Dating In The West

[NorthAmericanguy]

Has anybody ever read this!? This reader submitted article by far summarizes everything that is wrong with dating in the west.







"I read the submissions of Wanderlust and Billy Bunter with a lot of interest. They make many valid points, but the more I thought about them the more I felt they must live in a different world than I do. I have been married four times; twice to “regularâ€￾ American women, once to a Latin American immigrant that had lived in the US for 25 years before we married, and have been married for the past two years to a Filipina that I met and dated in the Philippines. The first marriage was a disaster, and the divorce was a fiscal rape. The second marriage was great, but ended when my wife died very young, leaving me with four children at home; the youngest was 3. The third marriage was entered into in absolute disgust with the post 40 years old dating scene in the US, and was doomed from the start. She was a deeply damaged person; for which I blame her mother who was a harsh, unloving, bitter, psycho bitch if there ever was one. The current marriage has all the signs of success that I recognize from my second marriage. A lot of the success can be laid at the feet of my wife’s mother. She is a wonderful woman, who raised a loving daughter, and who gives good advice and counsel. It is an old adage, but still as true as ever; if you want a good wife, take a long hard look at her mother, because that is what she will become. I state all of this only to establish my credentials on the subject at hand. Not every man finding a wife in Asia is a “loserâ€￾ that can not find a woman in his own culture, which seems to be the underlying premise of both these authors. There are many good and valid reasons for men to give up on western women, other than being just too lazy to put in the effort. The focus seems to be, “If you put in the effort you can get laid by a western woman.â€￾ I reply, “Why would you want to?â€￾

It is hard to decide where to start in describing what dating has become in the US. It is OK at a young age, but as the years go by, the selection becomes very skewed towards damaged goods, and the vitriol you can expect as a man becomes too harsh to adequately describe. There are many beautiful and truly nice women in the west (USA), but they married early, and stayed married. Their husbands know they have a gem, and hold on to them. So what we are left with after about age 30 are the bitter and nasty survivors of the gender wars. And it is a war. For those who have not lived and worked in the USA in the past 10 to 20 years it is impossible to transmit how hostile the work place, and society as a whole, has become to men. I will try to focus this on only the dating scene, but the overall social upheaval has impacted dating by giving women the belief that they not only can have everything, but that it is there absolute right to have everything. And, if they don’t have everything, then it is some man’s fault.

I cringe every time I watch this one cosmetics advertisement that has the tag line of; “Because we are worth it.â€￾ It summarizes the whole attitude of women in the US; we deserve everything because we are worth it. They do not have to act any particular way, perform any socially useful function, achieve any goal, or do anything at all to be “worth itâ€￾; just being a woman is enough. To accept less than everything is admitting that you are not worth it, and therefore less of a woman than some other that is getting something you are not. An example of this attitude by women is a woman that wrote a book recently that suggested perhaps women have got too demanding, and should stop looking for Mr. Right, and look for Mr. Good Enough instead. She wrote this from the perspective of being a never married woman in her 40’s, who had a child by in-vitro fertilization while she was in her 30’s, and has raised it on her own. On reflection, she has decided that there may have been many men that would have made her life a lot better, but who she rejected because they weren’t everything she was looking for. She suggested that maybe someone that meets 80% of what you want might be a good choice for a life partner. She described in a recent interview the large amount of hate mail she has received from women. The gist of the mail is that these women feel that any man that meets less than 100% of their desires is a “loserâ€￾; and settling for a loser is unacceptable. She added that the mail she gets from men state that any woman they found that met 80% of what they were looking for would be considered a catch. The probability of you being judged a loser by these women, in the 20 seconds as you approach them, is nearly 100%, unless you are Tiger Woods or George Clooney. And do not fool yourself that you can make up for surface imperfections (boy do I have those) with intelligence, wit, or charm, because western women are deciding if you are a loser before you even open your mouth. If she does not judge you a loser out of hand, she can always change her mind and label you a loser after you open your mouth too. And what is it that puts them in a position to judge? They have a vagina. They treat this most common of commodities as if it were diamonds. And they are like diamonds in that they are actually not rare, and only valuable because the supply is artificially limited (by DeBeers for diamonds, and by the sisterhood for vaginas).

I have 6 sisters. I have had the opportunity to observe their friends over many years. Most of them were fairly attractive and relatively nice people, when they were young. As they have grown older, and have used and discarded a number of men, they have become totally unpleasant, and I want nothing to do with them. One of their number, now in her 50’s like me, recently told me that she was mildly interested in finding a man, but would accept nothing less than her ideal. He had to have all his hair, lots of money, no kids at home, an athletic build (i.e. thin), and be willing to cater to all her needs, including supporting her completely so she could stop working. This is from a grey haired, wrinkled, fat, obnoxious bitch. Western women’s expectations, and estimations of their own worth, are totally delusional.

OK, we men have always had to deal with rejection. Dating, and approaching women, has always been a numbers game, and we should have thick skins. But what has changed over my lifetime is the viciousness with which US women deal out this rejection. The anger and potential for violence, just for the affront of approaching a woman and asking her to dance, is quite astounding. It usually comes with the attitude of, “How dare you insult me by suggesting that you are in any way worthy of me.â€￾ And they do feel insulted if you are too much older than them, or not as well dressed, or not as attractive as they feel they are. I had the most trouble with the age thing. If you are a variable number of years older than a woman (how many years depends solely on the woman’s opinion; which you can never know in advance), and approach her, you are asking for a violent confrontation. I am a terrible judge of women’s ages. My mother taught me that a woman’s age was no man’s business, and to ignore it. Nowadays, you do so at your peril. An insulting comment is to be expected, with a slap on the face, or a loud verbal assault, a strong possibility. Following her slapping you, you can expect to be thrown out of the place for offending a woman. If you are lucky, the police will not be called to throw you in jail.

So you say, maybe you should lower your aim and approach women that are older, less attractive, and more overweight. After all, you are looking to get laid, and they may be a higher probability target. However, you have to deal with two things; the loser label and social proofing. No woman, no matter how old, fat, and ugly wants to be seen to accept a loser. And, if you are approaching a fat ugly woman, she knows you are a loser, or you would not be approaching her. (I am not kidding with this one, no matter how hard it may be for men to accept that it is the way women think.) So you are in a no win situation. You might as well get shot down in flames by a beautiful woman as by a bar hog. In fact your standing with other women will be higher if you are rejected by a beauty than if you are accepted by a female loser. This takes us to social proofing. Women are constantly checking their feelings and opinions with other women. (Men do not feel the need to validate their opinions or feelings. However, if I went insane once a month I might feel the need to validate my feelings too.) Women do not trust their own ability to decide if a man is attractive. They would rather trust another (high status) woman’s judgment, and thus are only interested in a man that is already with a beautiful woman; hence, the feast or famine phenomenon.

How does all of this relate to dating women in Asia? It is because in Asia, I believe, that women are still willing to admit that they want a man. In the west, girls grow up with Gloria Steinem’s immortal words, “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.â€￾ Once, in the US, women would indicate interest, and a man could safely approach them. No guarantee that they would like you after you approached them, but only a fool would approach a woman that had not indicated some interest. These days any woman indicating any interest in a man, or men at all, would immediately lose status with other women. And this form of face is the most important thing in a woman’s world; in the west as much as in Asia. What men think is of absolutely no importance to women. Accept this, and get over yourself. As a result of US women dropping their part of the game, we men in the US have no choice but to make nothing but cold calls. This does not make for an entertaining evening out at a social gathering place.

How is this different in Asia? Once upon a time (this starts like all fairy tales) I went to the Philippines on a dive trip (of course I did not avoid the ladies), and was amazed to find that I was being given the eye by women. I am not referring to the professional women looking for a customer, but regular women on the sidewalks, in malls, in restaurants, and just in general. And some of these women were quite young, and many were very attractive. The young ones would generally notice my notice of them, look me up and down, catch my eye, smile, and indicate they were not interested, but at least I was in the game. If you are a man in the US, and over 30, to most women, and to all women under 30, you are a walking ghost. You just do not exist in their world; unless they need something from you at the moment. I am amazed on a daily basis that they manage to avoid colliding with us older men on the sidewalks, since we are apparently invisible. In Asia it seems that women are still willing to do their share in the game. If they aren’t interested they can indicate that while retaining everyone’s face, and a good deal of humor. Everyone can have a good time, even if they don’t get laid. If they are interested, you know it, and can choose to pursue the opportunity or not. (I had not noticed this effect as much in the LOS as I did in the PI, so that may be why I shifted my flag to the Philippines, and eventually married a Filipina.) Also, Asian women tend to take you looking at them with admiration as a compliment, and not as an insult, as it is in the US. The usual attitude in the US is “how dare you look at meâ€￾; while she is wearing nothing but a tube top, leggings, various tattoos, and stripper high heels. In the US the PC crowd says homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, while a 40+ year old man finding a 20 to 30 year old woman attractive is a pervert.

Many of you will say that the Asian woman is just looking to get a meal ticket, and the girlfriend effect is just an illusion. Let me tell you brother, it is all an illusion everywhere. A few years ago, before I remarried, I was out with my baby sister (mid 40’s and divorced for the second time, but who am I to cast stones) and one of her friends at a restaurant, prior to going to a dance club. The friend was about 35 and recently divorced. Since I was outside her target age range, I did not exist, and was thoroughly ignored. This can be a great opportunity to obtain insights into the enemy’s tactics. This woman was angry at men, hated them, and was so bitter I feared for the safety of my manhood when she picked up a knife to cut her food (she resembled Lorena Bobbit a little too much). I am not exaggerating. Then two guys that fit her target profile sat down at the next table. It was like she threw a switch. Suddenly it was all smiles and sweetness. She flirted with these guys until we had to leave, and then the mask came off again. About a year later, at my sister’s birthday party, I ran into her again. Now she had her fiancé with her. He was already deep in the walk-one-step-behind-me-take-my-coat-get-me-a-drink-and-watch-my-purse mode. He was an obedient slave. She had not changed her attitude; she just had put up an illusion to trap her next intended victim, who she would then suck the life out of and discard. She would extract her vengeance one man at a time. And the amusing part is she will do all this and convince herself that she is the victim of yet another no good man.

So, are us western guys, of any age, losers because they choose to “give upâ€￾ on western women? Are we just too lazy, or have we been made too lazy by exposure to easy sex in SEA? I posit the answer is no to all of the above. Western women (based on US women) have decided they neither need us nor want us. They are willing to tolerate us, as long as we amuse them, then they will strip us of all we have, half of what we will earn in the future, take our children from us, and then go on to the next guy. They have become, in great measure, parasites. And the mainstream popular culture praises them for this behavior. A well known advice columnist always advises her female advisees, “Decide if you would be better off with him or without him, and if you are better off without him, dump him.â€￾ This might be fine if you each took your own stuff and went your separate ways. But the reality is the woman is better off only because she can take everything the guy has, and get all the future support from him she needs, while dumping him. They do this and think they are being strong INDEPENDENT women. And all her friends will say, “You go girl. You have to do what is best for you.â€￾ And do not think that avoiding marriage will save you. The lines between marriage and a man’s commitment to a woman have blurred a lot; you don’t have to put a ring on her finger to take a royal f**king by the courts. (Notice that women never have any legal commitments to any man, even their husbands, and are not held accountable by the courts for anything.) Why do we submit ourselves to this abuse?

Wanderlust makes the point that it is probably easier to get into the western woman’s pants than a “goodâ€￾ Asian woman’s; if you are willing to jump through the western woman’s hoops first. And that our perceptions of how hard it is to get in western women’s pants compared to the girls we meet in Thailand is skewed by our meeting only the P4P segment of Thai society. I agree with all of that wholeheartedly. It came as somewhat of a shock to me when I found that any dates with my 25 year old Filipina girlfriend would be strictly chaperoned at all times. She had warned me the first time we spoke that she would be a virgin on her wedding night. But, I ended up, after much patience, and investment of effort, with a woman that looks at marriage as for the rest of her life; divorce is against the law in the Philippines. And I got a wife that thinks she actually owes some responsibility to take care of her husband’s needs, not just her own. With a western woman you will get laid when she wants, how she wants, and for as long as she wants. Your wants or needs do not matter, and never will. So I reiterate the question, “Why would you want to go through the trouble of getting laid by a western woman when, in the long run, you are just going to get screwed?â€￾ Just say NO."


http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/ReadersS ... er5844.htm

[PeterAndrewNolan]

Standing ovation!!!

[davewe]

Good stuff but I have read a lot of postings that say that good women marry early and stay married. I am sure there are some but my experience is not that many. I have a few friends wi 30+ year marriages but those are definitely the exceptions.

[NorthAmericanguy]

Round 2: The Dating Market in the West versus in Thailand







"There have been a few submissions on here recently about dating in the West versus dating in Thailand. I'm just coming up to the end of a two week holiday in Bangkok and spent a month here earlier this year. Comparing my love life when I'm here to when I'm in Australia is like chalk and cheese. Sure, I get women in Australia, but dating there is a much more frustrating experience than here to say the least.

I've spent the past few days with a Thai girl I met in a nightclub last time I was here. She is so beautiful that people are constantly commenting on it, including Thai guys. We were at a Thai bar last night and one of the band members came over and told me he thought my girlfriend was hot. A German guy the night before told me he'd been to Thailand many times and had never seen a girl here as beautiful as her.

She's also very sweet and pretty intelligent. She's a little low on self-esteem and very shy.

In Australia, she'd be considered a prize girl, and I'd be proud to even know her. Here in Bangkok, she was ridiculously easy to meet. I was simply standing in a nightclub and her friend brought her up and introduced her to me. An hour later she was back in my hotel room.

Is she a freelance prostitute? Almost certainly. She doesn't have a job but seems to have plenty of money. She has some friends who are definitely on the game.

Last time I was here I gave her some money, but not much. This time she explicitly told me she didn't want any. She also got pretty surprised and offended when my hotel's reception asked her for ID. She spends a lot of time overseas, so I suspect she has a rich sugar daddy or two up her sleeve.

Anyway, whatever her situation, I don't care. I'm not looking to get married with her anytime soon.

Stick and his buddies would probably consider her to not be a quality girl. <You're not wrong! - Stick> I'm guessing I could meet someone even better than her if I lived here. Meeting hot, sweet, accommodating women here is insanely easy. If you have to give some of them a small amount of money in the morning, you can hardly complain you didn't get value for it.

Prostitutes in the West are completely different. I've never been with one, but that's because they're not attractive to me. Hard-core, expensive, and aggressive would be the only way to describe them. Many of them are obvious drug-addicts. A friend of mine paid a stripper $50 (1500 baht) for a ten minute lap-dance a couple of weeks back. He wasn't even allowed to touch her.

I've dated hot women in the West too, but the power balance is completely different. I spent a couple of months once going out with a girl who worked as a TV presenter on the Discovery Channel. She was also so beautiful that people regularly commented on it. Plus, she was often recognised as a minor celebrity, which was always nice for the ego. She liked sex too.

But I was left with little power. She could ditch me and find someone as good or better in a nano-second. She knew it and I knew it. Asserting yourself under such circumstances can be difficult, even if you know it's the right thing to do.

With my current Thai girl, I get the impression I'm the one with the choices. If she lost me, she'd have a hard time finding another guy as good, even if she is hot. She seems to be constantly worried I'll leave her for someone else. Right now she's gone home to do my laundry for me. Try finding a semi-attractive girl in the West who offers that kind of service.

That's the most interesting difference between Thailand and the West. The sexual marketplace is skewed towards men here, and women there. Indeed, the attitude I pick up from expats here is remarkably similar to that of girls back home. Farang men are the ones in demand here, and they know it. When Stick talks about "manning up" and being more demanding of girls, he's doing so from a position of market power. If he found himself single and dating in New Zealand again, I think his attitude would either have to change, or he'd find himself spending a lot of time sleeping alone.

It can take a while to get used to this new state of affairs. I'm certainly not there yet. So I think you should lighten up a bit on the newbies who comment here.

Statistics even reveal the difference in the marketplace. For those of you who haven't seen it before, the CIA World Factbook is a fascinating website. It has all types of interesting stats about every country on Earth. One I particularly like is the number of men and women who are fit for military service, which means healthy and between the ages of 16 and 49. The top age may be a little high, but in general you could consider this to be a good rough guide for the dating market in each country.

In Australia, for example, there are 1.04 men for every woman. The UK is the same. The US and New Zealand are a little better at 1.02 men per woman. Remember, these are the young and fit, so we're not talking about your local nursing home.

In Thailand there are 0.94 men per woman. In Brazil there are only 0.87 and in Russia only 0.77.

And that's just the measuring by quantity. When you look at qualitative factors, the marketplace becomes even more skewed.

What do most men want in a woman? Being physically attractive and easy to get along with are probably the most important things. Are there more women with these qualities in Western countries than in places like Thailand? I don't have any empirical data on the subject, but I think it's pretty clear the answer is no. If anything, Thailand probably has better quality women, when measured on what most men are looking for.

On the other hand, what are most women looking for in a man? Physical attractiveness is one factor. But they also want educated, financially secure, polite, healthy and loyal. Again, I don't have any hard figures, but I think it would be difficult to argue that there are more men in Thailand with these qualities than in the West. Around the world, middle-class Western men have a reputation for making the best husbands.

So women in the West are surrounded by high quality men and find themselves in comparative short-supply. In Thailand, it's the opposite. I used to go out with a Thai girl in Sydney who now lives in Hua Hin. I met her at a speed-dating night where every man there was interested in seeing her again (every guy ticked her card). She was hit on constantly by handsome, successful guys. Most of the time, she dressed conservatively with her hair up and glasses on, because anything more sexy was an invitation to be approached.

Now she's back in Thailand, she says it's almost impossible to meet a good guy. She's now dating a professional Thai guy who she admits she isn't physically attracted to. She also suspects he cheats on her. But she's worried that if she leaves him, it will be hard to find a replacement. This is an attractive middle-class girl with a good job and a nice personality.

Another interesting thing to note is that countries with less men tend to be less developed than those with more. You can have lots of fun speculating why, but I think there's something to be said for keeping men sexually frustrated being good for society. If men have to compete for quality women, they'll become better quality men.

Again, Thailand provides plenty of evidence of this. Stick often comments on how low-quality the farangs he sees in Bangkok are. Indeed, there's plenty of evidence that spending time here has a corrupting influence on a man's character. One example, among many, is the young man considering dropping out of medical school to become a low-paid English teacher after being exposed to the Thai sexual marketplace.

Dating in the West is an incredibly frustrating experience. I know many men who would be top of the tree here who go for years without sex in Australia. My best friend earns double the average wage and was known as a bit of a pick-up artist in his younger days. He told me recently he's only had sex with his wife twice in the past five years. She's become very overweight, doesn't work, doesn't put out, and spends so much of his money that he often can't afford a beer after work. This kind of thing is so common it's frightening.

I know another guy who is so handsome that he works as a male stripper. He constantly has women interested in him, but still complains about all the games and other crap he has to put up with. Even a guy who is so attractive that he can make good money from it is still on the back foot in his relationships.

If there's one phrase that can be used to sum up how Western culture brings up modern women it's "self-esteem". Sometime in the past, we decided our girls didn't have enough of it and needed much more. Education for girls these days resembles a self-help seminar more than the three Rs. From their earliest years they are told they are special, and entitled to the best of everything with little effort. There are many nice girls in the West, but even the best of them can't easily escape this cultural programming.

I was reading a column in the Sydney Morning Herald recently by a reasonably attractive (but not hot) 30-something Sydney woman who was trying out online dating. She claimed to have communicated with more than 300 men and been out with quite a few of them. Presumably there were many more whose emails she didn't even bother to reply to. The bottom line was that none of them were good enough for her. The entire column was a complaint that, while there were lots of great guys, there were none she "clicked" with. This attitude is unfortunately very common and starts early.

About a year ago the same paper published a column by a seventeen-year-old girl complaining about the poor quality of all the boys she knew. She compared them unfavourably to the vampire character in the novel Twilight - an immortal, spectacularly romantic, unbleliveably handsome and totally loyal dream man. The real males she found herself surrounded by were, by comparison "immature". The irony of an ordinary suburban teenager expecting an impossible fantasy man to fly in through her window making judgements about others maturity was apparently lost on her and the newspaper's editors. It also says something about our culture, that a column attacking teenage boys as a group can be published in a national newspaper. Even children are fair game for criticism if they're male.

Finding love in the West is not impossible, and there are plenty of good Western women out there. But the market is incredibly skewed against you as a man, when compared to Thailand and many other countries. And that's before we even start talking about the legal system that equates living with a woman to signing a contract handing over control of your assets.

There are plenty of complaints about Thai women on this website, and maybe some of them are justified. But I think if you look at the alternatives, and prevent yourself from getting in over your head, you'll find the dating market here is a pretty wonderful thing."

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/ReadersS ... er7037.htm