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Among ethnic Chinese, the Cantonese are considered to be more cliquish to their own subnational ethnicity. Shanghainese resented the Cantonese in HK, because the CCP had shut down Shanghai's foreign trade in the past, versus HK prospered and, during its peak, handled some 80% of China's foreign trade. But things are different now.
Not all Cantonese speakers are actually Cantonese. i.e. many Teochow and Hakka families use Cantonese because the places where they lived used Cantonese as the lingua franca. I've dated several girls from Cantonese speaking families, but only 2 are actually ethnic Cantonese.
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Hopefully that changes.
Plenty of young Americans are having tons of trouble with the dating scene in the U.S. They usually attribute their troubles to lack of self-confidence or simply bad luck, and refuse to take on the politically incorrect idea that the entire social environment is screwed up. Some might get sucked into PUA. By the time they have no other choice but to admit it, and actually decide to find a solution to it, they're already comparatively older. These young men might have to go through several horribly failed relationships and/or divorces before they start to realize that something's wrong with the social dynamics of America. Young people need to wake up and take action for themselves before their youth is all gone.
I'm still in my very early 20's, and am not taking any chances with the mainstream American dating scene anymore. When I say that I have a girlfriend in Mexico, my peers often give me weird looks and say, "Um, that's weird" or "That's messed up, why would you go all the way over there?" My parents and peers ask me why I'm not dating women in California, and insist that I should date some more American girls. Occasionally when I have the guts to be politically incorrect and say that many American girls are pretentious or shallow, they would automatically respond, "Don't you think you're generalizing too much? There are so many girls out here." Of course I don't mean to generalize, but if you go abroad and actually get to know the people abroad, you'll start seeing patterns involving HUGE differences.
I think life is too short to waste on things like going back to the American dating scene for a few more years. I'm glad I started early with foreign dating/romance, and I have no regrets.
Wow, there are quite a few Taiwanese Americans here, just like myself. Great to see that.
A new tenant moved into my spare room 13 days ago - a guy from this forum who decided to explore Taiwan as a potential HA abroad destination. I just met him face-to-face 4 days ago when I returned from my SE Asian travels.
Monkro (no posts) describes himself as an average but youthful looking very short American of Indian ancestry who does not speak Chinese. He's mid-30s, never married, and has approached a couple thousand girls in the States over the last 15 years or so. With all those approaches, he's only achieved intimacy with about 14 and only 3 were American, other were foreigners. One of his biggest complaints about the States is how girls often reject him so rudely or treat him like he's some kind of creep just for trying to talk with them.
First 9 days in Taiwan
When I got back 4 days ago, he de-briefed me on his experience. He had approached roughly 35 girls (some day and some at night in clubs) and was in ongoing phone/text contact with 5 of those. An additional one had approached him in a club and he was in contact with her too so that made 6 pearls in total. He had been out on dates with a couple of them including the one who approached him. So far, he hadn't brought any back home but did make out with a couple of them at a club, one a Japanese girl who later blew him off.
I went out with him in the late afternoon and evening to several venues - my neighborhood, Shi Da night market area, a small club called 45, and finally a larger club called Roxy 99. He approached about 12 girls in total and I mostly observed. Monkro's method is to target lone wolves (girls by themselves), ask some innocent question like directions, and then if they seem friendly and keen to chat, slowly move the conversation into other areas, establish some rapport, and if he senses any possible interest, ask to exchange contact details. He plays it as a numbers game and does not put in too much effort with any one encounter.
Of the 12 he approached, only one came-off as very cold and spoke almost perfect English as if she'd spent a lot of time in the States. Many of the others were cordial and helpful but he sensed they were not really interested in chatting so he quickly thanked them and left. 4 were quite friendly and chatted for awhile as follows:
1. Met in front of cake shop in my neighborhood. She smiled at us and we chatted with her for about 10 minutes. She gave him her contact details and was keen to make friends. But towards the end, he found out she was waiting for her local bf to finish his shift. Sure enough, a couple minutes later, 'Jimmy' showed up so he made a hasty exit. Monkro only plans to be in Taiwan for a limited period and does not want to even try with girls in relationships. Disqualified.
2. Met on the bus ride to Shi Da. She was very friendly and outgoing and chatted with us the whole ride. She's originally from Hong Kong but came to Taiwan to study uni and is living with her Taiwan bf. Disqualified.
3. Approached along the sidewalk on Shi Da Rd. near Shi Da Night Market area. Girl was very friendly and stopped to chat. Short but cute recent finance grad from a top Taiwan uni now working in a bank. We talked to her for over 30 minutes just standing on the sidewalk before excusing ourselves. I tried to sell Monkro to her as a FOB American keen to make Taiwan friends and learn the language and culture. She gave him 2 calling cards (work and personal) plus her Facebook addy. When he gave her his number, she called him to test it. I asked her if she had ever had a foreign bf before and she told me she had dated a European briefly but quickly distanced herself from him cus he was too nice and boring, lol. Hmm. If Monkro can get a phone/text rapport going with this girl, she will become pearl number 7.
4. In Roxy 99, he danced closely with one girl who was all over him and then chatted to her friend for awhile. But first girl seemed quite drunk and was only marginally attractive in his eyes. So he decided to move-on without asking for contact details.
He went to the zoo with one of his pearls plus her female friend. In the evening, they went out for spicy hot pot with a third girl. All 3 are very cute uni students. Then they visited a night market for some desserts. The girls paid for everything at all 3 venues, he didn't spend even a dime. He was amazed at how friendly, easygoing, and entertaining all them were towards him the whole time.
1. Monkro is off to a good start, but perhaps quite not as good as my former French tenant who got full on intimacy with a couple Taiwan girls within first 13 days here. Perhaps being plugged into a uni network as an exchange student and appearing in clubs with an assorted group of foreign students helped. Monkro seems to prefer flying solo and has not been very aggressive with his follow-up work due to some unrelated work projects he's been busy with.
2. Taiwan girls may appear to be unapproachable at first sight as per Winston's rants. But for foreigners (white or otherwise) who try, they are usually at least friendly and polite, a sharp contrast to the way American girls tend to behave. On Saturday, one hot girl Monkro asked directions to at bus stop got on the arriving bus with him (even tho it wasn't her bus) to explain to driver where he was going and to alert him when bus got to Shi Da. Clearly, when girls reject foreigners here, they tend to be much softer and indirect than their US counterparts. That makes the game much less painful and anxiety ridden.
3. Monkro is no PU artist. He does not have a bunch of tricks, lines, or routines up his sleeve. He simply applies a numbers game with the hopes of eventually running into girls who express clear indicators of interest right off the bat. Achieving 3 first dates, 1 second date, 8 pearls, and even a girl pursuing him in just 13 days and 47 tries with girls he's attracted suggests promising odds and a game which may turn out to be well worth playing. Those numbers certainly blow-away his US results.
4. Monkro is encouraged by his initial results here and is enjoying his new emerging social life. He's already decided to extend his stay from 1 month to 2 months or more.
5. I think attitude is a major factor which ultimately determines whether a person has a positive or negative HA experience in a given country. Often, it's the difference between seeing the glass half full vs. half empty. If you're not stand-out good looking or exceptional in some other way which translates to easy success with women, you will need to be the one to be proactive and do most of the approaching, even in Taiwan.
On October 19, 2011, I received an email from russj, a non-posting forum member here, asking to recommend some good Taipei clubs as he was planning to visit soon for a few days. I have no idea about his particulars as I never met him and didn't ask. But he mentioned that he liked to meet girls both through day game and at clubs. I replied with the name of a few venues and asked him to send me a follow-up email once he finished his trip to let me know how things went.
On November 29, 2011, I got another PM from him and this is what he told me (I got his permission to post this but he requested I block-out the specific name of his favorite 2 clubs, each of which I will denote as XXX):
Hey man, thanks for this. Good advice and served me well.
Personally, I'm much more of a day game guy, and I did that here as well. The problem is that, as you mentioned, it takes a little time, and I only have two weeks here. Even so, I managed to get a few numbers and e-mails every day by going to various areas. The best I think are Ximen, Shida, Zongchou Dunhua and 101. I would basically choose an area and stay there for a few hours and approach attractive girls on their own who were shopping or walking around. The majority of girls weren't interested, didn't speak English or had boyfriends or husbands, but literally nobody was turned off by me talking to them. Of the numbers I did get, I got a lot of dates and some intimacy, but no sex. If I had more time this would definitely happen, but the other issue is that these girls are not looking for one night stands but relationships, so it's a little deceptive.
In terms of clubs, I tried Spark (nothing), Babe18 (nothing), Luxy (few numbers and makeouts), but the easiest are XXX and XXX. By going there I managed to sleep with 4 girls in 5 days. I also met a few girls on Tealit, one of whom I slept with.
Basically, if you just want sex, the clubs are definitely your best bet. But if you have more time, and are interested in higher quality girls, day game is better.
I told you Rock, that your tenant would only have positive reports. I was right after all. Just as I suspected, no one flaked out on him, even though he's dark and short, which TW girls don't like. They only flake out on me.
It seems that according to you, everyone does well in Taiwan except me. So I must be below average? I highly doubt it. I'm better than most guys at approaching girls and charming/sweet talking them.
I was in Taipei at those places, and the girls would not stop to talk to me at all. They were cold. Nothing but disappointment and blue balls there. A total waste of time.
You've still never answered my question about how to get hot TW girls to stop, the ones with sexy long legs. They always walk by and ignore me like I don't exist. You never explained to me how to get to them to stop. I've been asking this question for years now. In Europe, if you just say "Excuse me" a lot of girls will stop. But not in Taiwan. You've never been able to provide a solution to that.
I just posted 8 reasons why I'm skeptical of the claim that you and others make, that most or all guys here can get girls, dates, romance and casual sex easily and anytime here. There are 8 factors which make this claim highly improbable. I've elaborated on them here:
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
1. What would make u open your mind up a bit to considering Taiwan as a good HA destination for certain types of guys seeking dates and romance with attractive young girls? Why don't u take my tenant up on his invitation to come up to Taipei and meet him in person? U could hit some clubs with him at night and perhaps even meet one or more of the girls he's already done well with.
The guy might be short and dark complected. But he does have some strong points which help a lot:
- very young looking for his age - could easily pass for 20s
- well dressed and decent looking with a bit of style, some even guess him to be Spanish or other Latin instead of Indian (quite different from the Indian guy we met before in Taichung)
- very proactive in approaching girls and willing to engage both during day and at night in clubs
- polite and respectful
- interested in Chinese food and culture
Remember, he plays a numbers game and gets rejected on the majority of his approaches. But these rejections are much softer than those he often gets in USA. Moreover, he's had enough success so far to make it very worthwhile.
2. You recently mentioned a German friend of yours here in Taiwan who is tall, young, and good looking but gets bad results (correct me if I am wrong here). I'm pretty sure he has a negative attitude towards Taiwanese and is not very proactive. If you bring him with you and makes a sincere effort, I'm confident that he can do even better than my tenant if he's willing to approach and be proactive.
3. Even if u r not able to succeed in Taiwan yourself, don't take it so personally. It sounds like you are quite popular with many mainland ladies, many of who may not be open to foreigners. Anyway, u shld give Taiwan a chance as a potential spot for some others, even if the people do look hyper repressed to u. As I've said before, that might actually be an advantage for some.
Is that all u wanna c??? Come up to Taipei and we'll show u. Getting a Taipei girl, even a hot one, to stop and answer whatever question u might have or even to chat a bit is not very hard. The majority of girls will oblige. But so what? That alone really doesn't mean much except that she's polite and perhaps a bit friendly.
I guess the reason is that Rock is a tall, Nordic looking guy, and that type is a very powerful sexual magnet in those countries to a certain stratum of younger people that have an obsession with things Western.
I had a similar experience when I was in Japan with a group of American teachers. To me, Japan was a land of frozen statues with people not making any eye contacts, the girls looking robotic and non-human almost. They were frozen-like. Talking to strangers was such a taboo, and everyone seemed so cold and impersonal that even Americans stood out like open, expressive and Latin-like on that background.
There was one guy in our group who was thin, tall and blond, and very good looking. Well, guess what? He "defrosted" those Japanese girls, and they practically came to him out of nowhere, out of the woodwork, as it would seem.
I saw him smiling all the time with yet another cutie by his side. Eventually he found a great girl, sweet and very good looking and stuck with her. His Japanese skills were minimal, but he scored all the time nonetheless.
He told me many times that Japan was an open, welcoming society with extremely warm and hospitable people. And that the girls there were so easy to pick up.
This other teacher who was fatter, older and balding, without the mane of blond hair, hated Japan and found the people cold and rude and extremely racist. He even experienced the Japanese spit at him when he was there. And not one girl was interested in him. Was it his attitude? Partly, but partly not. I do not want to discount the attitudes of the Japanese society which played a huge role in the way he was treated.
I was also not popular because of being short and having a Mediterranean look which did not fulfill the many girls' fetish for a Leonardo DiCaprio look alike.
I did not score in Thailand, either, but many Filipinas, otoh, loved me. They liked the Mediterranean look, they liked my mild manners and my modesty. But other guys did not fare well in the Philippines. I knew a French guy who was young and tall, and blond and who owned a factory there. A rich guy. He hated it and was wondering why he could not find a girl. Was it his attitude? Partly, but again, I do not want to blame him completely. The society with its prejudices and various fetishes and preferences is also a variable in the equation.
Different countries respond differently to different people. This is what I have learned by observing how they responded to me and other expats.
So, Rock may be "unfreezing" those robotic Taiwanese girls and shaking them out of their stupor by being exceptionally good looking, exotically foreign, masculine and attractive to them. In other words, yes, they are conservative and repressed but he melts them and makes them come out of their shells.
As far as other, average-looking expats, well, I guess they attract girls who have a foreign fetish, and because there are so many people in Taiwan, and the population density is so great, well, it makes it for there being enough girls for all those guys.
To give a comparison, say, let's take an Asian girl in Los Angeles somewhere. Not all Americans have an "Asian fetish", actually, most do not, but there are still enough for her to be hit on very frequently and to be able to get a BF very soon.
Also, I would really like to see the quality of the women that both Rock and other expats are getting. Would be interesting to see their pictures.
It is also quite easy for white guys to find unattractive over-aged women in Japan. And even in Thailand. Quality girls are hard to find, though. And even then, quality is in the eyes of the beholder.
In case of Winston, because he is Taiwanese, he may not have the foreign exotic appeal to those Taiwanese girls that go for Rock, who, to them, looks like an actor that just got off a Hollywood movie screen. A foreigner has one type of appeal that he can capitalize on, and a Taiwanese would have a different type of appeal.
US bred Asian people often feel alienated back in Asia because they are not foreign enough to be treated as some mysterious creatures, but also not local enough to be dealt with on local terms.
This may be the case here, as well. Just my theory.
Last edited by ladislav on April 23rd, 2012, 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!
A lot of what u say makes sense to me at least - different looks + different attitudes = vastly different experiences and depend a lot on prevailing biases of locals. But, my most recent posts on Taiwan have been about a person who in theory should not do so well - short and darker skinned foreigner. Yet he's had a fantastic start. OTH, Winston's friend who sounds ideal by the standards u refer to - tall, good looking, young, and white - has not done very well according to Winston.
Moreover, the most common type of foreign guy in Taiwan tends to be very average and ordinary looking. You see much more attractive foreigners in Thailand or HK. Same goes for foreign women, lol. I actually think the sweet spot here is for more average types of foreigners, not the better looking ones who might have strong options elsewhere. I often see very attractive girls with rather ordinary types of guys here. The reverse is true as well. This is not a place where you need to be good looking. Youth helps a lot as does being engaging and proactive. But when u break through the shell, many here are extremely friendly and hospitable. They go out of their way to make outsiders feel welcome.
I haven't spent much time in Taiwan, but I can safely say that international female students from Taiwan and China are roughly the same as what was just described above. I seem to be pretty good at "defrosting" them because they usually think I'm a very interesting person. It could be partly due to looks and/or my "multicultural fluency" (American, Mexican, Chinese, etc.), or that I strike them as a very intellectually curious person. But I seem to be even better at talking to Latinas. Most of the time, they are very open people and do not even need to be "defrosted" in the first place.
The different looks + different attitudes and then there is some wild card and some rogue factor at work as well that makes for strange events and things that do not make sense. I just call it some karmic luck/un-luck bomb. I really believe in that. This also goes for jobs and why there are some people that are nice and talented and they don't get chosen but some ignoramus does. And why some guy is good looking and he does not score with girls; he should be, but nothing is happening.
There is some wild card at work there. Still hard to explain but it possibly has to do with karma, I guess. Deep karma that cancels out or overrides reality and common sense and makes things/events either not go anywhere or go in some wild and opposite direction.
As far as the average foreigner goes, well, he may seem average and ordinary to you but he probably still looks like some actor they see on TV or just has a foreign appeal. If they watch Friends or some movie and there is an average looking actor there he is still Caucasian and still looks like someone. Plus, unlike the many robotic Japanese, the Taiwanese seem to appreciate personality as well and value it. So, when you add all that up, the guy scores.
Last edited by ladislav on April 26th, 2012, 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!
Your friend who is Indian simply looks "different" which is enough to pique initial curiosity. Let's be honest it probably also helps to not look like some Taiwanese girl's aging uncle or a TW taxi guy. I know that comment enrages Winston but it's literally the elephant in the room in why these girls are not positive towards his advances. Being average is fine but I think looks do matter a lot especially if it triggers some deeper adverse emotional reaction based on uncomfortable familiarity.
After all would you feel comfortable getting hit on by a woman that looked exactly like your aunt or mother? I certainly wouldn't. I don't care what country she hails from. It would be an instant turn off.
One advantage a white (or non TW) guy of a similar age as Winston has is that they look different enough to at least not trigger these negative reactions based on close familial resemblance. So even if the man is not attractive the girl might still chat with them on friendly terms instead of straight ignoring them like Winston claims happens to him.
Makes sense. But Winston will claim that even when he was here at 17, the girls ignored him just as much.
Myst is a chic Taiwan style club in ATT4Fun building in 101 area. .
My tenant went there tonight and I observed. 98% of people there were local and the few foreign women we saw were Eastern European. I must say, the girls there did not look apporachable. Many were dolled-up divas and when they weren't dancing or engaged in closed conversations with friends, they were busy messing with their iPhones. But that didn't stop Monkro.
Over 3 hours, he would observe, set a target, and approach. But he kept getting shot-down. After 5 times, I told him he should just throw in the towel and go home. But he told me he was just getting started and wanted to get in 20 tries that night. No. 6 was a tall Polish girl from small town who talked to him for awhile, was friendly, and gave digits. But she is only going to be in Taipei for 2 weeks and I see that as a long shot. We'll see.
After a 3 more shoot-downs, he sat close to 2 very cute girls but just as he was about to talk to one of them, 2 ABCs moved in and these girls were clearly into them.
No. 10 was another very cute girl there with several friends, also sitting on the stage. I thought, why bother. But he tried and amazingly, she was very friendly and told him to move closer. Her friends magically disappeared and he talked to her for about an hour (I left first) and set-up a date to meet on another night. She was clearly into him.
I think most guys would've given up after less than 5 tries in an environment like that where the girls don't look easy to meet. But his patience and confidence seem to have yielded a new high quality pear. We'll see how far he gets with these leads. See how long it takes for him to get to next level.