When a Woman Meets a MGTOW......

[Contrarian Expatriate]

MGTOW: Men who do not pursue marital or co-parenting relationships with women.

I had to make some slight adjustments to your input because there are asexual men, bisexual men, and even certain gay men are gravitating to MGTOW. GGTOW is now a thing but it reflects a move away from the LGBT movement more than a move for personal freedom. Some gay men often resent GLBT being abruptly changed to LGBT and they also are recognizing the dictatorship of gynocentrism in the West now.

Also, the core of MGTOW is to maintain freedom by preventing women from getting the legal hooks of the state embedded into oneself. Marriage and/or getting women pregnant are the two major ways women and the state accomplish that.

Finally, most MGTOW (with the exception of MGTOW Monks) continue to date women and pursue romantic relationships with them so that factor is
nearly irrelevant. Think if MGTOW as doing what you can to preserve your personal sovereignty from being curtailed by women and the state.

So what does a MGTOW do beyond that? Whatever the heck he wants with the middle finger to those who have a problem with him enjoying his life on HIS terms.

[Zambales]

Let's face it, some men are designed to be single. Predominantly Incels and Chads. It's because they're too self-absorbed and can't properly understand what a relationship entails - and also having a habit of not being able to understand themselves. To be fair though, there are women too who fall into this category so it's just not a male thing.

For Chad, the worst mistake he can make is to get married. This is because the quality female with a fair degree of intelligence can smell him a mile off and consider him to be of the sleazy persuasion because his brains are forever alternating between his head and his pants. She might however have a casual relationship with a Chad before she settles down but as far as marriage is concerned she isn't interested due to the way he acts. In other words, he has the hallmarks of an unfaithful partner.

This leaves Chad with a smaller pool to choose from with far less quality. Dimwits and materialistic manipulators are the ones usually available for selection but Chad's choice from the menu tends unknowingly to be the latter as they're more capable of enticing him in with mating calls such as "I like a man with confidence". Unfortunately for him, this could translate into "I just want a sucker". Chad may have game but he's not on her level when it comes to being devious. She's not the type to duly worry about his sexual exploits with other women either should he have the urge to because she has other more important issues to attend to like a fraudulent marriage in the making and the fattening up of the turkey for the feast - eventual divorce rape.

As for incels, unless they can point the compass inwards rather than outwards and learn to improve themselves, stay realistic and remain positive, there's not a great deal anyone can do to help them.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

Let's face it, some men are designed to be single. Predominantly Incels and Chads.

You have an incredibly narrow view of those who are better off remaining unmarried. What about Volcels, MGTOWs, Catholic Priests, non-Chad players who like variety, men who don't want children, men who don't want to live with women, etc. Incels and Chads are but two extreme ends of the continuum. What about the millions of people in the middle of those extremes?

If you think it is mostly Incels and Chads, than you are extremely poorly informed. Then again, I see you as one of the legion of arrogant married types whose been deluded into thinking that he's living the universal "right way." Newsflash: You're not...

[Zambales]

Let's face it, some men are designed to be single. Predominantly Incels and Chads.

You have an incredibly narrow view of those who are better off remaining unmarried. What about Volcels, MGTOWs, Catholic Priests, non-Chad players who like variety, men who don't want children, men who don't want to live with women, etc. Incels and Chads are but two extreme ends of the continuum. What about the millions of people in the middle of those extremes?

If you think it is mostly Incels and Chads, than you are extremely poorly informed. Then again, I see you as one of the legion of arrogant married types whose been deluded into thinking that he's living the universal "right way." Newsflash: You're not...

You've totally misinterpreted. I'm not referring to the ones who CHOOSE to be single. Anyway, I'm not married, so you got that wrong as well.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

Let's face it, some men are designed to be single. Predominantly Incels and Chads.

You have an incredibly narrow view of those who are better off remaining unmarried. What about Volcels, MGTOWs, Catholic Priests, non-Chad players who like variety, men who don't want children, men who don't want to live with women, etc. Incels and Chads are but two extreme ends of the continuum. What about the millions of people in the middle of those extremes?

If you think it is mostly Incels and Chads, than you are extremely poorly informed. Then again, I see you as one of the legion of arrogant married types whose been deluded into thinking that he's living the universal "right way." Newsflash: You're not...

You've totally misinterpreted. I'm not referring to the ones who CHOOSE to be single. Anyway, I'm not married, so you got that wrong as well.

Nice try, but bull crap. Since when do Chads not CHOOSE to be unmarried? They have the most choice either way.

Also, I don't know if you're married or not. I simply pointed out that you are the TYPE of which is arrogant and married while thinking he is has the key to the universal code of fulfilment. Your actual marital status is not the issue, your harmfully conventional mindset is the issue.

[flowerthief00]

MGTOW: Men who do not pursue marital or co-parenting relationships with women.

I had to make some slight adjustments to your input because there are asexual men, bisexual men, and even certain gay men are gravitating to MGTOW. GGTOW is now a thing but it reflects a move away from the LGBT movement more than a move for personal freedom. Some gay men often resent GLBT being abruptly changed to LGBT and they also are recognizing the dictatorship of gynocentrism in the West now.

Point taken about the LGBT.

By your adjusted definition several groups are effectively MGTOW by default, including PUA and Catholic priests. Do they know they are MGTOW? Someone should tell them.

Red-pilled "Incels" who just want a date are still there too, but that term also needs to be fixed, really.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

By your adjusted definition several groups are effectively MGTOW by default, including PUA and Catholic priests. Do they know they are MGTOW? Someone should tell them.

Catholic priests are required to be Volcels; there is nothing MGTOW about them because they are not refraining from that to protect themselves from female and state domination. In fact, they are commanded by faith to submit to state authority (The Vatican) which is anathema to MGTOW.

PUA run the gamut because many of them are very blue pill (Coach Corey Wayne), some are very red pill (Alpha Male Strategies), and some are actually MGTOW for life (Matt Cross). Matt Cross is one of the best PUA's out there (although he now is more of a masculinity coach) and he lives a very high end MGTOW life.

Red-pilled "Incels" who just want a date are still there too, but that term also needs to be fixed, really.

Very few people are truly incel. That term just gets thrown around a lot by people who no little about what that truly means. Anyone can screw an ugly or desparate female but most of what you consider incels are men undeveloped in value and they expect to screw models and 9's and 10's when they are 2's and 3's. True incels are mentally, psychologically or physically unable to have sex even though they want it (@@Cornfed comes to mind as one example of all three.) Those who are too ill, too disabled, or too injured can be incels because anyone else could pay a financially needy person to have sex on demand.

The nerdy HS Senior who can't get a hot girl to sleep with him is not an incel, he has not reached a high level of SMV for his goal or he has set his sexual sights too high.

[Zambales]

Let's face it, some men are designed to be single. Predominantly Incels and Chads.

You have an incredibly narrow view of those who are better off remaining unmarried. What about Volcels, MGTOWs, Catholic Priests, non-Chad players who like variety, men who don't want children, men who don't want to live with women, etc. Incels and Chads are but two extreme ends of the continuum. What about the millions of people in the middle of those extremes?

If you think it is mostly Incels and Chads, than you are extremely poorly informed. Then again, I see you as one of the legion of arrogant married types whose been deluded into thinking that he's living the universal "right way." Newsflash: You're not...

You've totally misinterpreted. I'm not referring to the ones who CHOOSE to be single. Anyway, I'm not married, so you got that wrong as well.

Nice try, but bull crap. Since when do Chads not CHOOSE to be unmarried? They have the most choice either way.

Also, I don't know if you're married or not. I simply pointed out that you are the TYPE of which is arrogant and married while thinking he is has the key to the universal code of fulfilment. Your actual marital status is not the issue, your harmfully conventional mindset is the issue.

What universal code of fulfilment? I’ve never mentioned anything of the sort - unlike you, with your "Girlfriend Allowance" creation . What were you saying about arrogance?

And for your information I’m the polar opposite to “conventional” and that’s because I’m my own person and do things my own way based on my own experiences. Following the crowd and listening to other people’s “advice” can send one hurtling down the wrong path. Another wayward assumption on your behalf.

[E Irizarry R&B Singer]

CE is unusual about labeling himself as MGTOW. I only use that label in forums like this one, where we all know what it means so it functions as shorthand. I would never call myself MGTOW in real life, anymore than I would call myself loner, amoral, selfish, impolite and various other not so flattering labels. It's just idiotic to go around labelling yourself in an unflattering way, though of course I expect other people to label me in unflattering ways, not that I much care.

There have always been men who act like MGTOWs, under different names. Confirmed bachelors. Loners. Most homeless men are effectively MGTOW. Much of the military has always been MGTOW, also expat contact workers, such as oil related workers stationed in Dubai, etc. Many of these unmarried men use whores, some date regular girlfriends, some just go without.

True.... I was living MGTOW long before the concept came into being. The term just happened to encapsulate everything I stood for better than any other term so it was a validation of sorts. But you're right, I don't go around in every day life using the term because most people would not understand it.

I would say I was a lot like this little boy who is essentially MGTOW though he likely never heard of the term:

We need to adopt this kid before an AW vampiress/succubus gets a hold of him.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

We need to adopt this kid before an AW vampiress/succubus gets a hold of him.

I'd say the kid is smarter than most simps and married cucks. Probably has a great father teaching him instead of lying to him like most fathers.

[flowerthief00]

That video clip of the little boy is the most hopeful thing I've seen on Youtube in months.
But getting down to business....

Catholic priests are required to be Volcels; there is nothing MGTOW about them because they are not refraining from that to protect themselves from female and state domination. In fact, they are commanded by faith to submit to state authority (The Vatican) which is anathema to MGTOW.

MGTOW: Men who do not pursue marital or co-parenting relationships with women.

There is nothing in our definition above that requires a MGTOW to have as his motivation the desire to protect himself from female and state domination.

Would you like to amend it to require specific motivation? If we were to do that, yes, we can keep the Catholic priests and other groups out, but I think we will discover other problems....

PUA run the gamut because many of them are very blue pill (Coach Corey Wayne), some are very red pill (Alpha Male Strategies), and some are actually MGTOW for life (Matt Cross). Matt Cross is one of the best PUA's out there (although he now is more of a masculinity coach) and he lives a very high end MGTOW life.

If they are not pursuing marriage or co-parenting relationships then they are MGTOW by the above definition. Since the marriage/co-parenting lifestyle clashes *real hard* with the PUA lifestyle is it that bad an assumption to make that most of them are?

Again, adding a clause about motivation to the definition might help....

Very few people are truly incel. That term just gets thrown around a lot by people who no little about what that truly means. Anyone can screw an ugly or desparate female but most of what you consider incels are men undeveloped in value and they expect to screw models and 9's and 10's when they are 2's and 3's. True incels are mentally, psychologically or physically unable to have sex even though they want it (@@Cornfed comes to mind as one example of all three.) Those who are too ill, too disabled, or too injured can be incels because anyone else could pay a financially needy person to have sex on demand.

The nerdy HS Senior who can't get a hot girl to sleep with him is not an incel, he has not reached a high level of SMV for his goal or he has set his sexual sights too high.

I completely agree that very few people are truly incel. There is an issue with how a comparatively larger (and I, suspect, fast-growing) group of men identify with what is, taken literally, an extremely exclusive label. After all, it's not just 2's and 3's unable to land 9's and 10'. 6's and 7's can't land 9's and 10's. Arguably, 6's and 7's can't land 6's and 7's any more, the way the sexual marketplace is headed.

What is the word we should use to refer to this larger group of men who are, for whatever reasons that could be both voluntary and involuntary, sexually/romantically frustrated? Simply "Cel"?

Whatever we call them, I think many of them could be considered MGTOW by the above definition. If you're not even getting that Tinder match then you're probably not thinking too much about marriage or co-parenting.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

There is nothing in our definition above that requires a MGTOW to have as his motivation the desire to protect himself from female and state domination.

Would you like to amend it to require specific motivation? If we were to do that, yes, we can keep the Catholic priests and other groups out, but I think we will discover other problems....

Not at all because that single line is only a very basic summary of MGTOW, not an exhaustive definition. Just a few lines below it I described the core intention of MGTOW, but anyone above the level of moron would know that Catholic priests are not MGTOW anymore than permanently comatose single men are MGTOW. At a certain point, common sense must take over. MGTOW is not for the type of men who would consider for a second that Catholic Priests are MGTOW. If we have other religious clerics to consider, most Catholic Priests WOULD pursue marriage and children if they were permitted to do so but the choice is not theirs to make.

Now a Protestant Pastor COULD be MGTOW (The YouTuber MGTOW Preacher comes to mind), because Protestant clerics have the choice to pursue women and co-parenting with women.

If they are not pursuing marriage or co-parenting relationships then they are MGTOW by the above definition. Since the marriage/co-parenting lifestyle clashes *real hard* with the PUA lifestyle is it that bad an assumption to make that most of them are?

Again, there are PUA's who are now married and with children. One of the most famous PUA's, Neil Strauss, is one of them. So PUA does not mean MGTOW by any stretch. As a matter of fact, many PUA's hate MGTOW because less guys purchase PUA classes, materials, and consultations specifically because of MGTOW. By the way, it was a manosphere scandal when Strauss married. MGTOW got the last laugh because he got divorce raped as we predicted.

What is the word we should use to refer to this larger group of men who are, for whatever reasons that could be both voluntary and involuntary, sexually/romantically frustrated? Simply "Cel"?

I think that refers to most younger men who go thru that phase. Most young men who are not gifted with top 10% looks, have to BECOME something before they start snatching girls successfully. The label is not really important. They are not yet developed men and they have not yet become attractive enough to women. I was a late bloomer myself, but I more than made up for it after I rose to the top of the food chain (even more so when I moved overseas).

The stage of a man's sexual life changes according to his circumstances. One light bulb moment for me was law school when I noticed that smoking hot white girls were asking my classmates to introduce them to me and I was quite popular with female classmates from wealthy and privileged families all of the sudden. That taught me that a man's circumstances and status can change EVERYTHING. So labeling men according to their sexual successes are not so useful in my view since it is so temporary according to circumstances.

[Man With a Plan]

This is stupid. Every man is mgtow. Only a fool would need to say he's "going his own way" when men are already wired to do so. Sometimes, his "own way" includes marriage. For a man such as myself, marriage is NOT in my future, nor is any long-term serious relationship -- but I'm not mgtow. None of you can even define what mgtow is so . . . that means everyone and no one is mgtow.

[Zambales]

The name isn't precise enough. Should be called Men Against Feminism. Instead it's more like Men Getting Confused.

[flowerthief00]

Not at all because that single line is only a very basic summary of MGTOW, not an exhaustive definition. Just a few lines below it I described the core intention of MGTOW, but anyone above the level of moron would know that Catholic priests are not MGTOW anymore than permanently comatose single men are MGTOW. At a certain point, common sense must take over. MGTOW is not for the type of men who would consider for a second that Catholic Priests are MGTOW. If we have other religious clerics to consider, most Catholic Priests WOULD pursue marriage and children if they were permitted to do so but the choice is not theirs to make.

Because I have read what else you wrote I know more or less what you mean when you say MGTOW. But for someone reading the one-line definition for the first time knowing nothing else, they might justifiably think that a Catholic priest fits it. I disagree that they'd have to be a moron to. Look at all the confusion about what this word means. This is not about who MGTOW is for. This is about having precise terminology to serve everyone whether they care to be MGTOW or not.

And Catholic priests do have a choice in becoming a Catholic priest at all. Similarly, a Mormon missionary made a choice whether to become a Mormon missionary. (Not only does a Mormon missionary not date, he's not allowed to even be in the same room alone with a woman per the mission rules he signed onto) So wouldn't we have to say that all single male Mormon missionaries are MGTOW for the duration of their 2-year missions, despite the fact that avoidance of female or state domination has nothing at all whatsoever to do with their decision to lead that lifestyle, and most end up marrying shortly after they return from it.

Again, there are PUA's who are now married and with children. One of the most famous PUA's, Neil Strauss, is one of them. So PUA does not mean MGTOW by any stretch. As a matter of fact, many PUA's hate MGTOW because less guys purchase PUA classes, materials, and consultations specifically because of MGTOW. By the way, it was a manosphere scandal when Strauss married. MGTOW got the last laugh because he got divorce raped as we predicted.

But how many active PUA are married with children? I'd guess very few. By the time they have gotten married they have typically given up the PUA lifestyle. Strauss did too. In some ways he became a critic of PUA. (while still playing the dance of reaping money from his former association with it)