Happier Abroad Forum Community

Repatriate,
While formatting my Russia Trip updates, I found this email below from an Asian guy who gave me a brutally honest assessment of Russian morality and my experiences in Russia. The writing style, words, and assessment of me sound remarkably a lot like yours. Did you write this?

From my Russia Trip Updates:

http://www.happierabroad.com/RussiaJournals2004.doc

Intellectual Asian comments on Russian morality and Winston's experiences

Dear all,
A few days ago, I got this response below from an Asian guy who calls himself "D" and wishes to remain anonymous. He was interested in having his comments forwarded to my list to see what reactions might result. While I wholeheartedly agree with him in his assessments on Russian morality and racism, I don't agree with his claim that I am not handsome by anyone's standards. Many people have described me as good looking, cute, handsome, or attractive, and out of those people, SOME of them did mean it!

I will also post this in the talk lounge message boards of www.waytorussia.net in the folder called "Russian People" so if you want to read comments or comment on this post publicly, you can do so there as well.

-----------------------------

“Hello Winston,

I don't know if you remember me but we traded some
e-mails quite awhile back. I am the asian guy who
e-mailed you under a verizon account I used to have.
Being that I have travelled in Russia before I
remember arguing with you about how you were being
overly optimistic about the russian people in general.

I hate to say it..but I told you so. One only has to
look at Russia's history as a nation and people to
know that they have some serious cultural character
flaws. Just as a comparison from my observations,
while asian countries may be repressed, cynical, and
materialistic deep down they still have a sense of
honor and morality that's based on confucianistic
values. Modern anglo and western european societies
also possess some rudimentary sense of morality and
social mores in regards to "right" or "wrong"
behavior. Russians DO NOT have the same type of
morality in their society. I'm not afraid to make this
very controversial point because you see how they can
take greed, malice, and exploitation to a whole new
level in their individual dealings. I can meet someone
in the U.S., befriend them, and at the VERY least
count on them not backstabbing me with a smiling face
days later. Of course you have your share of scumbags
in the U.S. but it's not to the point where people are
so two-faced that you can't trust anyone in basic
everyday functions. I'm afraid in Russia you can't
trust a great deal of people, the most nice and well
meaning (or ones that act that way) WILL f**k you over
if given the chance especially if you're a foreigner.
It's almost a given in their culture because they
don't have the same notions of respect or integrity.
This is a nation that murders/jails political
opponents and kills journalists. Don't forget what
lengths the average Russian will go to even against
each other.

There's also another aspect of your experience in
Russia that has to be noted: Russians are an extremely
racist people, possibly on par with some Nazis. Even
the average racist in the U.S. usually has a sense of
meritorious respect. They may despise people of your
ethnicity but as long as you are successful or
"different" they will give you somewhat of a benefit
of the doubt. In contrast, Russians may be
"multicultural" to a degree but their tolerance of
foreign people is very limited and broad in its
prejudice. Once again a person only has to look at
history to see how they have persecuted racial
minorities and have had thousands of Jews sent to
ghettos and gulags. One only has to examine Russia's
heavy handed dealings with its surrounding minority
provinces (Chechnya) and people to get an idea that
this isn't the most open minded or compromising
culture.

To some extent Winston I understand what you are you
doing but I believe you have some deep personality
issues that need to be resolved. Not everyone dates a
cover girl and for the type of relationship you are
looking for it's not likely you'll find one that's
very open minded or accepting. The fact is beauty is a
premium most of the time and valued through
materialism and shallow means. You may find a
millionaire with a model under each arm but there's a
cost to him as well since he's giving the girl de
facto status and wealth. A handsome young stud might
be able to have his pick of the litter but it's
usually a temporary sexual romp instead of a real
relationship. The problem is Winston you want the best
of both worlds. You want a model type girl that will
love you for who you are but yet you aren't giving
much in return in this cynical trade off.
You aren't really handsome by anyone's standards and
you certainly aren't wealthy. You have an interesting
but very neurotic and some would say "immature"
personality that most women would find hard to bear.
In a society like Russia don't expect good intentions
and a loveable personality to go very far. I talked
with you about this a long long time ago but you chose
to ignore everything I said. Please do some deep soul
searching before continuing to waste your life away in
pursuit of a shallow goal. Hey, if you just wanted to
sleep with beautiful girls there are other
alternatives. If that's all you wanted on your trip
then may advice for you would have been real simple.

D.

P.S. - You can put this on your mailing list if you
wish but please keep aspects of my e-mail address
anonymous. In fact I encourage you to circulate this
as i'm interested as to what others would say about it
as well.â€￾

He is right ( from a foreigner's perspective). On the other hand, Russians in their own country know how to play the game and how to be decent and polite and conscientious to their small group of friends. That is what Russia is all about- within the clique they are very honest and faithful for life. Friendships there last a lifetime. These take preference over laws. Also, an outsider, be it a foreigner, or a Russian from another place has no chance in such cliques. The problem is double with a foreigner as most do not speak the language and do not know the culture well.
Russians can also be very helpful, extremely transparent in business ( with people whom they view as friends) and will sacrifice their time and money to assist those friends who are in need. They are also very forgiving. Again, for this you need to figure out how their culture works and work one's way into it. Which is impossible without speaking the language. So, unless you are willing to do things in Russia on their terms, just do not bother with the country.
Incidentally, I am not interested in Russia. Just telling you how it is.

Ladislav, how do you know so much about Russia if you have never lived there? That's unusual isn't it?

Also, why don't Russians have a conscience? Do they never feel guilty?

And how can it be that Russians have such high IQ's and are good in philosophy, art and chess, yet their country is chaotic, corrupt and nothing makes sense there? It's as if chaos rules there, and the people seem to revel in it.

Looks like you have run into gold diggers who expressly look for foreigners thinking these will give them money. Peasants. Same as many such folks in the Philippines. These are isolated hickish people with no international experience and a peasant mindset that has no appreciation for money since they had been living off of the fat of the land. They are also very young and think that the world and men owe them a living. What do you expect?

Yes, I did live in Russia as a kid.

Russia is now doing very well economically and growing by leaps and bounds. But it still has bad karma owing to its very dark Orthodox religion, the lack of arable soil, the coldest weather on earth and a huge class of former serfs who have no respect for themselves or for work because they had been slaves for centuries. It has an intelligentsia class that is very smart and if you could plug into that you would have lots of friends who have conscience. But it is a non English speaking country and you are severely handicapped if you do not speak Russian as you would be in Latin America if you did not speak Spanish. The English speaking people there or those who like foreigners just because they are foreigners are not the best people you can find.

I agree 100% percent with ladislav.

The writer speaks about Russian history, but he obviously doesn’t know all of her History. If he did, then he would understand why the Russian people are the way they are. I think there has been too many book burning and revision in history to cover up what really happened Russia.

I degrees.

In my journey I meet some good Russians and Russian who were out to screw over the foreigner (me). I went there with open mind knowing that Russia has lots of changes to make and lot more social economic to overcome. You can’t expect an entire group of people to change their way over night. It takes generations. But as Ladislav have stated it many times, go learn the language and immerse in their culture and daily lives. Figure out how things are done there. Perhaps his should have been asking why Russian are the way they are instead of criticizing. Privileged people generally don’t understand the less privileged lives. And often think they are better. I think you’ll find that as more Russian travel abroad and see and experience the difference, they’re country will change. For better worst, who can say.

Also, perhaps he should be asking how the hell the Bolshevik who had so little resources and man power got their resources to over throw the well-established governing body of the Russians. “Follow the trail of money, and you will find the truth!â€￾ as one of my mentor always preached to me.

(I want to make a note and say, I did meet many younger Russian who have work and study abroad for 3 to 6 month or more and they react differently to many then Russian who have not been abroad. It was like there was certain understanding of me as a foreigner in their country. I don’t know how else to explain it.) It was always the ones who have never been to the western world that tried to scam me.

Hell, if you wanted Russian to act the same, then you should have stayed home. Many people travel overseas and study to experience new things.
I’ve really had good experience in Russia until I started to get closer to Moscow (except for the taxi drivers, those fuckers were out to get me as soon as I hit Russian soil). I made some good friends during my stay.

You know…. As I’m writing this, I’m wondering how many foreigners have stayed mostly around Moscow and SPB Oblast and think that’s the Russian experience, especially when most of the Russian don’t live in those two Oblasts. Even Russians say that Moscow and SPB isn’t Russia.

On another note, I’ve live in Los Angeles, so if you want to compare the worst part of Russia and places like Compton or even Detroit, I really don’t think Russia is so bad. Not all of Russia is like Detroit, just as USA isn't Detroit.

Foreigners who go to Russia to live are mainly these:

1) Poorer people from former Soviet republics- yes, these are foreigners. They need permits to live there and are not citizens. These try and adapt to the Russian way of life to succeed if they are Christians, and somewhat semi- adapt if they are Muslims.
2) Anglos- Virtually NEVER learn the language with very few exceptions - you can count them on the fingers of one hand-, and thus cannot really appreciate the country or integrate. They are thus limited to Moscow and SPB because no one can speak any English outside of these areas. Their world view is through English and through the people who can speak English. Thus most of the time they can never understand the place they are in. In many cases it is good and they are happy for ignorance is bliss and they pretend that they are colonizing the place, but they also get screwed over a lot.
3) Foreign students from Africa and India- people of color- can intergrate better if they are not in the big cities but I dont think they are liked that much.
4) All others- the whiter richer and more fluent in Russian, the better integrated they become.
Generally, those who do things the Russian way do not get screwed over. To screw over a friend is unthinkable in Russia and is severely punished. Friendships are for life. Also, love is for life if the guy is OK.
The culture is very deep but you need to study it to understand it.
But in a nutshell, the US is a country of laws, not men. Russia is a country of men, not laws. Friendship is deep there and friends will do everything for you.

You guys,
I don't understand your point. It doesn't matter "why" Russians tend to cheat and scam people, or what their history is. Whatever their reasons are, it doesn't justify their actions if they are WRONG. Cheating and scamming innocent people is plain wrong. There's no way around it. Why are you trying to justify it?

I mean, geez, if you come to my place and don't speak my language, does that give me justification to cheat you and scam you and stab you in the back?

Also, the facts are the facts.

A lot of people told me that good people in Russia were the exception, not the norm. If that's true, then it speaks volumes. But you guys are implying that most Russians are good moral people, and that only a minority cheat and scam others. Is that so? Without painting people with words like good or bad, let's just say that most, or at least a very high percentage of Russians, will scam you for profit given the chance.

One of my friends in Russia named Vadim, or I thought he was my friend rather, pulled a scam on me and the next day led me into an ambush where I was assaulted. How do you explain that? How come that never happens in the US? I thought leading someone into an ambush happened only in movies. I didn't know it happened in real life, until I met Vadim. No one in the US would lead me into an ambush. That is simply unthinkable.

See the story here:
http://www.happierabroad.com/The_Privat ... e_Scam.htm

Furthermore, how do you explain the fact that people in all the neighboring countries of Russia, don't like or trust Russians? How do you defend that? A Lithuanian girl even told me that Russians have a tendency to group together to scam people. How did she know that?

Again, just because you don't speak my language or understand me, doesn't give me the right to scam, cheat and backstab you, right? So why are you trying to defend or justify the unjustifiable and wrong?

ladislav wrote: But in a nutshell, the US is a country of laws, not men. Russia is a country of men, not laws. Friendship is deep there and friends will do everything for you.

redacted

A lot of people told me that good people in Russia were the exception, not the norm. If that's true, then it speaks volumes. But you guys are implying that most Russians are good moral people, and that only a minority cheat and scam others. Is that so? Without painting people with words like good or bad, let's just say that most, or at least a very high percentage of Russians, will scam you for profit given the chance.

Agreed. And if you are a foreigner there and do not know what is going on, you will attract criminals who will scam you or worse. You think it does not go on in the USA? Think again! When the Japanese bought the Rockefeller Center, they were charged double and I have met an American guy who was bragging how he was overcharging the Japanese - double again. And look at the subprime rate crisis. A lot of it was due to the fact that many Mexican immigrants were sold houses with contracts they did not understand. Also, do you know what happens to illegals when they cross into the USA? Many are shot, girls are raped and people are often robbed in the desert. Foreigners who are in a new land need to be extremely careful.

America is full of scams and when I was new in it, I fell for many. Loan scams, job placement scams, high interest investment scams, work at home scams, internet business scams, patent scams, they are everywhere. Most golden opportunities online are pure bs. My Dad would often call America a land of liars, of people with no conscience, of rip of artists and smoochers. He was new to it so he did not know what was going on. One last thing he was drawn into before he passed away was some poetry scam whereby he wrote some poem and had it published for a price. He proudly got the book and it said there that it had a Library of Congress registration number. He was extatic! Now he was listed as a poet with the US Library of Congress. Well, what he did not know was that anyone could do that and that he did not have to pay that company money for it.

I told my Dad that this was a scam and he did not know the meaning of the word 'scam'.

You grew up in the US so you are very much aware of where a scam is and what it looks like. The US scams are obvious to you, but they are not obvious to naive foreigners. You also would not want to get involved with poor people in the US who live in projects or trailer parks, and do business with them, would you? Lots of criminals and dishonest people there.

The Russians in Russia would also be aware of the scams and the bad people there. You fell for it, the locals would not. They only trust a group of friends from teh same school/the same social class. Among those deceptions and scams are virtually zero.

because you don't speak my language or understand me, doesn't give me the right to scam, cheat and backstab you, right? So why are you trying to defend or justify the unjustifiable and wrong?

Agreed again, but who is trying to justify it? We are not talking about a 'right' here. We are talking about an opportunity for a criminal to see where he/she could take advantage of you. And a foreigner is a country in turmoil like Russia or a lawless place like Thailand is a target of opportunity. So, you've got to be careful.

And people who are online expressly looking for foreigners have an agenda, wouldn't you agree?

NorthAmericanguy wrote: Anyhow, I have never seen heterosexual American men with long lasting friendships unless they were gangmembers or x military guys.

o.O Really? I'm 40 and still hang out with friends from high school & college. One friend dates back to Jr. High. Guess that makes me pretty ghetto & ganster. LoL.

Seriously, I lived near Cerritos during Jr High and HS years, and we have a joke "Cerritositis" where people from Cerritos (or near it) have this growth on their rear-ends that somehow attach them to the city of Cerritos on the map. Somehow they'd always want to return and live there like salmon returning to spawn. My GF is from the same area and went to the same HS, and she insists that if we get married, we should move back to Cerritos, or "Cerritos area".

I thought the attitude was quite odd, considering Irvine or Coto are better neighborhoods, but many kids from there want to move out of the village of Stepford Wives.

ladislav wrote:
America is full of scams and when I was new in it, I fell for many. Loan scams, job placement scams, high interest investment scams, work at home scams, internet business scams, patent scams, they are everywhere. Most golden opportunities online are pure bs. My Dad would often call America a land of liars, of people with no conscience, of rip of artists and smoochers. He was new to it so he did not know what was going on. One last thing he was drawn into before he passed away was some poetry scam whereby he wrote some poem and had it published for a price. He proudly got the book and it said there that it had a Library of Congress registration number. He was extatic! Now he was listed as a poet with the US Library of Congress. Well, what he did not know was that anyone could do that and that he did not have to pay that company money for it.
I told my Dad that this was a scam and he did not know the meaning of the word 'scam'.

You can add "confidence scams" to the list. Friends who borrow money from you for great business ventures that never existed. ;p

"Gee um... why am I writing a check out to your landord's name?"
"How do you know that's my landlord?"
"Because it's not your name"

[quote="momopi"]
o.O Really? I'm 40 and still hang out with friends from high school & college. One friend dates back to Jr. High. Guess that makes me pretty ghetto & ganster. LoL.
/quote]
redacted.

momopi wrote: You can add "confidence scams" to the list.

This is the core emotion that is pushed in most of the black American churches today. And in fact, I would argue that religion is the biggest scam that is that's going on in America today.

Winston wrote:Ladislav, how do you know so much about Russia if you have never lived there? That's unusual isn't it?

Also, why don't Russians have a conscience? Do they never feel guilty?

And how can it be that Russians have such high IQ's and are good in philosophy, art and chess, yet their country is chaotic, corrupt and nothing makes sense there? It's as if chaos rules there, and the people seem to revel in it.

Redacted

ladislav wrote:Also, do you know what happens to illegals when they cross into the USA? Many are shot, girls are raped and people are often robbed in the desert.

They are shot, raped and robbed by the very Coyotes who charged them 40,000 MXN to sneak them into Arizona. Or by other illegals who are already in the USA who bang them when they are forced to have sex with large groups.