Mastering Japanese Language (Best methods? Best materials?)

[WilliamSmith]

OK, maybe the word "mastering" is a little over ambitious since even native Japanese speakers might need most of a lifetime for "mastery," but what I'm after is:

What are the best methods of study and practice to achieve complete fluency in Japanese, and be able to understand, speak, and read and write their wonderful language just as competently as a native speaker/reader?

I am still in the "understand a lot, but not enough yet" phase: I know maybe 1000-1500 kanji, am familiar with most if not all the grammar points enough to decode things relatively easily when translating written Japanese, and believe the priority to advance from here is probably to tackle mastering the kanji so I don't keep hitting an unknown kanji while reading.

What I've done so far that made sense to me:

Kana Script
I learned the kana scripts (hiragana and katakana) first.
There's at least 2000 basic kanji needed to get by and more like 3-5,000 I think as the norm for full fluency. (In Chinese there's even more, but Japanese is a little easier on Kanji because of using kana alphabets.)

Grammar Points Overview
I did an overview of the language's grammar points until I'd compiled around 1-3 example sentences (nothing too fancy) for each grammar point to give an applied example.
(By the way, some people don't like thinking about grammar, but I also am the type who struggles to understand what's being talked about when grammar points are discussed in the abstract, but with applied examples it's easy.)

Expanding on this a bit: There are a lot of grammatical particles and also many ways they conjugate verbs in Japanese, as well as a completely logical yet totally different order of words when forming sentences, so to me grammar overview and then having my book of grammar points is useful.
(I can theoretically see "winging it" in favor of deeper immersion and engagement with maybe Spanish, but not Japanese, personally.)

Translation exercises:
I like to translate small fun pieces of material into English and understand the underlying structures (and also learn vocabs this way).
This isn't just because it's fun: To me it's the best way I can think of to get applied practical learning and also something memorable to anchor what you've learned.
(An even better way might be to have a well-paid tutor continuously pushing you forward, giving instant feedback, and stuff like that, but for self-study this is what I do.)

By translating little things you like (whether its film clips from my retro macho action movies with Sonny Chiba or Bunta Sugawara, or maybe animes for the many who like that, or mangas, or even Japanese Twitter), it anchors new vocab and applied grammar points to something really memorable.

A lot of language programs and apps have practical stuff like "My girlfriend's apartment is on the 13th floor," but it's harder to have generic example sentences like that stick, even if it's objectively valuable for its practical value.


Kanji learning:
My personal preference is to first master the "radicals" (sometimes called "primitive elements") that Chinese traditional characters (and therefore Japanese kanji) are composed out of.

That way, even if there's no particularly obvious reason why a radical is part of a given kanji, you can at least say "oh, there's the radical for 'power' or 'sea' or 'sun' etc" instead of just seeing the components of each Kanji as some random mysterious symbol.

I'm open to suggestions from there, but I like the book series "Remembering the Kanji" that links together and introduces groups of related Kanji, while coming up with more or less mnemonic-like stories or imagery to make them memorable;
Even if you don't want to go with the suggested 'story' concepts the book comes up with, the delivery of thousands of Kanji in a sequence by linking together kanji with related elements is (I think) really helpful.

* Here's one for you Japanese students, by the way: Do you hand write kanji at all, or only learn via recognition and computerized typing?

Speaking is another thing:
I'm not focusing on that much right now, but I can say Japanese women are often open to wanting to practice English they're studying, and many don't mind at all if that was theoretically a gateway to feeling you out for a potential romantic/etc relationship either.

[Cornfed]

I thought I should make an attempt at starting to learn languages and doing a little research it seems the best way to learn online would be the "comprehensible input" method, where you watch videos with speech accompanied by visual cues allowing you to assimilate the meaning of the speech by osmosis. This is after all how little children learn.

[WilliamSmith]

I'll pitch in my own list of favorite resources and tools I've used so far:

For learning grammar points:

I liked a 3-book + audio CD course called "Living Language" the best of what I used. Unfortunately, it seems to have gone out of print, but it had a lot of practical examples and exercises, but the best thing was how neatly organized it was and how you could easily find the grammar points highlighted and explained, so it helped me make my own grammar book.

Another great source of an overview of grammar that's still available and free:
Some fellow named Tae Kim compiled a free online and PDF list of all Japanese grammar points in a Japanese Grammar Guide book, a very nice resource that does something similar by outlining and explaining all grammar points with applied examples.

I like the "Teach Yourself" series of books and have Teach Yourself Cantonese, Teach Yourself Vietnamese, and Teach Yourself Spanish. They do a good job of explaining grammar points, so suits my preference for compiling my own "books" full of grammar points and examples that I can cross-reference with a quick search.
Actually though, I don't have Teach Yourself Japanese, since I already got my grammar outlines from other books.... but hell with it: I'll go buy a copy and let you know if it's any good.

Books on Kanji Learning:

As I mentioned above in the first post, so far I like the "Remembering the Kanji" books for learning Kanji. (I think they might have a series on remembering the kana too, but I found those pretty easy since they're just phonetic alphabets.)

Books: I got the "Making Out in Japanese" vol 1 and 2 books at the recommendation of the guy with the Gaijinass blog here:
https://gaijinass.com/2017/04/24/how-to-learn-japanese/

Note that while this does have a lot of stuff about "dating" or PUA stuff for the swarm of guys obsessed with poaching their chicks, it is also a nifty little practical book for learning lots of basic useful phrases too even if your interests lie in other directions.

For all sentences: It has romaji (Romanized English so you can actually tell what the words sound like before you've mastered kana and kanji), and a mixture of kana and kanji, but with the useful "furigana" (little kana on top of the kanji) so you know how to actually pronounce the kanji on the spot.

Awesome software tools:

Takoboto offline desktop app is gold.
Besides the cool red squid mascot, it is loaded with content, definitions, and example sentences, and even shows kanji stroke order.
It almost feels like a search engine in producing good related results, even if what you put in doesn't match any exact entry.

Example sentence from Takoboto under the entry for セクスィー ("se-ku-si)":

道の向う側にセクシーな女の子が歩いている。
There goes a hot little number across the street.
Michi no mukōgawa ni sekushīna on'nanoko ga aruite iru

(I added the romaji, but Takoboto provided the rest, LOL.)

Anki, the SRS flashcard software, is free, and certainly pretty useful. (SRS spaced repetition strikes me as being a bit like NLP where the vociferous hype over it is a bit overblown but it's still potentially useful, heheh.) You can add images and sound to your cards, and there's also an add-on to get a voice speech synth to read your cards out loud as part of the process, very useful.

Ah yes, also: Some online apps that get dissed a lot by the internet peanut gallery ARE useful and fun for getting some continual immersion, even if they shouldn't be your first or only resource:

I did DuoLingo's Japanese course, and I like their stories section too. (The browser version in a PC or laptop is the best, by the way, over the app version which is nice too but not as good IMO.)

Ling is a less well-known one that has a lot of Asian languages, and also Cantonese (not a common offering), and their Japanese one is fine too.

Translators:

My $80 handheld translator device:
I am trying to cut down wifi and bought this little handheld translator that does a bunch of languages including Japanese, and does so offline even though I think you have to be online at least once for setup:
viewtopic.php?p=368486#p368486
The Amazon link's in those posts: It's about $80 and still there, but believe there's tons more similar ones out there.

Good web-based AI translators online (requiring wifi) are quite valuable and also free:

DeepL seems to have the best accuracy.

Google is solid for this and spits out the Romaji automatically, which is good until you have learned all the kanji (though even then you might want to know whether they're using the Japanese or Chinese readings, heheh).
Bing struck me as not quite as good.
Yandex seemed pretty solid and also has this neat OCR tool that can take an image file with some kanji (and kana) and convert it into computer text, very useful if you're looking at obscure stuff and translating before knowing all the kanji:
https://translate.yandex.com/ocr
Naturally, you can't expect AI translators to get it all right, so need to start with some kind of teaching material to learn how things like grammar are formally done first, but free web translators are pretty darn good.

Computer games:

There's these RPG Maker RPGs called Learn Japanese to Survive where you can go on a JRPG and do turn based battles against kanjis. It was pretty cute and a way to learn quite a few kanji, but I don't remember exactly how many.

There's an even better one (I thought) that's a shareware thing called Slime Forest RPG that was funny and has pretty fast-paced battles against slimes, town, wilderness, dungeons, etc. It teaches kana (hiragana and katakana) and also kanji.

I'm more inclined to translate stuff, but these games were pretty funny and I'm pretty sure worthwhile learning tools.

[WilliamSmith]

I linked to the late Mr Barnes of Gaijinass (RIP) who did a piece on learning Japanese, so let's quote him (and you can see his link for a pic of some AV chick with glasses looking pretty funny and cute lying on a desk in white shoes, LOL):
https://gaijinass.com/2017/04/24/how-to-learn-japanese/

I speak Japanese. I don’t speak it perfectly and I make grammatical mistakes but I honestly don’t care; I get it done. 9 out of 10 times I can say what I want to say, understand what they are saying to me and I can laugh at Japanese comedy on the rare occasions it’s funny.

I never went to a language school and I never took a course. Despite that I’ve negotiated contractual terms in Japanese and I’ve interpreted for Japanese speakers here and abroad.

The point, I guess, is that despite never committing too much to the language, I learned enough to get paid for speaking it and I never spent much time, effort or money to do so.

How did I learn Japanese?
I learned Japanese first, by having it screamed at me in Ihara gym. Nobody there spoke English and they didn’t care that I didn’t speak Japanese. So, that was step one. The moral of this part of the story is to go find an activity to do in Japanese.

Next, my linguistic ability made a quantum leap of sorts when I was arrested and spent several months in Jail. There’s no English in there, lots of time though, so I learned some kanji and the meaning of important words like “Tanto-san” and “shikkō yūyo“.

Later, after I decided to fix my life, I opened my own business and this also introduced me to using Japanese in a way I hadn’t before, and that helped with more advanced concepts and discussions.

So, during these times, how did I learn new words, phrases etc? Well, I kind of tried every thing at one time or another. But, if it didn’t work immediately, if I wasn’t using words and phrases from the source that same day, I would ditch it. So, these are the things I found immediately applicable and useful. The other stuff might work for that other gaijin but this is what worked for me.

No Textbooks, but…
I hate textbooks.

“Smith-san, kore ha nan desu ka?” Customs agent.

“Kore desu ka?” Mr. Smith.

“Hai, kore ha nan desu ka?” Customs agent.

“Kore ha hammu desu.” Mr. Smith. He has successfully imported a ham to Japan.

Useless.

That is a real excerpt from a textbook someone shoved in my face when I first arrived here back in the day. It sat on a bookshelf for a while, then in a closet, and then got pitched into the garbage.

However, there are a few books I’ve run into which really were useful.
Making out in Japanese actually helps. It’s a silly book, but it provides some pretty straight forward phrases one can memorize and then spit out when the time comes. I’ve used all kinds of phrases from this book and I probably still do, I just can’t remember what they are. From saying “Hi” to telling girls to toss your salad, this book has it all.

Japanese from Zero! 1: Proven Techniques to Learn Japanese for Students and Professionals (Volume 1).
When I first got arrested, I could speak some Japanese but I couldn’t read at all. Someone brought me this book the second week I was in there and I devoured it. It’s not a terribly tough thing to do when all you’re allowed to do all day is sit indian-style on the floor in a cell and stare at the wall. I don’t recommend going in the can, but if you want to discover a passionate reason to study Japanese, that’ll do it.


Well, that’s it for text books. I told you, I don’t like them unless they are my only source of entertainment and method to keep my sanity whilst rotting away in a Japanese jail. But those are two that worked well for me.

Computer stuff…
Lots of people have gone on and on about Rosetta Stone Japanese and it must work for some people. It didn’t, however, work for me but that’s probably because I wasn’t prepared to shell out two hundred bucks for it. If you have some basic Japanese under your belt, I recommend these videos. Although some of it is pretty obtuse and useless, other parts are found in daily conversation all over the place. I watched some of these while riding an exercise bike. Pretty painless and it’s free. We like free.

I don’t read Comics but…
Tim Ferriss has talked about reading Manga in various languages to learn them. Yeah, I did that and it worked but not based on Tim’s recommendation, but the cop who handed me the books between the cell bars. Reading manga is a good tool to use. The Japanese is often rather simple and lots of them have the kanji spelled out in hiragana as well. I read GTO, because that’s what they had, and I retained a lot of it.


Did I find a new passion and respect for this fantastic Japanese art form and continue my love affair once I was free? No, not at all, I have never read a comic sense and have no plans to. But, if you are attacking the language, it might help.

Audio help…
Look, nothing we can do about it, I know it sounds lame and the concept seems too basic to work, but Pimsleur Japanese works. In fact, if you’re a beginner, it works for everything. I’ve used it to learn crash course Thai, Chinese, Japanese and to brush up French. It isn’t too pricey, it’s relatively simple, and you get a lot of actual speaking and listening in. Granted, there’s no lecherous butt-sex talk on these, but there’s no explaining the ham in your suitcase either; a happy compromise.

But that leads us to…
Porn. If you watch porn, and the figures say you probably do, watching it in Japanese actually helps. Nobody is saying anything too complex, in fact it’s all pretty useful if you missed your immunization for yellow fever, and like Tim Ferriss says about Judo text books, the grammar transfers. Cool Tim, but you can keep the Judo books, I’m good here. If the wrong person catches you, just reference this post and blame it on your burning desire to grow linguistically.

Finally, and probably the most enjoyable method…
While making color coded flash cards I’m sure is a blast, the more pleasurable way I found to learn Japanese was in bed with a Japanese woman. Both during the act and afterwards, the opportunities to rap in nihongo are abundant and it’s amazing the things that come up in conversation in these situations. If you are having trouble finding a partner for this, perhaps try here, and if that fails try here.

Remember, just speak. Don’t hide in gaijin groups and avoid places and people that will challenge you linguistically. If you step up and try to speak it, chances are you’ll surprise yourself with what you can actually say.

If you have any ground breaking tips and tricks, or links, that have helped you learn Japanese, please post them in the comments for others to reference.

[Lucas88]

OK, maybe the word "mastering" is a little over ambitious since even native Japanese speakers might need most of a lifetime for "mastery," but what I'm after is:

What are the best methods of study and practice to achieve complete fluency in Japanese, and be able to understand, speak, and read and write their wonderful language just as competently as a native speaker/reader?

Hey @WilliamSmith, I've just had a look through the language part of my book shelf and separated the Japanese textbooks and courses which I found the most useful and which I think reflect your own learning style from what you've told me. I will include links to the US Amazon website for reference but in some cases you'll be able to find the same books cheaper on eBay and elsewhere.

1. Comprehensive Beginners' Course

In my previous thread I recommended you the Linguaphone Starter Course. This course consists of a textbook full of natural dialogues written in Romaji and accompanied by audio recordings, and a handbook with in-depth grammatical explanations, vocabulary lists and exercises. The Japanese Linguaphone course has 50 lessons instead of the regular 30.

https://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Complet ... 10&sr=8-10


2. A More Simple Comprehensive Course

I also recommend An Innovative Approach to Speaking and Reading Japanese by Gene Nishi. This textbook takes you through all of the major grammar points in a more streamlined manner and includes a handful of example sentences displayed in both Japanese script and Romaji for each. I think it would be good to use this book in conjunction with the denser and more dialogue-based Linguaphone course. I get the feeling that it is also really in line with your own preferred learning style.

https://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Step-In ... 529&sr=8-1


3. In-depth Point-by-Point Grammar Dictionary

The best grammar series I've ever found is A Dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Japanese Grammar by Seiichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui. These books take you through all of the language's grammar points in more depth than the previous recommendation and include the right number of example sentences with translations. Don't be put off by the mention of grammar in the title. This book is fun and highly practical with its example sentences and gets straight to the point with grammatical explanations. No understanding of complex linguistic jargon is needed. These books really helped me to improve my Japanese and learn how to speak correctly, btw.

https://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Basic ... 4546&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Inter ... 7758&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Advan ... 2956&psc=1


4. Kanji Textbooks

I my previous post I recommended the Basic Kanji Book and Intermediate Kanji Book series. They consist of two books each and teach the learner up to 1000 Kanji through logical lessons which include how to write each character, the readings (kun-yomi and on-yomi), example vocabulary, example sentences, and reading exercises at the end of each lesson. These are by far the most practical Kanji textbooks.

https://www.amazon.com/2Books-Bundle-Le ... 231&sr=8-4

https://www.amazon.com/INTERMEDIATE-KAN ... 213&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.com/INTERMEDIATE-KAN ... 213&sr=8-2

As for the number of Kanji you need to read Japanese proficiently, the number is often greatly exaggerated. For me I found that the sweet number is about 1600-1700. At about that point you should be able to read most texts with minimal need to use a Kanji dictionary. Many make a big deal out of the 2,136 Joyo Kanji but towards the end of that list many of the characters are just useless obscure ones that you never encounter in real life. Japanese natives who say that you need knowledge of 3,000 plus Kanji merely seek to exaggerate the difficulty of their own language's writing system. Foreign learners who claim to know how to read that many are just looking to inflate their own ego. I'd be willing to bet that there are many Japanese adults who don't know any more than 2,000 characters.

Handwriting Kanji is not essential since nowadays everybody uses word processing to write but learning the strokes and practicing handwriting can really help you to memorize them.


Outro

The above are the courses which I strongly recommend. I hope that you find my advice useful.

[WilliamSmith]

Thanks @Lucas88, much appreciated!

I just got some of the Basic and Intermediate Kanji books and all 3 of the Dictionaries of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Grammar, and will check out the others later.

I have a new twist I've decided to take on language learning strategy for awhile:
For various personal reasons I won't go into, I've got the Caribbean at the top of my list of expat destinations right now, and most of those nations I'm looking at speak English as the first language (with Dominican Republic's Spanish being the main exception). So since I don't have any projects right now that demand immediate Japanese fluency, and since Kanji are my main "obstruction" point, I think I'm going to do a project of focusing most of my language learning efforts entirely on mastering traditional Chinese characters / Kanji up front, and test myself regularly to see how many I can learn as fast as possible (then re-test to see how well I retain them). And then go back to doing more applied translation work after I know 2,000-3,000 traditional Chinese characters/ kanji.
In fact I think I might make yet another thread on that since it's a slightly different topic than "Mastering Japanese," heheh...