Russia's Invasion of Ukraine, aka "Putin's Special Operation"

[Voyager1]

@Yohan and @Voyager1:

I don't understand something. Why didn't Ukraine just remain neutral as Putin wanted, so this war would have been avoided completely? Very simple. Ukraine was neutral for a long time. Why change it? Is it really worth the lives of thousands of people just to get Ukraine into NATO? Isn't this war unnecessary? Isn't all this basic common sense? What is the problem exactly?

Ukraine wanted to get into NATO because they wanted the protection of NATO. The doctrine of NATO is if you attack one member, you attack all. So if Ukraine was a member of NATO February 26, 2022 and Russia invaded like they did then NATO would have been automatically at war with Russia.

Medvedev and putin have made it clear that they want the entire territory of Ukraine back with Russia with perhaps some exceptions of Western territories such as Lviv Oblast, though I think they'd happily take that too.

You can not trust anything Russia has to say. They make an agreement, they automatically break it. That is why it's important for the West to give Ukraine the arms and military support it needs to totally defeat Russia. I've explained this before. Ukrainians do not want to live under Russian rule and tyranny. They have before and know what it's like.

putin thinks the breakup of the Soviet Union was a mistake and wants to return Russia to her former glory and more. From Lisbon, Portugal to Vladivostok. Actually they want Alaska back too but I don't think the US would defend Alaska to the point of nuclear war.

The best thing for putin is an assassins bullet in his head. Then we'd have peace, at least in that region of the world.

[Yohan]

Yohan, I completely agree with you and all of your posts. You sound experienced, educated, logical and well-traveled. You see this situation from Japan, I look at it from educated Ukrainian point of view. I had no idea that we were blessed to live through our lives since 1945 in relative peace and stability, while also maintaining rule of law, free trade, international cooperation and security of travel.

You have clearly a deep-in knowledge how it is to live under Russian rule.
Thank you for your comment,

From your former postings I guess you were living somewhere in Ukraine and moved long ago to USA.

About myself, I do not see this Ukrainian situation only from Japan.

I am originally from Austria, living only 20 miles away from the iron curtain to Hungarian border in an area with many factories, I was born still in a Soviet administrated zone after WWII.

Life was not a joke at that time with Russian occupiers roaming around, raping every female between 7 and 70 years old and stealing and looting whatever they could find. A life without law and order in poverty. Most Austrian people around me, including my parents and relatives and neighbours were crazy, nobody was a normal human anymore after surviving the war bombings AND the Russian occupation.

The Russians left finally around 1955/1956 but insisted on 'reparations' over many years - therefore life out of poverty became only better around 1970. Working as a young man for a large travel agency, I visited all Eastern European countries including Russia many times up to my departure and I was shocked to see how poorly ordinary people were living on the other side of the iron curtain with nowhere to go.

You risked your life if you tried to escape East Europe and to move over to Western Europe. The order to border guards was to 'Shoot on sight' in former East Germany.

I moved away from Europe, now living more than 45 years in Japan, now retired.

[Yohan]

@Yohan and @Voyager1:
I don't understand something. Why didn't Ukraine just remain neutral as Putin wanted, so this war would have been avoided completely? Very simple. Ukraine was neutral for a long time. Why change it? Is it really worth the lives of thousands of people just to get Ukraine into NATO? Isn't this war unnecessary? Isn't all this basic common sense? What is the problem exactly?

Ukraine wanted to get into NATO because they wanted the protection of NATO. The doctrine of NATO is if you attack one member, you attack all. So if Ukraine was a member of NATO February 26, 2022 and Russia invaded like they did then NATO would have been automatically at war with Russia.

Medvedev and putin have made it clear that they want the entire territory of Ukraine back with Russia with perhaps some exceptions of Western territories such as Lviv Oblast, though I think they'd happily take that too.

You can not trust anything Russia has to say. They make an agreement, they automatically break it. That is why it's important for the West to give Ukraine the arms and military support it needs to totally defeat Russia. I've explained this before. Ukrainians do not want to live under Russian rule and tyranny. They have before and know what it's like.

You explained it very clearly, nothing what I can add to your comment.

putin thinks the breakup of the Soviet Union was a mistake and wants to return Russia to her former glory and more. From Lisbon, Portugal to Vladivostok. Actually they want Alaska back too but I don't think the US would defend Alaska to the point of nuclear war.

The best thing for putin is an assassins bullet in his head. Then we'd have peace, at least in that region of the world.

From Lisbon to Vladivostok only? LOL, check this link.

https://www.newsweek.com/russian-state- ... on-1847179

State TV propagandists routinely float the idea of either striking or seizing the territory of NATO members. The pair suggested Russia could invade the U.S. states of Alaska, California or Hawaii.

These people are far away from reality, they are hopeless dreamers.

They talk about Alaska, Hawaii, even California.... All this stupid talk cannot be taken seriously.

About Vladivostok, it is up to the Chinese government to reclaim it back from Russia:

The area that is now Vladivostok was ruled by various states, such as the Mohe, the Goguryeo, the Balhae and the later Liao, Jīn and Ming dynasties. The area was ceded by China to Russia as a result of the Treaty of Aigun of 1858 and the Treaty of Peking of 1860.

China has a historical claim to Vladivostok, which was handed to Tsarist Russia in 1860 as part of the Treaty of Peking. Under the treaty, the boundary between China and Russia was set along the Amur and Ussuri Rivers, which gave Russia access to Vladivostok, a major port city in Russia's Far East.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_de ... ese_people
Soviet deportations of Chinese people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... viet_Union
Deportation of Koreans in the Soviet Union

Interesting reading about how Chinese and Koreans were treated by Russians in Vladivostok.

Somehow strange that now Russia is complaining that Ukraine wants Russians out of Ukraine....double standard?

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

Lots of Ukraine supporters here, but too bad Ukraine will have a bad ending.
I know have2fly khokhol crybaby is upset, but it's inevitable.

[Voyager1]

Lots of Ukraine supporters here, but too bad Ukraine will have a bad ending.
I know have2fly khokhol crybaby is upset, but it's inevitable.

Opinions are like a$$holes and this guy's got one.

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

[Yohan]

Lots of Ukraine supporters here, but too bad Ukraine will have a bad ending.

It depends what you consider as a 'bad ending'. What is your definition of a 'bad ending' for Ukraine.

It is not so easy to remove a country which is as large as France and with more than 30 million people so easily from the map and to tell these citizens you belong again to Russia.

About supporters, only a few countries come to my mind which are actively supporting Russia to achieve this.... Iran, North Korea, Belarus of course....

Below is a list, but mixed up. There is no difference made between friendly (offering support) and neutral (doing nothing, just don't care)
-------------------------------------------------------
https://www.intellinews.com/russia-issu ... es-293924/

September 24, 2023
The Russian government has officially approved a list of more than 30 “friendly” and neutral countries, as the sanctions war with the West continues to rage.

Russia’s friendly and neutral countries list is as follows:

Azerbaijan
Armenia
Belarus
Kyrgyzstan
Tajikistan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Algeria
Bangladesh
Bahrain
Brazil
Venezuela
Vietnam
Egypt
India
Indonesia
Iran
Qatar
China
Cuba
Malaysia
Morocco
Mongolia
United Arab Emirates
Oman
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
Serbia
Thailand
Turkey
South Africa

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

Lots of Ukraine supporters here, but too bad Ukraine will have a bad ending.

It depends what you consider as a 'bad ending'. What is your definition of a 'bad ending' for Ukraine.

It is not so easy to remove a government of a country which is as large as France and with more than 30 million people so easily from the map and to tell these citizens you belong again to a vassal state of Russia...

About supporters, only a few countries come to my mind which are actively supporting Russia to achieve this.... Iran, North Korea, Belarus of course....

Below is a list, but mixed up. There is no difference made between friendly (offering support) and neutral (doing nothing, just don't care)

-------------------------------------------------------

https://www.intellinews.com/russia-issu ... es-293924/
September 24, 2023
The Russian government has officially approved a list of more than 30 “friendly” and neutral countries, as the sanctions war with the West continues to rage.

Russia’s friendly and neutral countries list is as follows:

Azerbaijan
Armenia
Belarus
Kyrgyzstan
Tajikistan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Algeria
Bangladesh
Bahrain
Brazil
Venezuela
Vietnam
Egypt
India
Indonesia
Iran
Qatar
China
Cuba
Malaysia
Morocco
Mongolia
United Arab Emirates
Oman
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
Serbia
Thailand
Turkey
South Africa

Yohan, I already told you what the ending would be. Jesus. Ukraine capitulates, they agree to stay neutral and not join NATO, and they will have to hand over all of the lands at the Eastern side of the Dnieper river and let the russians use Odessa port in 99 year lease, just like they did with Crimea. Ukraine "maybe" have to pay reparations to Russia and Ukraine will remain demilitarized and their army number have to be low.
That's the ending folks.

[Yohan]

Yohan, I already told you what the ending would be. Jesus. Ukraine capitulates, they agree to stay neutral and not join NATO, and they will have to hand over all of the lands at the Eastern side of the Dnieper river and let the russians use Odessa port in 99 year lease, just like they did with Crimea.

Ukraine "maybe" have to pay reparations to Russia and Ukraine will remain demilitarized and their army number have to be low.
That's the ending folks.

This is the first time in my life to hear that the invaded country might have to pay reparations to the aggressor.... LOL

There was no problem for former neutral Finland and Sweden to join NATO too, as they are already members of the EU.

About NATO and EU, Ukraine and some other countries do not fit the required criteria to be allowed to join despite they like to be accepted in both organizations.

Ukrainian border line with Russia might change a little but surely not so much as you suggest. Leasing Odesa port? For what? Russia has undisputed ports like Novorossiysk connected to the Russian railway network and directly located at the Black Sea.

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

Yohan, I already told you what the ending would be. Jesus. Ukraine capitulates, they agree to stay neutral and not join NATO, and they will have to hand over all of the lands at the Eastern side of the Dnieper river and let the russians use Odessa port in 99 year lease, just like they did with Crimea.

Ukraine "maybe" have to pay reparations to Russia and Ukraine will remain demilitarized and their army number have to be low.
That's the ending folks.

This is the first time in my life to hear that the invaded country might have to pay reparations to the aggressor.... LOL

There was no problem for former neutral Finland and Sweden to join NATO too, as they are already members of the EU.

About NATO and EU, Ukraine and some other countries do not fit the required criteria to be allowed to join despite they like to be accepted in both organizations.

Ukrainian border line with Russia might change a little but surely not so much as you suggest. Leasing Odesa port? For what? Russia has undisputed ports like Novorossiysk connected to the Russian railway network and directly located at the Black Sea.

I said "maybe" not "definitely". Russia might or might not demand reparations because they are in the position of strength against Ukraine. Sounds silly, but Russians lost lot of men and equipment, at least the Ukrainians will pay for the losses.. who know what the Russians will demand next.. I won't go further.

Nope. Russia will take all the land at the East of Dnieper River. The River acts as an effective natural barrier and wall spliting the country in half.
In addition, lot of pro russian population at the East of the Dnieper River and lots of natural resources and factories at the East.

Leasing Odessa port is to effectively lock off Ukraine from sea trade. So Ukraine can't grow it's economy and independence. If Ukraine wants to ship its goods then they have to pay "tariff" to the Russians first. Ukraine will only use Russian oil and gas pipeline and Russia will cut off all Ukrainian trade from the West. I think, that would be another demand from Russia.. I am not sure. Turning Ukraine into an obedient satillete state just like belorussia. I think that's what Putin wants ultimately. Not invade Europe up to portegual like some video game like Command and Conquar Red Alert 1.

Well that's the ending folks.

[have2fly]

@have2fly


Yes.. yes.. to be clear, I was having a debate with Yohan, but you came in and called me a "dumbass". Do you have a habit of popping out in the middle of the debate and insulting people you don't agree with? That's why I asked "where the f*ck did you came from."



F*ck you, cuck. I didn't advocate for Russian style, Chinese style, or Venezuelan style in any part of this thread. WTF are you talking about? Are you on the crack pipe? Sure.. Western American style is the lesser of two evils and Western American style sure grants lot of people with lot of great opportunities. I don't deny that. My main premise/theme is that "Ukraine is f*cked whether NATO/West, you and others like it or not." That is my main premise and I didn't say anything about adopting communism or totalitarianism. If you don't like what I am saying then f*ck off.



You too. And I didn't post anything about Donald Trump is the Greatest thing since sliced bread or being orange Jesus, you retard.
And have you ever lived in Detroit, Cleveland Ohio, Paterson NJ or Compton LA? There are no roads, no jobs, lot of gangbangers, drug dealers, and no hope at all. Everything in America is over regulated, corporations are acting like feudal lords watching over their employee/serf's every move, and Rule of Law can be circumvented with enough political connections and lobbying in America. You have very little protection, security, no guardians, no reliable way to protect your assets. Big corporations and big government can f*ck over the little guys and there is no recourse for the little guys. However, America wants you to believe that American Dream marketing propaganda sh*t. Life in America is constant trap. Even Winston Wu said so, if you have been here since 2008 then you would know. I am not saying Chinese and Russian way of doing things are better. They are just as worst.
American style is just lesser of two evils.

It is not an insult, it is conveying the fact. You are repeating every dumb word of Russian propaganda.
If you are not advocating for Russian style of life or Chinese, then what are you advocating for? International politics cannot be void of control and governance. Educated people understand this, people like you do not.
Ukraine is a war-torn destroyed country, destroyed no no one else, but Russia. So your point is? We stop helping Ukraine, just so we start fighting and helping Lithuania and Moldova next? Russians are conscripting Ukrainians from occupied territories, so if all of Ukraine gets occupied, those Ukrainians will be fighting against us. Is that what you want?
Yeah, you did not post anything about orange monkey, but you repeated every single word of his BS arguments. I did, in fact, live in shitty American rustbelt cities. Some parts feel like you are in Africa. I completely agree. But 95% of Russia is like that while maybe 5% of the US is like that. You actually have roads in Detroit, even though they are rundown, but paved. In Russia you have dirt-roads. You actually have amazing protection in the US as soon as you get out of the ghetto. Big corporations own everything all over the world, so again your point is? Did I even say anything about American Dream? Life in America is not a constant trap, your property cannot be easily confiscated by local police using some black market realtor like they do in Russia. Most laws actually work in the US. You have amazing security and protection in the US, you can even live in the gated community in a place like the Villages in Florida where people just f*ck and chill enjoying their retirement. Did you ever see how poor Russian seniors are? 99 percent of them get a pension of around 150-200 dollars per month, which is barely enough to pay for their housing bills. There are no 401k plans, no decent savings and no path to survive. Grandmas are digging piles of trash for food. Russians get shocked when they see 80 year old seniors in the US driving new Cadillacs living in mansions, it is completely unthinkable in Russia for old people. In the same time Russian regime constantly scares their senior population that if they don't vote for their midget dicktator they won't get their pension. Is that the kind of retirement that you want?
Another fact is Russians are pouring through the border with Mexico, they want to live in the US and they are asking for asylum. Thousands of them want to come here. Why would they do it if life in Russia is decent?

I am conveying my facts too.
I am not a trump supporter, and I am not a Russian Z-bot either. My premise still stands whether you and Yohan likes it or not. The earlier you accept, the better.

Ask Winston Wu and others about living in America and American law. You will find all of them hating on America constantly.

Not all old people live in Florida Mansions and drive expensive Cadillacs. Come on, get real. Probably some corporate CEO, Wall street banker, real estate mogul sharks who ripped off the little guys enjoying their retirement at the expense of the masses.

And even if you paid off the mortgage of your home, the local town still owns the land under your property. If you don't pay property tax every year even by couple of cents, then the town can put a "lien" on your property and take it away.

American healthcare cost is a nightmare, tens of millions file for medical bankruptcy and I've seen plenty of elderly homeless freezing to death too.
Laws can be rewritten and amended for the benefits of big corporations and American police mostly shoot, arrest first and then ask questions later.

I don't deny Russia has serious problems too, but America isn't all sunshine and rainbows either.

You absolutely are a supporter of orange monkey. What is your premise? Repeating Russian propaganda?
I know about life in America, I spent half of my life here. This forum used to be about finding friends and getting girls, this is where America is lacking. But now the world is being turned into a chaotic dump by aspiring dicktators, where you have to think about survival only. I absolutely hate old c*nts in Russia and China that think they need to destroy the world.
Not all old Americans live in mansions, but the number of wealthy old Americans is enormous vs Russia. Something like 50% of American seniors are well-off, something like 0.5% of Russian seniors are well-off.
Yes, you have to pay property taxes in the US. It sucks, you have to rely on passive income, such as investment and retirement when you get old. This is the way this system is built. Yet again your point is? Is Russian or Chinese system better?
American healthcare is the only real problem that needs to get fixed. But is Russian healthcare amazing? Plenty of Russian homeless freeze to death. So?
American police mostly shoot first? You are a complete retard. I had been pulled over dozens of times over my lifetime, including participating in huge college parties with riot police showing up to disperse the crowd. I was never shot or even pointed a gun. Maybe because I was respectful and never caused trouble? In fact I only had respectful decent interaction with American police in all states I had lived and visited. Not a single bad situation I can remember.

I never said I supported Trump. Just because you think I "sound" like him doesn't mean I support Trump. Quit trying to accuse me of something that I am not. I though you were educated Ukrainian men and I though your better than that

Winston and his buddies say the same thing how America sucks Ad Nauseum. I didn't say everybody should transition to Chinese or Russian System. Why are you keep throwing baseless accusations towards me like a real dumbass instead of offering some valid arguments?

Your the stupid retard that says America is needed to hold World Peace. Get your head out of your ass. America is an opportunistic snake that instigate wars for their own profit. For an educated men, you sure are a narrow minded fool who likes to insult people he doesn't agree with. Please tell me more about the "U.S.A is the best" propaganda you stupid f*cking jerkoff. You didn't convince me. You can f*ck off now. Thanks.

Until you say what is the alternative to American global leadership, you are officially full of shit and worthless. What should be the world system without America and NATO? I am all ears.

[have2fly]

Yohan, I already told you what the ending would be. Jesus. Ukraine capitulates, they agree to stay neutral and not join NATO, and they will have to hand over all of the lands at the Eastern side of the Dnieper river and let the russians use Odessa port in 99 year lease, just like they did with Crimea.

Ukraine "maybe" have to pay reparations to Russia and Ukraine will remain demilitarized and their army number have to be low.
That's the ending folks.

This is the first time in my life to hear that the invaded country might have to pay reparations to the aggressor.... LOL

There was no problem for former neutral Finland and Sweden to join NATO too, as they are already members of the EU.

About NATO and EU, Ukraine and some other countries do not fit the required criteria to be allowed to join despite they like to be accepted in both organizations.

Ukrainian border line with Russia might change a little but surely not so much as you suggest. Leasing Odesa port? For what? Russia has undisputed ports like Novorossiysk connected to the Russian railway network and directly located at the Black Sea.

I said "maybe" not "definitely". Russia might or might not demand reparations because they are in the position of strength against Ukraine. Sounds silly, but Russians lost lot of men and equipment, at least the Ukrainians will pay for the losses.. who know what the Russians will demand next.. I won't go further.

Nope. Russia will take all the land at the East of Dnieper River. The River acts as an effective natural barrier and wall spliting the country in half.
In addition, lot of pro russian population at the East of the Dnieper River and lots of natural resources and factories at the East.

Leasing Odessa port is to effectively lock off Ukraine from sea trade. So Ukraine can't grow it's economy and independence. If Ukraine wants to ship its goods then they have to pay "tariff" to the Russians first. Ukraine will only use Russian oil and gas pipeline and Russia will cut off all Ukrainian trade from the West. I think, that would be another demand from Russia.. I am not sure. Turning Ukraine into an obedient satillete state just like belorussia. I think that's what Putin wants ultimately. Not invade Europe up to portegual like some video game like Command and Conquar Red Alert 1.

Well that's the ending folks.

Все понятно. Ты просто ебаный кремлебот. Идешь нахуй вместе со своим лилипутом царем. Хуй за щеку тебе, а не порт в Одессе.

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

@have2fly

Sorry, I don't understand your Cyrillic "moon speak" at the end. This is so stupid.
I'm not going to waste any more of my time arguing with you, you narrow minded imbecile.
Why don't you f*ck off you imbecile? Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Are you retarded? What the f*ck is wrong with you?
You act like f*cking Billy Madison on horse tranquilizers.
Is that all you got? calling me names and crying about how I am a Kremlin bot?
You really are a pathetic crybaby. You are a waste of my time. Jesus.. you are so depressing.
At least Yohan offers counter arguments, you offer NONE! You act like a 12 year old in a 39 year old body. You must been suffering from "arrested development." I'm just going to put you in my ignore list now. Bye, khuylo. Yob Tvoyu Mat, Yobani v Rot Khokhol. Ti bolshoy durak. Ti bolshoy Govno. Zakroy svoy rot.

[Voyager1]

NBC you don't know what war means. Get the F out of this forum.

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

NBC you don't know what war means. Get the F out of this forum.

Like I need any advice from you, you f*cking twat. You make me laugh.
You get the f*ck out, you annoying little c*nt. No body cares what you think because your just a Grade "A" c*cksucking dumbass.
F*cking f@ggot. Go fight in the trenches in Ukraine then you stupid jerkoff instead of posting that Western properganda bullsh*t movie, you dipsh*t. I'll be watching how well you fight and dodging Russian artillery shells and glide bombs. If you talk the talk, you better walk to walk. F*ckboy.