WTF????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Boner_Jones]

If we assume time to be a real phenomenon, then it goes forward towards infinity.

But it must also go backward towards infinity as well, for the past is a record of time having run its course.

Therefore, it is logical to say that we were dead FOREVER, isn't it? Because, no matter how many years you go back, there is never a starting point.

But if there were no starting point, and if we were dead forever, how can there be a time when we did exist??????

If time had existed forever, without a starting point...

HOW COULD THERE BE SUCH A THING AS A "PRESENT"???

[icarus]

Can't give a real answer to you, but your post seems to be related to the question that Stephen Hawking asks "What is the difference between the past and the future?"

[Hero]

Can''t give a real answer to you, but your post seems to be related to the question that Stephen Hawking asks "What is the difference between the past and the future?"

Measure the entropy of the universe at two points in time. The entropy will be greater at the later time.

[icarus]

Can''t give a real answer to you, but your post seems to be related to the question that Stephen Hawking asks "What is the difference between the past and the future?"

Measure the entropy of the universe at two points in time. The entropy will be greater at the later time.

I see, but for me, the sticking point is what exactly is a "point" in time. It's like 1/infinity-th of a second, or however you would symbolize the shortest measure of time available.

[Boner_Jones]

Put it this way: the existence of a "present" would make more sense if time were uni-directional, with a definite starting point:


O----------------------------------------- O ------------------------------------>
BEGINNING OF TIME


In the above diagram, the middle circle represents the present.

OTOH, when

[Hero]

I see, but for me, the sticking point is what exactly is a "point" in time. It's like 1/infinity-th of a second, or however you would symbolize the shortest measure of time available.

Yes, the concept of an "infinitesimal" is very hard to grasp. It has been defined in a branch of mathematics called Nonstandard Analysis, but you've got to study pretty hard to understand it. But of course, you would expect topics like infinity and infinitely small quantities to be challenging to say the least.

[Boner_Jones]

Put it this way: the existence of a "present" -- an actual point with a specific location -- would make more sense if time were uni-directional, with a definite point of origin, and with only one end extending towards infinity. When a line has at least one closed end, it is possible to use specific coordinates to place and locate a point in time. In the diagram below, the middle circle represents the present (i.e., the year 2009) having a specific location in time:


O----------------------------------------- O ------------------------------------>
BEGINNING OF TIME





OTOH, when time has no point of origin, (represented below as a line with arrows on both ends) the concept of a "present" becomes an impossibility:


<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

Where would the present be on a line in which both ends extend toward infinity? Specific coordinates are totally meaningless. The concept of a "present" -- as a point with a specific location on a line -- becomes an impossibility.

[adam917]

Put it this way: the existence of a "present" -- an actual point with a specific location -- would make more sense if time were uni-directional, with a definite point of origin, and with only one end extending towards infinity. When a line has at least one closed end, it is possible to use specific coordinates to place and locate a point in time. In the diagram below, the middle circle represents the present (i.e., the year 2009) having a specific location in time:


O----------------------------------------- O ------------------------------------>
BEGINNING OF TIME





OTOH, when time has no point of origin, (represented below as a line with arrows on both ends) the concept of a "present" becomes an impossibility:


<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

Where would the present be on a line in which both ends extend toward infinity? Specific coordinates are totally meaningless. The concept of a "present" -- as a point with a specific location on a line -- becomes an impossibility.

Wouldn't the present still be the middle? I guess the only difference really is that for the latter line, all times would ideally be represented in relative terms (i.e. 10 minutes from now, 14 hours ago, in 6 months, etc.) or maybe from an agreed upon epoch, like what astronomers use as number of days since the start of the current Julian Era. Times before that point could still easily be represented by negative values.

[Winston]

Boner Jones, perhaps you can post this riddle on my new SCEPCOP forum. There are many people there who are interested in metaphysics and might be able to take a crack at it?

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/forum/index.php

[Boner_Jones]

OTOH, when time has no point of origin, (represented below as a line with arrows on both ends) the concept of a "present" becomes an impossibility:


<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

Where would the present be on a line in which both ends extend toward infinity? Specific coordinates are totally meaningless. The concept of a "present" -- as a point with a specific location on a line -- becomes an impossibility.

Wouldn't the present still be the middle? I guess the only difference really is that for the latter line, all times would ideally be represented in relative terms (i.e. 10 minutes from now, 14 hours ago, in 6 months, etc.) or maybe from an agreed upon epoch, like what astronomers use as number of days since the start of the current Julian Era. Times before that point could still easily be represented by negative values.

But that's my point: there is NO "middle" on a line where both ends go to infinity!

If you try to place ANY point in time on such a line, that point is in relation to WHAT exactly??

It is in relation to infinity!

So where the past and future both extend to infinity, distinguishing a particular point in time from another is utterly useless -- an absurdity!

And if time has no starting point, then we must have been dead forever...so how could there be a time where we exist??????

[Boner_Jones]

What exactly is "now," or the "present"?

How can it possibly exist as AN OBJECTIVE FACT??

Or does it exist ONLY as a personal, individual, subjective experience???

[Winston]

Here are some interesting responses I received to your question on my SCEPCOP forum:

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/forum/ ... f=11&t=277

Ummmm difficult concept is time, mathematically it works in terms of quantitative representations and projecting time frames either backwards or forwards with respect to three dimensional space-time coordinates.

Hence Einstein’s concept of four dimensional space-time which mathematically and intuitively works to a remarkable degree. Of course the equations are symmetrical in terms of the direction time can take, in other words the equations work both forwards and backwards in time, without apparent ambiguity.

For me personally time is intimately related to distance or distance travelled. Imagine an atom or any fundamental particle that vibrates with a specific frequency in a specified amount of time. What are you actually measuring? You are measuring a change of state over a period of time (or an arbitrarily selected measure of time/distance). Therefore without change there is no measure of time as the atoms state is still the same as the measured initial state. Therefore the concept of time is a measure of change over a span of time that a human being perceives the flow of time. I am saying that without change there can be no relative comparisons between physical systems that yield a useful definition of space-time.
Without change of a system or the action between systems such systems could be viewed in effect as a system in stasis. The aforementioned system to an outside observer could be seen to experience in effect ...... no time!

The statement that time is infinite has no useful definition in terms of physical reality. According to modern cosmology time and space was created by the big-bang, from the evidence already uncovered this seems to be in accordance with theory and observation.
In terms of human experience of time I personally think that trying to combine human experience with measured time span is for the moment futile. The two are fundamentally incompatible for the time being (no pun intended...) you are measuring apples against oranges! Without a deeper and more complete understanding of both principles, one can only speculate!

Think on this more I will,
ChEERS hELLBOY

The clock is ticking, it is a mechanical device that relies on motion.The passage of time is marked by the physical movement of the mechanical device. Put another way, the distance between two points on the cog wheel may represent a second of time. Without motion of the mechanical device the clock will not work, therefore it cannot represent time in any useful way.

The second part of your quote really helps to answer your own question. However stictly speaking the Sun does not move from light to dark, it is the spinning motion of Earth that creates night and day. Again motion is intimately involved with the percieved passage of time. I hope this post answers your question(s).

Thanks,

Hellboy.

[Winston]

Speaking of time, I had a weird experience when I was 5 or 6 that reflected my deep pondering of life early on.

One afternoon my parents took me to this circus, and while we watched the acrobats performing high up in the air (with no nets below! I'll never understood why they gambled with their life like that and no one cared, that should be against the law), I spaced out and starting thinking about the nature of time. Suddenly, I noticed something while watching all the movements during the show. With every movement and action, the previous state of things disappeared into oblivion. Even the moment I realized the present, it had already passed and became the past, never to return again. It was totally out of our control. Every moment was constantly passing into oblivion. With that, I felt a sad sense of helplessness.

It was an odd thought, but I noticed this is how time was. It was depressing to dwell on it too. I don't know why I thought these things when I was 5 or 6. Anyone else here think deep things like that when you were 5 or 6?

[Winston]

A response I received to your question on the SCEPCOP forum.

Re: If time has no beginning, how can there be a present?!

Postby TaggertComet on Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:05 pm

scepcop,

I think the original poster of the quote you posted about there being no present is somewhat confused about the question he/she is asking. He/she states that there must be a beginning for there to be a reference point for the present. Points a and b on the line below can not both be the present, location a would not recognize location b as the present, just as location b would not recognize location a as the present.

X--------------a-------------b----------------->

Furthermore, they suggest that time extends infinitely in either direction in a purely linear manner. Perhaps he/she forgets the symbol we use to describe infinity ∞
It can better be visualized as a mobius strip, a line expressing infinite length, where "beginning" and "end" are the same point or state. I would suggest the opposite of his/her claim. How can there be a past and a future if there is the present? The past is just the memory in our minds of a state we once were. Since we cannot revisit the past except in our minds, does the past even exist? Time as we perceive it is just a direction, forward. No one, so far as we know, has experienced anti-time. If the past does exist and we were able to visit it, then there would have to be a separate universe/timeline created for every moment in time. It would be similar to a computer hard drive backup. Any changes you would make to that backup would be different than all the other backups, so in essence we wouldnt be revisiting our past, but moving to another state of existence. The future on the other hand is always a moment away. We never "plan for the future," we're really just planning for the present. At this point, all we have is the present.