Virgins in America, Russia, and Ukraine

[publicduende]

I for one applaud young men and women who are virgin by choice: they show courage, discipline and inner strength, and they have all my esteem. This judgment doesn't mean, though, that any woman who has a sexual life before marriage is automatically a slut, or "damaged material".

Then, consider that commitment and the "gift of virginity" are themselves subject to the personal judgment of the moment, and a judgment tainted by the emotions of the moment - especially in women! Let's suppose a "virtuous" 18 years old decides to delay penetrative sex until the moment she has a boyfriend who she will deem "the Right One". If she has limited experience with men, or if (alleged) Mr. Right is particularly charming and seductive, she may decide to give her virginity to him. Only, the man becomes a douchebags days later and dumps her, or refuses to commit. Granted, the young woman may live that experience as anything between a lesson learned and a major trauma. Yet, would you call her morally "damaged material" just because of that?

I would give her the benefit of the doubt but in real life they don't learn. Once they hook up with a douchebag they keep doing it. A woman who has slept with 5-6 different guy is damaged goods, I don't care how much of a victim she thinks she is, everyone has free choice and when you keep making the wrong ones it's your fault.

Your judgements are too extreme. Sleeping with 5 or 6 different guys by mid 20s doesn't denote a slut. Most women I know have slept with that many guys, if not more, and as far as I can judge they're satill happily engaged/married with their partners. Perhaps a few of them are doing kinky stuff like games or even swinging - I will never know - yet if that's what they (both boy and girl) want to keep the relationship interesting on the sexual side, let them be...

[Tsar]

Virginity is lack of all sexual activity. Trying to cheat by saying something sexual isn't sex is lying. There are things a girl can do solo instead of engaging in sexual relations.

5-6 partners by mid 20s is definitely a slut in my mind. Approximately, that would be one boyfriend every 2-3 years. Where is the commitment in that? She would be going for the same type of guys while becoming damaged goods. Besides, I wouldn't date a girl past her early twenties. I want the girl close to eighteen to maximize the probability she would be a virgin.

Sociology, psychology, and probability are important to understanding people. Knowledge is truly power because if you know how things work you can manipulate things into your favor. Understanding sociology helps you understand how to influence people, psychology helps you understand how they will think and react to things, and probability is key to manipulating the odds to gain a desired result.

When a girl gets past age 20 she will be very independent and less impressionable. The memories formed in the past are always the memories that will define a person and past events will affect a person's future.

Doug Hutchinson (in his early fifties) married Courtney Stodden when she was 16. This is inside America. He did take a lot of heat from that marriage from some of his fellow stars and the public but she was biologically an adult.

A man that marries a 16 year old, impressionable, inexperienced girl yearning for support, attention, and approval is something that increases the odds of a healthy marriage. Throw in other factors like religion, culture, and values which can increase the probability of success. Being able to give her financial support, security, protection, formation of memories, and work to develop a closeness that she can treasure is something a good girl wouldn't ever want to throw away. By the time she's in her mid twenties she would have something few other girls her age would have. Then if she has children in her mid twenties, they already had ten years as a couple and she will be emotionally ready for more responsibility. Such a girl would be more ladylike and elegant compared to the girls that are sluts chasing thugs.

Contrast that scenario with another:

A man married a 26 year old. She has been to college, dated 8 guys since she was a high school freshman. She began her sexual activity in high school and she had a brief slut phase during her freshman year of college. She has had 10 sex partners. She toned it down for her remaining years. She has already had all the approval she needs. All her dating and life experiences have made her less impressionable and she has grown cold and somewhat cynical. Does she have STDs from all those experiences? Quite possibly. She is independent and has her own financial stable job. She is a woman and is given preferential treatment by her male boss in the form of leniency and catering to the "female empowerment" movement. At age 26 she is at the center of women's best years of childbearing (estimated best age for childbirth: 22-30). She is career oriented and independent so she wants a man to "compliment her" NOT complete her.

See the difference? That is why 18 is the age I look for in a girl. I wouldn't say no if I had the opportunity to be in a relationship with a 16 year old girl because my intentions are honorable. Psychology, sociology, statistics, and probability are key in creating a healthy relationship.

Girls were traditionally married during the ages of 16-20 because that was when they completed puberty and were most impressionable. Being a virgin, inexperienced, and impressionable worked to increase her ability to bond and increase the success of the relationship. They were traditionally married to men 5-20 years older than they were. The men offered financial security and stability to the girl. Sometimes a man her own age would marry a girl either with her parent's approval, if he could provide for her, or if they were childhood sweethearts. There would always be an exception where the girl would somehow meet another man close to her age and marry him.

Love and relationships are not just emotions. There is a science behind it and I prefer to have the odds on my side before I commit to anything.

[Cornfed]

A man that marries a 16 year old, impressionable, inexperienced girl yearning for support, attention, and approval is something that increases the odds of a healthy marriage. Throw in other factors like religion, culture, and values which can increase the probability of success. Being able to give her financial support, security, protection, formation of memories, and work to develop a closeness that she can treasure is something a good girl wouldn't ever want to throw away.

Ideally your extended family would also be there to support you and her. It takes a village.

Contrast that scenario with another:

A man married a 26 year old. She has been to college, dated 8 guys since she was a high school freshman. She began her sexual activity in high school and she had a brief slut phase during her freshman year of college. She has had 10 sex partners.

About 150 would be a more realistic scenario. Young Western females really are total sluts now in the large majority. Even men in their 20s a few years out of school may not realize how bad things have got.

She is independent and has her own financial stable job. She is a woman and is given preferential treatment by her male boss in the form of leniency and catering to the "female empowerment" movement. At age 26 she is at the center of women's best years of childbearing (estimated best age for childbirth: 22-30). She is career oriented and independent

A better way of putting it would be that she is married to the system. If she wants protection she calls the pigs. If she wants something fixed she uses her bloated affirmative action paycheck to pay a man to do it. Most public expenditure is given over to supporting the parasitical lifestyles of skanks like her. No room for another husband there. No skank can serve two masters.

[abcdavid01]

Hey, "You complete me."

Jerry Maguire is a great film.

You should add World History Tsar. Some say it's too diffuse, but I look at it for the patterns and very personal portrait it paints of who humans are. Evolutionary psychology in particular is important.

[Jackal]

A man that marries a 16 year old, impressionable, inexperienced girl yearning for support, attention, and approval is something that increases the odds of a healthy marriage. Throw in other factors like religion, culture, and values which can increase the probability of success. Being able to give her financial support, security, protection, formation of memories, and work to develop a closeness that she can treasure is something a good girl wouldn't ever want to throw away. By the time she's in her mid twenties she would have something few other girls her age would have. Then if she has children in her mid twenties, they already had ten years as a couple and she will be emotionally ready for more responsibility. Such a girl would be more ladylike and elegant compared to the girls that are sluts chasing thugs.

Perhaps, but I think that a lot of girls would still be heavily influenced by feminist messages in the media and by seeing how other people in the world live very different lifestyles. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere where there is no internet access, I think that some modern, feminist influences will eventually creep in and change her mindset and show her that she has other possibilities. Only tribes in remote jungles and places like that are totally isolated.

Tsar, are you against women having access to higher education? If so, I find that quite extreme.

[Tsar]

I'm not against women having access to higher education. If a woman wants to then she should be able to pursue it. Women attending college does have it's own opportunity costs which is impacts their ability become mothers and wives earlier than they could. There are also other negative costs involved.

I do believe family and children should come first and they shouldn't be careerists. Many should choose a part-time job that is feminine and low stress. It would also be ideal if their job was nurturing and not around many men. If an educated women wants to choose a careerist path it's her choice but a careerist isn't the woman for me.

Many women in traditional societies were educated and they were also taught how to be ladylike.

I am against women having masculine jobs and feminist education.

When a girl good goes to live in a college dorm where the majority of girls are sluts and feminists, the odds say she will be influenced and change her mindset. The internet isn't the problem. Girls aren't being taught that it is respectable for them to have a full-time career as a mother. Girls aren't being taught that being ladylike is the right way to act and being a slut is the wrong way to act.

Do you think that any worker truly matters to a corporation? It's just another worker on their bottom line and their efforts will not be remembered. Women are no different. When they raise their children like they did in the traditional times of history their children would remember them and they matter to their family because of love.

Stress can impact the ability of women to be compassionate and warm. Working long hours doesn't leave much time for the woman to be involved in her husband's life or her children's life. It's closeness that works to develop memories and bonds.

[Andrewww]

Your judgements are too extreme. Sleeping with 5 or 6 different guys by mid 20s doesn't denote a slut. Most women I know have slept with that many guys, if not more, and as far as I can judge they're satill happily engaged/married with their partners. Perhaps a few of them are doing kinky stuff like games or even swinging - I will never know - yet if that's what they (both boy and girl) want to keep the relationship interesting on the sexual side, let them be...

Do you ask every woman you know about how many men she slept with ?

If that's not a slut I don't know what is. All the women I've dated had more partners than that and I don't even ask them, I can tell by their behavior. They all had some kind of issue, one of them was into marijuana, one started crying about her ex-boyfriend who dumped her a few months back, one was a complete psycho who hated her parents. They all appeared perfectly fine when I first met them and I know guys who look very happy with their girlfriends but in reality are miserable.

The happiest couples I know are made of 2 of my best friends. They met their girlfriends in high school and they've been together since (well sort of).
One of them lives with his father and she cooks for both of them. That's the kind of woman I'd want for a long term relationship/marriage not the swinger type and it's funny because when I thought she was ugly back in high school. I never understood what my friend liked about her back then but she got hotter and hotter.

My other friend broke up and got back together with his girlfriend twice. That just shows how an ex-boyfriend can mess up your relationship (in this case my friend was the ex-boyfriend but the girl did date another guy who got dumped).

[publicduende]

Your judgements are too extreme. Sleeping with 5 or 6 different guys by mid 20s doesn't denote a slut. Most women I know have slept with that many guys, if not more, and as far as I can judge they're satill happily engaged/married with their partners. Perhaps a few of them are doing kinky stuff like games or even swinging - I will never know - yet if that's what they (both boy and girl) want to keep the relationship interesting on the sexual side, let them be...

Do you ask every woman you know about how many men she slept with ?

No, but a few of them have no problem telling me, whether spontaneously or when asked.

If that's not a slut I don't know what is. All the women I've dated had more partners than that and I don't even ask them, I can tell by their behavior. They all had some kind of issue, one of them was into marijuana, one started crying about her ex-boyfriend who dumped her a few months back, one was a complete psycho who hated her parents. They all appeared perfectly fine when I first met them and I know guys who look very happy with their girlfriends but in reality are miserable.

LOL...never occurred to you that maybe you were the one being hypo-sexual, rather than them being hyper-sexual?

I think it's quite obvious that those kinds of women have family/social or even mental issues. Their sexual behaviour is simply an effect of those issues, not a root cause. I once had a fling with one such "problematic" girl, a Frenchie. After much insistence on my side, one night she just broke into tears and admitted what I had suspected all along (no genius needed there!), that she was promiscuous because she used sex as an exchange currency to receive that minimal amount of attention, care, perhaps affection who she never had from her family and her friends, few and far apart.

She told me she was brought up by an absentee dad and her stepmom, who used to beat her up several times a day for no reason. My clumsy yet genuine attempts to psychoanalyse her were met with a shocking sentence I will never forget: "how the f**k do you know, if you've never woken up on the floor, with bruises and your own blood all around?". At least from that day, I am always quite wary not to stick the scarlet letter on women who behave like slappers, as most of the times they hide far more serious and tragical problems.

Girls like these appear fine only within the first few hours of meeting them, maybe in a noisy place, where it's relatively easy to keep a mask and conversation can't be that deep.

The happiest couples I know are made of 2 of my best friends. They met their girlfriends in high school and they've been together since (well sort of).
One of them lives with his father and she cooks for both of them. That's the kind of woman I'd want for a long term relationship/marriage not the swinger type and it's funny because when I thought she was ugly back in high school. I never understood what my friend liked about her back then but she got hotter and hotter.

My other friend broke up and got back together with his girlfriend twice. That just shows how an ex-boyfriend can mess up your relationship (in this case my friend was the ex-boyfriend but the girl did date another guy who got dumped).

I have no trouble believing that. Happy for them. An average woman who fooled around a bit in her high school and university years cannot be considered a slut until, well, you get to see her for a prolonged period of time (weeks) in different social situations, and you see the sexual promiscuity happening every time.

[publicduende]

Tsar and Magnum, I remember writing along these lines in at least another couple of posts but can't be bothered to dig them out, apologies

If you're 23 and 27 years old respectively and find it completely acceptable to be with a 16-yo as long as she's a virgin, then what happens when you crash against the simple realisation that even a majority of 16 years olds will have had a couple of boyfriends, fooled around and probably had penetrative sex? Would you give up? Would you go younger and younger and be OK with the idea of slowly turning into paedophiles?

And at the end of the day, how would you judge the "relationship quality" of a girl that young? OK she might be a virgin, but you can't expect a great deal of maturity, both intellectual and emotional, and sound judgment. If she were to be any good as a wife and a mom, you will probably know it only a few years later, as everything is still pretty much work in progress.

What you refer to when you say young virgins are "more impressionable" is precisely that kind of innocence and naivety that makes the girl more vulnerable, not happier, and her relationship with you one of silent acceptance, subservience and one-way dependency, certainly not mutual respect and understanding. The fact that many men married with young girls sound as happy as bunnies doesn't imply that both parties have it equally good. The young lady might have simply learned to accept the idea of being tutored her way into life, love, sex and eventually motherhood. If few alternatives are available to such an existence, as it might be the case in rural India or Afghanistan, maybe that could be still acceptable. In the West, though, where stimuli abound to develop the female mind in a more complete way - which may or may not include monkeying typical male conducts such as careerism and sexual promiscuity - I just find what you preach anachronistic and just plain unrealistic.

[Jester]

...what happens when you crash against the simple realisation that even a majority of 16 years olds will have had a couple of boyfriends, fooled around and probably had penetrative sex? ....

You are conjuring phony statistics. Most 16-year-old girls who are not married or engaged, are indeed virgins. Period.

The world is bigger than you think.

If few alternatives are available to such an existence, as it might be the case in rural India or Afghanistan, maybe that could be still acceptable. In the West, though, where stimuli abound to develop the female mind in a more complete way - which may or may not include monkeying typical male conducts such as careerism and sexual promiscuity - I just find what you preach anachronistic and just plain unrealistic.

And just downright plumb unacceptable?

[magnum]

All I want is a woman who will give me her body mind and heart, and I will do the same in return.

I wish I was born 100s of years ago, I'd have already made my life.

All this free thinking bull shit has condemned the natural way of life, and caused even the "liberated" to suffer even if they don't know it themselves.


Political or social "correctness" is a useless thing that destroys countries people and souls, you can't really think if the man is in a relationship and wants to take care of a wife with no ill will that it's bound to fail or be destroyed if the girl is 16 to 19?

I wouldn't even go as low as 16, though once in my 20s I did try to date a 17 year old, but so what, I didn't do it to get my rocks off or to get laid, my objectives are pure, the problem is the world is infused thinking with per-condemning thoughts of predator-esc motives
"oh your dating a girl 10 years younger you must just want a sex slave!"

Yes I want sex, and emotional satisfaction and a family and god forbid a woman that cares about me and loves me as much as I would love her.

another reason I'm in such a hurry to get hitched, women have a expiration date if you want one that's pure and not emotionally and physically spent.

[abcdavid01]

Also, fertility has a window.

[Tsar]

All I want is a woman who will give me her body mind and heart, and I will do the same in return.

another reason I'm in such a hurry to get hitched, women have a expiration date if you want one that's pure and not emotionally and physically spent.

I want much of the same. A girl that's pure, able to bond emotionally, warm heart, and not comparing me. Women do have an expiration date. It's best to go for the younger women.

I don't care what other people think. I might be a nice guy but I don't let society control me and I won't be pushed around. I don't care if I have to break "political correctness" or the status quo to get what I want out of life. The people that get what they want and make their dreams a reality do what they want regardless of society's unwritten rules. If society, liberals, feminists, or the common American ever wanted to judge me because I will eventually be dating a younger woman I wouldn't care. I would know they were jealous and that I was being a true alpha by defying the status quo. As long as my intentions are honorable I don't care about breaking any of society's rules.

What you refer to when you say young virgins are "more impressionable" is precisely that kind of innocence and naivety that makes the girl more vulnerable, not happier, and her relationship with you one of silent acceptance, subservience and one-way dependency, certainly not mutual respect and understanding.

When a young virgin is impressionable that means she could go in either direction. A good man can help her become respectable, moral, and retain her compassion. A bad boy would corrupt her and and using her just to "score." I wouldn't say that the young virgin wouldn't be happy with a good man. I know any girl would be very happy to be with me if she knew me.

[eurobrat]

...

[Jester]

I wish I was born 100s of years ago, I'd have already made my life.

They fooled around and cheated back then.

Sure. They had to sneak around, defy authority, and not caught by her dad. No coed schools, cars, dating, etc. All very different than now.