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Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

Discuss conspiracies, mysteries and paranormal phenomena.
Moretorque
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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

Post by Moretorque »

flowerthief00 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 6:58 am
Moretorque wrote:
April 29th, 2020, 7:08 am
Both Japan and China were conquered by the same people who conquered the USA, open a real history book of old and not one of the current ones being put out by the monied cartels....
So the Russians were in on it too, huh. Japan and China were in on it too, or they were having their strings pulled by the REAL puppetmasters. The "small" group of astronauts and TV land and mission control are paid off with phony credits, people are getting 86'ed, history books aren't real history books, etc etc. The conspiracy theory begets more conspiracy theories which beget more conspiracy theories and the implausibility of the whole thing grows without bounds.

This is why it is almost always a pointless exercise to argue with conspiracists. There is no common sense argument that they don't try to explain with a new CT, or with "they could have just done this", no matter how big a stretch "this" is. Never do they stop and consider, hey, what is really actually more likely: That the conventional narrative in which the science checks out, supporting evidence is strong, key players have stood by their testimony, etc is legit? Or that a long string of unlikelihoods all lined up in just the way my imagination has carried me off to to imply a conspiracy theory on a grand scale? (the scale of the moon landings CT is one of the grander ones I've heard)

I guess that's where the fun of it is. The deeper you reach into the bag of nuts the more nuts you pull out, so you never grow bored or run out of things to conspiracy theorize about.
Actually the Russians were, they were told to shut up and they would give them technology and other stuff such as food from America. Japan and China are just conquered vassels like America and Russia.

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flowerthief00
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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

Post by flowerthief00 »

gsjackson wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 8:11 am
You don't ever deal in specifics, do you? Things like the death rate of covid-19....
Specifics aren't the reason conspiracy theories get rightly marginalized by most sane people. As Dr. Grande mentioned in one of his vids, both those who believe in CTs and those who don't are equally informed about the news and facts. The discrepancy is in critical thinking. Though CT fanatics love to frame it as a matter of the general population not knowing or not open to knowing the "real" story. They think that if the rest of us would just read this article here or listen to that podcast there then we would believe!

That there was an overreaction to a new disease which was not yet well understood and which the world population was naive to (meaning that it could spread rapidly) is not the same thing as saying that there was some sinister conspiracy among world leaders to deliberately destroy the world's economy for some hidden motive as an end greater than the end of combatting the disease itself. It's a good illustration of the difference between critical thinking and conspiracy theory thinking in that those who engage in the latter do not stop there, but go on to make guesses backed by dubious and/or unscientific evidence and leaps of logic.

Yep, of course conspiracy theorists would have a conspiracy theory for even the origin of "conspiracy theory".

Incidentally, Wikipedia's summary of the term (which makes no mention of the origin you allude to) is below:


A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful actors, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable. The term has a pejorative connotation, implying that the appeal to a conspiracy is based on prejudice or insufficient evidence. Conspiracy theories resist falsification and are reinforced by circular reasoning: both evidence against the conspiracy and an absence of evidence for it are re-interpreted as evidence of its truth, whereby the conspiracy becomes a matter of faith rather than something that can be proved or disproved.

Research suggests that conspiracist ideation—belief in conspiracy theories—can be psychologically harmful or pathological and that it is highly correlated with psychological projection, paranoia and Machiavellianism. Conspiracy theories once limited to fringe audiences have become commonplace in mass media, emerging as a cultural phenomenon of the late 20th and early 21st centuries.



Though @gsjackson might think that articles on the biggest free encyclopedia are written by "useful idiots" seeking "a little cheap thrill of superiority", the rest is also worth reading for anyone interested in understanding why some CT persist no matter how many times they get debunked.

The popularity of CT is itself being studied these days. Somebody even estimated how long it would probably take for various CT to have been exposed were they actually real, supporting what I said in my original post.


The physicist David Robert Grimes estimated the time it would take for a conspiracy to be exposed based on the number of people involved. His calculations used data from the PRISM surveillance program, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, and the FBI forensic scandal. Grimes estimated that:
  • a Moon landing hoax would require the involvement of 411,000 people and would be exposed within 3.68 years
  • climate-change fraud would require 405,000 people and would be exposed within 3.70 years
  • a vaccination conspiracy would require a minimum of 22,000 people (without drug companies) and would be exposed within at least 3.15 years and at most 34.78 years depending on the number involved
  • a conspiracy to suppress a cure for cancer would require 714,000 people and would be exposed within 3.17 years.

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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

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60 Minutes Australia claims that all conspiracy theories are false and contradictory with no real evidence, because the government says so and never lies, and you should agree with them if you are sane. lol



Of course, blanket statements like that and extreme generalizations are always untrue. Every wise philosopher and thinker and common sense person knows that. So why does 60 Minutes Australia and their "experts" not know that? And why is it that outside of America, everyone knows conspiracies are real and obvious, and only some Americans deny them?

Btw the "expert" above is very uneducated and uninformed. The Princess Diana murder was officially ruled an "unlawful killing" in a civil court of law, because the jurors agreed that the REAL evidence indicated she was murdered and assassinated, which the mainstream media did not report on, which was very irresponsible journalism. See the documentary "Unlawful Killing" which reveals all this, which even CNN's Piers Morgan agreed with and was featured in.

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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

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flowerthief00 wrote:
May 1st, 2020, 10:06 pm
The popularity of CT is itself being studied these days. Somebody even estimated how long it would probably take for various CT to have been exposed were they actually real, supporting what I said in my original post.


The physicist David Robert Grimes estimated the time it would take for a conspiracy to be exposed based on the number of people involved. His calculations used data from the PRISM surveillance program, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, and the FBI forensic scandal. Grimes estimated that:
  • a Moon landing hoax would require the involvement of 411,000 people and would be exposed within 3.68 years
  • climate-change fraud would require 405,000 people and would be exposed within 3.70 years
  • a vaccination conspiracy would require a minimum of 22,000 people (without drug companies) and would be exposed within at least 3.15 years and at most 34.78 years depending on the number involved
  • a conspiracy to suppress a cure for cancer would require 714,000 people and would be exposed within 3.17 years.

Many of those conspiracies and others have in fact been EXPOSED by researchers and in many books and documentaries that are very well done. But the problem is, the US government and media refuse to acknowledge that they've been exposed. Just because someone denies something doesn't make it untrue. Any liar or criminal can deny something, but that doesn't mean he's honest or truthful, just because he denies it. That's an obvious fallacy from those who believe that all conspiracies are false and government never lies, and the mainstream media is not controlled, which is a fantasy of course.

Everyone outside of America understands this. Only brainwashed Americans claim no conspiracies exist or that all of them are untrue and have no evidence to support them. Any smart person knows that such blanket statements and extreme generalizations are untrue.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

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@WorldTraveler

You told me once that you believed that SOME conspiracies are true. You gave me the name of 2 or 3 books that exposed some real conspiracies. Can you list them here? I don't remember the titles you gave me. Can you also summarize or briefly explain which conspiracies in those books are actually TRUE and proven?

Those who deny conspiracies in general never actually give examples of conspiracies they consider to be true and proven.
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MrPeabody
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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

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For the most part, conspiracy theories ARE bullshit. We live in an extremely complicated world with a global interconnected economy. Furthermore, there are large gaps in information because of greed and ambition of elites and the motivation to deceive in order to gain or maintain power. It is doubtful that any one person understands the totally of what is happening. But simple minds can’t just say “I don’t know”, but need to believe they have an answer. I believe many if not most of the conspiracy theorists are opportunists who know they are making things up to gain naïve followers. The “information” they provide is even lower quality than the mainstream. They weren’t able to predict the Covid virus, but now that it is a reality, they pretend they knew all along and that they are privy to the plan.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

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MrPeabody wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 6:35 am
For the most part, conspiracy theories ARE bullshit. We live in an extremely complicated world with a global interconnected economy. Furthermore, there are large gaps in information because of greed and ambition of elites and the motivation to deceive in order to gain or maintain power. It is doubtful that any one person understands the totally of what is happening. But simple minds can’t just say “I don’t know”, but need to believe they have an answer. I believe many if not most of the conspiracy theorists are opportunists who know they are making things up to gain naïve followers. The “information” they provide is even lower quality than the mainstream. They weren’t able to predict the Covid virus, but now that it is a reality, they pretend they knew all along and that they are privy to the plan.
Some have predicted that there would be some kind of pandemic yeah. But they weren't specific. The movie "Contagion" predicted this bat/swine flu pandemic too. Also, didn't you hear that many elites took out their money in stocks before the pandemic because they knew something was coming? Same with 9-11. Some people had foreknowledge and removed their stocks accordingly. There are many articles about that. It's not coincidence. A pattern by definition is not coincidence.

You said most conspiracy theories are BS. Isn't that a generalization? Aren't extreme generalizations obviously untrue and illogical? How do you define a conspiracy? By the dictionary definition, it's a nefarous plot between two or more people. That's not out of the realm of possibility. The fact that some events are orchestrated and planned and then covered up, is not a theory. That's a fact. If you mean that there is a group cabal running the world, well yeah that's an exaggeration, but it has some truth to it. Most people do sense a hidden hand or puppet master behind the scenes.

Many US Presidents, politicians, leaders and bankers have warned us about a conspiracy or hidden hands behind the scenes too. See here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=28870

How do you explain all those quotes @MrPeabody and @WorldTraveler and @Contrarian Expatriate?

Are you saying that you deny that even a deep state exists?

You said "most conspiracies are BS". That means not all right? Can you name some conspiracies you believe are true? Can you give some examples?
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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

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@MrPeabody and @WorldTraveler and @Contrarian Expatriate, how do you explain all these quotes from great leaders and great men that warn us of conspiracies and hidden hands and invisible rulers and shadow governments behind the scenes? I asked you several times about this WorldTraveler, but you keep dodging and avoiding the question. Why? Is it because stubborn men like you don't like to change their beliefs, even if they should because the evidence warrants it? Like HappyGuy said, women are children are open to new information and data, while men are not. Either way, please read all these quotes guys and take them into consideration. Don't just pretend they don't exist like you guys did before.

http://consciouslifenews.com/verified-w ... e/1136001/

Dire Warnings From Past U.S. Presidents and Other High-Profile Leaders About an “Invisible Government” That Runs the U.S. With “No Allegiance To the People”

George Washington

“It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am. The idea that I meant to convey, was, that I did not believe that the Lodges of Free Masons in this Country had, as Societies, endeavoured to propagate the diabolical tenets of the first, or pernicious principles of the latter (if they are susceptible of seperation). That Individuals of them may… actually had a seperation [sic] of the People from their Government in view, is too evident to be questioned.” – George Washington, 1st President of the United States (1789–1797), from a letter that Washington wrote on October 24, 1798, which can be found in the Library of Congress.

Thomas Jefferson

“I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.” — Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States (1801–1809) and principal author of the United States Declaration of Independence (1776), in a letter written to John Taylor on May 28, 1816

John C. Calhoun

“A power has risen up in the government greater than the people themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interests, combined in one mass, and held together by the cohesive power of the vast surplus in banks.” – John C. Calhoun, Vice President (1825-1832) and U.S. Senator, from a speech given on May 27, 1836

Note that it appears that Washington’s and Jefferson’s concerns regarding bankers and separation of the people from the government was realized by 1836. This fact was confirmed in a letter written by FDR in 1933 (see below) in which he wrote that “a financial element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson.” Jackson was the seventh president of the United States (1829-1937). Calhoun served as Jackson’s vice-president from 1829-1932.

Theodore Roosevelt

“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.”— Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President of the United States, Theodore Roosevelt, An Autobiography, 1913 (Appendix B)

Woodrow Wilson

“A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men… [W]e have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world—no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men.” – Woodrow Wilson, 28th President of the United States, The New Freedom, 1913

“Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men’s views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.” – Woodrow Wilson, 28th President of the United States, The New Freedom, 1913

John F. Hylan

“The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government, which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy legs over our cities, states and nation… The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control both parties, … and control the majority of the newspapers and magazines in this country. They use the columns of these papers to club into submission or drive out of office public officials who refuse to do the bidding of the powerful corrupt cliques which compose the invisible government. It operates under cover of a self-created screen [and] seizes our executive officers, legislative bodies, schools, courts, newspapers and every agency created for the public protection.” – New York City Mayor John F. Hylan, New York Times, March 26, 1922

Edward Bernays

“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country… We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.” – Edward Bernays (“the father of public relations”), Propaganda, 1928 (note that Bernays’ book, Propaganda, begins with the above quote).

Louis T. McFadden

“Mr. Chairman, we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. The Federal Reserve Board, a Government board, has cheated the Government of the United States and the people of the United States out of enough money to pay the national debt…Mr. Chairman, when the Federal Reserve act was passed, the people of the United States did not perceive that a world system was being set up here… and that this country was to supply financial power to an international superstate — a superstate controlled by international bankers and international industrialists acting together to enslave the world for their own pleasure.” – Congressman Louis T. McFadden, from a speech delivered to the House of Representatives on June 10, 1932

Franklin D. Roosevelt

“The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson.” — Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 32nd President of the United States (1933–1945), in a letter to Colonel Edward M House dated November 21, 1933, as quoted in F.D.R.: His Personal Letters, 1928-1945.

William Jenner

“Today the path to total dictatorship in the U.S. can be laid by strictly legal means… We have a well-organized political-action group in this country, determined to destroy our Constitution and establish a one-party state… It operates secretly, silently, continuously to transform our Government… This ruthless power-seeking elite is a disease of our century… This group…is answerable neither to the President, the Congress, nor the courts. It is practically irremovable.” – Senator William Jenner, 1954 speech

J. Edgar Hoover

“The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst. It rejects even the assumption that human creatures could espouse a philosophy which must ultimately destroy all that is good and decent.” — J. Edgar Hoover, The Elks Magazine, 1956

Dwight D. Eisenhower

“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.” – Dwight D. Eisenhower, 34th President of the United States,, January 1961 Speech

John F. Kennedy

“The very word “secrecy” is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings… Our way of life is under attack. Those who make themselves our enemy are advancing around the globe… no war ever posed a greater threat to our security. If you are awaiting a finding of “clear and present danger,” then I can only say that the danger has never been more clear and its presence has never been more imminent… For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence–on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed.” — John F Kennedy, 35th President of the United States, from a speech delivered to the American Newspaper Publishers Association on April 27, 1961 and known as the “Secret Society” speech.

Larry P. McDonald

“The Rockefellers and their allies have, for at least fifty years, been carefully following a plan to use their economic power to gain political control of first America, and then the rest of the world. Do I mean conspiracy? Yes, I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent.” - Congressman Larry P. McDonald, November 1975, from the introduction to a book titled The Rockefeller File.

Daniel K. Inouye

“There exists a shadowy government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself.” – Daniel K. Inouye, US Senator from Hawaii, testimony at the Iran Contra Hearings, 1986
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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

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Check this out. One of the most credible, objective and down to earth journalists, Bill Moyers, even says that a deep state and shadow government exist in America. See below. How do you guys explain that? @MrPeabody and @WorldTraveler and @Contrarian Expatriate?



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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

Post by Winston »

Are conspiracy theories crazy? Are they false or true? Check out this funny witty lecture by Andy Thomas about conspiracy theories. It's much more objective, interesting and informative than those videos above by the controlled mainstream media which make blanket claims that all conspiracy theories are false by default. This is a must see for extremists like @WorldTraveler and @MrPeabody and @Contrarian Expatriate. You extremist guys definitely need to see this eye opening lecture. It's very informative and educational and you will learn a lot from it. Please watch it you guys.

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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

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It's actually boils down to this. If you propose a conspiracy, the burden on you is to provide evidence to prove it. And the more unlikely it is, the more evidence is required. How many of these conspiracy theories proposed by scam artists today have any evidence to back them up? Of course, the premise behind them is that what is being done is secret and behind closed doors. So how do they know about it? Provide a link to one conspiracy theory that has a mountain of evidence to support it.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

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Also, you should read Chomsky. Chomsky’s basic assumption was that for anything to be done in the world it has to be implemented by a government and the policies formally written down in government documents. Chomsky used the freedom of information act to find many government documents of bad deeds that were unknown to the public. Under this model, conspiracies are not the focus of investigation. Chomsky is a true scientist and knows that the basis for truth is a reliable source of data.
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Contrarian Expatriate
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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

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MrPeabody wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 6:35 am
For the most part, conspiracy theories ARE bullshit. We live in an extremely complicated world with a global interconnected economy.
Precisely. Anyone who believes in a conspiracy that has no credible evidence backing it up is a blithering idiot. Case closed.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

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Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 12:39 pm
MrPeabody wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 6:35 am
For the most part, conspiracy theories ARE bullshit. We live in an extremely complicated world with a global interconnected economy.
Precisely. Anyone who believes in a conspiracy that has no credible evidence backing it up is a blithering idiot. Case closed.
Just go look what the FED has been doing over the last 9 months or so, go look at the bail outs Bernie Sanders saw when he did a partial Audit back in 2011 of the FED books..... As of late they have been scrubbing this info from the net because they do not want you to figure out who your real rulers are and that everythting you think you know for the most part about the way the world works is indeed false....
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Re: Conspiracy Theories Are Illogical

Post by Contrarian Expatriate »

Moretorque wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 12:57 pm
Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 12:39 pm
MrPeabody wrote:
June 25th, 2020, 6:35 am
For the most part, conspiracy theories ARE bullshit. We live in an extremely complicated world with a global interconnected economy.
Precisely. Anyone who believes in a conspiracy that has no credible evidence backing it up is a blithering idiot. Case closed.
Just go look what the FED has been doing over the last 9 months or so, go look at the bail outs Bernie Sanders saw when he did a partial Audit back in 2011 of the FED books..... As of late they have been scrubbing this info from the net because they do not want you to figure out who your real rulers are and that everythting you think you know for the most part about the way the world works is indeed false....
That's not a conspiracy. That is just flawed monetary policy. Not everything is a secret plot hidden from the public view.

If you have a conspiracy theory you want to discuss, show some CREDIBLE evidence of it or be looked upon as a nutjob. By the way, your feelings do not constitute credible evidence.
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