I changed my language focus

[yick]

@Yick,

Content
Physical format
Numerous copies, known as exemplifications, were made of the various charters, and many of them still survive.[258] The documents were written in heavily abbreviated medieval Latin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

https://magnacarta800th.com/schools/dow ... d-answers/

Three languages co-existed in England at the time that Magna Carta was agreed in 1215. Latin, the language in which the Charter was written, was the formal language of authority; French, the language of chivalry, was the everyday language of the knightly class; while English, in a form somewhere between Old English and the later Middle English, was the language of the lower orders.

Magna Carta was translated into French very shortly after it was first agreed. It had to be, because it was a living document and its contents had to be made widely known; the knightly class, in particular, would have wanted to know what it said. The Charter was almost certainly proclaimed in French as well as in its original Latin at the monthly meetings of the county court at which the local good and the great gathered.

The Charter was not formally translated and published in English, however, until as late as the sixteenth century. This was because it was most heavily used by the lawyers, and the lawyers wanted it in the original language. The first English edition of the Charter was the work of George Ferrers (c. 1510-1579) in his The Great Charter called in latyn Magna Carta of 1534-1542. The invention of printing gave a massive stimulus to circulation of the Charter.

[Gali]

@Yick,

Content
Physical format
Numerous copies, known as exemplifications, were made of the various charters, and many of them still survive.[258] The documents were written in heavily abbreviated medieval Latin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

https://magnacarta800th.com/schools/dow ... d-answers/

Three languages co-existed in England at the time that Magna Carta was agreed in 1215. Latin, the language in which the Charter was written, was the formal language of authority; French, the language of chivalry, was the everyday language of the knightly class; while English, in a form somewhere between Old English and the later Middle English, was the language of the lower orders.

Magna Carta was translated into French very shortly after it was first agreed. It had to be, because it was a living document and its contents had to be made widely known; the knightly class, in particular, would have wanted to know what it said. The Charter was almost certainly proclaimed in French as well as in its original Latin at the monthly meetings of the county court at which the local good and the great gathered.

The Charter was not formally translated and published in English, however, until as late as the sixteenth century. This was because it was most heavily used by the lawyers, and the lawyers wanted it in the original language. The first English edition of the Charter was the work of George Ferrers (c. 1510-1579) in his The Great Charter called in latyn Magna Carta of 1534-1542. The invention of printing gave a massive stimulus to circulation of the Charter.

You were wrong. Will you accept it?

Latin, the language in which the Charter was written

[jerryrigged]

@Yick,

Content
Physical format
Numerous copies, known as exemplifications, were made of the various charters, and many of them still survive.[258] The documents were written in heavily abbreviated medieval Latin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

https://magnacarta800th.com/schools/dow ... d-answers/

Three languages co-existed in England at the time that Magna Carta was agreed in 1215. Latin, the language in which the Charter was written, was the formal language of authority; French, the language of chivalry, was the everyday language of the knightly class; while English, in a form somewhere between Old English and the later Middle English, was the language of the lower orders.

Magna Carta was translated into French very shortly after it was first agreed. It had to be, because it was a living document and its contents had to be made widely known; the knightly class, in particular, would have wanted to know what it said. The Charter was almost certainly proclaimed in French as well as in its original Latin at the monthly meetings of the county court at which the local good and the great gathered.

The Charter was not formally translated and published in English, however, until as late as the sixteenth century. This was because it was most heavily used by the lawyers, and the lawyers wanted it in the original language. The first English edition of the Charter was the work of George Ferrers (c. 1510-1579) in his The Great Charter called in latyn Magna Carta of 1534-1542. The invention of printing gave a massive stimulus to circulation of the Charter.

You were wrong. Will you accept it?

Latin, the language in which the Charter was written

MR @yick IS A SINOVAC BROTHER - ALWAYS CORRECT! In Sinovac we trust!

[yick]

@Yick,

Content
Physical format
Numerous copies, known as exemplifications, were made of the various charters, and many of them still survive.[258] The documents were written in heavily abbreviated medieval Latin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

https://magnacarta800th.com/schools/dow ... d-answers/

Three languages co-existed in England at the time that Magna Carta was agreed in 1215. Latin, the language in which the Charter was written, was the formal language of authority; French, the language of chivalry, was the everyday language of the knightly class; while English, in a form somewhere between Old English and the later Middle English, was the language of the lower orders.

Magna Carta was translated into French very shortly after it was first agreed. It had to be, because it was a living document and its contents had to be made widely known; the knightly class, in particular, would have wanted to know what it said. The Charter was almost certainly proclaimed in French as well as in its original Latin at the monthly meetings of the county court at which the local good and the great gathered.

The Charter was not formally translated and published in English, however, until as late as the sixteenth century. This was because it was most heavily used by the lawyers, and the lawyers wanted it in the original language. The first English edition of the Charter was the work of George Ferrers (c. 1510-1579) in his The Great Charter called in latyn Magna Carta of 1534-1542. The invention of printing gave a massive stimulus to circulation of the Charter.

You were wrong. Will you accept it?

Latin, the language in which the Charter was written

The Magna Carta was written in French albeit a translation from Latin, nothing I have said contradicts this view.

The reason why it was written into French is because the landowners were able to read it and understand it.

[Gali]

I know it is hard to accept but it is ok.
On the general topic you are right that is what counts anyway. Good job.

I am checking that stuff for procrastination anyway.


https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/ ... ranslation

[yick]

I know it is hard to accept but it is ok.
On the general topic you are right that is what counts anyway. Good job.

I am checking that stuff for procrastination anyway.


https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/ ... ranslation

Nothing contradicts what I said, the Magna Carta was written in French. French is the base language of English law.

Thanks.

[Gali]

I know it is hard to accept but it is ok.
On the general topic you are right that is what counts anyway. Good job.

I am checking that stuff for procrastination anyway.


https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/ ... ranslation

Nothing contradicts what I said, the Magna Carta was written in French. French is the base language of English law.

Thanks.

You mean the Grande Chartre d'Angleterre

[yick]

I know it is hard to accept but it is ok.
On the general topic you are right that is what counts anyway. Good job.

I am checking that stuff for procrastination anyway.


https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/ ... ranslation

Nothing contradicts what I said, the Magna Carta was written in French. French is the base language of English law.

Thanks.

You mean the Grande Chartre d'Angleterre

Yep!

[Spencer]

Yick,

I have studied Linguistics, too, and one of my degrees is in it, but I took other classes and not History of the English Language.

One of your degrees is linguistics but cannot differentiate a loan word from a derivative word? OK then

I haven't sat down and studied all the etymologies into English from Latin, and whether they came into English from French. I usually look up a quick reference if I am interested. The one I looked up for 'intelligent' said it came from Latin and did not show it coming in from French. If you can show it came in through French and care to do so, knock yourself out.

You're the one who was arguing the point that 'many' English words came directly from Latin - they didn't and you're wrong and now we all know you never studied the history of the English language you have learned something new.

The word 'intelligent' has it's roots in Latin but the word in English came via French (which came from the Latin word 'intellegens') - it didn't directly come from Latin - there is no way it could have came directly from Latin into English because when Latin speaking cultures (The Romans) ruled the British Isles the English language didn't exist! The French ruled England for 500 years and legal and the language of aristocracy was in French (or Anglo-Norman which was a dialect of French). The Magna Carta was in French.

I would expect most of the loan words came in through French unless they are religious or academic words. Monks, priests, and later scientists wrote in Latin. The educated class wrote various treatises in Latin. It was the language of academia throughout Europe for a time. One of the German-speaking kings of England communicated with his prime minister in Latin. I can look up charts of specifics. I'm not going to sit around counting words or verifying etymologies.

Religious, some academic and scientific words are direct loan words from Latin, yes - you will find some loan words that came directly from Latin but the vast amount of loan words and derivatives come from French - the ruling classes of England for over 500 years were French speaking. Those French words - a lot of them are derivatives of Latin. That's the link but it isn't a direct link from Latin - what you said was incorrect and then to argue it - at least you have reeled back from your original statement so that's something.

Btw, I did not count the words at that one link, but if the words are commonly used, 100 words is pretty significant. Not all of those were that commonly used, but some were.

100 words isn't 'significant' at all when an educated persons vocabulary is between 17-20000 words.

Of course, in the 11th century, the Norman French-speaking William the Conqueror conquered England and used French as the language of the court and it collided with the Anglo-Saxon of the day resulting eventually in Middle English.

Those who want to focus on this area can look up the first references to the words in English literature to determine where they came from, study Old French, etc.

The earliest forms of the English language didn't precede French by all that much within the British Isles - probably 500 years, the earliest forms of English was as alien to the British Isles as French and Latin is. The native tongues of Britain are the Brythonic language group which exists today as Welsh (with Cornish and Manx making a revival, Cumbric is all but a dead language).

50% everyday speech come from top common 100 words

If you learn only 800 of the most frequently-used word family roots in English, you'll be able to understand 75% of the language as it is spoken in normal life.

100 commoner words from latin very signifcance

[yick]

Yick,

I have studied Linguistics, too, and one of my degrees is in it, but I took other classes and not History of the English Language.

One of your degrees is linguistics but cannot differentiate a loan word from a derivative word? OK then

I haven't sat down and studied all the etymologies into English from Latin, and whether they came into English from French. I usually look up a quick reference if I am interested. The one I looked up for 'intelligent' said it came from Latin and did not show it coming in from French. If you can show it came in through French and care to do so, knock yourself out.

You're the one who was arguing the point that 'many' English words came directly from Latin - they didn't and you're wrong and now we all know you never studied the history of the English language you have learned something new.

The word 'intelligent' has it's roots in Latin but the word in English came via French (which came from the Latin word 'intellegens') - it didn't directly come from Latin - there is no way it could have came directly from Latin into English because when Latin speaking cultures (The Romans) ruled the British Isles the English language didn't exist! The French ruled England for 500 years and legal and the language of aristocracy was in French (or Anglo-Norman which was a dialect of French). The Magna Carta was in French.

I would expect most of the loan words came in through French unless they are religious or academic words. Monks, priests, and later scientists wrote in Latin. The educated class wrote various treatises in Latin. It was the language of academia throughout Europe for a time. One of the German-speaking kings of England communicated with his prime minister in Latin. I can look up charts of specifics. I'm not going to sit around counting words or verifying etymologies.

Religious, some academic and scientific words are direct loan words from Latin, yes - you will find some loan words that came directly from Latin but the vast amount of loan words and derivatives come from French - the ruling classes of England for over 500 years were French speaking. Those French words - a lot of them are derivatives of Latin. That's the link but it isn't a direct link from Latin - what you said was incorrect and then to argue it - at least you have reeled back from your original statement so that's something.

Btw, I did not count the words at that one link, but if the words are commonly used, 100 words is pretty significant. Not all of those were that commonly used, but some were.

100 words isn't 'significant' at all when an educated persons vocabulary is between 17-20000 words.

Of course, in the 11th century, the Norman French-speaking William the Conqueror conquered England and used French as the language of the court and it collided with the Anglo-Saxon of the day resulting eventually in Middle English.

Those who want to focus on this area can look up the first references to the words in English literature to determine where they came from, study Old French, etc.

The earliest forms of the English language didn't precede French by all that much within the British Isles - probably 500 years, the earliest forms of English was as alien to the British Isles as French and Latin is. The native tongues of Britain are the Brythonic language group which exists today as Welsh (with Cornish and Manx making a revival, Cumbric is all but a dead language).

50% everyday speech come from top common 100 words

If you learn only 800 of the most frequently-used word family roots in English, you'll be able to understand 75% of the language as it is spoken in normal life.

100 commoner words from latin very signifcance

Go on then, write down the top 100 used words in English and lets see how many come directly from Latin (as in loan words and deriviations directly sourced from a Latin word).

[Spencer]

Beter top 1000s cus top 100 is jus mostly miki mouse wordings

[MrMan]

Yick,

I have studied Linguistics, too, and one of my degrees is in it, but I took other classes and not History of the English Language.

One of your degrees is linguistics but cannot differentiate a loan word from a derivative word? OK then

That sounds more like lexicography, which overlaps somewhat with linguistics but wasn't my area of study. It is possible your courses focused on this.
I don't remember the topic being discussed. It might have been in the intro class. I took a number of classes under a Proto-IndoEuropean expert who would derive words during lectures from dead languages and the reconstructed PIE protolanguage. The issue we were discussing was whether a large number of words came in through Latin rather than French. I pointed to a couple of sources that claimed this was the case. I don't care to put in the effort to verify these sources. You have made the claim that few words came in through Latin, and you haven't really shown any evidence for it.

I haven't sat down and studied all the etymologies into English from Latin, and whether they came into English from French. I usually look up a quick reference if I am interested. The one I looked up for 'intelligent' said it came from Latin and did not show it coming in from French. If you can show it came in through French and care to do so, knock yourself out.[/quote]

You're the one who was arguing the point that 'many' English words came directly from Latin - they didn't and you're wrong and now we all know you never studied the history of the English language you have learned something new.[/quote]I said I did not take the class on the topic. I did not say I knew nothing about the topic at all. I offered two sources that disagreed with you, btw. What have you posted?

The word 'intelligent' has it's roots in Latin but the word in English came via French (which came from the Latin word 'intellegens') - it didn't directly come from Latin - there is no way it could have came directly from Latin into English because when Latin speaking cultures (The Romans) ruled the British Isles the English language didn't exist! The French ruled England for 500 years and legal and the language of aristocracy was in French (or Anglo-Norman which was a dialect of French). The Magna Carta was in French.

Wikipedia says this under its entry for 'intelligence'.

The word intelligence derives from the Latin nouns intelligentia or intellēctus, which in turn stem from the verb intelligere, to comprehend or perceive. In the Middle Ages, the word intellectus became the scholarly technical term for understanding, and a translation for the Greek philosophical term nous. This term, however, was strongly linked to the metaphysical and cosmological theories of teleological scholasticism, including theories of the immortality of the soul, and the concept of the active intellect (also known as the active intelligence). This approach to the study of nature was strongly rejected by the early modern philosophers such as Francis Bacon, Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, and David Hume, all of whom preferred "understanding" (in place of "intellectus" or "intelligence") in their English philosophical works.[3][4] Hobbes for example, in his Latin De Corpore, used "intellectus intelligit", translated in the English version as "the understanding understandeth", as a typical example of a logical absurdity.[5] "Intelligence" has therefore become less common in English language philosophy, but it has later been taken up (with the scholastic theories which it now implies) in more contemporary psychology.[6]

Of course, the word goes back to the 1400's, thought, so it could have come in through French, or it could have come in through the Latin academic use of the term described above.

You're the one who was arguing the point that 'many' English words came directly from Latin - they didn't and you're wrong and now we all know you never studied the history of the English language you have learned something new.

I did not take a course on the topic. I offered a source (a YouTube video, maybe not very 'academic') that claimed that a large percentage came in through Latin without going through French and a page that showed a number of rather important words for English claimed to have come in through French.

The word 'intelligent' has it's roots in Latin but the word in English came via French (which came from the Latin word 'intellegens') - it didn't directly come from Latin -

Maybe it did. If it is important to you, you could look up an etymology that shows that, maybe study Old or Middle French or whatever stage French was in when the loan word came into English. I'd imagine someone has done the research on this and might have written an academic paper on it. It could be impossible to know whether it came from French or Latin. The first use may have been around 1400, much later than the Norman conquest.

there is no way it could have came directly from Latin into English because when Latin speaking cultures (The Romans) ruled the British Isles the English language didn't exist!

How is that relevant? Old English existed when Bede wrote that 'book Latin' was one of the languages spoken in England. There were monks and priests that read and/or spoke Latin and later scholars in various disciplines used it.

The French ruled England for 500 years and legal and the language of aristocracy was in French (or Anglo-Norman which was a dialect of French). The Magna Carta was in French.
[/youtube]

How 'French' were the Normans? The use of French as the language of court doesn't prove there were no derivations directly from Latin.

100 words isn't 'significant' at all when an educated persons vocabulary is between 17-20000 words.

There is some basic vocabulary that are used quite frequently.

The earliest forms of the English language didn't precede French by all that much within the British Isles - probably 500 years, the earliest forms of English was as alien to the British Isles as French and Latin is. The native tongues of Britain are the Brythonic language group which exists today as Welsh (with Cornish and Manx making a revival, Cumbric is all but a dead language).

The Anglo-Saxons had not conquered before that point. Their language existed on the mainland before they conquered England, too. But this doesn't have much to do with how Latin words got into the English language.

[MrMan]

Go on then, write down the top 100 used words in English and lets see how many come directly from Latin (as in loan words and deriviations directly sourced from a Latin word).

You and Spence can look up all the words if you want to. I have gone a different direction in my life. It doesn't matter to me as long as we can all use the words to communicate. I'm not writing dictionaries and it is unlikely that I will write any linguistics papers except if linguistics overlapped with some area I research.

[Spencer]

Go on then, write down the top 100 used words in English and lets see how many come directly from Latin (as in loan words and deriviations directly sourced from a Latin word).

You and Spence can look up all the words if you want to. I have gone a different direction in my life. It doesn't matter to me as long as we can all use the words to communicate. I'm not writing dictionaries and it is unlikely that I will write any linguistics papers except if linguistics overlapped with some area I research.

Let yick look up all the words top 1000 cus for me too much work and yick spend most time here hours everyday and before learn linguist major but despite that it seem mr man corect this time bout so many enlish word deriving direct from latin bypasing norman frenchy dilect

[yick]

That sounds more like lexicography, which overlaps somewhat with linguistics but wasn't my area of study. It is possible your courses focused on this.

Etymology

I don't remember the topic being discussed. It might have been in the intro class. I took a number of classes under a Proto-IndoEuropean expert who would derive words during lectures from dead languages and the reconstructed PIE protolanguage. The issue we were discussing was whether a large number of words came in through Latin rather than French. I pointed to a couple of sources that claimed this was the case. I don't care to put in the effort to verify these sources. You have made the claim that few words came in through Latin, and you haven't really shown any evidence for it.

And now you know they don't - the reason language gets adopted is through widespread use - pretty much impossible for Latin to come directly into English in this manner, what Latin influence came into English came via French.

The word 'intelligent' has it's roots in Latin but the word in English came via French (which came from the Latin word 'intellegens') - it didn't directly come from Latin - there is no way it could have came directly from Latin into English because when Latin speaking cultures (The Romans) ruled the British Isles the English language didn't exist! The French ruled England for 500 years and legal and the language of aristocracy was in French (or Anglo-Norman which was a dialect of French). The Magna Carta was in French.

There are many words for the meaning 'intelligent' in Latin the actual 'English' word for 'intelligent' is 'clever' which comes from the Frisian word 'klufer'

Of course, the word goes back to the 1400's, thought, so it could have come in through French, or it could have come in through the Latin academic use of the term described above.

How?

How could it have come into common use when most people didn't speak Latin - as in the vast majority? The word 'intelligent' is a loan word from French! What's your argument - for your argument to work - the word would have morphed into intelligent in England and then took to France but that didn't happen because French was the language of the ruling classes for 500 years in England and not the other way round.

I did not take a course on the topic. I offered a source (a YouTube video, maybe not very 'academic') that claimed that a large percentage came in through Latin without going through French and a page that showed a number of rather important words for English claimed to have come in through French.

You told me I was wrong and 'disagreed with my assessment' even though you know nothing about this subject as for your knowledge of linguistics, have you thought about a refund from your alma mater or were you asleep in class most of the time?

Maybe it did.

It did.

If it is important to you, you could look up an etymology that shows that, maybe study Old or Middle French or whatever stage French was in when the loan word came into English. I'd imagine someone has done the research on this and might have written an academic paper on it. It could be impossible to know whether it came from French or Latin. The first use may have been around 1400, much later than the Norman conquest.

It's not 'impossible' it obviously a loan word from French -

late 14c., "the highest faculty of the mind, capacity for comprehending general truths;" c. 1400, "faculty of understanding, comprehension," from Old French intelligence (12c.) and directly from Latin intelligentia, intellegentia "understanding, knowledge, power of discerning; art, skill, taste," from intelligentem (nominative intelligens) "discerning, appreciative," present participle of intelligere "to understand, comprehend, come to know," from assimilated form of inter "between" (see inter-) + legere "choose, pick out, read," from PIE root *leg- (1) "to collect, gather," with derivatives meaning "to speak (to 'pick out words')."

Meaning "superior understanding, sagacity, quality of being intelligent" is from early 15c. Sense of "information received or imparted, news" first recorded mid-15c., especially "secret information from spies" (1580s). Meaning "a being endowed with understanding or intelligence" is late 14c. Intelligence quotient first recorded 1921 (see I.Q.).

https://www.etymonline.com/word/intelligence

How is that relevant? Old English existed when Bede wrote that 'book Latin' was one of the languages spoken in England. There were monks and priests that read and/or spoke Latin and later scholars in various disciplines used it.

Latin was NOT one of the languages of England (as in spoken by the people....) it was the language of religion and academia - there was a reason why when the Magna Carta was written it was instantly translated into French.

How 'French' were the Normans? The use of French as the language of court doesn't prove there were no derivations directly from Latin.

Very - they were from Normandy - hence their name.

Well, prove all these English words that came directly from Latin - there might be 100 or a couple of hundred, no more than that. Whether it is a 100 or 200 - it's an insignificant amount within a persons vocabulary.

The Anglo-Saxons had not conquered before that point. Their language existed on the mainland before they conquered England, too. But this doesn't have much to do with how Latin words got into the English language.

What?