Philosophy of Suicide

[Pixel--Dude]

Hey guys! Yes, I know this topic is often taboo and considered to be a bit dark. I've thought about whether I should make this thread or not, given some people on the forum have issues with depression and possibly suicidal ideation. But I figure what the hell...

I've had suicidal ideation on and off for years, possibly since high school. Sometimes life has a way of kicking you to the curb and then head stomping you afterwards. Life doesn't give a f**k about your plans, dreams and aspirations and all the rest of it. So it's better to just let yourself be carried downstream and enjoy the ride. Trying to swim against the current of life is pointless. Might as well just accept your life circumstances and find happiness and meaning in any way you can.

All this being said, this thread isn't being made from an emotional standpoint but rather a logical and philosophical one. In this thread I am emotionally detaching myself from the topic and only looking at it from a position of clinical logic. So I will pose the controversial questions:

1. Why don't more people commit suicide? (I will elaborate more on this later)

2. Why is suicide considered the cowards way out? The act of taking one's own life means that the person would have to override the biological imperative for survival. I think this would take balls. I often joke and tell people that the only reason I haven't killed myself already is because I'm too much of a p***y

3. Is it really selfish? Is it though? Think about it. Yes, people will be hurt. But people dying is a part of the natural cycle of life. Why am I selfish if I want to "log off" earlier than nature intended. Is it not selfish that family and friends might pressure people to continue living for their sake alone? Even if the suicidal person is just suffering every day?

Now to analyse question 1 in more depth. Why don't more people commit suicide?

If you are a Christian you get to leave this world of sin and join the Lord God in Heaven. Im pretty sure there is nothing in the Bible which condemns suicide as a sin, so all religious people could join their God in heaven. But they don't. Why?

If you are an atheist similar logic applies. There are no cosmological edicts passed down by a creator God so if you are suffering why when you can end all of it in an instant?

People who are spiritual see life as the gathering of experiences and growth, so suicide would be a detriment to that end. But with reincarnation as a possibility some spiritual people might decide their mortal coil is void of meaningful experiences and restricts growth and so opt for risking suicide for a more favourable incarnation.

It's an interesting question. The philosophy of suicide is actually quite nuanced as well with differing opinions regarding whether it is a moral or immoral and cowardly action. I'll share a few of these with you all below:

Arguments Against

In western society in particular the act of suicide is seen as a cowardly and immoral act, mainly because it is seen as a selfish and permanent solution to perceived temporary problems. People could seek out therapy and improve their life in any way they can. But I think people who dismiss suicide as cowardly, selfish and even evil, probably don't understand depression or how dark a hole it can be to climb out of. My friend took his own life through depression, an act that has had negative knock on effects for his wife and her children. I really think in most cases the victims of depression and eventual suicide don't think about the consequences or incorrectly assume they are a burden upon their loved ones. This simple isn't true.

I think a lot of Christian inspired philosophy condemns suicide as an immoral action and an affront against God. A way of throwing the gift of life back in his face. Some of the Christians on the forum could elaborate on this, if they wanted to that is. I'm not going to tag anyone though because the topic is pretty dark. I'm interested in knowing in particular whether the Bible itself condemns these actions or whether it simply isn't mentioned at all.

From a deontological perspective Immanuel Kant argues that suicide is immoral for the reason that the victim is considering themselves a means to an end, which is abhorrent. He also argues that since objective morality is grounded in one's own ability to reason, suicide is wrong because it involves removing that ability through the act of ending one's own life, thereby creating a practical contradiction.

Hobbes claims in his Leviathan that natural law forbids man from committing actions which are destructive of his own life or take away the means of preserving it. Disobeying this natural law, through suicide, is irrational and immoral.

Aristotle argues against suicide in his discussion of courage, where he kind of echoes the modern Western view on suicide where killing oneself to avoid emotional pain or undesirable circumstances is a cowardly act. He further argues that it is unlawful and should be so because suicide acts against the interests of the state.


Neutral/Situational

In some cases suicide is seen as an alternative to an impending and certain death. The victim will choose to end their life on their own terms, rather than being burned alive or whatever other horror might await them. This was something I saw when the twin towers were destroyed. People jumped from the windows of the burning towers and plummeted to their certain doom. In this case they took their life into their own hands and ended things on their own terms. Can this act of suicide really be considered immoral? If these nuances exist then how do we determine what is immoral and what is justified acts of suicide?

In the age of the Samurai (1185-1868) when Japan was governed by the warrior class of the Samurai. They had the form of suicide known as Seppuku, which I'm guessing most of us know was considered the honourable way to end one's life I order to redeem oneself for transgressions or the shame of personal defeat. The Samurai didn't consider this form of suicide as cowardly or immoral. It was considered an act of bravery and something which is noble and acceptable.


Arguments That Suicide Is Permissible

There are some philosophers who believe suicide is permissible and that people shouldn't be judged for choosing to end their own life. Confucianism, for example holds that failure to follow certain values is worse than death and so suicide is permissible.

Libertarians for example believe in total bodily autonomy (something I agree with, even though I personally don't condone suicide) and therefore nobody has the right to tell you what to do with your own body. If freedom is self ownership, then do you not have the right to end your own life if that's what you want? If you are forced to live because of social pressure from family and friends for example then you do not truly have self ownership, you belong to them.

Those who support the right to die argue that suicide is acceptable under certain circumstances, such as incurable disease and old age. The idea is that although life is, in general, good, people who face irreversible suffering should not be forced to continue suffering. And I agree with this. Life should not be needlessly prolonged when suffering is the main part of one's life. So old people covered in piss or people who are disabled and have no quality of life should have the right to die without being made to live. The problem is how far should this be taken? Should people who are dissatisfied with life and who are suffering daily have the option to be euphanised? Should their decisions be accepted and respected and understood?


Conclusion

Suicide happens and the main question we have to ask ourselves is: why? In advanced Western societies where people should be grateful to have work and have all the material comforts of modernity and technological advancements etc why do so many people kill themselves?

The answer is simple. The society in which we live is f***ing toxic and life denying. For reasons I've stated in various other philosophical threads regarding the evils of the modern system

viewtopic.php?style=11&f=42&t=46528&p=385897#p385897

And also in my thread about ethics and values. viewtopic.php?style=11&f=32&t=46815&p=385331#p385331
Noble ideals are absent in society, replaced with values of solipsism. There is a complete lack of authentic love and the society of today makes everyone feel alienated and lonely. It's very sad. All in all I think society is the root cause of so many people's depression and eventual suicide.

[Pixel--Dude]

Another interesting question about suicide is why is it contagious? This video is an interesting one which talks about a town called Bridgend. In this town there was a string of suicides. Let me know what you think.

[Winston]

Some of you here have been suicidal too. What do you guys think? Is suicide right or wrong or is it situational? Does God approve of it or is it up to the individual?

[MarcosZeitola]

Some of you here have been suicidal too. What do you guys think? Is suicide right or wrong or is it situational? Does God approve of it or is it up to the individual?

Samson killed himself in the Bible. He broke the pillars of the temple and brought it down on himself and his enemies, crushing them all to death in the process. He decided to "go out with a bang" and take them all with him. So God is okay with suicide bombers, in essence. Given this fact I doubt a simple act of one single human being ending his life to end the torment of his existence would bother God very much. Hell does not exist anyway; it never is directly mentioned or described in the Bible. So it would not "doom your soul" or any of that.

[Yohan]

In Japan before WWII suicide was considered as honourable. Also to be requested by a friend or family member to assist with suicide was permitted and it was a honour to assist a suicidial person to end his life.

In general men committing suicide were often successful as they were chosen rather brutal ways how to do it, like with hanging or being assisted by somebody with a sword...

Women who tried to commit suicide often fail, using poison or medicine like sleeping pills or walking into the sea drinking sea water....

This mindset - that suicide is acceptable in Japan -did not change up to today, however the Japanese government was forced under US administration to change its acceptance and tolerance about suicide and tries now to prevent it,

The most famous place for suicide in Japan is the forest of Aokigahara.
A serious documentary about suicide in Aokigahara forest can be found here, a Japanese geologist guides you through the forest (with English subtitles).

[Pixel--Dude]

In Japan before WWII suicide was considered as honourable. Also to be requested by a friend or family member to assist with suicide was permitted and it was a honour to assist a suicidial person to end his life.

In general men committing suicide were often successful as they were chosen rather brutal ways how to do it, like with hanging or being assisted by somebody with a sword...

Women who tried to commit suicide often fail, using poison or medicine like sleeping pills or walking into the sea drinking sea water....

This mindset - that suicide is acceptable in Japan -did not change up to today, however the Japanese government was forced under US administration to change its acceptance and tolerance about suicide and tries now to prevent it,

The most famous place for suicide in Japan is the forest of Aokigahara.
A serious documentary about suicide in Aokigahara forest can be found here, a Japanese geologist guides you through the forest (with English subtitles).

Good contribution! I've looked into Aokigahara forest, or Suicide Forest. I always thought Japanese culture must be completely horrible in order to have a forest dedicated to suicide. In my opinion it speaks volumes about the kind of society in which we live that people feel so alienated and trapped in their lives that suicide is the only viable solution to their issues.

I think there is something like 30 suicides a year at Aokigahara forest. I read that in 2003 there were over hundred bodies found in the forest who had committed suicide. Apparently the Japanese authorities stopped publicising data on the number of suicides here in 2011.

@Yohan, you've lived in Japan for a while now, right? Do you notice anything strange about the culture there for such a high number of suicides? There are many people who kill themselves globally for a number of reasons, but few places have a forest or certain area dedicated to suicide other than Japan. What do you think?

[WilliamSmith]

I've had suicidal ideation on and off for years, possibly since high school.

@Pixel--Dude
NO!! Don't do it! This took me by surprise when I saw some reference to it in the shoutbox...
You're not still considering it, are you?

I read a lot of people who tried it and ended up in an NDE badly regretting it, but those are only the ones who came back...

Good people always have way more value to other people in their lives than they think, even if our brain/hormonal chemistry gives us an ass-kicking and leads to depressive/negative/suicidal inclinations temporarily. (A lot of times this is exacerbated dramatically by so-called "meds," where tons of suicide cases that take friends and relatives by total surprise and shock happen after some meds regimen has been switched up.)

[WilliamSmith]

Good contribution! I've looked into Aokigahara forest, or Suicide Forest. I always thought Japanese culture must be completely horrible in order to have a forest dedicated to suicide. In my opinion it speaks volumes about the kind of society in which we live that people feel so alienated and trapped in their lives that suicide is the only viable solution to their issues.

I think there is something like 30 suicides a year at Aokigahara forest. I read that in 2003 there were over hundred bodies found in the forest who had committed suicide. Apparently the Japanese authorities stopped publicising data on the number of suicides here in 2011.

@Yohan, you've lived in Japan for a while now, right? Do you notice anything strange about the culture there for such a high number of suicides? There are many people who kill themselves globally for a number of reasons, but few places have a forest or certain area dedicated to suicide other than Japan. What do you think?

@Pixel--Dude
I think Japan's a wonderful fascinating nation in all kinds of ways (natural geographic beauty, traditional cultural beauty, friendly polite people for the most part-- though even if not, much less likely to murder you than the wonderful people in my personal choices of expat zones + the theoretic few drunk Japanese saruman or hoodlums or something who might attack you will probably be easier to beat, LOL), but they admittedly have a lot of pathologies with weird cultural dynamics of "shaming" and intense social and cultural conformity (despite being so zany in other ways).
Lots of emotionally stunted people starved for affection there, problems with bullying, and other stuff like that.
It breaks some people in that culture psychologically.
And like he said, they have a fairly longstanding tradition of ritual suicide feeding into those inclinations, so many go to this dramatic ritualistic haunted forest on the flank of Mount Fuji... I think it's bad.
That forest is badly haunted, which is nor surprise. Also, being on the flank of Mt Fuji, which is one of those big volcanic peaks (like Mt Shasta in California), the area is notorious for paranormal activity too.

Interestingly enough, Japan still didn't rank on the top 10 list of suicide rates by country (if this data is even accurate, not sure):
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

[Pixel--Dude]

I've had suicidal ideation on and off for years, possibly since high school.

@Pixel--Dude
NO!! Don't do it! This took me by surprise when I saw some reference to it in the shoutbox...
You're not still considering it, are you?

I read a lot of people who tried it and ended up in an NDE badly regretting it, but those are only the ones who came back...

Good people always have way more value to other people in their lives than they think, even if our brain/hormonal chemistry gives us an ass-kicking and leads to depressive/negative/suicidal inclinations temporarily. (A lot of times this is exacerbated dramatically by so-called "meds," where tons of suicide cases that take friends and relatives by total surprise and shock happen after some meds regimen has been switched up.)

Thank you for your concern, but there really is no need to worry. @Lucas88 knows I've had issues with my mental health for several years now. But despite everything I can see light at the end of the tunnel and I do feel like I have plenty of reasons to keep living, even though I feel deep dissatisfaction at times and sometimes even deep emptiness. I hate the system in which I'm forced to be part of. I see others suffering and struggling and this combined with the solipsistic attitude of others who support cutthroat capitalism just because they themselves get by just fine makes me feel really sad sometimes.

I feel like the life we live is unnatural. It's alien to the soul and I've felt this way since school. I've always had a rebellious nature and my teachers even stuck me on ritalin and turned me into a compliant zombie for months in order to stop me questioning things too much. My father saw how these tablets changed me. They killed my personality and I wasn't myself anymore. He threw the tablets away and refused to keep giving them to me.

I advocate for a much simpler life and a society which endorses freedom and individuality. I want a society which is better for everyone where human connection is more authentic than it is today, relationships are actually based on love and not any alterior motives like financial gain, for example. I plan on making a thread about this at a later time.

I was really struggling recently, I'd say before Christmas and the previous year. But I'm doing much better now. I have some good friends, this community here at HA, my daughter and my new girlfriend, who I love immensely. These things keep me going. I might not be doing well financially, and sometimes I feel really restricted and trapped by artificial things imposed upon me by society, but I feel quite rich in terms of love. This is something worth much more than any amount of money. I should elaborate on this more in the nature of love thread as well.

But yeah, don't worry. I am okay.

[galii]

Chatgpt:

There have been several philosophers who have taken a pro-suicide or pro-self-delete position in their philosophical writings. One of the most famous examples is the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus, who believed that suicide was an acceptable option for those who were facing unbearable suffering. He argued that death was not to be feared and that suicide was a way to escape the pain and distress of life.

In the 19th century, the Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard wrote about the idea of "the knight of faith," who has the courage to choose death over life in order to affirm their beliefs. Similarly, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche wrote about the concept of "the eternal recurrence," which holds that life is a cycle of repeated experiences and that suicide is a way to escape this cycle.

For example, the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre wrote about the concept of "radical freedom," which gives individuals the power to choose their own destiny, including the choice to end their own life. Similarly, the French existentialist philosopher Albert Camus wrote about the idea of "the absurd," the belief that life is fundamentally meaningless and that the only response to this meaningless is to reject it through suicide.

The British philosopher Philippa Foot also wrote about the morality of suicide, arguing that there are some circumstances where suicide may be a morally acceptable choice. Similarly, the American philosopher Susan Wolf has written about the idea of "moral saints," individuals who are able to maintain a high level of moral integrity in the face of extreme suffering, and who might choose to end their own life as a way of preserving their moral principles.

[Pixel--Dude]

Chatgpt:

There have been several philosophers who have taken a pro-suicide or pro-self-delete position in their philosophical writings. One of the most famous examples is the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus, who believed that suicide was an acceptable option for those who were facing unbearable suffering. He argued that death was not to be feared and that suicide was a way to escape the pain and distress of life.

In the 19th century, the Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard wrote about the idea of "the knight of faith," who has the courage to choose death over life in order to affirm their beliefs. Similarly, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche wrote about the concept of "the eternal recurrence," which holds that life is a cycle of repeated experiences and that suicide is a way to escape this cycle.

For example, the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre wrote about the concept of "radical freedom," which gives individuals the power to choose their own destiny, including the choice to end their own life. Similarly, the French existentialist philosopher Albert Camus wrote about the idea of "the absurd," the belief that life is fundamentally meaningless and that the only response to this meaningless is to reject it through suicide.

The British philosopher Philippa Foot also wrote about the morality of suicide, arguing that there are some circumstances where suicide may be a morally acceptable choice. Similarly, the American philosopher Susan Wolf has written about the idea of "moral saints," individuals who are able to maintain a high level of moral integrity in the face of extreme suffering, and who might choose to end their own life as a way of preserving their moral principles.

Why are you posting stuff generated by a bot?

[galii]

Chatgpt:

There have been several philosophers who have taken a pro-suicide or pro-self-delete position in their philosophical writings. One of the most famous examples is the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus, who believed that suicide was an acceptable option for those who were facing unbearable suffering. He argued that death was not to be feared and that suicide was a way to escape the pain and distress of life.

In the 19th century, the Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard wrote about the idea of "the knight of faith," who has the courage to choose death over life in order to affirm their beliefs. Similarly, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche wrote about the concept of "the eternal recurrence," which holds that life is a cycle of repeated experiences and that suicide is a way to escape this cycle.

For example, the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre wrote about the concept of "radical freedom," which gives individuals the power to choose their own destiny, including the choice to end their own life. Similarly, the French existentialist philosopher Albert Camus wrote about the idea of "the absurd," the belief that life is fundamentally meaningless and that the only response to this meaningless is to reject it through suicide.

The British philosopher Philippa Foot also wrote about the morality of suicide, arguing that there are some circumstances where suicide may be a morally acceptable choice. Similarly, the American philosopher Susan Wolf has written about the idea of "moral saints," individuals who are able to maintain a high level of moral integrity in the face of extreme suffering, and who might choose to end their own life as a way of preserving their moral principles.

Why are you posting stuff generated by a bot?

Couple reasons: Because it is interesting and noteworthy to the discussion plus my english writing skills are getting worse so it would take me 2 days to write it myself.

[Pixel--Dude]

Chatgpt:

There have been several philosophers who have taken a pro-suicide or pro-self-delete position in their philosophical writings. One of the most famous examples is the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus, who believed that suicide was an acceptable option for those who were facing unbearable suffering. He argued that death was not to be feared and that suicide was a way to escape the pain and distress of life.

In the 19th century, the Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard wrote about the idea of "the knight of faith," who has the courage to choose death over life in order to affirm their beliefs. Similarly, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche wrote about the concept of "the eternal recurrence," which holds that life is a cycle of repeated experiences and that suicide is a way to escape this cycle.

For example, the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre wrote about the concept of "radical freedom," which gives individuals the power to choose their own destiny, including the choice to end their own life. Similarly, the French existentialist philosopher Albert Camus wrote about the idea of "the absurd," the belief that life is fundamentally meaningless and that the only response to this meaningless is to reject it through suicide.

The British philosopher Philippa Foot also wrote about the morality of suicide, arguing that there are some circumstances where suicide may be a morally acceptable choice. Similarly, the American philosopher Susan Wolf has written about the idea of "moral saints," individuals who are able to maintain a high level of moral integrity in the face of extreme suffering, and who might choose to end their own life as a way of preserving their moral principles.

Why are you posting stuff generated by a bot?

Couple reasons: Because it is interesting and noteworthy to the discussion plus my english writing skills are getting worse so it would take me 2 days to write it myself.

Why are your English skills declining? The other point is valid. There are a lot of philosophers who condone suicide. At least as many as there are who are opposed to it.

[galii]

Chatgpt:

There have been several philosophers who have taken a pro-suicide or pro-self-delete position in their philosophical writings. One of the most famous examples is the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus, who believed that suicide was an acceptable option for those who were facing unbearable suffering. He argued that death was not to be feared and that suicide was a way to escape the pain and distress of life.

In the 19th century, the Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard wrote about the idea of "the knight of faith," who has the courage to choose death over life in order to affirm their beliefs. Similarly, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche wrote about the concept of "the eternal recurrence," which holds that life is a cycle of repeated experiences and that suicide is a way to escape this cycle.

For example, the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre wrote about the concept of "radical freedom," which gives individuals the power to choose their own destiny, including the choice to end their own life. Similarly, the French existentialist philosopher Albert Camus wrote about the idea of "the absurd," the belief that life is fundamentally meaningless and that the only response to this meaningless is to reject it through suicide.

The British philosopher Philippa Foot also wrote about the morality of suicide, arguing that there are some circumstances where suicide may be a morally acceptable choice. Similarly, the American philosopher Susan Wolf has written about the idea of "moral saints," individuals who are able to maintain a high level of moral integrity in the face of extreme suffering, and who might choose to end their own life as a way of preserving their moral principles.

Why are you posting stuff generated by a bot?

Couple reasons: Because it is interesting and noteworthy to the discussion plus my english writing skills are getting worse so it would take me 2 days to write it myself.

Why are your English skills declining? The other point is valid. There are a lot of philosophers who condone suicide. At least as many as there are who are opposed to it.

English is my third language. When I was in the Philippines I had the environment to train it but now I don't have it.

Actually I think most philosophers were against suicide. I am an Epicurean he is on top of the list who has no problem with it.

[WilliamSmith]

I advocate for a much simpler life and a society which endorses freedom and individuality. I want a society which is better for everyone where human connection is more authentic than it is today, relationships are actually based on love and not any alterior motives like financial gain, for example. I plan on making a thread about this at a later time.

Not sure if this particular twist would appeal to you or not, but we should compare notes on the forum at least about the so-called "sea gypsy" lifestyle. (Living aboard a boat and living mostly at anchor for $0 in rents. Boats take a lot of maintenance, and one obviously needs to love the sea and stay on top of weather hazards and port regulations and so on, but once no one else stuck on land is depending on me for support I'm considering going all-in on this lifestyle.)

But yeah, don't worry. I am okay.

I am very glad to hear that!