The Mormons, Joseph Smith, & Meadows Massacre Incident

[Winston]

Btw have you guys noticed that Mormons tend to have a "wholesome glow" about them? It's something even most Christians don't have. Why is that? This Mormon man doing these interviews about Mormon History and the Meadows Massacre on his GospelTangent channel has that wholesome glow on his face too. Take a look at his playlist here to see what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... KdX1zYgt_Y

[MrMan]

Btw why were the Mormons kicked out of Missouri and Illinois? Why didnt everyone coexist with them peacefully with freedom of religion?

From what I have read, Joseph Smith likely had girls and women 'spiritually marry' him, including married women whose legal husbands he would send away on missions. He kept these secret, but he may have had some of his older 'spiritual wives' help recruit other ones for him. This practice became more open under Brigham Young, instead of a secret.

At one point, some people detained Joseph Smith and nearly talked a doctor friend of his into castrating him. There was probably some offense that had the crowds riled up. I wonder if some of the ones riled up against him were actually part of his own movement. The sexual stuff and the 'spiritual marriage' stuff were not public doctrine. He was mayor. A newspaper printed something against him that he did not like. He ended up declaring martial law. The territory government (it wasn't a state yet) had him arrested, and after they had him informed him the charge was treason for declaring martial law as he did. He was imprisoned-- detained in a house. His supporters got a pistol to him. A mob gathered outside, probably coming for him maybe for some of the offenses he had been accused of. He was shooting at the crowd and fell as he was trying to escape from a second story window.

[Winston]

Btw why were the Mormons kicked out of Missouri and Illinois? Why didnt everyone coexist with them peacefully with freedom of religion?

From what I have read, Joseph Smith likely had girls and women 'spiritually marry' him, including married women whose legal husbands he would send away on missions. He kept these secret, but he may have had some of his older 'spiritual wives' help recruit other ones for him. This practice became more open under Brigham Young, instead of a secret.

At one point, some people detained Joseph Smith and nearly talked a doctor friend of his into castrating him. There was probably some offense that had the crowds riled up. I wonder if some of the ones riled up against him were actually part of his own movement. The sexual stuff and the 'spiritual marriage' stuff were not public doctrine. He was mayor. A newspaper printed something against him that he did not like. He ended up declaring martial law. The territory government (it wasn't a state yet) had him arrested, and after they had him informed him the charge was treason for declaring martial law as he did. He was imprisoned-- detained in a house. His supporters got a pistol to him. A mob gathered outside, probably coming for him maybe for some of the offenses he had been accused of. He was shooting at the crowd and fell as he was trying to escape from a second story window.

That makes more sense. I saw a PBS documentary about the Mormons and it mentioned that 10 of Joseph Smith's 30 wives were already married. That will anger many men no doubt. But i don't think that's the reason so many hated him and wanted to kill him. There's got to be more than that. He must have been a psychological threat to people too. Mormons don't answer this obvious question though when you ask them about it. It's as if they think Joseph Smith is a saint and has never done anything wrong.

I also heard that when the mob was outside, he shouted the Freemasonic distress call, hoping some of them that were Masons would help him, but they didn't. So sometimes Masons will betray other Masons if they hate them enough. Smith was only a 3rd degree Mason and joined most likely because he was hoping they would help protect him, but they didn't.

@fschmidt what's your take on Mormonism and Joseph Smith? Doesn't it contain the good values that you like?

[jerryrigged]

Winston, as a COMPLETELY IMPERFECT in every way shape and form Christian, I just can't grapple my mind around the idea that we will all become Gods or even God-like in the afterlife. Yes, this is what Mormons actually believe.

Also, converted Mormons are not treated the same as people born in the Mormon faith. You'd likely be asked to marry another convert, if you are "lucky" to marry at all, in their church. People like us with dating difficulties would probably be told (and they are right about this) that celibacy is a saintly thing, and that it's nothing to be ashamed of.

Are Mormon women pretty and traditional? Yes, they sure are. But I think there is some faulty notion among many of this forum that if they just become a Mormon they're going to get some cute blonde mormon trad wife.... I don't think its going to happen to be quite frank with you. Not likely, anyway. Mormons are also usually very rich and people looking to move to the third world for a better love life and social life usually aren't rich. They're just lower middle class like I am and trying to make the best with the money they do have. I'm meandering off topic now but I think you see where I am going.

Its terrible the way the early Mormon church was treated in this country. I agree totally. Puritans and their descendents, although they came here for the religious freedom American offered, weren't too keen to allow other people to practice their own religious freedom. America has a hell of a lot of problems in it's history. A hell of a lot.

[jerryrigged]

Btw why were the Mormons kicked out of Missouri and Illinois? Why didnt everyone coexist with them peacefully with freedom of religion?

From what I have read, Joseph Smith likely had girls and women 'spiritually marry' him, including married women whose legal husbands he would send away on missions. He kept these secret, but he may have had some of his older 'spiritual wives' help recruit other ones for him. This practice became more open under Brigham Young, instead of a secret.

At one point, some people detained Joseph Smith and nearly talked a doctor friend of his into castrating him. There was probably some offense that had the crowds riled up. I wonder if some of the ones riled up against him were actually part of his own movement. The sexual stuff and the 'spiritual marriage' stuff were not public doctrine. He was mayor. A newspaper printed something against him that he did not like. He ended up declaring martial law. The territory government (it wasn't a state yet) had him arrested, and after they had him informed him the charge was treason for declaring martial law as he did. He was imprisoned-- detained in a house. His supporters got a pistol to him. A mob gathered outside, probably coming for him maybe for some of the offenses he had been accused of. He was shooting at the crowd and fell as he was trying to escape from a second story window.

That makes more sense. I saw a PBS documentary about the Mormons and it mentioned that 10 of Joseph Smith's 30 wives were already married. That will anger many men no doubt. But i don't think that's the reason so many hated him and wanted to kill him. There's got to be more than that. He must have been a psychological threat to people too. Mormons don't answer this obvious question though when you ask them about it. It's as if they think Joseph Smith is a saint and has never done anything wrong.

I also heard that when the mob was outside, he shouted the Freemasonic distress call, hoping some of them that were Masons would help him, but they didn't. So sometimes Masons will betray other Masons if they hate them enough. Smith was only a 3rd degree Mason and joined most likely because he was hoping they would help protect him, but they didn't.

@fschmidt what's your take on Mormonism and Joseph Smith? Doesn't it contain the good values that you like?

Right. He was basically a David Koresh before his time. A real strange agent who believed in some really heretical stuff and probably a cult leader. DId the early Mormon church deserve the treatment they got? The brutality? The murder? Repression? No.

**What the later Mormons did with the Native Americans etc was obviously wrong. But I am not talking about that. I am talking about while Smith was still alive.

[Winston]

Winston, as a COMPLETELY IMPERFECT in every way shape and form Christian, I just can't grapple my mind around the idea that we will all become Gods or even God-like in the afterlife. Yes, this is what Mormons actually believe.

Also, converted Mormons are not treated the same as people born in the Mormon faith. You'd likely be asked to marry another convert, if you are "lucky" to marry at all, in their church. People like us with dating difficulties would probably be told (and they are right about this) that celibacy is a saintly thing, and that it's nothing to be ashamed of.

Are Mormon women pretty and traditional? Yes, they sure are. But I think there is some faulty notion among many of this forum that if they just become a Mormon they're going to get some cute blonde mormon trad wife.... I don't think its going to happen to be quite frank with you. Not likely, anyway. Mormons are also usually very rich and people looking to move to the third world for a better love life and social life usually aren't rich. They're just lower middle class like I am and trying to make the best with the money they do have. I'm meandering off topic now but I think you see where I am going.

Its terrible the way the early Mormon church was treated in this country. I agree totally. Puritans and their descendents, although they came here for the religious freedom American offered, weren't too keen to allow other people to practice their own religious freedom. America has a hell of a lot of problems in it's history. A hell of a lot.

Do you mean the Mormon church tells you to be single if you are ugly or uncool? I highly doubt that. In the PBS documentary I saw on Mormonism they said that the Church only tells you to be single if you are gay and cannot be straight. Otherwise they encourage everyone to get married to be normal and follow God's commandments. I highly doubt that it would tell you that if you are ugly to be single. Especially since most people are not attractive. Isn't it more likely that if you are ugly they will match you with a female that is ugly too? Or if you are socially impaired with aspergers, they will match you with another aspie?

Keep in mind that not everyone here is a loser. Some are just nice guys who aren't seen as "cool" in American culture, or nerdy/dorky/eccentric types. So if you are just a nice guy who isn't a bad boy, I'm sure the Mormons won't hold that against you. I'm sure they see being nice as a good thing, as long as you are a good Mormon of course. So I doubt that the Mormon church would see you as a loser just because you are a nice guy. Their matrix is different from degenerate American culture. I'm sure you know that. However, most likely since we are freethinkers who think for ourselves, we would not be suited for Mormonism anyway, because it's not a religion that allows freethought. You gotta remember that most people are hollow with no inner life and like to be told what to do and what to think. That's why authoritarian religions appeal to them.

Does the Mormon church arrange your marriage for you? Or do they let you choose your own partner? Or something in the middle? Like they recommend who you should marry, but do not force it?

Btw, saying that we will becomes gods in the afterlife is not unusual or the teachings of a cult. Eastern religions have always taught that if you ascend and have lots of good karma, you will become a higher deity or god. But this doesn't mean you will become an all powerful God like portrayed in Christianity. They see gods as just higher level beings who have ascended, not as all powerful beings. Only Christianity and Islam puts you down and tells you you are unworthy and can never be a god. So that Mormon teaching is not that unusual. Even New Age teachings say that we can ascend to higher dimensions and become gods. Many ancient religions also teach that the stars in the sky are gods who have ascended and are watching over us.

Btw we have a long thread on Utah Mormon girls if you wanna see it. A number of posters here who are ex-Mormon have weighed in on it.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19114

[Taco]

“As man now is, God once was:” “As God now is, man may be.” - President Lorenzo Snow (Mormon Prophet)

Like all American women, LDS women from Utah are difficult to get along with. I don't recommend dating them.

Mormons are free to marry whoever they want.

Provo Utah is #1

[jerryrigged]

Winston, as a COMPLETELY IMPERFECT in every way shape and form Christian, I just can't grapple my mind around the idea that we will all become Gods or even God-like in the afterlife. Yes, this is what Mormons actually believe.

Also, converted Mormons are not treated the same as people born in the Mormon faith. You'd likely be asked to marry another convert, if you are "lucky" to marry at all, in their church. People like us with dating difficulties would probably be told (and they are right about this) that celibacy is a saintly thing, and that it's nothing to be ashamed of.

Are Mormon women pretty and traditional? Yes, they sure are. But I think there is some faulty notion among many of this forum that if they just become a Mormon they're going to get some cute blonde mormon trad wife.... I don't think its going to happen to be quite frank with you. Not likely, anyway. Mormons are also usually very rich and people looking to move to the third world for a better love life and social life usually aren't rich. They're just lower middle class like I am and trying to make the best with the money they do have. I'm meandering off topic now but I think you see where I am going.

Its terrible the way the early Mormon church was treated in this country. I agree totally. Puritans and their descendents, although they came here for the religious freedom American offered, weren't too keen to allow other people to practice their own religious freedom. America has a hell of a lot of problems in it's history. A hell of a lot.

Do you mean the Mormon church tells you to be single if you are ugly or uncool? I highly doubt that. In the PBS documentary I saw on Mormonism they said that the Church only tells you to be single if you are gay and cannot be straight. Otherwise they encourage everyone to get married to be normal and follow God's commandments. I highly doubt that it would tell you that if you are ugly to be single. Especially since most people are not attractive. Isn't it more likely that if you are ugly they will match you with a female that is ugly too? Or if you are socially impaired with aspergers, they will match you with another aspie?

Thanks Winston. From what I understand Mormons kind of date like regular people but their parents have a lot of sway in who they choose in the end to marry. I think its the moonies who really do the matchmaking for you. I thought about it but then decided that what they preach over there is just too heretical for me. I don't think Mormons tell everyone to be single but lets be frank, there is NOT someone out there for everyone. Including me man. Including me. I had to go to Southeast Asia to go on my first dates. I failed miserably in my teens and twenties. Not enough money, that was always my biggest problem. But lets face it, I'm also very shrimpy. My shrimpyness is excused a bit more over in Thailand, but I am still seen as a shrimp. Maybe just an "average shrimp" instead of a "major shrimp" like I am in the USA. They still expect farang guys to be big like almost all farang guys are. Not Isan Thai size. Anyway, I digress. The Mormons are a close knit group. They are always looking to convert people, but they have a rank and file society. I don't think its easy for a fresh convert to come in and date up good looking mormon prospective tradwives. Maybe after a few years service in the church. Maybe. And its probably like that with any close knit religious group.

[MrMan]

Btw why were the Mormons kicked out of Missouri and Illinois? Why didnt everyone coexist with them peacefully with freedom of religion?

From what I have read, Joseph Smith likely had girls and women 'spiritually marry' him, including married women whose legal husbands he would send away on missions. He kept these secret, but he may have had some of his older 'spiritual wives' help recruit other ones for him. This practice became more open under Brigham Young, instead of a secret.

At one point, some people detained Joseph Smith and nearly talked a doctor friend of his into castrating him. There was probably some offense that had the crowds riled up. I wonder if some of the ones riled up against him were actually part of his own movement. The sexual stuff and the 'spiritual marriage' stuff were not public doctrine. He was mayor. A newspaper printed something against him that he did not like. He ended up declaring martial law. The territory government (it wasn't a state yet) had him arrested, and after they had him informed him the charge was treason for declaring martial law as he did. He was imprisoned-- detained in a house. His supporters got a pistol to him. A mob gathered outside, probably coming for him maybe for some of the offenses he had been accused of. He was shooting at the crowd and fell as he was trying to escape from a second story window.

That makes more sense. I saw a PBS documentary about the Mormons and it mentioned that 10 of Joseph Smith's 30 wives were already married. That will anger many men no doubt. But i don't think that's the reason so many hated him and wanted to kill him. There's got to be more than that. He must have been a psychological threat to people too. Mormons don't answer this obvious question though when you ask them about it. It's as if they think Joseph Smith is a saint and has never done anything wrong.

I also heard that when the mob was outside, he shouted the Freemasonic distress call, hoping some of them that were Masons would help him, but they didn't. So sometimes Masons will betray other Masons if they hate them enough. Smith was only a 3rd degree Mason and joined most likely because he was hoping they would help protect him, but they didn't.

@fschmidt what's your take on Mormonism and Joseph Smith? Doesn't it contain the good values that you like?

He was a cult leader who had a large following. He had declared martial law, and shut down a printing press after it printed some things about him that he did not like. So, yeah, I can see why they might have saw him as a threat to their safety.

I wouldn't rule out the idea that there might have been some disenchanted Mormons in the group who thought they were following a pious prophet who had followed him around as they were persecuted, only to find out about some of his 'marriages' and such, some of the same people who wanted to castrate him outside of that girl's house, but I don't have any specific evidence for that.

[MrMan]

Also, converted Mormons are not treated the same as people born in the Mormon faith. You'd likely be asked to marry another convert, if you are "lucky" to marry at all, in their church. People like us with dating difficulties would probably be told (and they are right about this) that celibacy is a saintly thing, and that it's nothing to be ashamed of.

Are you Asian like your avatar? The Book of Mormon mentions 'white and delightsome' people. Mormons have lessoned prejudice against Blacks over time. Blacks were supposed to have been neutral instead of siding with the pre-incarnate Mormon Jesus against the Mormon Lucifer. If I remember right, Smith wrote about some of the children of Israel moving to what is now the USA, fighting wars. The good guys were white. The bad guys turned dark skin. There is a theory based on Smith's writings that some of the Polynesians may be descendants of these people, so they have used that to convert people out there to Mormonism, too. Anyway, I know there are Mormons in Asia now, but I wonder with Anglo 'white and delightsome' Mormons in Utah would be keen on their kids marrying less white partners.

Are Mormon women pretty and traditional? Yes, they sure are. But I think there is some faulty notion among many of this forum that if they just become a Mormon they're going to get some cute blonde mormon trad wife.... I don't think its going to happen to be quite frank with you. Not likely, anyway. Mormons are also usually very rich and people looking to move to the third world for a better love life and social life usually aren't rich. They're just lower middle class like I am and trying to make the best with the money they do have. I'm meandering off topic now but I think you see where I am going.

My understanding of Mormonism is that it isn't as negative toward divorce as traditional Christianity is. Now, they have their temple marriages, which are supposed to carry over into the afterlife-- which is not in line with what the Bible teaches for resurrected followers of Christ. Mormonism has a tradition of being really messed up when it comes to marriage and family, with cult leaders in the 1800's spiritually 'marrying' other men's wives. It would be a bad bet for a non-Mormon to marry a Mormon girl to get a conservative young woman. Even if he converted, then he'd realize he's stuck in this weird religious culture. If he doesn't get along with his wife, her family might encourage her to divorce. I understand why a man who fantasizes about having a harem might want to joint one of the offshoots, but he'd have to get in good with the 'prophet' to get assigned a harem (partly of teenaged underaged girls), and they'd steal his wives away if he didn't tow the line. He might be getting second-hand wives they stole from someone else if he were assigned a harem, too.

Some Mormons are rich. But someone has to work at the Dairy Queen drive through in Utah. They have people with all kinds of income levels. A lot of Mormons do send their kids to third world countries on their Mormon missions.

Its terrible the way the early Mormon church was treated in this country.

There were a lot of atrocities, but it went both ways. A friend of mine said his ancestors were in a wagon train to the Oregon territory, who decided to go south to avoid to Rockies. They went through Utah. He said the Mormons sent an Indian tribe to attack them. They had the wagons in a circle, shooting at the Indians. Then, the white Mormons came. The settlers must have been happy to see other white people, but they started massacring the settlers. They took the children survivors. He said his ancestor was a teenage boy, assigned to a family to raise him. The boy stole a horse in the spring to escape and was severely punished for it. Then took another one later, reported what had happened, and the US army got word of it. Mormonism was a dangerous cult, also. The US government allowed Utah to join the US if it dropped polygamy, which it did officially, though a lot of Mormons of that generation continued it. Splinter groups formed that did not agree with their decision, led by their own 'prophet', who carried on in some ways an older form of the Mormonism cult.

I agree totally. Puritans and their descendents, although they came here for the religious freedom American offered, weren't too keen to allow other people to practice their own religious freedom. America has a hell of a lot of problems in it's history. A hell of a lot.

[Winston]

Wow MrMan, how do you know so much about Mormonism? Why would you study a religion you don't agree with? Out of curiosity or just to try to understand "your enemy"?

What was the appeal of Joseph Smith? Why did he gain so many converts? What did he offer people that the normal church could not? Historians don't really explain that.

Yes they did teach that blacks fought on the side of Lucifer during the war with Christ before the Earth was created. But they abandoned that in 1978 because it was too racist. So they have changed a lot over the years to suit modern culture. There are fringe pockets of Mormon fundamentalists though who still live in isolated towns and practice polygamy. I saw it on PBS. The US government doesn't usually arrest them unless they feel like it. It's up to their arbitrary discretion.

The incident you refer to is the Meadows Massacre, which I posted about above, and some videos about too. But you gotta understand that Mormons were not violent at first. They only got that way later. Remember that when they were in Missouri, there was an incident at Haun's Mill where a mob came and shot at the Mormons and killed 17 of them. The men who did it were never arrested. Because the governor wanted to wipe them out. So they still wanted revenge for that.

I heard the incident that sparked the Meadows Massacre was when one of their missionaries was killed in Arkansas. Since that wagon train was from Arkansas, they wanted to revenge and believed that those who murdered their missionary were related to the wagon train. The local folks in Utah at the time, believed that's what triggered the massacre. It could also be that Brigham Young believed that he received a divine command from God to massacre the wagon train because he believed some of those who murdered Joseph Smith were on it. Historian Will Bagley wrote a book about it and implicated Brigham Young through some of his cryptic words. For example, when a memorial was created for the massacre victims, Brigham Young said in a consecration over it: "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. And I have taken a little." This indicated revenge.

Also, the Mormons were paranoid at the time because they believed that President Bucanan was about to send the US Army out to wipe them out. So they were on edge too.

So you gotta take all that into consideration. It could also be that Brigham Young received some supernatural visitation or revelation from higher forces that told him that those who killed Joseph Smith were on the wagon train, and that God gave him the green light to go ahead and kill them in revenge. Or at least he believed he did. Who knows. Since Young and Smith did receive periodic divine revelations, then that is a possibility I think. If so, that may be why he gave the order to kill them all when the wagon train was near Salt Lake City, according to historian Will Bagley.

You also gotta remember that in the 1800s Americans were wild and trigger happy, not like the pacifist wusses they are today. They didn't have cell phones and computers and TV to keep them distracted and occupied. So they were wild and trigger happy. Also killing people back then wasn't the taboo that it is now. It was bad of course, but it was a common thing people did. Especially in the wild west where people were wild and trigger happy.

Btw, why was Joseph Smith arrested for declaring martial law? As mayor wasn't that in his right? And did those who arrest him plan to have him killed by a mob? Was it all planned or a spontaneous event? Obviously they had a bias against him, and were looking for some excuse to arrest him. People are very subjective and if they don't like you, they find an excuse to get rid of you, but the excuse isn't the real reason, just the trigger they need to do what they want. So again, why did they dislike him so much that they had to kill him? That must be an extreme dislike, not just an aversion.

[Winston]

Great quote by H.L. Mencken:

"Morality is doing right no matter what you are told.
RELIGION is doing what you are told no matter what is right."

Article by Will Bagley about the Meadows Massacre.

https://www.historynet.com/mountain-meadows-massacre

From a descendant of Brigham Young about the Meadows Massacre.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/mmm ... ecrets.htm

@Taco this incriminating paragraph from the Bagley article above clearly implicates Brigham Young.

In May 1861, after destroying the monument the U.S. Army raised over the graves of the victims in 1859, Young told Lee that those “used up at the Mountain Meadows were the Fathers, Mothe[rs], Bros., Sisters & connections of those that Murdered the Prophets; they merited their fate, & the only thing that ever troubled him was the lives of the Women & children, but that under the circumstances [this] could not be avoided.” Lee’s story is difficult to challenge, since a Mormon apostle confirmed the quote that he ascribed to the prophet: “When he came to the Monument that contained their Bones, he made this remark, Vengence is Mine Saith the Lord, & I have taken a litle of it.”

[Winston]

Wow is this true? It sounds like a spooky conspiracy theory, but since by definition if something is a secret, then you wouldn't know about it right? Could this be true?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NufxIBNdDo

Amber Dawn
6 months ago (edited)

I’m only 30 mins into the video so far and will continue to listen till the end. I value the information so far and time you’ve put into this. I just wanted to mention a few things that might give people a bigger picture perspective about a few things talked about here.

1. Brigham Young was a Free Mason posing as a “Mormon”. As were several other “members”.

2. Free Mason’s were also infiltrated long ago by secret societies with dark agendas. Brigham was one of these secret members.

3. Mason’s believe that Jesus Christ’s (Yeshua) was born on September 11. Hence why the massacre completed on Sept 11. (Just like the 9/11 event in 2001). They believe in rituals and blood sacrifices to insult God and Yeshua as well as to appease who they really worship.

4. These evil people are also heavily into child trafficking and rape (even marrying very young, and hiding it.) Makes sense that they would take the children under age seven.

To conclude: Not all members were evil or from these secret societies. Many were. So you have people that are believing what they are told and trying to “do the right thing” ( many of them just doing what they can to be good people). And then you have a dark underbelly of the church that do evil things to this day.

[Winston]

Wow MrMan, how do you explain this? Did Joseph Smith predict when and where the Civil War would begin? Does this mean Joseph Smith had divine revelation? If so, why didn't God protect him? Or protect any of his prophets in the Bible?

"One of the most famous prophecies of Joseph Smith is the Civil War prophecy, in which Joseph predicted the Civil War would start in South Carolina. When that happened two decades later, how did that affect LDS apocalyptic thought? Dr. Christopher Blythe will let us know the answer. Check out our conversation…."

[Taco]

The Prophecies of Joseph Smith is a well-written biography which documents the major events in Joseph’s life. 141 prophecies made by Joseph Smith, 40 prophecies about him made by other people, and 52 other supernatural experiences. All of these combine to bear witness that Joseph Smith truly was and is a prophet called and authorized by God.

Prophecies of Joseph Smith
https://ldshorizonpublishers.com/produc ... %20travels.