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Most of the discussion here focuses on women in the US, but I can tell you that Canadian women are not better. And in some places, such as Toronto and area, they are probably even worse. It's something that has become more and more evident as time went on. And the thing is that the coldness and aloofness of women here is so COMMON that it becomes accepted. Women go out of their way to avoid contact with others while out in public. They might appear passive on the surface, but believe me they are VERY active in the art of avoidance and subterfuge. It's gotten to the point where I'll size up a situation quickly and not bother to "tough it out" and see if something good happens. I'll just leave and go elsewhere.
About 8 years ago I was what many in the seduction community would call an "AFC". It's not a term I like, but it gets the point across. I was at that point where PUA and related concepts became very important to me to get out of this dating rut I was in. Back then "game" seemed like the ultimate answer to a poor social life and lack of women in my life, but after years of experience and trial and error I have come to realize that "game" is only a life raft. If you are sinking and don't know how to swim it can help you overcome some of your biggest mistakes. But it's all relative. If you're starving even a sh*t sandwich can seem appetizing. But admittedly I did have a fair degree of success with PUA material. The only problem was the level of success was in many ways abnormal; the women were shallow, manipulative, stimulation seeking, emotionally unregulated drama queens. PUA material was merely a way to navigate a broken system, a way to get results, no matter how lacklustre those results are, and then call it success.
It's worth mentioning that the best women I met were the ones that didn't require game. Everything was normal, and went seamlessly. So it's completely untrue that good game gets good women. Overcoming obstacles is not the path to getting good women. That's why I now only screen for women who make it easy for me. The law of returns works in my favor. The same goes if you only want sex. The best lays are "foolsmate" lays, contrary to what Mystery et al believe.
Over time I began to see that the seduction community has two major flaws: The first flaw is that it teaches you the very contradictory message that you have to learn to be masculine and be your own man while catering to women and their actions. So no matter what she does, it's up to you to calibrate it for best effect. If she wants cocky and funny you better be cocky and funny. If she wants an as*hole you better be that too. If she wants entertainment and you aren't entertaining then she will move on to the next guy who is.
The second flaw is that the seduction community never or rarely addresses those things that women are doing wrong. It's like a child who throws a tantrum and instead of disciplining him or her you take the position that you have to find out what it is they want and give it to them. There's this intense fear that if you call out women on their misbehaviour you are a chump or weak or unable to take it like a man. So rather than do that, many guys prefer to just take the "spoil the child" approach to getting laid. Game is basically a coping strategy for women's rotten behaviour. If a woman has attitude and is unresponsive god forbid you tell her to open up. It's your job to figure out what buttons to push.
It's not hard to see that game and PUA material is a downward spiral. I digress...
I signed up for this forum because I can relate to its premise. Although I have not traveled much I know for sure that women abroad are better. In fact some of the friendliest most open women I have met came here from overseas. And I've known guys who moved here and have taken a serious hit in their social life. So some might say that the traveler status helps, and when guys say they do better abroad it's because of that. Now, there is likely some truth to that, but like I said, I've known guys who have moved here from overseas who suddenly found themselves dateless and having a hard time making connections.
In my neck of the woods, women follow this rigid structure on where and how to meet men. As a result I've only ever met women at clubs and through the internet. Despite many, many attempts I have almost never met anyone through daytime pickup; either at the mall, bookstore, bus stop etc. You would think it was easy. Well you would be wrong.
Some might say that I wasn't gaming right or I was doing something wrong. That may have been more true in the beginning. But now I know it's the women that are closed off. It becomes most obvious when I get much better reactions from women when I meet them through friends or acquaintances (the accepted channels), but when I meet them out in public there's this wall that comes up. Hard to explain, but it's like this polite on the surface, but wanting to get the hell out of there vibe. And yet I am the same person everywhere, but the location makes all the difference. The PUA stuff is not a solution to this. It can help a bit but like this site owner said, they already have to be into you. I resisted this notion for the longest time but eventually I concluded that if you have overcome your shyness and are comfortable talking with strangers then PUA won't help. PUA only helps if you are very introverted; in which case PUA gives you material to work with, kind of like training wheels. There's also probably a placebo effect where you feel good about it and that shows in your overall vibe, making you more attractive.
So the only real benefit of PUA is that it's a template to get you talking, but it's no more useful than religion is to make you a better or more attractive person. Guys who cling to this are simply in life-raft mode, scared to move on to solid land or to greener pastures; which is what this site talks about.
It's a shame that these so-called PUA gurus are getting so much attention, with guys spending tons of money on their products. But none of these gurus talk about the dysfunctional dating culture in North America. To do that would admit a weakness that can't be marketed, and these guys have money to make. Take David DeAngelo for instance, who does provide some good information, but also some very bad. He seems to underscore all his good advice with this one sentence: "Do this to get women". Learn hobbies, be funny and interesting dot-dot-dot because it helps you get women. You have to wonder how far along he really is in his personal development.
Then there's Mystery, always teaching coping techniques on how to deal with any and all adverse dating situations. His classic line: "Men must learn to attract beautiful women or their genes will be mercilessly weeded out of existence". Great line BTW, plays on fear. And once the fear is primed a solution is offered. Very cult like. The only problem with this classic line is that it's relatively easy to eventually propagate your genes with someone, even in this dysfunctional culture, as long as you go out enough and talk to enough women. And the whole notion of "beautiful woman" is biased because in Mystery's and his followers view, only dolled up 18-25 year olds are beautiful or "perfect 10s", and since the techniques play on these women's insecurities (typical for girls this age) they are lauded as superior; ie. they get the "best women". If the techniques don't work, and they won't on older more intelligent women it is said that these women are not the best anyway. yada yada and you can say that the techniques are engineered to get the highest quality women and they won't work on the lower value women (anyone over 25). It's PUA slight of hand basically. Thing is, with evolutionary biology arguments you can prove just about anything. Lots of makeup is called superior beauty and immaturity is called exceptional femininity. Therefore, the (dysfunctional) techniques work on the "most beautiful, most feminine women".
Interestingly, Mystery comes from Toronto, Ontario. So his techniques are an adaptation to the type of women there. It's very telling and I would say useful from an academic point of view. Such techniques do not work well on women who have not been exposed to feminist dogma. And since Toronto is extremely politically correct, feminism thrives there, ruining relationships between men and women. I can attest that it's a very bad city to meet women. Even the best women relatively speaking leave a lot to be desired. But if I post this complaint on a PUA forum the majority of responses are going to be, do more push/pull, qualifying, compliance testing etc. That will not work when you are up against indoctrinated fear and hatred of males. I had to move away from Toronto for that main reason, and things are better where I am. But since I'm still in Ontario, the problems still exist, but to a lesser degree.
Don't get me wrong, I do think men honestly need to look at themselves and be willing to fix their issues. But we also can't ignore that women need to do their part too. THAT is what is missing from this culture: criticism of females. The assumption is always that men need to do the self-improvement part. But learning how to meet women will only go anywhere if the women are willing to do their part. Why should I put my best foot forward and go to all these lengths to meet women when they have already made up their mind that they don't want to meet me. Why throw pearls to swine? Sure, you can argue that maybe I'm doing something wrong. And that's possible, but if it is always assumed that the guy is at fault, then is it not likely that, in the absence of forced female introspection, women will become increasingly blind to their own shortcomings? And as a result, is it not likely that the true fault will eventually shift to women for the most part.
But nope, don't criticize women. Instead cope, be a man, and keep a positive attitude. Like the site owner said, a positive attitude won't help if women have an axe to grind. One thing I've learned is that a positive attitude helps but not with women who act like stone-faced gatekeepers. I've gone into many situations with a positive attitude and gotten burned. Sh*t happens. Just tell that to the survivors of a natural disaster who seconds before were living and enjoying life. You do not have control over everything. It's a certain new-age BS that has creeped into many people's thinking that has made a mockery of rational thinking.
Another point I want to make is that good looks don't help that much in this feminist climate. I know this because I've gotten many girls and a few guys tell me I'm very good looking, but that doesn't help that much. Most girls when they see me automatically assume I'm a player who will only use them, so even though they might be attracted they are indoctrinated to resist alpha males. So it's very ironic that if every woman assumed that I get all the girls -- but as a matter of principle I won't get her -- then I will hook up with nobody! Fortunately, I do hook up once in a while (definitely not often) but only with those few women who don't care that much who else I might be f*cking. It's funny how that works, but it's basically sexual politics. If you are a Democrat, and by definition the strong alpha guy is a Republican then you will refuse to be with them because they are your political enemy. Men, or rather masculinity in this feminized country, is the political enemy of the extreme Left. The result is a socialist unspoken tyranny against men. You see this everywhere. If you just keep your eyes open. This tyranny is most played out in divorce courts, custody battles, domestic violence, funding of women's programs vs. men's, and the whole dating sphere.
So in closing, I have eventually concluded that I need to travel to meet quality women on a consistent basis. It is not necessarily overseas, but it can just be in other cities in the province; places that for whatever reason might not be as strongly indoctrinated in feminism and male-hating. Of course, I'm sure the real improvement will be to go overseas. The truth is that I can't improve myself more than I have, so all that's left is to go where the women are themselves improved.
Last edited by Jakob on Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
I only read the first sentence. I will tell you though, USA and Canadian women are exactly the same. Same culture. Just regional differences in pronunciation. The same as NY vs TX.
I used to have a friend who insisted Canada must be different by virtue of being a different country. He also advocated the "hit on every woman you meet" numbers game bullshit. Needless to say, he had a low IQ and is no longer my friend. I cant be friends with anyone who advocates either strategy.
I will finish reading your post and will comment further if necessary.
Jakob, you must be some kind of genius. You know its vs it's? Congrats.
Anyhow, your post if Chock full of GEMS. Yes, Gems, dare I say it. I have never seen this written to eloquently. This is the exact problem with Anglophone women.
Hooking up is no problem outside the English speaking nations.
I do have friends from other colonies where English is spoken. They are hardcore women-firsters, and the women are all bitches. It is anywhere the British set foot in great numbers. The Sun never set on their empire and they ruined many nations with their Victorian-Puritanical crap. Now the USA is trying to do the same in the Middle East. Hopefully Iran, Russia and China will block the USA bastards.
Last edited by Adama on Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
okay I made a few edits
Insidious, I'll have a look at those websites. Part of the reason I created my own sites was so that what I write wouldn't get buried. But from what I read, this forum has a lot of interesting information not easily found elsewhere, and in some ways it's the "final solution" for guys who have done everything they can from their end of things to improve their dating lives.
I figure there will be a slow down in US influence, especially where feminism is concerned. It's something that takes a full generation to see the effects of. And now that domestic cars have proved greatly inferior to imports, domestic women will follow suit, but more harshly since it's at least understood that cars must have quality standards; that's something that's missing from the psyche of the typical Western female.
Wow you are a great writer and very insightful and sincere. That was a great post with a great conclusion. Very revealing too. I will share it with my list.
PUA is a cult, yeah, and very overhyped. It's also unnatural as well. It can help but will not turn your dating life around 180, nor make you feel good about it, nor is it good for your conscience. Like you said, it would only work on dumb air head type of girls, not intelligent down to earth ones.
You pointed out its flaws and shortcomings brilliantly and accurately. I will probably be linking this post in my ebook or home page.
It is true that Canadian women are similar to US women in that they do not like to be approached and expect you to leave them alone and mind your own business. And if you hit on them, they blow you off like it's a standard routine that even you would expect. The only difference is that they are less obese than American women and more health conscious. Plus they are less hateful too, in comparison at least. But in general, the dating scene sucks there too, like in the US. It's not easy to meet girls there, other than polite conversation about the weather. I've started conversations with girls in Vancouver, Canada, and they are polite, but distant and it never goes beyond casual short chit chat.
If you were to ask Canadian women themselves though, they would not agree that they are like American women, just like British people would not say that they are like Americans either.
Btw, welcome to the forum. How did you find out about this site?
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
Interesting post Jakob. I have heard numerous guys say Canadian women are just as anti-social as American women. It's interesting how approaching women in public in Canada is just as taboo as it is in the US. Women do put up this "barrier" or "wall" when a guy approaches them in the US and Canada. Bars and clubs do seem to be the only route for guys to take when it comes to meeting women in North America. Of course, to do this, you need to learn some game. Just try appraoching women in bars and clubs in North America by "being yourself" and see what happens! LOL
The seduction community does serve a purpose (if you just want to get laid or have short term relationships) but for meeting a women you will want to be with for a long time, the seduction community really doesn't help guys out much. Isn't prostitution legal in Canada? At least that would be one plus for living in Canada over the United States.
Hi Winston, thanks for the positive feedback!
I accumulated a lot of evidence over the years that PUA is a poor strategy, but it was only possible to become aware of it by completely disconnecting from the seduction community. Unplugging can sometimes be the best therapy.
As it stands, PUA is increasingly seen as a solution to dealing with western women. Most men are still not ready to embrace a "buy elsewhere" mentality. They want to work with what they got and learn whatever it takes to do that, which is understandable, but it is inevitable that the shift will occur.
It's hard to say if Canadian women as a whole are better or worse than American women. Our cultures are both so integrated. But no doubt the similarities are striking.
Sure, I don't mind you linking to this post in any capacity you like. It's important to just share our experiences openly.
I've known about this site for a few months now. I've seen links to it on various forums. I think one of the first sites I came across which advocates foreign women is nomarriage.com. It's pretty incendiary the way it depicts American women. I think it might link to your site as well.
Last edited by Jakob on Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The wall you describe is extremely common. I used to think it would be like taking candy from a baby since other guys almost never approach in public. Boy, was I wrong. You are basically fighting against the association they are making of you in that public place. You can't shake that prejudice from their mind. And even if you manage to win their approval and get their number or whatever, they will eventually go back to their parents, or friends who will then talk them out of it, or put the fear of God in them. Why bother when you're up against that? It doesn't build character. It only pisses you off after a while!
Clubs and bars are no picnic here either. You do have to pick the best ones where the women are most laid back and receptive. But even then it can be a real uphill struggle. So I don't even try anymore. I'll go into a place and size it up quickly if the women are approachable, or not. It's not rocket science. You know if women want to talk and you know if they don't. So it's nice to have a few places lined up in one night so you have options.
Yep, prostitution is legal in Canada, just as long as there is no direct solicitation out in public.
I'm in the exact same boat as you. I'm azn Canadian, goodlooking, can sing, dance etc and I went to highschool in Toronto and basically did my university education in Ontario. I agree with you competely - after trying the PUA stuff for many years - you named the PUA, I have learned everything every major PUA has taught. It's very difficult to find quality women in Toronto. Gradually, I realized the PUA stuff could only help you marginally given you are already in a good social climate. So basically, it addresses the symptoms rather than the real causes. The PUAs techniques are mainly for getting laid, not for addressing a quality relationship problem we have. We want a quality women like these in Russian, Eastern Europe etc, not some snobby, impatient, man-hating $%^&.
I also lived in Montreal - the result is same as Toronto - probably even worse. Overall, I don't suggest Canada as a good place to find a quaity female partner - wife or girlfriend. Canada is good for getting a quality education, raising a family, asking directions but even for finding a good paying job might be big chanllenge since the taxes are so high.
So definteily foreign women are the answer. I usually find that even you learned all the PUA techniques, you won't be able to use them since it's hard to open. They simply don't like to talk!! what are you going to do? only old ladies 50s 60s like to talk.
Anyways, I would rule out all of Canada as good place to meet women - that includes Vancouver.
What does AFC mean?
btw, I entered "define: PUA" into google, which usually gives me a relevant definition, but it wasn't there. I finally figued out it meant Pick Up Artist when you started mentioning those money making sites, however, I still can't figure out AFC.
I have to add a few more things - I do see many azn guys with anglo Canadian girls once in a while in toronto. And there are a lot of mixed couples too. I still don't quite understand for a city like toronto, where half of the population is foreign-born, it is so difficult to date for guys. Perhaps, most people coming here are already married etc. how ironic the greatest PUA is from my city -toronto. lol that says something about the difficulty in dating here. I have never heard a Russian PUA LOL perhaps, just to my guess there must be some female Russian PUAs out there)
I have to say Canadian girls, a lot of them, are pretty hot. Personality-wise, however, that's a different story.
Again, Canadian girls are incomparible to Russian girls, both looks and personality.
Interesting and well written perspective. I find most Canadians i've met to be nice and polite but it reminds me of being similar to northwestern/midwestern U.S. politeness in that in the exterior it's very pleasant but the people really don't want anything to do with you socially unless it involves business or you have had an extremely formal social induction into the group. It's basically "Japanese" politeness wrapped in a western veil. I'm not surprised that Canada isn't much better for dating though when you consider the social song and dance involved just to make a friend of even the same gender.
With that being said Canadians do have something over most Americans in that a lot of Americans can't even be bothered to carry on an exterior politeness these days. This is doubly true if you are a pretty far from the culturally dictated norm (ie. non white) living in an American city.
I have lived all over the world and I have lived in Toronto 1.5 years and it is the only city I ever gave the finger to from an airplane as I left.
It is most definitely the most anti-male city in the entire world.
Why? They are major left wingers for starters and they emulate Americans in a magnified way. For those who do not know by now, a major thing about leftism is hating older white males (the patriarchy). They never had a Reagan defeat communism for once and for all and actually felt at the time and still think Reagan was a major disaster. In other words, reality never got to knock on their door.
So where New York and Boston feminists will make major headway but face air resistance from enough males with common sense (Soctt Brown beat Martha Coakley because she was far too feminist), Torontonians will just get the drift that feminism is, indeed, winning in the USA so they will copy it while the Canadian men will do NOTHING to offer resistance.
Outside Toronto, there are more conservatives in the small towns. Their daughters don't hate men so much.
I had the most miserable time of my life in Toronto when I was doing extremely well in NYC. My game was in top form in New York. But that did not matter in Toronto. The Toronto feminists assumed they were emulating New York women but they were NOT. They were far, far, far worse.
Copy cat cultures are dangerous.
Plaintiffs needed to fight IMBRA and VAWA which legally codify foreign women as little children unable to defend themselves against evil American men
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