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Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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TruthSeeker
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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » December 10th, 2018, 3:46 pm

Adama, I mean Neo - Winston accepted Christ as a young boy in 1983. Does that mean that he's saved for good no matter what he does now? Does that mean that according to John 10:28 Jesus has given him eternal life and he will never perish and no one can pluck him out of His hand?

So according to your definition, Winston is saved right because he accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour and he believed on Him as a young boy. Is that right?




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Neo
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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » December 10th, 2018, 5:48 pm

TruthSeeker wrote:
December 10th, 2018, 3:46 pm
Neo - Winston accepted Christ as a young boy in 1983. Does that mean that he's saved for good no matter what he does now? Does that mean that according to John 10:28 Jesus has given him eternal life and he will never perish and no one can pluck him out of His hand?

So according to your definition, Winston is saved right because he accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour and he believed on Him as a young boy. Is that right?
At first I was going to ignore your question, but since it is about salvation, I will attempt an answer. Keep in mind, it is only because you think salvation includes work that you ask this.

If you were to go back to 2015, it is clear that Winston had no idea that to be saved all a person has to do is believe in Christ. He held to every false gospel. I specifically remember he believed that salvation comes from simply loving one another (and denying the book of John, saying John is the only book that says believe, while the other three gospels say it differently according to him). In other words, he never believed by faith alone, but believed in everything else that doesn't save.

Even today you can see that he believes in many things, including "faith + works" [same as you I believe] (Why the Bible teaches a Salvation by WORKS, NOT by Faith Alone! viewtopic.php?f=15&t=37308 ), as you can see from a thread on this subforum by that title. A person who genuinely got saved would not waver like this.

Eternal security and once saved always saved are true, because salvation is the free gift of God, and Christ said He would not cast anyone out for any reason (in no wise cast out). Salvation is unearned and unmerited. Certain people will just never receive faith in Christ from God (because faith comes from God), and therefore they will not receive salvation.

Continually preaching against Christ, continually refusing to believe in the simplicity of salvation by faith alone (always refusing the true gospel of salvation), inverting the roles of God and Satan, ascribing evil characteristics to God, preaching Gnosticism and witchcraft, and continually denying the existence or divinity of Jesus Christ, are all ways by which a person can cut himself off from salvation.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » December 10th, 2018, 6:28 pm

Winston wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 4:48 pm
Well I officially accepted Christ in 1983 at Fremont Christian summer school. I was invited to during chapel. So I did that part. Anyone can do that. It only takes 5 minutes. Didn't you read my story and testimony? But as I mentioned, that's American Evangelical Christianity, not traditional Christianity or original Christianity, and not literal truth either. You keep forgetting that, because fundamentalism has hijacked your mind. I know because I used to be a fundamentalist too, so I know how your mind works and thinks. It's only literal truth in your mind, not in reality, especially other people's reality.
It's more likely that you thought you got saved, but that never happened. A saved person has the Holy Ghost, which reveals the truth to them.

There are lots of "Christians" who have missed the mark. They think they are Christian but they are not, because they've fallen into a trap of lies and for a false plan of salvation. Probably most Christians are deceived and have fallen for deceptions that condemn their souls. Most will never know they are not saved until the moment they meet God.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » December 10th, 2018, 8:37 pm

A quick summary of true and false salvation plans:

True Christianity says this: Salvation comes by believing that Jesus is the Son of God (i.e. The Messiah, the Christ, the Redeemer, The Savior: it is the work of God, the Messiah to save the people from their sins, by Him keeping all the commandments which is why salvation is without works and then by Him paying the penalty for ours sins, which is why we don't pay the eternal penalty ourselves). Salvation is the free gift of God by grace through faith in Jesus, it is eternal and can't be lost for any reason, it is not by works. It is the only religion of all the religions in which salvation is completely by faith alone. All other religions are by works or a combination of faith and works.

False Christianity says many things including:
1. Salvation is by faith in Christ + keeping the commandments to the best of your ability. (Therefore salvation can be lost cause it's by works.)
2. Salvation is by keeping the commandments. (Therefore salvation can be lost cause it's by works.)
3. Jesus is the son of God but not one with God and the Holy Ghost, i.e. Jesus is a created being, like angels and men, not divine. (Jehovah's False Witnesses).
4. Salvation is by faith plus keeping sacraments, such as baptism, communion/ Eucharist , matrimony, church attendance, confession of sins, etc.
5. Salvation is by faith alone, but works are inserted through the side door by calling works "repentance", when the only repentance needed is changing our minds from false belief or none belief to belief in Christ. Turning from sin to keep the commandments is work, making Faith + repentance a false gospel of faith + works.
6. Then there's the complete blasphemy of Gnosticism, in which the roles of God and Satan are inverted, which should not be called Christianity but is by some confused people.

Then there are other religions:
1. Buddhism teaches salvation entirely by works: By Karma a person can become his own Christ and exalt himself to nirvana and bliss.
2. Islam teaches repentance (works because this is turning from sin to keep the commandments) and trusting on God's mercy, but there is no redeemer who paid the penalty or did any works for them. This too is work salvation.
3. Satanism in which every person is his own redeemer.

Now a person should be able to see, that work salvation is essentially satanism, in which the person becomes their own personal redeemer. Work salvation in any form denies Christ.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » December 10th, 2018, 10:44 pm

@Neo But what if Winston as a boy received Christ with a genuine sincere heart of faith? What if he believed on Jesus Christ and was at that moment saved? You negate it by saying he was not really saved in the first place but what if he was?

What if after he was saved he became confused and began to question? Doesn't God tell us to prove all things?

You're contradicting yourself because you're saying a person can believe and be saved and then cut themselves off from salvation. That's not once saved always saved.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » December 10th, 2018, 11:58 pm

TruthSeeker wrote:
December 10th, 2018, 10:44 pm
@Neo But what if Winston as a boy received Christ with a genuine sincere heart of faith? What if he believed on Jesus Christ and was at that moment saved? You negate it by saying he was not really saved in the first place but what if he was?

What if after he was saved he became confused and began to question? Doesn't God tell us to prove all things?

You're contradicting yourself because you're saying a person can believe and be saved and then cut themselves off from salvation. That's not once saved always saved.
If you don't understand it by now, then there is no explanation I could write that could give you understanding. That's it from me to you.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » December 11th, 2018, 12:08 pm

Winston wrote:
December 9th, 2018, 4:48 pm
Well I officially accepted Christ in 1983 at Fremont Christian summer school. I was invited to during chapel. So I did that part. Anyone can do that. It only takes 5 minutes. Didn't you read my story and testimony? But as I mentioned, that's American Evangelical Christianity, not traditional Christianity or original Christianity, and not literal truth either. You keep forgetting that, because fundamentalism has hijacked your mind. I know because I used to be a fundamentalist too, so I know how your mind works and thinks. It's only literal truth in your mind, not in reality, especially other people's reality.
@Winston Neo is challenging your conversion experience. When you accepted Christ, did you genuinly believe in Jesus? Because Neo has stated all you have to do is believe and you will be saved forever and can never be lost. He is saying that moment you accepted Christ in 1983 you were not sincere so it doesn't count. I just want to clarify here. Were you genuine and sincere at that moment in the chapel?

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » December 11th, 2018, 1:01 pm

Neo wrote:
December 10th, 2018, 11:58 pm
If you don't understand it by now, then there is no explanation I could write that could give you understanding. That's it from me to you.
You're challenging his conversion experience. You're saying it was not real, but it's not you who determines whether Winston was sincere when he received Christ, it's God. Thank goodness for that.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » December 11th, 2018, 4:02 pm

TruthSeeker wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 12:08 pm
@Winston Neo is challenging your conversion experience. When you accepted Christ, did you genuinly believe in Jesus? Because Neo has stated all you have to do is believe and you will be saved forever and can never be lost. He is saying that moment you accepted Christ in 1983 you were not sincere so it doesn't count. I just want to clarify here. Were you genuine and sincere at that moment in the chapel?
It's clear that you don't accept the simplicity of believe to be saved. The Bible supports it everywhere, starting with Genesis 15:6 . Many people think God has made things much more complex than that, probably because they can't believe in Christ. Not everyone can be saved, and many so called Christians will find out in the end, that they were never saved, because they never believed, and they never believed because they were never able to come to the right conclusion.

Is there such a thing as a Christian with the Holy Ghost who denies Christ's divinity and birth? Is there a Christian with the Holy Ghost who preaches Gnosticism? Is there a Christian with the Holy Ghost who believes that Satan was doing a natural thing by rebelling against God and deceiving Eve? Is there a Christian with the Holy Ghost who ascribes bad characteristics to God? Who thinks God is not all good and completely righteous? Who thinks that God is unfair? People who are like this do not have the Holy Ghost dwelling inside them. Such speech is not compatible with someone who's gotten saved at any age.

Who blasphemes God to such a degree? A person with the Holy Ghost, which never leaves even if the believer falls astray, would not be doing this. It's really clear.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » December 11th, 2018, 4:07 pm

I'm faith + works. Good works demonstrate or follow a true faith. They are the fruit of a genuine faith.

I am also predestination but that is another matter.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » December 11th, 2018, 4:10 pm

TruthSeeker wrote:
December 11th, 2018, 4:07 pm
I'm faith + works. Good works demonstrate or follow a true faith. They are the fruit of a genuine faith.

I am also predestination but that is another matter.
Yes, and that explains why you're unable to understand the gospel and why you stand against it. Only those who believe by faith alone receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. You really have no idea what you're doing. But it should be interesting to watch on the day.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » December 11th, 2018, 4:17 pm

Ah wonderful. I have no problem with anything God does. He does all things well.

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Neo
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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » December 11th, 2018, 4:45 pm

How would a person know if a preacher or pastor is not saved? One way is if they get up on the pulpit and then deny that Jesus is the Messiah. If a pastor got up and started preaching that Jesus is not divine, or that He isn't the Son of God, or that Jesus is not the Messiah, it would be clear to almost everyone with a sound mind, that that pastor is a false prophet. It is crystal clear.

A person doesn't have to be a pastor to see that by the things they say they aren't saved.

A person is not saved by his own works. If a person believes trusting in his own works saves him, he is essentially trusting in his own righteousness. Seeing as the person is not Christ, it makes no sense for a person to trust in his own righteousness, because only the righteousness of Christ can save us, as He kept all the commandments for us, which is why salvation is without works. Good works are required, as long as the person doesn't trust on them for salvation. Good works and keeping the commandments are to please God. Good works do not save because salvation is unearned, a gift, and free, simply for our faith in Christ (by grace), as it is explained everywhere. Christ has done all the work to save us, which is why He is the Christ. The Christ does the saving, not the person.

When James says faith is dead without works, he is essentially just saying that the person's faith is unprofitable if they are not doing good works. He isn't saying the person is unsaved. He is just saying they are not doing any good works to benefit himself or others. In addition, James makes mention that Abraham believed and was counted righteous in that same chapter.

Of course some people will simply be unable to believe that salvation is simply by faith without works (including the side door of "repentance"). These people only will demonstrate that they are unable to believe and that the Holy Ghost has not imparted understanding to them.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » December 11th, 2018, 9:58 pm

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » December 11th, 2018, 10:39 pm

John 6:47 KJV
[47] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Acts 16:30-31 KJV
[30] And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1 John 5:13 KJV
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Yes, that is all. Just believe in the Lord: that He is the Son of God and that He has done all the work to save you.

Most people know that Christ died for our sins, but what they always forget is just as important. That is that He also kept all the commandments of God. He fulfilled the entirety of the law. By completing all the commandments of God, He thereby overcame and conquered the commandments for everyone to be saved. He has overcome the law. All we must do is believe in Him! This is why salvation is not by works.

Romans 10:4 KJV For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Do you still think there must be some works? There aren't any. Salvation is outside the commandments:

Romans 3 KJV
[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Salvation is by faith alone, outside of keeping the commandments:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

It is the free gift of God to all those who believe in His Son:

Romans 6:23 KJV
[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 3:24 KJV Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

All you must do is believe. Then you're saved from that moment.

Salvation can never be lost:

John 6:37 KJV
[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 10:28 KJV
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Ephesians 4:30 KJV
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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