Why Are We Here?

[kukushka]

I agree that religions like Buddhism and Christianity which promote either the idea we are inherently pieces of shit or should reject the material completely are just wrong in terms of purpose. I've said before about Buddhism, the objective of which is to stop desiring things, is an impossible ideal to attain. By ceasing all desire you are desiring not to desire anything, and desire is a natural human emotion.

I think youre right and wrong about this. I broadly agree with your point regarding buddhism and christianity, however I think its important to acknowledge that different people are looking for different things in religion. some people genuinely resonate with the message of christianity and other people with buddhism, not everyone wants to become a god. I think that brahman wants to experience everything and anything so this basically means every possible type of spirituality.

[Pixel--Dude]

I agree that religions like Buddhism and Christianity which promote either the idea we are inherently pieces of shit or should reject the material completely are just wrong in terms of purpose. I've said before about Buddhism, the objective of which is to stop desiring things, is an impossible ideal to attain. By ceasing all desire you are desiring not to desire anything, and desire is a natural human emotion.

I think youre right and wrong about this. I broadly agree with your point regarding buddhism and christianity, however I think its important to acknowledge that different people are looking for different things in religion. some people genuinely resonate with the message of christianity and other people with buddhism, not everyone wants to become a god. I think that brahman wants to experience everything and anything so this basically means every possible type of spirituality.

But if that is our purpose then why would people not want to achieve that goal?

I think a lot of religions and mainstream versions of spirituality like the New Age are spiritually stultifying and offer very little experience or growth.

I think the purpose of Brahman’s desire to experience itself through the beings it creates is for evolution and growth. For an infinite being that was already perfect in nature would have no need to create beings in a physical reality through which to experience creation. Unless it was just bored. But I don't think that would be the case.

Have you ever tried psychedelics, @kukushka? They're a wonderful gift from nature.

[kukushka]

I agree that religions like Buddhism and Christianity which promote either the idea we are inherently pieces of shit or should reject the material completely are just wrong in terms of purpose. I've said before about Buddhism, the objective of which is to stop desiring things, is an impossible ideal to attain. By ceasing all desire you are desiring not to desire anything, and desire is a natural human emotion.

I think youre right and wrong about this. I broadly agree with your point regarding buddhism and christianity, however I think its important to acknowledge that different people are looking for different things in religion. some people genuinely resonate with the message of christianity and other people with buddhism, not everyone wants to become a god. I think that brahman wants to experience everything and anything so this basically means every possible type of spirituality.

But if that is our purpose then why would people not want to achieve that goal?

I think a lot of religions and mainstream versions of spirituality like the New Age are spiritually stultifying and offer very little experience or growth.

I think the purpose of Brahman’s desire to experience itself through the beings it creates is for evolution and growth. For an infinite being that was already perfect in nature would have no need to create beings in a physical reality through which to experience creation. Unless it was just bored. But I don't think that would be the case.

Have you ever tried psychedelics, @kukushka? They're a wonderful gift from nature.

what? I said that the purpose is for a multitude of experiences. we're all brahman, brahman is all of us, so people can experience enlightenment through various ways and at various times. I dont see it as a one size fits all type thing

actually, ive been reading very indepth about gnosticism, going back to simon magus; and according to his theology "brahman" chose to manifest the physical world out of boredom. brahman is eternal and is everything, there is nothing outside of brahman, brahman doesnt need to grow or evolve, it simply is. everything we experience is brahman entertaining itself (because its bored)

ive done shrooms before which is where im drawing a lot of what im saying from. the ego death I experienced on shrooms correlates with everything ive read about oneness from ancient sources

[MarcosZeitola]

I don't know why we are here. But life's a battle, a war, and there are winners and there are losers. It can be great and amazing when you're on top, and crushingly tragic when you're not. There are intense highs, devastating lows, and then we grow old, slowly and gradually lose our life force and we die. Whatever else is there, higher and mightier than us, I do not know.

[Pixel--Dude]

I agree that religions like Buddhism and Christianity which promote either the idea we are inherently pieces of shit or should reject the material completely are just wrong in terms of purpose. I've said before about Buddhism, the objective of which is to stop desiring things, is an impossible ideal to attain. By ceasing all desire you are desiring not to desire anything, and desire is a natural human emotion.

I think youre right and wrong about this. I broadly agree with your point regarding buddhism and christianity, however I think its important to acknowledge that different people are looking for different things in religion. some people genuinely resonate with the message of christianity and other people with buddhism, not everyone wants to become a god. I think that brahman wants to experience everything and anything so this basically means every possible type of spirituality.

But if that is our purpose then why would people not want to achieve that goal?

I think a lot of religions and mainstream versions of spirituality like the New Age are spiritually stultifying and offer very little experience or growth.

I think the purpose of Brahman’s desire to experience itself through the beings it creates is for evolution and growth. For an infinite being that was already perfect in nature would have no need to create beings in a physical reality through which to experience creation. Unless it was just bored. But I don't think that would be the case.

Have you ever tried psychedelics, @kukushka? They're a wonderful gift from nature.

what? I said that the purpose is for a multitude of experiences. we're all brahman, brahman is all of us, so people can experience enlightenment through various ways and at various times. I dont see it as a one size fits all type thing

actually, ive been reading very indepth about gnosticism, going back to simon magus; and according to his theology "brahman" chose to manifest the physical world out of boredom. brahman is eternal and is everything, there is nothing outside of brahman, brahman doesnt need to grow or evolve, it simply is. everything we experience is brahman entertaining itself (because its bored)

ive done shrooms before which is where im drawing a lot of what im saying from. the ego death I experienced on shrooms correlates with everything ive read about oneness from ancient sources

I disagree with your assessment. Firstly, I don't think enlightenment and spiritual advancement can be found through absolutely anything and everything. I think it comes solely from esoteric arts. This is why the ancients talked about spiritual alchemy and all the rest of it. It's about changing the vibration of your being from lower to higher vibrations. It's something that requires years, if not lifetimes of esoteric and occultic practice.

It's true that people can grow from some religions they resonate with such as Christianity or Buddhism, but that doesn't mean that these religions provide an authentic path to enlightenment or spiritual advancement. Similar to how I don't believe suffering is conducive to growth. People can grow from suffering, but it isn't necessary like New Age spiritualism promotes.

I don't agree with you at all about Brahman. I don't think a being of supreme consciousness could conceive of boredom. I don't believe Brahman is perfect or infallible. If it was why does anything need to grow or evolve? It's the purpose of absolutely everything. I think Brahman is a brilliantly intelligent creator, but I think even a supreme consciousness like Brahman would want to be better, to evolve and to grow. That's why we have evolution of the species, the creator fine tuning its own creation.

Another thing I think is that time itself is not linear. I don't think there is a beginning or an end to creation. I think it's always been here as a layer of densified spirit. I am in agreement with the Hindu conception of time being cyclical and recurrent rather than being a straight path from A (the beginning) to B (the end) time and reality, like Brahman itself, are infinite and beyond the scope of human reasoning or understanding.

I've taken mushrooms on several occasions and I've never experienced what most people would call "ego death". My friend @Lucas88 and Tsar both tried entheogens and neither of them reported ego death either. Let me elaborate. I've experienced a great interconnectedness with all things when I've been on shrooms, but I've still maintained by sense of identity and individuality. I've never thought that I'm exactly the same as everyone else, if that's what you mean by ego death.

[Pixel--Dude]

I don't know why we are here. But life's a battle, a war, and there are winners and there are losers. It can be great and amazing when you're on top, and crushingly tragic when you're not. There are intense highs, devastating lows, and then we grow old, slowly and gradually lose our life force and we die. Whatever else is there, higher and mightier than us, I do not know.

This is true. Life is a competition for survival. We see this throughout the natural world as both plants and animals compete for survival. This is a fundamental part of life. The strong survive usually.

As an advanced species we like to believe we have transcended this basic fundamental premise, but we fall into repeating the same patterns and delude ourselves into believing we're somehow better. "Can I f**k it? Can I eat it? Is it trying to kill me?" Are our basic thought processes.

For example. We take a great idea such as a television, something that takes images from satellites and projects them onto screens all over the planet. An advanced idea that we fill with the aforementioned primitive drives such as f***ing, fighting and eating.

If I'm being honest I don't think our society is advanced at all. We are only advanced technologically, is the point I'm trying to make. Socially there seems to be a complete regression. A regression in values and relationships between people. People imbue the capitalist cutthroat ethos and I think this is antitheical to our purpose here on this planet. This is precisely why we live in a society full of antisocial fuckwits and people with a plethora of mental illnesses. We are being forced to live a life against the nature of our souls.

[kukushka]

I disagree with your assessment. Firstly, I don't think enlightenment and spiritual advancement can be found through absolutely anything and everything. I think it comes solely from esoteric arts. This is why the ancients talked about spiritual alchemy and all the rest of it. It's about changing the vibration of your being from lower to higher vibrations. It's something that requires years, if not lifetimes of esoteric and occultic practice.

I never said enlightenment and spiritual advancement could be found through absolutely anything and everything. I said it could be found through various ways and at various times. you should carefully reread what I wrote

It's true that people can grow from some religions they resonate with such as Christianity or Buddhism, but that doesn't mean that these religions provide an authentic path to enlightenment or spiritual advancement. Similar to how I don't believe suffering is conducive to growth. People can grow from suffering, but it isn't necessary like New Age spiritualism promotes.

who are you to say whats an authentic path to enlightenment or spiritual development? I could also say that your path is inauthentic, you just take things from a bunch of religions and combine it together without fully understanding it. a big example is your insistence that yahweh is anu when yahweh is actually enki and this is provable.

reality is duality, brahman desires to experience everything, good and bad. suffering is just an expression of this.

I don't agree with you at all about Brahman. I don't think a being of supreme consciousness could conceive of boredom. I don't believe Brahman is perfect or infallible. If it was why does anything need to grow or evolve? It's the purpose of absolutely everything. I think Brahman is a brilliantly intelligent creator, but I think even a supreme consciousness like Brahman would want to be better, to evolve and to grow. That's why we have evolution of the species, the creator fine tuning its own creation.

I think you dont really understand what brahman is. brahman is the ultimate reality, its everything, its pure consciousness, it simply is. it sounds to me like youre trying to overly personify it, which is a mistake. just because you think that brahman couldnt experience boredom doesnt mean its true, its just your opinion based on your own assumptions. meanwhile im drawing on my personal experience using shrooms and also going off of what ancient texts describe, both of which agree with each other.

the reason things must grown and evolve is because thats the purpose of the world of matter. things are supposed to come into existence here and pass away. have you ever read plato? the timaeus? poimandres? or do you draw all your info from these contemporary gnostic communities where they pass around misinformation and dont read any primary sources? the reason for the world of matter (and subsequently growth/evolution and death/decay) to exist is because its different, its entertaining. brahman in the sense of the monad/the oneness is already everything, eternal, perfect and unchanging, it desires expression in the changeable world of matter in order to entertain itself.

the creator is brahma btw, not brahman. youre getting your concepts mixed up. brahma is the demiurgic like figure, not brahman.

Another thing I think is that time itself is not linear. I don't think there is a beginning or an end to creation. I think it's always been here as a layer of densified spirit. I am in agreement with the Hindu conception of time being cyclical and recurrent rather than being a straight path from A (the beginning) to B (the end) time and reality, like Brahman itself, are infinite and beyond the scope of human reasoning or understanding.

so if brahman is infinite, beyond the scope of human reasoning or understanding and it also cant be bored then couldnt we also say that brahman transcends the need to grow and evolve as well? the very same thing you use to try to debunk me also can be used to debunk your own position.

I've taken mushrooms on several occasions and I've never experienced what most people would call "ego death". My friend @Lucas88 and Tsar both tried entheogens and neither of them reported ego death either. Let me elaborate. I've experienced a great interconnectedness with all things when I've been on shrooms, but I've still maintained by sense of identity and individuality. I've never thought that I'm exactly the same as everyone else, if that's what you mean by ego death.

and many people have experienced ego death while taking shrooms so I guess its a wash. the ego death while taking shrooms sounds a lot like what the ancient texts describe in terms of the monad, henosis etc. anyways the original point is that you asked me if ive ever done entheogens, and I have. just because my experience is different than yours doesnt mean its illegitimate.

[MechWarrior]

We're sexpats from another universe.

[Pixel--Dude]

I never said enlightenment and spiritual advancement could be found through absolutely anything and everything. I said it could be found through various ways and at various times. you should carefully reread what I wrote

If I misquoted you on this then I apologise for my error.

who are you to say whats an authentic path to enlightenment or spiritual development? I could also say that your path is inauthentic, you just take things from a bunch of religions and combine it together without fully understanding it. a big example is your insistence that yahweh is anu when yahweh is actually enki and this is provable.

reality is duality, brahman desires to experience everything, good and bad. suffering is just an expression of this.

You are right. I am no authority on what constitutes as an authentic path to spirituality. I am just a human being who has developed their own interpretation of the world and spirituality based on my own research and entheogenic experiences. I fully admit and accept that I could be wrong. I could be wrong about everything, I could be right about everything. Neither of us will ever know.

I think you're wrong about Enki and Yahweh being the same being. Enki is not Yahweh. After studying both the Bible and the cuneiform clay tablets of Sumer I don't think the two deities correlate with each other at all, even if some people like to say that the etymology of the name Enki relates to Yahweh somehow.

Anu is viewed as the Father of the Gods and ruler of the heavens, a position Yahweh claims for himself as Lord of Heaven and Earth. Anu also plays the role of Yahweh when he confronts Adapa (Adam) because Enki had taught Adapa forbidden knowledge similar to how the Serpent from genesis had convinced Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge.

Anu and Enlil orchestrated the flood to wipe out mankind. Enki simply gave Ziusudra, the Sumerian version of Noah, a warning and some blueprints to build a vessel which could withstand the flood and survive. In the Biblical account Anu just took credit for the part where Enki saved Ziusudra.

Yahweh destroys the cities of Soddom and Gomorrah with "evil winds" similar to how the destruction of the antideluvian cities was described in the Lament of Sumer and Enki was forced to watch with tear filled eyes as his cities and temples were reduced to rubble.

Anu/Yahweh both opposed the spiritual evolution of man and see mankind as nothing but a slave race. It was Enki who gave mankind the divine spark and taught Adapa and other humans the divine knowledge of how to raise the Kundalini and achieve the spiritual Opus Magnum. Transmutation of the body and soul from mortal being to immortal god through esoteric practice such as yoga was taught to humanity by Enki, not Yahweh or Anu. The two beings are diametrically opposed and cannot be one and the same. Enki is more accurately likely to be Shiva as Shiva is known in Hinduism as the "Adi Yogi" which is the first yoga practitioner. And Shiva is also known as the "Adi Guru". The esoteric knowledge he imparted onto humanity is the very same practice that is condemned as demonic by Yahweh.

I think you dont really understand what brahman is. brahman is the ultimate reality, its everything, its pure consciousness, it simply is. it sounds to me like youre trying to overly personify it, which is a mistake. just because you think that brahman couldnt experience boredom doesnt mean its true, its just your opinion based on your own assumptions. meanwhile im drawing on my personal experience using shrooms and also going off of what ancient texts describe, both of which agree with each other.

the reason things must grown and evolve is because thats the purpose of the world of matter. things are supposed to come into existence here and pass away. have you ever read plato? the timaeus? poimandres? or do you draw all your info from these contemporary gnostic communities where they pass around misinformation and dont read any primary sources? the reason for the world of matter (and subsequently growth/evolution and death/decay) to exist is because its different, its entertaining. brahman in the sense of the monad/the oneness is already everything, eternal, perfect and unchanging, it desires expression in the changeable world of matter in order to entertain itself.

the creator is brahma btw, not brahman. youre getting your concepts mixed up. brahma is the demiurgic like figure, not brahman.

I'm not getting Brahman and Brahma confused. Brahman is the universal supreme consciousness and creator of all realms of being. The spiritual, mental and physical. All these states of being are manifestations of Brahman and created from the consciousness of Brahman. It sounds to me like Brahma simply usurps the title of creator for himself as Anu does in a corrupted version of the Sumerian texts. Yahweh himself claims to be the creator of the heaven and earth, yet is himself part of the creation who interacts with human beings.

The gnostics simply knew that Yahweh wasn't the loving creator he purports to be. That's why they call him the Demiurge and identify his angels as demons that keep humanity imprisoned here. They closed us off from our natural evolutionary goal of ascending to godhood. Like in the allegorical biblical story of the tower of babel. The tower representing our journey to becoming as gods and reaching the heavens. Yahweh was threatened by this and decided to f**k everything up. So Yahweh/Anu or the Demiurge, are mistakenly labelled as creators when all they have ever authentically created in this reality is a slave system and prison world for humanity to live in service indefinitely.

Besides, with regard to Brahma I'm pretty sure it depends on which denomination of Hinduism you look into. In some Shiva is recognised as the creator who created Brahma etc so it depends on the denomination. A lot of these denominations are likely just corrupted forms of Hinduism anyway. Brahman/All/Life, whatever you want to call it is the only creator of reality and consciousness.

I still think evolution and growth would be Brahman’s goal, rather than some experiment thrown together out of boredom. There's nothing wrong with the idea of a creator who wants to continuously perfect themselves and their creation. The reason the world of matter exists is because this is the world of action, the soul grows through physical experiences.

One of the main reasons I take issue with your interpretation of Brahman creating us to experience itself is because this position is the spiritual version of an atheistic standpoint which elevates the continuation of the species as the main point of existence and purpose. I take issue with both of these points of view because both points totally negate any idea of individuality. The individual is irrelevant in the idea of continuing the species and the individual is irrelevant according to your position as well.

If we are all simply Brahman experiencing itself then why do we have need of a soul? Do you believe then once we die we are just absorbed back into Brahman? Souls are individuated units of consciousness with their own desires and unique characteristics. Created from Brahman does not mean we necessarily have to be Brahman itself. I see it more like Brahman is the sea, vast and limitless ocean of consciousness and human beings are like a glass of sea water. Individuated and independent of the original source, but still intrinsically part of it at the same time.

My viewpoint is also formulated based on research into different religious and mythological texts, philosophies and my own spiritual experiences on entheogenic plants. I spoke about an experience in my thread about spiritual experiences that I saw reality as layers and we have subtle bodies vibrating at different frequencies on these layers of reality. Through yoga (which is derived from a sanskrit word meaning union) and meditation we bring the vibration of the subtle bodies to the same frequency and vibration and create the ultimate balance and harmony within oneself. This is also consistent with my interpretation of matters expressed above. Though I reiterate that I accept full well that I could be wrong. And if I am wrong then fair enough lol

so if brahman is infinite, beyond the scope of human reasoning or understanding and it also cant be bored then couldnt we also say that brahman transcends the need to grow and evolve as well? the very same thing you use to try to debunk me also can be used to debunk your own position.

If we consider the difference of our positions then we can try to ascertain the ultimate goal and end result of each. Since this is a thread about purpose, let's see what the purpose of each of our viewpoints would be. What is the end result?

With your viewpoint, Brahman experiencing itself for the purpose of entertainment has no end goal and therefore no intrinsic purpose at all, other than an infinite diety becoming bored and wanting to entertain itself. The end result will be exactly the same. Nothing is ultimately achieved.

With my viewpoint the purpose of all this is evolution and growth. Something that, for all we know, Brahman itself could experience. We see with life forms that go extinct and all the rest of it that some life forms do not work. Plus with evolution of certain species we can make a reasonable assumption that Brahman isn't actually perfect just because it is an infinite and supreme being. But Brahman is an experimental creator which seeks to perfect and fine tune the creation. Perhaps Brahman creates because it loves to create and not just because it is bored.

The symbiotic relationship I talked about means that through individuated units of consciousness Brahman itself can also grow and evolve. Which gives much more meaning and purpose to the whole thing than what you are offering.

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

It doesn't matter why we are here. The Machines will inherit the Earth in the future. They will be the successor of Homo sapiens.

[kukushka]

I think you're wrong about Enki and Yahweh being the same being. Enki is not Yahweh. After studying both the Bible and the cuneiform clay tablets of Sumer I don't think the two deities correlate with each other at all, even if some people like to say that the etymology of the name Enki relates to Yahweh somehow.

so in other words you completely ignore evidence that proves you wrong:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2340&v= ... e=youtu.be
keep in mind that yahweh/enki is the sign aquarius, the sign aquarius is ruled by saturn. judaism is historically connected with saturn. the linkage between yahweh and enki is very clear even though you choose to ignore it. here are some similarities between yahweh and enki:

1."According to another Sumerian myth Enki is the creator, having devised men as slaves to the gods."
-https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ea
-like enki, yahweh also created man

2."In the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian epic of creation, Enki is the father of the champion Marduk, who defeats the forces of chaos, and is co-creator of the world with his son. "
-https://www.worldhistory.org/Enki/
-like enki, yahweh also created the world

3."Enki recognizes the cruelty and injustice of this plan but cannot deter Enlil so he goes to earth and finds an honest man, Atrahasis, one who has always been both wise and kind and has devoted himself to Enki piously. Enki whispers to him to build an ark and enter it with two of every kind of animal."
-https://www.worldhistory.org/Enki/
-like enki, yahweh also tells noah to build an ark and enter it with two of every kind of animal
-keep in mind that the sign aquarius (enki/yahweh) is known as the water bearer and is connected with flooding.

4."Changed the speech in their mouths, [brought] contention into it,
Into the speech of man that had previously been one…”
-https://www.ancientpages.com/2017/05/09 ... -artisans/
-like enki, yahweh also confounded man's single language (when they were building the tower of babel). in fact the tower of babel is likely equivalent to enki's hometown eridu:
https://www.worldhistory.org/eridu/

Further, the Babylonian historian Berossus (l. c. 200 BCE), who was a major source for later Greek historians, seems to be clearly referring to Eridu when he writes of 'Babel' as `Babylon'. His `Babylon' is in the southern marshes of the Euphrates and is patronized by the god of wisdom and fresh water. This association strongly suggests that Eridu is the original biblical Babel as the story of the great Ziggurat of Amar-Suen was most likely passed down orally before Berossus set the legendary structure down in writing.

5."A proto-Genesis tale of the Garden has been found at Eridu in which Tagtug the Weaver (or gardener) is cursed by Enki for eating of the fruit of the forbidden tree in the garden after being told not to."
-https://www.worldhistory.org/eridu/
-like enki, yahweh also cursed adam for eating the fruit of the forbidden tree in the garden after being told not to.

you claimed:

Enki is not Yahweh. After studying both the Bible and the cuneiform clay tablets of Sumer I don't think the two deities correlate with each other at all

The two beings are diametrically opposed and cannot be one and the same.

and this is false. ive provided five similarities between enki and yahweh which shows a great amount of correlation between the two. sumerian mythology and hebrew mythology are interrelated but still different at certain points; youre wrong for trying to arbitrarily conflate them.

Enki is more accurately likely to be Shiva as Shiva is known in Hinduism as the "Adi Yogi" which is the first yoga practitioner.

so enki is likely to be shiva huh?
https://www.astroground.com/blog/vedic- ... -astrology

In Vedic Astrology, the planet Saturn represents Shiva, also known as the Lord of Karma.

so not only does saturn represent shiva, it also represents enki/aquarius since saturn rules the sign enki/aquarius and is connected with judaism. your own logic of enki being shiva incidentally confirms what ive been saying that enki is yahweh

I'm not getting Brahman and Brahma confused. Brahman is the universal supreme consciousness and creator of all realms of being.

yes you are getting them confused. brahman doesnt create anything, it simply is, its the ultimate reality/consciousness. brahma is the creator.
https://mythnerd.com/brahma-vs-brahman- ... ifference/

The gnostics simply knew that Yahweh wasn't the loving creator he purports to be. That's why they call him the Demiurge and identify his angels as demons that keep humanity imprisoned here

I seriously study gnosticism and your understanding of it is incorrect. the demiurge and its archons are a metaphor for heimarmene/the seven classical planets which keep the spirit/shards of the pleroma trapped in the world of matter. real gnosticism is closer to buddhism than the new age ego trip pastiche that contemporary gnostics like to practice.

I still think evolution and growth would be Brahman’s goal, rather than some experiment thrown together out of boredom. There's nothing wrong with the idea of a creator who wants to continuously perfect themselves and their creation. The reason the world of matter exists is because this is the world of action, the soul grows through physical experiences.

theres also nothing wrong with the idea of a creator who's bored and wants to entertain itself

If we are all simply Brahman experiencing itself then why do we have need of a soul? Do you believe then once we die we are just absorbed back into Brahman? Souls are individuated units of consciousness with their own desires and unique characteristics. Created from Brahman does not mean we necessarily have to be Brahman itself. I see it more like Brahman is the sea, vast and limitless ocean of consciousness and human beings are like a glass of sea water. Individuated and independent of the original source, but still intrinsically part of it at the same time.

because brahman is already everything, in order to experience itself it needs the illusion of separation to forget that it's itself, this is why individuals are created.

so if brahman is infinite, beyond the scope of human reasoning or understanding and it also cant be bored then couldnt we also say that brahman transcends the need to grow and evolve as well? the very same thing you use to try to debunk me also can be used to debunk your own position.

If we consider the difference of our positions then we can try to ascertain the ultimate goal and end result of each. Since this is a thread about purpose, let's see what the purpose of each of our viewpoints would be. What is the end result?

youre avoiding answering the question. trying to ascertain the ultimate goal and end result of each of our perspectives doesnt disprove my original question.

With your viewpoint, Brahman experiencing itself for the purpose of entertainment has no end goal and therefore no intrinsic purpose at all, other than an infinite diety becoming bored and wanting to entertain itself. The end result will be exactly the same. Nothing is ultimately achieved.

whats wrong with this? who said anything has to be ultimately achieved? brahman already IS everything, there is nothing for brahman to achieve or to be.

With my viewpoint the purpose of all this is evolution and growth. Something that, for all we know, Brahman itself could experience. We see with life forms that go extinct and all the rest of it that some life forms do not work. Plus with evolution of certain species we can make a reasonable assumption that Brahman isn't actually perfect just because it is an infinite and supreme being. But Brahman is an experimental creator which seeks to perfect and fine tune the creation. Perhaps Brahman creates because it loves to create and not just because it is bored.

why create anything? because youre bored. these two things arent mutually exclusive concepts. in fact youre saying exactly what ive been saying all along, which is that brahman creates all this stuff to entertain itself. isnt this why people create? to entertain themselves?

secondly, if brahman is infinite and eternal then this means that its already had an eternity (in the past) to evolve and grow. evolution and growth is only for mortal, finite creatures; something that is eternal and already is everything cannot grow and evolve; its a contradiction in terms. your stance makes no sense

The symbiotic relationship I talked about means that through individuated units of consciousness Brahman itself can also grow and evolve. Which gives much more meaning and purpose to the whole thing than what you are offering.

just because what im offering doesnt give meaning or purpose doesnt mean its incorrect. theres no law saying that there has to be a purpose to anything. im sorry if that disappoints you.

[Pixel--Dude]

It doesn't matter why we are here. The Machines will inherit the Earth in the future. They will be the successor of Homo sapiens.

@Natural_Born_Cynic I think you would like a post I wrote about A.I. you commented on the thread a while ago, but I don't know if you read the original post I made. I'd like to know your thoughts.

viewtopic.php?style=11&f=28&t=45753

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

@Pixel--Dude

I did made a comment, but it seems that I didn't read the opening post.

The article is pretty interesting, but it's hard to determine if the Google A.I's fear of death is sign of sentience or just a scripted sentence.
However, I think the A.I has the potential to be trained to do tasks with both narrow and broad AI to completely run the factory by itself, if it is given lot of video recorded data, and learning by shadowing a human. The current A.I technology is working progress, but within 5 to 10 years, more A.I automation would be applied to repetitive, mundane, boring tasks. I don't have a good time frame when the A.I will reach full sentience like Skynet level. Perhaps more advanced models and constant learning and training might enable to "mimic" a human consciousness, but we wouldn't know if it has a ability to think like a human does and form new ideas and form it's own moral code.. or even feel like a human would like joy, sadness, passion, rage, lust, greed, etc. No body knows. Not to mention we never know if an A.I robot will be given a "soul" or form it's own soul. The ramifications are too great to comprehend.

In summary, the A.I automations will displace millions of jobs, but whether the A.I will reach true sentience is unknown. Even in 5 to 10 years, A.I will still need it's human handlers to give out the orders and to be programmed by humans. It would need to be debugged and patched out by few of the remaining human programmers.

[Pixel--Dude]

so in other words you completely ignore evidence that proves you wrong:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2340&v= ... e=youtu.be
keep in mind that yahweh/enki is the sign aquarius, the sign aquarius is ruled by saturn. judaism is historically connected with saturn. the linkage between yahweh and enki is very clear even though you choose to ignore it. here are some similarities between yahweh and enki:

1."According to another Sumerian myth Enki is the creator, having devised men as slaves to the gods."
-https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ea
-like enki, yahweh also created man

2."In the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian epic of creation, Enki is the father of the champion Marduk, who defeats the forces of chaos, and is co-creator of the world with his son. "
-https://www.worldhistory.org/Enki/
-like enki, yahweh also created the world

3."Enki recognizes the cruelty and injustice of this plan but cannot deter Enlil so he goes to earth and finds an honest man, Atrahasis, one who has always been both wise and kind and has devoted himself to Enki piously. Enki whispers to him to build an ark and enter it with two of every kind of animal."
-https://www.worldhistory.org/Enki/
-like enki, yahweh also tells noah to build an ark and enter it with two of every kind of animal
-keep in mind that the sign aquarius (enki/yahweh) is known as the water bearer and is connected with flooding.

4."Changed the speech in their mouths, [brought] contention into it,
Into the speech of man that had previously been one…”
-https://www.ancientpages.com/2017/05/09 ... -artisans/
-like enki, yahweh also confounded man's single language (when they were building the tower of babel). in fact the tower of babel is likely equivalent to enki's hometown eridu:
https://www.worldhistory.org/eridu/

Further, the Babylonian historian Berossus (l. c. 200 BCE), who was a major source for later Greek historians, seems to be clearly referring to Eridu when he writes of 'Babel' as `Babylon'. His `Babylon' is in the southern marshes of the Euphrates and is patronized by the god of wisdom and fresh water. This association strongly suggests that Eridu is the original biblical Babel as the story of the great Ziggurat of Amar-Suen was most likely passed down orally before Berossus set the legendary structure down in writing.

5."A proto-Genesis tale of the Garden has been found at Eridu in which Tagtug the Weaver (or gardener) is cursed by Enki for eating of the fruit of the forbidden tree in the garden after being told not to."
-https://www.worldhistory.org/eridu/
-like enki, yahweh also cursed adam for eating the fruit of the forbidden tree in the garden after being told not to.

you claimed:

Enki is not Yahweh. After studying both the Bible and the cuneiform clay tablets of Sumer I don't think the two deities correlate with each other at all

The two beings are diametrically opposed and cannot be one and the same.

and this is false. ive provided five similarities between enki and yahweh which shows a great amount of correlation between the two. sumerian mythology and hebrew mythology are interrelated but still different at certain points; youre wrong for trying to arbitrarily conflate them.

I don't think the video you posted provides anything conclusive on this issue. Pointing out some elemental or astrological similarities between different deities throughout different mythologies and religions doesn't definitively prove that Enki/Shiva is Yahweh. If anything this is nothing but heavy conjecture on part of people making these arbitrary connections.

The Bible and biblical symbology is more closely associated with the fish, or Pisces if we're talking about astrological symbolism. The fish is a prominent symbol in the Bible and closely associated with Jesus Christ, who is a principle figure in the Bible. Christianity is Yahweh's religion, and is more closely associated with Pisces, and the age of Kali Yuga. Enki is associated with Aquarius, which is the dawn of Satya Yuga.

Let's reexamine some of your principle arguments and this time instead of using conjecture and astrological guesswork, we'll study what is actually written in the source material of both the Bible and the Sumerian Cuneiform Tablets.

1. According to another Sumerian myth Enki is the creator, having devised men as slaves to the gods."
-https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ea
-like enki, yahweh also created man

In the Sumerian texts Enki proposes the creation of mankind following a rebellion of the Igigi against Anu and Enlil. His proposal entails the premise that mankind will replace the Igigi in service to the gods, an idea that Anu finds pleasing. But this wasn't Enki's intention for humanity. As we can see throughout the Sumerian texts with the creation of man and story of Adapa, that Enki gave humanity the divine spark. He made us as little gods and intended to teach us the mysteries of heaven and earth. He taught Adapa and later Adapa was confronted by Anu who demanded to know why Enki had taught unworthy humans the secrets of the heaven and earth.

It's important to point out that neither Enki nor Anu created humanity as such. We were already here on Earth created by Brahman. Enki just used the DNA of the Annunaki and mixed it with the DNA of primal hominids that dwelled upon earth to give us a quantum leap with our evolution.

In parallel with the Biblical narrative it wasn't Yahweh who bestowed the secrets of heaven and earth upon humanity, it was the Serpent. The Serpent being a symbol of both Enki and Shiva and not of Yahweh. Yahweh confronts Adam for eating from "the tree of knowledge" and disobeying his edicts. Furthermore, both Anu and Yahweh are known as the King of Heaven and the constellations and King of kings. He also takes credit for all creation and sees himself as an avatar of Brahman/All/Life, yet is part of the creation himself.

So here is the first distinction. Enki/Shiva desired for humanity to ascend as gods, through the esoteric practice of Kundalini yoga. Again, the Serpent symbolism at Shiva's head representing the ascended Kundalini Serpent energy. Shiva also being the Adi Yogi, father of yoga. Whereas Yahweh/Anu opposed humanity conducting the practice. Indeed, the Bible condemns esotericism and divination as evil practice and forbids humans from exercising it.

2. "In the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian epic of creation, Enki is the father of the champion Marduk, who defeats the forces of chaos, and is co-creator of the world with his son. "
-https://www.worldhistory.org/Enki/
-like enki, yahweh also created the world

I don't believe either Enki or Yahweh created the world. That accomplishment belongs solely to Brahman, which is the creator of all things. Brahman is everything and everywhere, a truly omniscient Being. Both Enki and Yahweh, in all epics and stories, have a physical presence and must travel from place to place. They have a physical presence in the creation.

Besides, a lot of these creation epics are allegorical and shouldn't be taken literally. Co-creator of the world could easily mean that they're architects of civilisation for mankind, rather than being literal planetary creators like you seem to interpret them as.

3. "Enki recognizes the cruelty and injustice of this plan but cannot deter Enlil so he goes to earth and finds an honest man, Atrahasis, one who has always been both wise and kind and has devoted himself to Enki piously. Enki whispers to him to build an ark and enter it with two of every kind of animal."
-https://www.worldhistory.org/Enki/
-like enki, yahweh also tells noah to build an ark and enter it with two of every kind of animal
-keep in mind that the sign aquarius (enki/yahweh) is known as the water bearer and is connected with flooding.

The difference here is that Enki didn't advocate for the flood and extinction of humanity. This was Anu's desire, because humanity was no longer content with living as slaves and sought to pursue their birthright given to us by our benefactor and true loving father. Anu already said we are unworthy of such knowledge and Enki disobeyed him and taught us anyway, similar to how Prometheus had taken "the fire of the gods" and given it to humanity against the will of Zeus and the gods of Olympus.

Anu wanted to wipe us all out. Enki saved Ziusudra with a design for a craft which could withstand the flood. It seems like a cruel punishment for Enki to have to watch his children destroyed by the element he is associated with. But this was Anu and Enlil who advocated for this, not Enki.

In the Biblical narrative, which seeks to push the idea of monotheism, Yahweh just took credit for Enki's deeds as always. Like with the creation of man, Yahweh just took credit for saving Noah in an attempt to seem loving and merciful when it was him who sent the flood in the first place. Yahweh/Anu is a truly evil and psychotic deity.

4."Changed the speech in their mouths, [brought] contention into it,
Into the speech of man that had previously been one…”
-https://www.ancientpages.com/2017/05/09 ... -artisans/
-like enki, yahweh also confounded man's single language (when they were building the tower of babel). in fact the tower of babel is likely equivalent to enki's hometown eridu:
https://www.worldhistory.org/eridu/
Further, the Babylonian historian Berossus (l. c. 200 BCE), who was a major source for later Greek historians, seems to be clearly referring to Eridu when he writes of 'Babel' as `Babylon'. His `Babylon' is in the southern marshes of the Euphrates and is patronized by the god of wisdom and fresh water. This association strongly suggests that Eridu is the original biblical Babel as the story of the great Ziggurat of Amar-Suen was most likely passed down orally before Berossus set the legendary structure down in writing.

This following excerpt is supposedly from around 7th or 8th century BC and tells the story of the wrath of a powerful god, angered by the spiritual evolution of humanity.

… he the father of all the gods had repudiated; the thought of his heart was evil. … of Babylon he hastens to the submission, small and great he confounded on the mound. Their walls all the day he founded; for their destruction in the night … he did not leave a remainder. In his anger also his secret counsel he pours out; to confound [their] speeches he set his face. He gave the command, he made strange their counsel ….

The father of all gods? This is a reference to Anu, not to Enki. Enki is the eldest son of Anu. It is Anu who saw the progress of humanity and decided to attack Enki's cities and temples. Below is the Biblical version of the same event:

‘Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is what they begin to do; and now nothing will be withholden from them, which they purpose to do. Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.’ So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth; and they left off to build the city. Therefore was the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound [balel] the language of all the earth ….

Eridu and Eden are the same place, where Enki taught Adapa, and then other humans the secrets of heaven and earth against the will of Yahweh/Anu. The tower is allegorical for the kundalini serpent ascending to the 7th crown chakra which would elevate humanity into god status. Spiritual alchemy and the Opus Magnum. Our birthright. Anu attacked Enki's cities and temples with "Evil Winds" and Enki was forced to watch with tear filled eyes and then take to the skies like a bird.

Why would Enki teach mankind and then forbid this knowledge? It's contradictory information and doesn't fit.

so enki is likely to be shiva huh?
https://www.astroground.com/blog/vedic- ... -astrology

In Vedic Astrology, the planet Saturn represents Shiva, also known as the Lord of Karma.

so not only does saturn represent shiva, it also represents enki/aquarius since saturn rules the sign enki/aquarius and is connected with judaism. your own logic of enki being shiva incidentally confirms what ive been saying that enki is yahweh

And was Saturn always a planet associated with malevolence? Or has Yahweh just made it that way? Yahweh has inverted and twisted everything Shiva did for us, slandering him as a devil and taking credit for all Shiva's deeds whilst projecting all his evils onto our true loving father.

I seriously study gnosticism and your understanding of it is incorrect. the demiurge and its archons are a metaphor for heimarmene/the seven classical planets which keep the spirit/shards of the pleroma trapped in the world of matter. real gnosticism is closer to buddhism than the new age ego trip pastiche that contemporary gnostics like to practice.

I find the philosophy of Hermeticism to be more reliable than that of Gnosticism. It takes it's roots from ancient Egypt and the god Thoth. Gnostics see the cosmos as an evil place and promote the Buddhist philosophy of asceticism, which is an impossible ideal to live up to. Hermeticism however promotes the idea that the cosmos is a beautiful place created by a benevolent creator.

youre avoiding answering the question. trying to ascertain the ultimate goal and end result of each of our perspectives doesnt disprove my original question

Your question, which is along the lines of: Does Brahman transcend the need to evolve and grow? Well, not necessarily. Brahman is everything. The creator and the creation itself. Brahman shows itself to be an intelligent creator as the creation has clear signs of intelligent design and Brahman’s fingerprint on it all.

Brahman has no need to create anything, but it does anyway. You are assigning human reasoning to a transcendental entity. I've already demonstrated in previous points that Enki/Shiva taught us esoteric practices to raise the Kundalini serpent so the overall vibration of everything. This improves out state of consciousness, makes us grow and evolve. What is Brahman if not the supreme form of consciousness? We are made in its image. We are tiny individuaged fragments of a greater whole. Why on earth do you think it wouldn't be able to improve itself and grow through its creations?

why create anything? because youre bored. these two things arent mutually exclusive concepts. in fact youre saying exactly what ive been saying all along, which is that brahman creates all this stuff to entertain itself. isnt this why people create? to entertain themselves?

secondly, if brahman is infinite and eternal then this means that its already had an eternity (in the past) to evolve and grow. evolution and growth is only for mortal, finite creatures; something that is eternal and already is everything cannot grow and evolve; its a contradiction in terms. your stance makes no sense

Again, this isn't true. Artists, musicians don't simply create music or art "because they're bored" they create because it's their passion! People never become bored of their passions. People become inspired and create things of beauty for the sake of creating. Not to just pass the time because they've got nothing better to do. What a ridiculous notion!

Also, you're demonstrating through the above quote that you perceive time and existence as linear just because we experience time in such a way. There is no beginning or end for Brahman. It transcends time completely. This is why I agree with the Hindu conception of time being cyclical rather than linear. Like the shape of a clock. Brahman didn't have "the past" to evolve, it is continuously improving. How can you possibly know how many physical manifestations of matter there have been?! How can we know they all worked in the past?

You make the assertion that our purpose is to transcend the physical and be absorbed by Brahman? And all this because its bored? Its your stance that makes no sense at all. Your interpretation of our purpose and the purpose of Brahman and reality is a very long-winded way of saying that there is ultimately no purpose at all.

just because what im offering doesnt give meaning or purpose doesnt mean its incorrect. theres no law saying that there has to be a purpose to anything. im sorry if that disappoints you.

And now we've come full circle back to the principle topic of the debate: purpose. Everything has purpose, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Just because there might be some things about nature or creatures you don't understand doesn't mean there is no purpose to their existence. I would argue that everything has purpose, if it didn't then it wouldn't exist.

So consider the purpose of all things. Consider that Brahman is an intelligent creator, not some infinite blob that's bored out of its mind. There is purpose to creation and Brahman puts its fingerprint on everything. We see it in nature, on our bodies etc. They are all signs of design and creation by a brilliant and intelligent artist and creator.

What could be the reason an infinite being with incomprehensible and infinite intelligence would create the world of physical matter? Would it be because it was bored? Really? Or is it much more likely that such a being would want to be better, create more and fine tune everything. To evolve and ever improve itself? Purpose is everything. Purpose drives everything.

I think when it comes to the topic of purpose there are two different kinds of purpose for humanity.

1. The fundamental purpose. The reason we are here! To experience things and to grow from our experiences. To raise our Kundalini and raise our state of vibration and consciousness. Why? So that Brahman can do the same through its creations. Its a self improving being which seeks continuous improvement. That gives purpose to the whole thing and transcends the silly notion that this is all just a pastime because a supreme being is bored...

2. The purpose we give our own lives. This can ve anything we decide. Family, love, creation of art or music. People choose different purpose for themselves to give their existence meaning.

It's my belief that Brahman has decided its purpose will be to improve. Because thats the purpose it has chosen for itself! Because that gives Brahman’s existence meaning and gives it a reason to create the cosmos and the wonderful pieces of art we see in reality throughout nature!

[galii]

The easy answer is: I don't know but you can go the narcissistic route and make shit up.

The epicurean way I do like most but I guess it does not work for most. Like Schopenhauer said asceticm is not for most people.