Momopi's disbelief in the Afterlife

[Winston]

Note: These posts were split from another thread cause they were going off topic.


Momopi,
How do you know there's no afterlife? That's one of life's greatest mysteries.

We don't even understand what consciousness is or how it's produced.

How do you explain the mountain of evidence for ghosts? Or NDE's? Pam Reynolds had a full blown NDE even though her heart and mind were stopped completely. And some NDEers see objects far away that are later verified to be accurate.

What about the evidence here: http://www.victorzammit.com

How do you explain past life memories that are verified to be very accurate down to specific details, dates, names, of a unique nature, etc?

So everyone,
Why is it that if you rise and go to sleep in tune with the cycle of the sun, that it seems to make you healthier? Native Americans and ancient people did that. How does it work, I mean, that the sun and your body move in the same cycles and rhythms? Must be a metaphysical thing.

I heard that graveyard workers tend to have poor health cause their sleep pattern is against the natural cycle?

[momopi]

One of my first jobs was a contract gig at Fairhaven Mortuary and Cemetary.

When you die, you're dead. You arrive in a bag and we bury you in a box. Done.

The most excitment we got was chasing kids out of cemetaries. Some sneak in late at night for sex, others are devil worshipper wanna be's and spray paint pentagrams on the grass and place quarters around with candles. We'd chase the kids away and use the quarters at the vending machine to buy soda.

If ghosts come out of dead bodies, then statistically speaking after you process enough dead bodies from hospital to morgue, you should at least bump into one. Nope, no ghosts. No after-life, no reincarnation, no heaven, no hell, no limbo, nada. If you disagree, just wait until you die and you'll find out.

[Winston]

One of my first jobs was a contract gig at Fairhaven Mortuary and Cemetary.

When you die, you're dead. You arrive in a bag and we bury you in a box. Done.

The most excitment we got was chasing kids out of cemetaries. Some sneak in late at night for sex, others are devil worshipper wanna be's and spray paint pentagrams on the grass and place quarters around with candles. We'd chase the kids away and use the quarters at the vending machine to buy soda.

If ghosts come out of dead bodies, then statistically speaking after you process enough dead bodies from hospital to morgue, you should at least bump into one. Nope, no ghosts. No after-life, no reincarnation, no heaven, no hell, no limbo, nada. If you disagree, just wait until you die and you'll find out.

But just because you haven't seen a ghost, what about many who have, including credible people? Why do you think that just because you haven't seen one, that no one has?

I'll bet you've again not done any research in this field. You've just made up your mind and that's it. Why? Why can't you humble yourself and look at the evidence on both sides? Why aren't you interested in research? Why are you so closed minded and subjective? Don't you realize that MAYBE you could be wrong and are overlooking something?

Should I go by your logic and say that since I haven't been to France, then France doesn't exist, until I see it?

How do you explain these ghost stories from Britain?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x22cmuA2Y4s

And how do you explain how the doorknob in my room turned and snapped back by itself, that I wrote about before?

[Winston]

Momopi,
How do you explain this police chief who was a total skeptic of reincarnation until events in his own life forced him into believing it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB_j-chZvR0

Why can't you think in terms of possibilities, rather than just denying everything outside your paradigm?

Remember that saying "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your world Horatio" or something like that?

[momopi]

France exists because if you want to see it, you can buy a ticket, fly there and set your foot in Paris.

If ghosts exist somewhere, then you should be able to go to the ghost at any time (or specific time of the day, week, month, or year) to say hello. This is the basic test of reproducibility. If you know of a place where I can go and guaranteed to observe a real ghost, do tell.

Anything else, is like a gypsy fortume teller's crystla ball. "it's getting foggy..."

I have to think that I'm not the only one who grew up watching Scooby Doo cartoons here. If anyone is too young to get the reference, you can probably download the original cartoon episodes off BT.

Remember that saying "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your world Horatio" or something like that?

Sure, if a tourist can pay the price of admission to Castle Kronborg and see the ghost of a long-dead Danish King, it'd be a real tourist attraction. Alas, the only ghosts are actors on stage.


I have no past life and remember nothing
I have no after-life and have no need for a headstone
When I die, plant a tree on my grave.

If something exists, ask "is it edible?"
If so, "does it taste good?"
If not, "is it useful?"

If it's not useful, then leave it alone. Maybe someone else will find a use for it.
If you have no use for the wood, then don't chop the tree down. Maybe someone else will enjoy its shade on a sunny day.
If no one wish to rest under the tree, then let the dogs use it.

[Winston]

France exists because if you want to see it, you can buy a ticket, fly there and set your foot in Paris.

If ghosts exist somewhere, then you should be able to go to the ghost at any time (or specific time of the day, week, month, or year) to say hello. This is the basic test of reproducibility. If you know of a place where I can go and guaranteed to observe a real ghost, do tell.

Anything else, is like a gypsy fortume teller's crystla ball. "it's getting foggy..."

I have to think that I'm not the only one who grew up watching Scooby Doo cartoons here. If anyone is too young to get the reference, you can probably download the original cartoon episodes off BT.

Remember that saying "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your world Horatio" or something like that?

Sure, if a tourist can pay the price of admission to Castle Kronborg and see the ghost of a long-dead Danish King, it'd be a real tourist attraction. Alas, the only ghosts are actors on stage.


I have no past life and remember nothing
I have no after-life and have no need for a headstone
When I die, plant a tree on my grave.

If something exists, ask "is it edible?"
If so, "does it taste good?"
If not, "is it useful?"

If it's not useful, then leave it alone. Maybe someone else will find a use for it.
If you have no use for the wood, then don't chop the tree down. Maybe someone else will enjoy its shade on a sunny day.
If no one wish to rest under the tree, then let the dogs use it.

You missed my point. I know I can fly to France. But UNTIL I do, should I assume that it doesn't exist merely cause I haven't been to it?

Likewise, you haven't seen a ghost, but others have. So how do you know that they are right and you are not wrong? Maybe the universe hasn't revealed such realities to you yet. Don't you think it's possible they could have experienced something real?

Why do you jump to conclusions so fast?

Well I know of some haunted places, but are you willing to spend the night in them?

Ghosts are not always reproducible. They are immaterial and out of our control. They aren't subject to labs.

But there are some mediums who contact them on a regular basis and are able to get specific facts and details that they couldn't have gotten from guessing. George Anderson is one example.

Have you watched them or heard about them?

God could take the souls away, or the ghosts might not be able to contact us, or some are not attuned to it, or there may be rules where they are at, or they may have gone into the light or maybe they reincarnated. We don't know.

Did you see those videos I linked? How do you explain those amazing cases?

[momopi]

Well I know of some haunted places, but are you willing to spend the night in them?
Ghosts are not always reproducible. They are immaterial and out of our control. They aren't subject to labs.

If you know of a place where I'm guarenteed to observe or interact with a ghost, I'd be happy to visit. If not, then I may consider it if you pay for the airfare.

When I used to work at Fairhaven I'd stay after work and play dungeons and dragons (the pen and pencil version with minatures and dice) with a few coworkers, including the guy who was supposed to be patrolling the grounds. Working at the morgue is freaky for the first few days, after that you just don't care. After a month, you turn into a gawker when bodies are exhumed for investigations.

They say that Menicus's mother moved 3 times to give her son a better environment, the first time they lived next to a cemetary. I can understand her perfectly (her son was imitating paid mourners in funeral processions for fun). Ever notice my apathy with death? If you ever need someone to teach your kid about death, I'd suggest Mr. Rogers Neighborhood episode 1101, "Death of a Goldfish" (1970).

And if ghosts do exist, I think at least 1 should've been interviewed by NBC news by now. Fuzzy crystal balls are like sasquatch and yeti's. If bigfoot existed, at least one should've been shot, stuffed, and put on display by now.

God could take the souls away, or the ghosts might not be able to contact us, or some are not attuned to it, or there may be rules where they are at, or they may have gone into the light or maybe they reincarnated. We don't know.

There is no "light" or "light at the end of the tunnel". When you die, your biological functions cease, and you're dead. That's it. Pallor mortis -> livor mortis -> algor mortis -> rigor mortis.

Again, if you don't believe me, simply wait until you die, and you'll find out. The truth awaits all of us.

You could classify intelligence, consciousness, sentience, vitalism, etc. as being more than biological or biochemical, but they only exist when you're alive. When you die, adios.

[Winston]

Why it is important to go to bed early.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke5Io-oBE44

[Winston]

Momopi,
What about all the cases and evidence I showed you in the previous posts? Do you just deny them? How do you explain them?

They are very suggestive of life after death.

Why can't you just say MAYBE?

So you don't believe that any metaphysical dimensions exist at all, even the ones that quantum physics says may exist in string theory?

Do you agree that there are some things we can't see?

Check out this site: http://www.victorzammit.com

I once invited Dr. Melvin Morse to visit a paranormal group in Washington. He studied and wrote a book about child NDE's. He said that something does survive death but it's not the kind of consciousness or soul that you think of in terms of something being transferred. It's not the same as waking consciousness.

Many mystics and enlightened ones say that EVERYTHING in the universe is consciousness, and that nothing is not consciousness. If that's true, then your whole paradigm changes.

Do you understand that some people may know more than you do?

And that there are many stories you can't explain?

Google "Pam Reynolds" and try to explain her case. It's compelling and doctors are baffled by it.

[momopi]

Google "Pam Reynolds" and try to explain her case. It's compelling and doctors are baffled by it.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... s.html#pam
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html


Articles on Pure Mortalism -- death as a complete, permanent annihilation of the person, with no life after death:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... vival.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... ality.html


If you really want life after death, you might want to look into cryonics.

"Metaphysics" is the philosophy of Aristotle and has nothing to do with quantum physics. Within Aristotle's work you'll find the law of non-contradiction, which answers your query on "why not maybe". There is no such thing as "para-normal", everything has a scientific explanation. Magic exists in World of Warcraft, but not real life. In WoW, when your character dies, you can resurrect him/her. In real life, when you die, that's it, game over.

It's amazing what kind of crap people believe in. But then this is why charlatans and MLM's make money. Guess they know how to bullshit better than me.

[Winston]

Google "Pam Reynolds" and try to explain her case. It's compelling and doctors are baffled by it.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... s.html#pam
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html


Articles on Pure Mortalism -- death as a complete, permanent annihilation of the person, with no life after death:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... vival.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... ality.html


If you really want life after death, you might want to look into cryonics.

"Metaphysics" is the philosophy of Aristotle and has nothing to do with quantum physics. Within Aristotle's work you'll find the law of non-contradiction, which answers your query on "why not maybe". There is no such thing as "para-normal", everything has a scientific explanation. Magic exists in World of Warcraft, but not real life. In WoW, when your character dies, you can resurrect him/her. In real life, when you die, that's it, game over.

It's amazing what kind of crap people believe in. But then this is why charlatans and MLM's make money. Guess they know how to bullshit better than me.

You didn't answer my question like an objective truth seeker. You just ignored and denied. That's not scientific.

A lot of data doesn't fit into your hypothesis. So what do you do? You deny it.

Infidels is an Atheist site. Not an objective source.

Those skeptics lie and deny, like you do, when they can't explain away cases like Pam Reynolds.

The scientific case for ESP and anecdotal case is strong and considered proof by many.

Not everything has a scientific explanation. Want to bet on that? I know far more about this subject than you do, and my knowledge doesn't come from google either

Why can't you humble yourself and open up your mind to new data? Why are you so closed? Aren't you being typical Asian when you do that? I thought you were progressive?

Anyway, this is a huge subject and there's no point in posting info and links if you're just going to deny it and ignore it.

I'm going to split this thread into another topic, since the afterlife issue is off the topic of this thread.

[globetrotter]

"There is no "light" or "light at the end of the tunnel". When you die, your biological functions cease, and you're dead. That's it. Pallor mortis -> livor mortis -> algor mortis -> rigor mortis. "

Yeah, I used to believe this too.

1) One night in 1987 I had a super vivid dream. A great-aunt came to me, we had a talk about life, she wanted to know if I was ok. Never dreamt of her before, never since. That was a Thursday. Sunday I call my mom, turns up this aunt had died.

On Thursday night. In my same time zone.

I stand to live 100 years, 36600 days. Out of 36600 days, I have a dream of her on the ONE night she dies?

That is not statistically probable.

2) I had a heart attack 6 years ago. Blacked out, nearly died, messed up my brain and memory for years. During this event there was me at the center of a solar system-sized black space, and total silence and nothingness around me. I was not afraid, in fact I had no emotional reaction at all. Just me, a very small entity, at the center of the universe. As Ayn Rand said in her interview with Mike Wallace, when you die, YOU do not go away, it is the rest of the world that goes away.

If you want me to prove this to you in a repeatable sense I ask you the following:

Do you love your mother? If so prove it to me in a repeatable sense.

[Winston]

"There is no "light" or "light at the end of the tunnel". When you die, your biological functions cease, and you're dead. That's it. Pallor mortis -> livor mortis -> algor mortis -> rigor mortis. "

Yeah, I used to believe this too.

1) One night in 1987 I had a super vivid dream. A great-aunt came to me, we had a talk about life, she wanted to know if I was ok. Never dreamt of her before, never since. That was a Thursday. Sunday I call my mom, turns up this aunt had died.

On Thursday night. In my same time zone.

I stand to live 100 years, 36600 days. Out of 36600 days, I have a dream of her on the ONE night she dies?

That is not statistically probable.

2) I had a heart attack 6 years ago. Blacked out, nearly died, messed up my brain and memory for years. During this event there was me at the center of a solar system-sized black space, and total silence and nothingness around me. I was not afraid, in fact I had no emotional reaction at all. Just me, a very small entity, at the center of the universe. As Ayn Rand said in her interview with Mike Wallace, when you die, YOU do not go away, it is the rest of the world that goes away.

If you want me to prove this to you in a repeatable sense I ask you the following:

Do you love your mother? If so prove it to me in a repeatable sense.

Your experiences are very common. But only a small number of them get published. There are books filled with them though. They do suggest some sort of afterlife, but not necessarily with the same type of consciousness as we have here.

The problem with some closed minded types though, is that they will deny all this and write it off as coincidence, because it doesn't fit into their paradigm. They simply aren't open to "possibilities" for some reason. So they refuse to look at stories like yours and anything that doesn't fit into their view. Closed mindedness is more of an emotional thing than a logical one.

[momopi]

You didn't answer my question like an objective truth seeker. You just ignored and denied. That's not scientific.

A lot of data doesn't fit into your hypothesis. So what do you do? You deny it.

Infidels is an Atheist site. Not an objective source.

Those skeptics lie and deny, like you do, when they can't explain away cases like Pam Reynolds.

The scientific case for ESP and anecdotal case is strong and considered proof by many.

Not everything has a scientific explanation. Want to bet on that? I know far more about this subject than you do, and my knowledge doesn't come from google either

Why can't you humble yourself and open up your mind to new data? Why are you so closed? Aren't you being typical Asian when you do that? I thought you were progressive?

Anyway, this is a huge subject and there's no point in posting info and links if you're just going to deny it and ignore it.

I'm going to split this thread into another topic, since the afterlife issue is off the topic of this thread.

If you want people to give you their time and answer your questions, you must give them an incentive to do so. The starting point is that what's important to you is not important to others. If it was, then you don't need any effort as they're already on the bandwagon. Typically there are 2 methods of getting people on to your bandwagon, the first is negative reinforcement, typically in the form of FUD (Fear-Uncertainty-Doubt), which works well with people with low self-esteem. Examples: "what if this happened to you?!" "How can you be sure?" and so on.

The second method is positive reinforcement, such as making your bandwagon appear attractive, or simply pay or bribe someone to hop on. For example, "navy fighter pilot supports 9/11 truth movement" banks on the positive value of the navy fighter pilot's status. However, it's a weak one because it's just another faceless pilot out of many. If it was Chuck Yeager, it'd be a different story. Another example, when you quoted Hamlet to suggest that there are more things in Heaven and Earth. It's better than "a navy pilot" but flunked in one critical area: it's a Shakespeare play and the characters are fictional, plus the ghost is played by an actor on stage. A better one, targeted specifically to people who believe in hard science, would be to quote Einstein:



"I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws." -- Albert Einstein


Albert Einstein would be far more attractive on the bandwagon. When you want people to jump on, you need to persuade the target audience with the correct incentives/appeals, not debating the subject to reinforce your own believes. The target audience is not yourself. Otherwise, people will think it's a waste of time. Only people in positions of authority can demand people to answer to their inquiries.

If someone asked me "why won't you believe in the afterlife?! Look at all these evidence!" I'd think they're nuts. But if the person asked "so if there is an after-life and you're somehow able to interact with the living after death, how would this affect the management of family trust funds? Can an undead spirit legally issue financial instructions?" Now that would an interesting topic for me.


I don't believe in such things as after-life. I have no supernatural soul and the mind is not separate from the brain. I believe that with advances in science, we will someday get a firm scientific answer to NDE's. Is it hallucination, brain chemicals, or ?? Don't worry, medical science will have an answer, very possibly within our lifetime. Eat well and exercise so you can live long and read about it in the medical journals later.

You want me to have an open mind? OK -- up until very recently, I have never been to a food court without a restroom nearby. Such design would be too dumb. But as of this week I've actually been to a food court without a restroom in close proximity -- the Atlanta airport. You have to walk a long distance to take a leak. Very dumb, but now I can no longer say that I have never seen a food court without a restroom nearby.

If ghosts do exist, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. When you see one, please inform him/her of my services (I will pay you a referral fee if the business relationship is profitable). I've been told that they want attention, and I have access to very good publicists who can get them a lot of attention, issue press releases, and possibly even go on TV. Why spend all that undead energy just to speak to one person via dream-trance (it's terribly inefficient) when you can go on TV and announce your passing to everyone? Made a mistake on your written will? No problem, we'll arrange for a lawyer to work with you on correcting it!

Here's a couple examples from Fox News:
http://www.anaheimwhitehouse.com/movies/fox_news.mpg
http://www.anaheimwhitehouse.com/movies ... tation.mpg

Made possible by a good publicist. I did the e-publishing for that book BTW.


Now, before someone comes back with "ghosts don't work that way! they work in mysterious ways!" Uh, yeah, like the elf running in my watch? That's a foggy crystal ball on the same level as big foot. In hospitals people go code blue all the time. If there is such thing as ghosts that pops out of dead people, then we should be able to observe at least one from time to time. I've seen a lot of dead bodies at the morgue and have yet to observe one ghost. But I suppose if you're a ghost, you wouldn't want to hang out in a morgue either, unless if you're into AD&D. It'd have been fun if a ghost decided to join our pen and paper RPG game at night. Hmf, if a ghost can turn a doorknob, then it should be able to roll a d20 dice right?





What I think of people advocating "spirits" popping out of bodies:





For those who don't understand the above reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s ... s_group%29

If you want me to prove this to you in a repeatable sense I ask you the following:
Do you love your mother? If so prove it to me in a repeatable sense.

Me encanta mi mamma!

[Winston]

Momopi,
You're not taking any discussions seriously. Instead, you're acting like a smart aleck. Nor are you answering any questions.

I am not trying to sell you something with positive or negative reinforcement. The school does that. Advertisers do that. The media does that.

I'm just asking you questions and you are failing to answer them.

I asked you what you make of the evidence that does not fit into your hypothesis or that suggest an afterlife or reincarnation?

You didn't answer that but from your reaction, it's implied that you think it's all hogwash.

And FYI, Einstein does not support your view that there is no afterlife. He said it was a mystery and appreciated it as a mystery. So why did you bring him up? At least Einstein was humble about it. He didn't act all knowing like you did.

I can quote from him or other great people. Would that convince you? I doubt it. If I quoted a great person you admired who said he believed in God or an afterlife, would that change your mind? I doubt it.

So why are you bringing this up?

Again, you are obfuscating and using red herrings again. Very pointless.

Let's start with this:

Explain to me the case of Pam Reynolds who had an NDE during a flat heart and brainline which confounded her doctors. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqDB-k

Just answer the question. No lame humor or obfuscation please.

Why are you so sure that you know all the answers? What makes you MORE credible than anyone else out there on this issue?