Jewish Fear of Intermarriage

[pandabear]

Interesting:

Yiddish was an official language of the Ukrainian People's Republic (1917–21)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_language

[ladislav]

As far as Yiddish, I think a study would be in order. My guess would be it had formed the way Creole languages formed. Very slowly. But Africans words would still be peppered here and there.

Hebrew did not disappear overnight as a spoken language, I guess. Probably took a few generations. An we have no study to show that it had disappeared completely. People must have still spoken it.

The same way it took African languages some time to disappear in Louisiana and Haiti leaving just some African vocabulary in it. Plus Aramaic is kind of like Hebrew. Maybe many words were in fact, Aramaic.

Yiddish is also written in Hebrew characters. It's about 85% Germanic, 10 % Hebrew and 5% Slavic. Kind of like most Creole languages would probably be 85% French/Dutch and then there would be some English. etc., in them. And some African words.

Germans called it the Jewish Jargon. Jargon in German means something like "Creole". A different meaning from the English meaning. The word Anti-Semitism was also coined by the Germans. It did not include Arabs at that time. There were no Arabs in Germany.

Yiddish was definitely one of the official languages of the Ukrainian republic. Along with...lol...Ukrainian.
The Russians, btw, call Yiddish "yevreisky yazyk"- literally "Hebrew language". Ukrainians do not consider Jews as Ukrainians even if there for centuries. They also don't consider ethnic Russians to be Ukrainians. Even if 200 years there. Yes, siree! That's the way things are there.

Let me show you the population census in Ukraine. Jews are listed as a separate nationality. Here you go:

http://2001.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/result ... tionality/

So much unlike America, is it not? Not only them, the Russians are also a separate nationality.

Citizenship of the people is not even considered here. Not on this page. Citizenship -political belonging to a State is different from nationality there. Nationality= ethnicity. In America, Jews are not an ethnicity. Not anymore, but there they are. Officially so. It's the same in the neighboring countries- some 30+ of them with a combined population of maybe, half a billion. Hard to argue with those.

It's amazing how depending on this or that place where people are located, they become this or that, now a race, now a nationality, then they become a religious group, now they are whites and later they are Asiatics. It really depends on the observer. And the government in the area.

[pandabear]

Hebrew did not disappear overnight as a spoken language, I guess. Probably took a few generations. An we have no study to show that it had disappeared completely. People must have still spoken it.

Not overnight, but by the time of Jesus no-one spoke it. If you ever listen to Ladino--spoken by Jews in Turkey and Greece, whose ancestors left Spain in 1492--it sounds exactly like Spanish. So, probably the words that you think are Hebrew are something else. Although, Jews did continue to study Hebrew, the way that Catholics study Latin (but, of course, much more intensely). So, maybe there are a few Hebrew words in there.

[ladislav]

No one spoke it? We don't know. We weren't there at that time. Hebrew words in Yiddish are not of divine nature. Tukhes ( ass) mishpuha ( family) , yom ( sea) , loshn -( language) lisean in Arabic. It could have been some Semitic dialect similar to Hebrew. Aramaic possibly. But again, we don't know. No one was there to know for sure. Semitic languages resemble each other a lot, too.

Also, what a language sounds like does not mean it has no Hebrew words in it. But again, I know little about Ladino. To me Afrikaans sounds like Dutch. But it has plenty of African words in it.

Spaniards were liberal. Religion was what mattered. A person born in Spain is a Spaniard.

But a person born in Poland, Russia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Estonia, etc. is not Polish, Lithuanian and so on. Unless both parents are of that ethnicity- those faces, those names, etc. Doesn't matter where they were born. That's just the way things are. There, that is.

[fschmidt]

Spaniards were liberal. Religion was what mattered.

That is not liberal. Liberal means everyone is equal. Racist obviously means discriminating by race. Both are equally stupid in my opinion. What makes sense is to discriminate by religion/culture just as you say Spain did. Every great culture did just that. After your description of the racism prevalent in the Russian area (former Soviet Union), I understand why these cultures never amounted to anything. Racist cultures never amount to anything. It was the cultures that focused on religion and culture that became great.

[ladislav]

Spaniards were liberal. Religion was what mattered.

That is not liberal. Liberal means everyone is equal. Racist obviously means discriminating by race. Both are equally stupid in my opinion. What makes sense is to discriminate by religion/culture just as you say Spain did. Every great culture did just that. After your description of the racism prevalent in the Russian area (former Soviet Union), I understand why these cultures never amounted to anything. Racist cultures never amount to anything. It was the cultures that focused on religion and culture that became great.

Born in Spain- a Spaniard. Born in Russia- means nothing. Not a Russian-unless you descend from the original tribes of the area. Born in Germany- had meant nothing again unles you look like German, have a German name and your family at least 4 generations have German names and look German ( until the year 2000 when they changed the law) But still ask any German if they consider some Ahmet BulBul Ogly born in Germany a German (but at least the law is there).

Religion you can change, it's a choice. Race you cannot. Both are stupid, sure, but at least in the first case, it's less evil. You can do something about it and stay in the same place. It would be nice if they allowed everyone to be equal, otherwise, the lesser of two evils is well, lesser. So the fact that it gave a choice and considered people born there as one of their own means it was more liberal within the context of that time and place. Other countries just wanted people out. No matter what they did. No matter if born there. Look at how they treat Gypsies in Slovakia. To an American, those Gyspies are Slovaks, but not to Slovaks.

Racist cultures such as Japan and Korea did amount to a lot of things. Japan in particular says that they are great because of the racial purity, and show mongrel nations as examples of barbarism and failure.

China is 90+ percent Han Chinese - walk down the street and see what the people there look like- and they are at the helm.

Also, Germany, England, France etc were not inter-racial countries at their apogees. And the Anglo Saxon America was the idea of the founders- a New England without class tyranny- and all the engineering was done by Anglo Saxons. The other lesser Americans were just used as labor and not even seen as Americans.

In most of the world, an American/ as well as Australian, NZer etc had meant Anglo Saxon until the 1960ies. It still is seen that way in many countries. And even now in the US, Aus, Nz, etc your success depends on how much you talk and act like an Anglo Saxon. They do put token ( Anglo Saxon acting/speaking) minorities here and there to satisfy "multiculturalists", but the core of power is still Anglo Saxon and with Anglo Saxonized North Euros and Jews.

A better model than say Russia where no matter what you do, you can never join thier mainstream. Born there or not. Not a land of immigrants at all.

[fschmidt]

Religion you can change, it's a choice. Race you cannot. Both are stupid, sure, but at least in the first case, it's less evil. You can do something about it and stay in the same place. It would be nice if they allowed everyone to be equal, otherwise, the lesser of two evils is well, lesser. So it was more liberal within the context of that time and place. Other countries just wanted people out. No matter what they did.

Here you sound just like a liberal. "It would be nice if they allowed everyone to be equal" is exactly the liberal view, and I couldn't disagree more. Culture matters. Cultures are not equal.

Racist cultures such as Japan and Korea did amount to a lot of things. Japan in particular says that they are great because of racial purity and show mongrel nations as examples of barbarism and failure. China is 90+ percent Han Chinese and they are at the helm. Also, Germany, England, France etc were not inter-racial countries at their apogees. And the Anglo Saxon America was the idea of the founders- a New England without class tyranny- and all the engineering was done by Anglo Saxons. The other lesser Americans were just used as labor. In most of the world, an American/ as well as Australian, NZer etc had meant Anglo Saxon until the 1960ies. It still is seen that way in most countries. And even now in the US, Aus, Nz, etc your success depends on how much you talk and act like an Anglo Saxon. They do put token ( Anglo Saxon acting) minorities here in there to satisfy "multiculturalists" but the core of power is still Anglo Saxon and with Anglo Saxonized North Euros and Jews.

Here you are mixing up race and culture. The Japanese are focused on Japanese culture. The children of the ethnically Japanese people who moved to South America are not really considered Japanese in Japan because they are not culturally Japanese. Chinese today only care about family, friends, and money. Race is not an issue. America was really English, not Anglo-Saxon since England had been unified long enough for the Anglo-Saxon label to mean nothing anymore. And again what mattered above all were religion and culture. The Puritans were a good example of a people obsessed with religion for whom other classifications meant little. I love the Puritans. They were weren't "multiculturalists" at all. They cared about culture and religion, not race.

[ladislav]

Religion you can change, it's a choice. Race you cannot. Both are stupid, sure, but at least in the first case, it's less evil. You can do something about it and stay in the same place. It would be nice if they allowed everyone to be equal, otherwise, the lesser of two evils is well, lesser. So it was more liberal within the context of that time and place. Other countries just wanted people out. No matter what they did.

Here you sound just like a liberal. "It would be nice if they allowed everyone to be equal" is exactly the liberal view, and I couldn't disagree more. Culture matters. Cultures are not equal.

Perhaps, but that is not the point. The point is how countries in Eastern Europe will not see people born there as one of them even if religion is changed while Spain would. The Puritans in New England did care about religion a lot but they also cared about people being English by descent. I am using "Anglo Saxon" in the WASP sense. People who were coming from the UK, spoke English and who were Protestants.

Racist cultures such as Japan and Korea did amount to a lot of things. Japan in particular says that they are great because of racial purity and show mongrel nations as examples of barbarism and failure. China is 90+ percent Han Chinese and they are at the helm. Also, Germany, England, France etc were not inter-racial countries at their apogees. And the Anglo Saxon America was the idea of the founders- a New England without class tyranny- and all the engineering was done by Anglo Saxons. The other lesser Americans were just used as labor. In most of the world, an American/ as well as Australian, NZer etc had meant Anglo Saxon until the 1960ies. It still is seen that way in most countries. And even now in the US, Aus, Nz, etc your success depends on how much you talk and act like an Anglo Saxon. They do put token ( Anglo Saxon acting) minorities here in there to satisfy "multiculturalists" but the core of power is still Anglo Saxon and with Anglo Saxonized North Euros and Jews.

Here you are mixing up race and culture. The Japanese are focused on Japanese culture. The children of the ethnically Japanese people who moved to South America are not really considered Japanese in Japan because they are not culturally Japanese. Chinese today only care about family, friends, and money. Race is not an issue. America was really English, not Anglo-Saxon since England had been unified long enough for the Anglo-Saxon label to mean nothing anymore. And again what mattered above all were religion and culture. The Puritans were a good example of a people obsessed with religion for whom other classifications meant little. I love the Puritans. They were weren't "multiculturalists" at all. They cared about culture and religion, not race.

In Japan, race and culture are fused into one. The Japanese do have terms like " Nikei"- Japanese descent. And the foreign Nikei are considered a subclass of Japanese. They are not seen as really Japanese but still as somewhat Japanese. They are of Japanese blood. I have lived in Japan and know. They are given visas and are allowed to stay in Japan. They call them Nikei Braziru-jin. One half is missing though and you are not fully Japanese. But you are still pretty much Japanese. The rest are not Japanese at all. As in zero Japanese.

What the Chinese think or Koreans think needs to be determined by polls and also by being there and talking to them in their language. Also by asking their government. They are also very racially homogenous in spite of your mention of money, family, etc.

Go and walk into a Chinese town- look at what the people look like and check their names. Chinese names, Chinese faces, Chinese language.

Try being another race there, get called white devil, foreign devil and then, will talk. Try being a black man there. Stay there for a couple of years and learn Chinese and come back.

See how you come back telling me that race in immaterial.

As far as Japan goes, there is no way any Japanese would see a person of Japanese culture who doesn't look Japanese or is not of Japanese descent as a Japanese person. No way at all. So, it is a dual element. Race melted into one with culture. Like a body and soul. I was in Japan for two years ( and I speak Japanese and I know what they re saying) and I saw many Koreans born there and the Taiwanese born there who are still not Japanese. Although thier culture is Japanese and they speak Japanese with no accent. And even if they change their names and become citizens, they are still quite ostracized in Japan. And the Japanese see them as Koreans and Chinese by looking at facial features and family history. So, maybe they are Japanese to you. Not to them.

Culture? Well, US missionaries who lived in Japan and are very Japanized, who speak Japanese with no accent and who know the culture thoroughly are still not Japanese. Same principles as in E. Europe.

Japanese students in the US represent an open minded exception to the rule. They will also deny any kind of racism in Japan.

Anyway, what people say in English to an American in America is different from what they say to each other ( and an American) in their own language.

But those things are not the point I am trying to discuss.

I was really comparing Spain to Russia, Poland, Germany, etc back in the old times. That they have a similar concept of race fused with culture as the Japanese. Somewhat so, not 100% so but they still remind me of them. I've lived in Japan and I've lived in E. Europe, I speak the languages of those countries and hear and understand what people say there. Kind of similar.

This, I think that the Spaniards were less bad in many ways. Which is my opinion. Your opinion is that reilgious discrimination is just as bad as racial. Mine is that it is not as bad. You can control something in the former; in the latter, you cannot.

So, we have a difference of opinions. I say, it's better to have a church official come and baptize someone. Then he has equal rights and is seen as a Spaniard - meaning he can stay in the country. It is better than to have a group of thugs come and beat up everyone in your house whether you decide to accept a religion or not. Better than having people push you out of the country, telling you to go back to your country even if you were born here and been living here for many many generations. And there's nothing you can do. Baptism will not help. You, otoh say they are equally bad. Well, well. Opinions differ don't they?

Yes, the lesser of two evils is still an evil but it is lesser evil.