the freedom of the individual. It makes perfect sense if you think about it. I'm not saying being selfish is right or wrong, it just is. It's a primary motivation and reason for the popularity of atheism, that's for sure.
I thought this tread was about "The Dark Side of Early Retirement?" Why is this a debate about atheist and not retirement? :?:
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Re: Article: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement

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yick wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 7:59 pm
Yohan makes a good point - men retire to places like Thailand and do stupid shit ...
Thanks for your comment, Yick, you are so right.

Developing countries just don't care about Western foreigners. Foreigners are expected to have money and to pay. If they have no money anymore, either they are kicked out or they live in a slum...

In the last 40 years or so I met not such a small number of Western foreigners who failed totally in such places like Thailand - they never considered the possibility something could go wrong after moving from their own countries while still young... 30, 40 years old.

They totally IGNORE the fact, that they are FOREIGNERS, far away from their own countries and there is no social network existing for them.
They are merely welcome as tourists. Local salaries are low, they have no working permit either, they cannot speak the local language, they get in trouble with their proper documentation in such host countries for longstay and to regulate that all is not so easy and can be costly.

Such Western men are often ignorant, they do not consider that only a few decades later, they will be old - this is our future - we cannot escape to get older and older.

If you stop working in your own country when you are only 30 or 40 years old, you will likely end up when you are 65 with a tiny retirement allowance by far not enough for a comfortable life, neither in the developed country you are holding citizenship nor in any underdeveloped country as a foreigner.

Your savings are gone long time ago and your retirement allowance is likely not even USD 500,- per month. What can you do with that in Thailand is the question...These foreigners have to pay rent as they rarely own any property, they have to pay for medical care out of the own wallet and many people get some medical issues when they are approaching 70s, they have to pay a visa agent for guarantee and this is not cheap at all as their income is not enough to qualify for a retirement visa....and what is left over is a rather poor daily life - sitting in front of a 7/11 with a beer bottle and some cigarettes...

I met such a guy last time, I said 'Hello' and he was looking 'somehow through me', like if I am invisible. 70+, both eyes in grey. He told me he has now cataract in both eyes, he sees only grey shadows and has no money for eye surgery...even not for the cheapest cataract surgery only for one eye...

I also met a guy a while ago who arrived with more than USD 600.000,-, 52 years old, not so little money but no other income - he was thinking this is enough for the rest of his life. I was sceptical, calculated it in my way, and the result was 'it is not impossible, if you are really very careful with money and you spend it only for yourself in a modest way...' - However he got yellow fever, paid for girls, alcohol and an expensive car, invited for parties and renting an upper class house etc. etc. and 18 months later he left back home to Germany - with less than 200.000 USD in his account....at least he was not suicidal, understood his mistakes and was not bankrupt.

Another one tried to live from real estate, buying low-price property from locals and selling them to a much higher price to foreigners after renovation - it was working nicely for 10 years, he made a considerable profit... but during the last 5 years - no way. Any project he tried was a failure, a financial loss. Times are changing, also in Thailand.
He told me sadly something that 'he made mistakes with wrong investments...' He still has a little income with his Thai wife in a rural area operating a small shop living from one day to the other. Age is also another problem coming up slowly for him. His house is gone, now paying rent in a poor housing area - his car is gone - no hot water - eating the cheapest Thai food - just sitting in front of his door and watching the neighborhood.

Keep in mind, just my warning, relocation to cheap countries is NOT so easy, and can be risky.
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