Join John Adams, world renowned Intl Matchmaker, Monday nights 8:30 EST for Live Webcasts!
And check out Five Reasons why you should attend a FREE AFA Seminar! See locations and dates here.


Scam free! Christian Filipina - Meet Asian women with Christian values! Members screened.
Exclusive book offer! 75% off! How to Meet, Date and Marry Your Filipina Wife



View Active Topics       View Your Posts       Latest 100 Topics       FAQ Topics       Switch to Mobile


Can an all-good/all-powerful God allow evil/suffering?

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

Moderators: jamesbond, fschmidt

Postby BellaRuth » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:38 pm

Winston wrote:Bella,
I have asked Christians, including the most well read and devout, those questions. They had no answer except the typical "The Bible is true cause it's God's word. The Bible is God's word cause it says so. I've been born again by accepting Christ so I know it's true." It was completely circular. They had no real answer or rock solid evidence or logical reason. This has happened with a ton of Christians. So who else do you want me to ask?


I don't know where on earth you're finding these Christians. That's all I can say.

Maybe they just don't want to defend their beliefs to you? If someone pressed me on my beliefs in real life I'd find it intolerably rude and would give them an answer such as 'I just believe it'. It doesn't mean that's true, or that's all there is to it, it means I would rather infuriate them than dance to their tune. It's none of their business. If someone is genuinely interested, that shows itself.

I doubt any Christian, or any religious person, or any atheist, has swam through life without questioning their beliefs to make sure they really agree. Humans are curious, questioning, they want to believe they're right. Christians are not exempt from this.

Unfortunately, you've done the same by avoiding the questions put forth to you. Why? Why is it so hard to answer them? They are serious crucial questions.


I'm not avoiding answering them because they are too hard to answer. They're not actually ground-breaking questions and are not going to make Christians gasp in realisation and immediately renounce their religion. It's nothing no one has heard before. If someone I knew asked me in sincerity I'd give my answers. But I'm not going to make a spectacle of my personal beliefs on the internet for someone to masturbate their ego with. I don't mind what you believe and have no interest in converting you to anything else, but it annoys me when people talk as if Christians are slack-jawed retards who have no capability of reason. This says more about them than the Christians they are patronising.

Ok sure, if it makes you happy, I'll do the same with Islam. Here it goes:

"There is no logical basis for the belief that the Koran is the infallible word of God or that Islam is absolute truth and above questioning."

Is that better?


You know I was just making a point about how your energies are so focused on one religion.

Btw, if you are a Christian who does not believe in a literal hell, that's fine. I am not attacking your version of Christianity, but the fundamentalist version that I was taught and that pervades America. Why do you have a problem with that?


Ok, so now you're not arguing against Christianity but the fundamentalist Christianity you're familiar with.

I can't defend that, so don't bring me into it!

This is more due to Christianity being watered down and becoming wishy-washy than it is to do with the abandonment of the idea of hell. It was only aged 17 that I was confronted with the doctine of hell fully. Nevertheless, the doctine is firmly in place in all Protestant sects and in Catholicism. Only fringe groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses have no hell (and maybe the Seventh Day Adventists, not sure).

These girls on your forum are possibly not aware of the real Christian teachings on hell through a lack of emphasis on it publicly.

I have read many Evangelical writers, both American and British, and there is almost complete agreement about the idea that non-believers go to hell.


I gave you lots of links to read concerning this, on this very thread. If you're going to ignore them and pursue the subject anyway, I'm not going to go and bring it all back up.

I don't know who your friend is but perhaps he should go beyond evangelical hard-liners before he dismisses everything else as being 'wishy-washy' and presumes that anyone different to those he's used to are 'not aware of real Christian teachings'.
BellaRuth
Freshman Poster
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 9:37 pm
Location: UK







Postby momopi » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:51 pm

Terrence wrote:I can attest that 7th Day Adventists have no hell. Unbelievers die, return to the dust and are simply gone. Another way to say it is that hell is eternal separation from god.
The old testament has no hell either. For that matter, neither does the new testament in Aramaic or Greek. Words like Hades, Gehena, The Pit, all different words in the original languages are translated to one word, "hell" in the new testament. Thus a doctrine is built on that concept. The only thing even approaching the hell doctrine in the book is in one of Jesus' parables, which was never meant to represent reality, unless people in hell can easily communicate with people in the real world, or in heaven anytime they please.


Tartarus -> Hell
Asphodel Meadows -> Limbo
Elysium -> Paradise (Heaven)
momopi
Elite Upper Class Poster
 
Posts: 4720
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:44 am
Location: Orange County, California

Postby Winston » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:17 am

Bella,
None of your points make any sense. I was not being rude or pressing anyone for answers. Many Christians I know are glad to share and witness their faith. But they cannot answer those questions I posited. They can't.

Why are you challenging that? I have met Christians everywhere, all over the world, and yes Protestants do tend to believe that unbelievers go to hell. I don't see what you are protesting against? Your post is not making sense.

In Moscow I met two Christian Missionaries. We talked a lot and I went to their church. We talked for hours and had dinner. Eventually I wrote up this summary of points to them. They were never able to address or refute them.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Respon ... naries.htm

Christians DO believe the following regarding why there is evil and suffering in the world. You don't deny it right?

"God allows evil and suffering to exist in the world because Man chose to Sin in the Garden of Eden. God gave Man freewill, and Mankind chose Sin. Hence death, pain, decay and evil entered into the world. God is 100 percent just and righteous, so all this is Mankind's fault, not God's. It says so in the Bible."


Go into any Bible-believing Protestant Church and ask them. There's nothing mysterious about it. That's what they believe. So what are you disputing exactly?

My question is: WHY do they believe that? How do they know that the Bible is true and infallible?

Why do you keep sidetracking from this question?

I asked some logical questions in this thread. You haven't answered any of them, but have made excuses that don't make sense. You have not addressed any of the points I made. Not one. I don't know why. It's illogical.

Not all Christians are dumb. Some are intelligent. But they do not have valid answers to those questions. They believe on faith because someone told them that it was the truth. I know, cause I used to be one. I am very familiar with both sides of the debate. I used to be one too, and I know all the arguments they use. You forget that.

Anyhow, here is the full version of my essay that I just put up:

Christianity's Irresolvable Problems, Circular Reasoning and Lack of Foundational Basis

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Christian_Problems.htm
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
 
Posts: 24283
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:16 pm

Postby odbo » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:29 am

Winston, Protestant/Catholic/Mormon/insert-crazy-sect-here Missionaries going to Russia, the world capital of Christianity prior to 1917.. to teach Christianity makes as much sense as me going to India to teach Hinduism. Most people are dumb regardless of their background. Think how hard it is to find a good doctor or mechanic, even though they all go to the same schools.

Winston wrote:Not all Christians are dumb. Some are intelligent. But they do not have valid answers to those questions. They believe on faith because someone told them that it was the truth.

Doesn't that make them dumb?
odbo
Veteran Poster
 
Posts: 2171
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:40 pm

Postby Winston » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:42 pm

odbo wrote:Winston, Protestant/Catholic/Mormon/insert-crazy-sect-here Missionaries going to Russia, the world capital of Christianity prior to 1917.. to teach Christianity makes as much sense as me going to India to teach Hinduism. Most people are dumb regardless of their background. Think how hard it is to find a good doctor or mechanic, even though they all go to the same schools.

Winston wrote:Not all Christians are dumb. Some are intelligent. But they do not have valid answers to those questions. They believe on faith because someone told them that it was the truth.

Doesn't that make them dumb?


In that sense maybe. But they can be smart in other areas of life. As you know, we all have weaknesses. Some are great chefs but terrible in critical thinking, and others vice versa. I'm dumb at cooking and in trying to figure out how to use a washing machine. But I'm smart in other areas. Christians may not have good critical thinking skills, cause their reason has been hijacked by their extreme beliefs, but they can be smart and knowledgeable in other areas of life.

Do you see my point?

The Christianity in Russia is Russian Orthodox. It is a mere family ritual, not a theology. The kind of Christianity that those missionaries were preaching is not mainstream anywhere, not even in the US.
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
 
Posts: 24283
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:16 pm

Postby cutehumor » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:36 am

Winston, how are you? I haven't talked to you in awhile, but alot has happened in the past year. I had a near death experience and was on a ventilator for two weeks last September. In my near death experience, I was hearing GOD call me. I was hearing disemobidied voices saying they need to find someone to talk to me. They got you to talk to me. I was hearing your voice and you were explaining the meaning of life to me. but now that I'm healthy again, I don't remember exactly what you told me. I'm being serious. it was a crazy near death experience.

To answer your question, GOD does exist. why do good people suffer? well, according to the bible, when adam and eve sinned. they let sin into the world and all of us have suffered. back then, people were immortal by eating the fruit from the tree of life. but their sin by disobeying GOD, let all mankind suffer. that's how I understand it.
cutehumor
Freshman Poster
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:01 pm

Postby Winston » Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:37 am

cutehumor wrote:Winston, how are you? I haven't talked to you in awhile, but alot has happened in the past year. I had a near death experience and was on a ventilator for two weeks last September. In my near death experience, I was hearing GOD call me. I was hearing disemobidied voices saying they need to find someone to talk to me. They got you to talk to me. I was hearing your voice and you were explaining the meaning of life to me. but now that I'm healthy again, I don't remember exactly what you told me. I'm being serious. it was a crazy near death experience.

To answer your question, GOD does exist. why do good people suffer? well, according to the bible, when adam and eve sinned. they let sin into the world and all of us have suffered. back then, people were immortal by eating the fruit from the tree of life. but their sin by disobeying GOD, let all mankind suffer. that's how I understand it.


Hey! How have you been? What's new? Where you living now? Are you still in Tennessee?

Wow you had an NDE? What kind of accident led to it?

So you heard my voice during your NDE? What did it sound like? What did I say? Perhaps my higher self was talking to you?

How would you compare the NDE to a dream? Are they alike or unalike? What did you see during your NDE? Maybe you can file it at the NDERF at www.nderf.org

I know, that's the standard Christian answer to the question. But I'm saying it doesn't make sense and doesn't add up and there isn't a valid reason to accept it as true.
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
 
Posts: 24283
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:16 pm

Oh golly. This one again! It's been a while for me!

Postby Squirrel » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:22 am

Or you could simply see how liberating on the mind a fire can be. Especially when you burn something. I don't know, like a bible? The koran? Mormon? Catholic? Me and my friends who come from many faiths joined in friendship and one day decided "why keep these things around?" All they do is bring back bad memories. So we burned them all and got drunk. It was a good time. I reccomend it. Not because I am juvenile or obnoxious (which I freely admit. I will probably remain this way well after I turn 40.) but simply because it is a cultural perhaps traditional way of separating yourself from something. I'm not so sure I would have had the same satisfaction by shotputting the bible I had into the sea. I have valid logic as well, I just don't have the time to write it. I merely wanted to post something to let people know I'm still alive and hating the freaking Afghanistan heat.
"So that's the only game we have? When they're drunk?"
Squirrel
Freshman Poster
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: US Kansas

Re: Can an all-good/all-powerful God allow evil/suffering?

Postby Winston » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:35 am

In the original Star Trek episode called, "The Enemy Within" a transporter malfunction creates two Captain Kirks, one good and docile, the other evil, aggressive and uncontrollable. After a while, Spock and Mccoy realize that Kirk cannot survive as half a man, he needs both his good and evil side. So they have the transporter meld them back together at the end.

The moral is that man is both good and evil and needs both sides to live and function. Now, since man was made in the image of God, as the Bible says, it makes sense then that God would also be compromised of both good and evil qualities. Right? Wouldnt that logically follow?

Even in Genesis, after the fall of man, God says, "Behold man has become like us, knowing good and evil." So if man in his fallen state of good and evil has become like God, then that directly implies that God is a mixture of good and evil too. Hence not perfect.
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.

Don't forget my HA Grand Ebook and Dating Sites!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
 
Posts: 24283
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:16 pm

Re: Can an all-good/all-powerful God allow evil/suffering?

Postby Kradmelder » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:52 am

You are thinking too much again Winston. Leave the thinking for the horses; they have bigger heads :lol:

I wouldn't necessarily make the connection God has an evil side. Even in Eden God created the serpent and the tree of knowledge. He let Eve take the bite and convince Adam.

He gave man the free will to make the choice. You can know about evil and not have that yourself. Like I can know about jews and not be jewish. I can know about whores but not visit them or be one myself etc.

More like the moral of the story is don't listen to women :lol: . Or you don't get much for a rib. Man should have rather given a testicle. :lol:
User avatar
Kradmelder
Experienced Poster
 
Posts: 1568
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:59 pm

Previous

Return to Religion and Spirituality

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest