.

[Ghost]

.

[Eric]

Yawn*

[Adama]

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Taking the verse as it is, without reading into it the pop culture version of hell like you do, here is what I see: everlasting punishment - punishment that lasts forever. Neither of these verses suggest eternal torture, but an everlasting punishment. In other words, consequences that last forever. You are reading things into (these verses at least) what is not there.

This is why educating the men here is a waste of time, especially since when shown they'll refuse to believe but also use that as an occasion to mock the Bible.

Here's the definition of torture:

tor·ture
[ˈtôrCHər]
NOUN

the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person

inflicting the pain.
synonyms: infliction of pain · abuse · ill-treatment · maltreatment · [more]

Eternal torture and everlasting punishment are the exact same thing. Only the heart of a fool could believe differently.

[Eric]

Look, dude. I'm just trying to tell you something...about not relying on a need for certainty, definitive, whatever you want to call it. I've been through this, myself - over a certain personal issue I had; and I can tell you it doesn't lead anywhere good. Now I'm not sure if this is what you're going through, or not - Maybe you're happy as you are, but I and others don't sense you are, man. That's the honest truth.
When I was younger, I went through something that shaped my personality firmly, to this day I'm still dealing with its effects.
All you really need is a problem, something you're going through.....with no definitive answer & then multiple sources telling you what to do. It's nervewracking because they claim to have that answer, but both or all sides do - so who's right? It's this need 'to find an answer' I'm talking about. It will make you literally crazy/insane Reading through books, always doubting yourself, always trying to prove your point. ....it is actually a basis for mental illness. That's all it takes. The need for certainty is A cause of mental illness.
Stop putting things outside you, don't put anything outside yourself. The more locus you have inside you, the more balanced you'll be.

My point is, stop being hostage to needing certainty, "this" school or that, whatever. You're always going to be neurotic doing that, you're always going to need reinforcement (hence the mental illness). Nothing in life is perfect.
We just do what we can, and don't make a big deal of things,
make a sensible path for ourselves. That's all we can do, we don't need to torture ourselves with lots of things.

That's all. I hope I made sense, and that I'm not just perceived as rambling, here.

[Yohan]

The point is that you are unwilling or even unable to answer questions which you feel they are indeed inconvenient for you. You are evasive.

You are claiming, Catholic followers are not Christians. You say the same about the LDS and the Jehovahs.

This is new to me, nobody ever said something like that to me.

My question is clear and simple: If Catholics are no Christians, who are those believers who are correctly claiming they are Christians? So far, no answer.

It seems Adama does not even know who is a Christian and who is not, which church is presenting true Christianity, and which church does not.
The only clear answer from him was that Catholics are not Christians, but presenting a cult... He says the same about LDS and Jehovahs.

I repeat therefore my question.

Which church is presenting true Christianity? For example, episcopal, presbyterian, orthodox etc. etc.

Name them!

So far, no answer. (as usual)

[Adama]

The point is that you are unwilling or even unable to answer questions which you feel they are indeed inconvenient for you. You are evasive.

You are claiming, Catholic followers are not Christians. You say the same about the LDS and the Jehovahs.

This is new to me, nobody ever said something like that to me.

My question is clear and simple: If Catholics are no Christians, who are those believers who are correctly claiming they are Christians? So far, no answer.

It seems Adama does not even know who is a Christian and who is not, which church is presenting true Christianity, and which church does not.
The only clear answer from him was that Catholics are not Christians, but presenting a cult... He says the same about LDS and Jehovahs.

I repeat therefore my question.

Which church is presenting true Christianity? For example, episcopal, presbyterian, orthodox etc. etc.

Name them!

So far, no answer. (as usual)

Pay attention. I have answered it all throughout this thread from the beginning. Don't be upset that I haven't given you individual attention. Just because you make a request it doesn't mean I am obligated to reply. You can think what you want. I've answered which religion is true by the very content of this thread. Either go back and read everything and suffice that you won't get a better answer than that.

[Adama]

Taking the verse as it is, without reading into it the pop culture version of hell like you do, here is what I see: everlasting punishment - punishment that lasts forever. Neither of these verses suggest eternal torture, but an everlasting punishment. In other words, consequences that last forever. You are reading things into (these verses at least) what is not there.

This is beyond funny, and he says people shouldn't take me seriously. Can someone tell me, is there an alternative besides heaven and hell? If there are consequences that last forever, and if that is not in hell, then where exactly is this everlasting punishment supposed to take place?

And if this punishment is to take place in heaven, then why is everlasting punishment contrasted with eternal life which we know means heaven?

These unlearned men, who claim they know the Bible so well, as if they could pretend to master this book in one lifetime, don't believe in the most simplistic doctrine which comes by faith. Yet they would demand that I teach them from the Bible such complex things that require great faith. That is because they have no faith. They don't even want to believe that torture will exist for eternity in hell when the words are right before their very eyes. That is a spiritual blindness which cannot be fixed either in this life nor in the next.

[Adama]

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Taking the verse as it is, without reading into it the pop culture version of hell like you do, here is what I see: everlasting punishment - punishment that lasts forever. Neither of these verses suggest eternal torture, but an everlasting punishment. In other words, consequences that last forever. You are reading things into (these verses at least) what is not there.

"the pop culture version of hell like you do"

Yeah, because all along I've been talking about pop culture and not the Bible. Some scholars told this guy that only Dante believes in torture in hell for eternity. So he now chooses to believe that doctrine is not from the Bible but rather from pop culture, even when you show him the words from the Bible. Look at how locked in he is.

" here is what I see: everlasting punishment "

Well that makes sense, because that's what it says.

" punishment that lasts forever".

Yes, that would be the meaning of everlasting punishment. Sounds like you're unsure though.

"Neither of these verses suggest eternal torture, but an everlasting punishment."

Complete nonsense. Eternal torture is the same thing as everlasting punishment. Who in the world would even think there is a distinction here? The words are synonymous. It isn't like it is a completely different word with a different possible meaning. They are synonyms.

" In other words, consequences that last forever."

Yes, of course they last forever. We've established that it is everlasting punishment.

"You are reading things into (these verses at least) what is not there."

No, you're just believing what some Bible scholar told you rather than the English text right in front of your eyes which should tell you that there will be torture in hell for eternity.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Take note that the first phrase says, "shall go away into". That tells us there is a special place where there will be everlasting punishment. There is no other place except for hell. Also note that it is contrasted with life eternal. The two are opposites: eternal life for the righteous, eternal punishment (which they go away into) for the condemned.

How could a person come to any other conclusion? This is just mind blowing blindness.

[Yohan]

The point is that you are unwilling or even unable to answer questions which you feel they are indeed inconvenient for you. You are evasive.

You are claiming, Catholic followers are not Christians. You say the same about the LDS and the Jehovahs.

This is new to me, nobody ever said something like that to me.

My question is clear and simple: If Catholics are no Christians, who are those believers who are correctly claiming they are Christians? So far, no answer.

It seems Adama does not even know who is a Christian and who is not, which church is presenting true Christianity, and which church does not.
The only clear answer from him was that Catholics are not Christians, but presenting a cult... He says the same about LDS and Jehovahs.

I repeat therefore my question.

Which church is presenting true Christianity? For example, episcopal, presbyterian, orthodox etc. etc.

Name them!

So far, no answer. (as usual)

Pay attention. I have answered it all throughout this thread from the beginning. Don't be upset that I haven't given you individual attention. Just because you make a request it doesn't mean I am obligated to reply. You can think what you want. I've answered which religion is true by the very content of this thread. Either go back and read everything and suffice that you won't get a better answer than that.

I do not see anything like that in this thread, only evasive replies. I was asking which is the church, you think is presenting true Christianity. Name it! Where is it located? You said, Catholic churches are out of question, and also LDS and Jehovah's temples.

I also guess 'Reformation Lutheran Church' is out of question too, because of their support to late abortion (check out for Dr. Tiller, who was shot in such a church)

Where are these people meeting, who are promoting true Christianity by your opinion?

Of course there is no obligation to answer, this is a free speech forum about 'Happier Abroad'. No idea why you show up here to promote Christianity-related religion.

However you seem to be unable or unwilling to offer a clear answer when clear questions are asked while promoting Christianity with long verses from a bible - and this is also a form of answer -I would say, it's not a good answer. it shows missing knowledge about the subject and missing patience about presenting your agenda. Keep this in mind.

[Adama]

Revelation 20:10 KJV

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Surely, since you were a Bible thumper during your youth, Ghost, you knew all about these verses long before I even pasted them. You used to be a Bible thumping Christian.

Likewise for The_Adventurer, who claims to "know" the Bible, (despite the fact that it would take the best man on earth several lifetimes "to know" well) surely also he already knew about the eternal and everlasting punishment, torture and torment that is to take place in hell forever. I didn't need to point it out to either of you two. Both of you are practical experts on the Bible, both by your admission that you used to be a Bible thumper, and by The_adverterur's declaration that he knows the Bible.

And since you are wise men, you know how silly it is to contend the meanings of words such as eternal vs everlasting, torment vs torture, torture vs punishment.

Those wise Bible scholars, who told both of you that the Christians who believe in hell actually pulled that from Dante rather than from the Bible, well they are like those Newtonian Physicists who don't believe in the fundamental equation that force is mass times acceleration. In other words, they aren't real Christians. They're deceivers who helped lead you onto the broad road to the unspeakable place, by causing you to doubt the way of truth and the Bible.


21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[The_Adventurer]

Those are some of the verses I was expecting from the beginning. I am somewhat surprised that they were not the first to come to your mind when I asked the question. It makes me wonder how deeply you have studied the bible. I also wonder if these things mean what you think they mean. We are talking about 17th century old English after all.

If ever uncertain of meaning, though, where can you find it? You do not trust scholars as you believe they have been deceived. This is fine. The apostles didn't rely on scholars either. As Peter tell us:

2 Pet. 1
[20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The apostles relied on the scriptures themselves for their explanations of things. What they did not grasp in one place, could be found in another:

Isa. 28
[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

If we seek understanding of the King James English version, which has collected so many works which they had to acquire and study separately, we can apply this method.

Isa. 28
[13] But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

So let's look at these verses which speak being tormented "for ever" (two word). Keeping in mind that we are studying old English, and lest we confuse this with our modern usage of the one word "forever", let's look at how this term is used throughout the bible.

Speaking of slaves:

Exod. 21
[6] Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Are these slaves immortal? Are they somehow still alive and serving that master to this day? Or, if they go to heaven, they still must serve this master in the hereafter?

2 Sam. 7
[16] And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

Is Samuel still alive and still king today? Is his house and throne still in existence? Samuel's kingdom didn't even pass to his offspring. It lasted a few years and he was dead and gone. Was God lying then? Or did God mean for it to happen, but he made a mistake? Or is it more possible that the usage of this term holds a different meaning?

2 Sam. 2
[26] Then Abner called to Joab, and said, Shall the sword devour for ever? knowest thou not that it will be bitterness in the latter end? how long shall it be then, ere thou bid the people return from following their brethren?

It seems far more likely that the usage of this term, in the English of the time in which it was written, means something more akin to "until the end". Don't take my word for it. Go through your bible and check it for yourself. It is full of common things being associated with the term "for ever" when we know such things are not eternal.

Still, let's look at the verse you quoted in Revelation, and consider if unbelievers and evil people will be burning forever at any point.

REV 20
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So we can see that the good people, or the believers will join Christ in his reign over the earth, finally rewarded for their faith.

REV 20
[5] But the rest of the dead...

Notice, now we are talking about everyone else. The good people are with Christ, but the rest:

REV 20
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

SO these people have not been sitting in some eternal fire for their unbelief. They died and were dead, and that was it. They remained dead until after the second coming, and even after 1000 years of peace of Earth. Then they were resurrected. In case anyone is uncertain, they were resurrected in body, but that gets into a whole different explanation.

So what did these evil people do once granted life?

REV 20
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Notice, not everlasting punishment, but devoured, burned up... gone..
As soon as they a resurrected, they join with the devil and try to attack the Holy and peaceful city where Christ reigns. And now notice that the verse which Adama quoted, separates the devil's fate from everyone else.

REV 20
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So the devil is cast into this lake and tormented for ever and ever, so even if one wants to claim it means "forever" as we use it today, only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are there. Normal people are burned up and gone. That's why they have this concept of the "second death" (remember these evil people died once already)

REV 20
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The good people are resurrected first. They will live in peace with Christ for a thousand years and never need fear the second death. As mentioned before:

REV 20
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those people decided to join the devil and attack the city, and they get burned up. But this resurrection leads to the final judgement and the second death.

REV 21
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The evildoers are burned up, no longer existing... gone. No everlasting torment.

But feel free to look into for yourself. If you see a different story I would be interested to hear it. I stand by what I said from beginning. Nowhere does the Bible say that people go to hell for everlasting torture. That comes from Milton and Dante, and numerous amazing paintings over the centuries...

[Adama]

Those are some of the verses I was expecting from the beginning. I am somewhat surprised that they were not the first to come to your mind when I asked the question. It makes me wonder how deeply you have studied the bible. I also wonder if these things mean what you think they mean. We are talking about 17th century old English after all.

The evildoers are burned up, no longer existing... gone. No everlasting torment.

But feel free to look into for yourself. If you see a different story I would be interested to hear it. I stand by what I said from beginning. Nowhere does the Bible say that people go to hell for everlasting torture. That comes from Milton and Dante, and numerous amazing paintings over the centuries...

Then you should have just posted them, instead of playing some game where you think you can test someone's knowledge. You are the one who claims to KNOW the Bible. You are not going to shame me for knowledge or lack of knowledge of the Bible, as I never claimed to "know" the Bible. It would take many lifetimes for anyone to know the Bible, and anyone making such a statement is full of self-righteousness and lacks humility.



The second death is the Lake of Fire. Whoops. Something you didn't know. They are the same.

HEAVEN = ETERNAL LIFE.
HELL = ETERNAL DEATH /PUNISHMENT/TORTURE/TORMENT.

Do you see the contrast which also helps define each other?

REV 21
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


They aren't going to burn up. The second death is defined as the Lake of Fire. They will enter into everlasting punishment. Because if there is not everlasting punishment, then we know the Bible is incorrect. You seem to think that death is an end to existence. There is no end to existence. Their souls will burn forever. The Bible is consistent. You don't understand the concept of death in the Bible. Death really means hell when God speaks of it. It doesn't mean a simple termination of life. That's why He said we will never perish, as in never die, as in never go to hell. The unsaved will die, they will perish, and they will exist in hell as the dead forever.

The dead is another name for those who are damned. When He says He raised the damned, He means those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, because they never believed in the Lord which He foreknew, and who will be judged by their works because they refused to believe and be declared righteous through Jesus, and then they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death of perpetual punishment FOREVER. If it is not forever then the whole Bible is a lie, because in every other place He told us it is FOREVER, EVERLASTING, ETERNAL.

The believers will escape the second death, which is the Lake of Fire, which is HELL, because they are going to heaven. That is why it has no power over them. Jesus promised they would never perish, which means never die, which means they will never spend eternity in hell, but rather they will have LIFE.

[Adama]

The only way you can die and live again is if you were asleep in Jesus and not truly dead. If someone dies and is later resurrected, that means they were a believer who died. If they die and are cast into the Lake of Fire, that means they died as an unbeliever, and will suffer torment for eternity.

[Adama]

So let's look at these verses which speak being tormented "for ever" (two word). Keeping in mind that we are studying old English, and lest we confuse this with our modern usage of the one word "forever", let's look at how this term is used throughout the bible.

-That's just silly talk.

2 Sam. 7
[16] And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. Is Samuel still alive and still king today? Is his house and throne still in existence? Samuel's kingdom didn't even pass to his offspring. It lasted a few years and he was dead and gone. Was God lying then? Or did God mean for it to happen, but he made a mistake? Or is it more possible that the usage of this term holds a different meaning?

That's because you don't know the verse you are even pointing to. This verse is not about Saul. It is a promise to King David. Jesus will reign as the Son of David forever and ever.

REV 20
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

SO these people have not been sitting in some eternal fire for their unbelief. They died and were dead, and that was it. They remained dead until after the second coming, and even after 1000 years of peace of Earth. Then they were resurrected. In case anyone is uncertain, they were resurrected in body, but that gets into a whole different explanation.

So what did these evil people do once granted life?

- No, silly, man. These were also believers. You draw a false distinction here. The previous verse says it is only a small portion of believers. That is not ALL believers. It is only
> the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands <That is not the entirety of all the believers. It is only those which it lists right there. This is not saying that unbelievers were later resurrected. That would deny every verse on salvation there is. It is saying that those other believers are resurrected at a different time. MY GOODNESS! So pathetic.

REV 20
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Notice, not everlasting punishment, but devoured, burned up... gone..

-The thing you misunderstand is that this is not a description of hell. It is the description of God winning a battle against His enemies ON EARTH. Of course after he devoured and ended their earthly lives, He sent them straight to hell. How in the world did you think that was about hell?

REV 20
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So the devil is cast into this lake and tormented for ever and ever, so even if one wants to claim it means "forever" as we use it today, only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are there. Normal people are burned up and gone. That's why they have this concept of the "second death" (remember these evil people died once already)

-No, this is just willful ignorance. The fact that the Devil will burn forever and ever only reinforces the fact that hell is everlasting punishment. You think it somehow exempts all the other verses where God tells us people will go away into everlasting punishment???

[Adama]

REV 21
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The evildoers are burned up, no longer existing... gone. No everlasting torment.

Show me how this verse says they will burn up out of existence. How could it say that, when we have other verses which declare that people shall go away into everlasting punishment, suffer the vengeance of eternal fire, and that the false prophet (who is a man) shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever?

It doesn't say anything about anyone burning up. The burning there, if you open your eyes and read what is actually there, is a description of the fire and the brimstone. It is reinforcing that it is not a pleasant place. It is not indicating that people get vaporized out of existence.

Since we know it DOES NOT say that people are oblitherated, and we know there are other verses which say that hell is everlasting punishment and that people will suffer the vengeance of eternal fire, how then is it possible to say that someone is merely going to burn up?

Does the everlasting punishment God promised take place elsewhere besides the Lake of Fire, which happens to also be called The Second Death? And if it happens somewhere else, why didnt God tell us about this place?


What's so hard about believing that the everlasting punishment is in the Lake of Fire, just as the Bible says? Even a moment in hell would be terrible. If it is 1000 years or forever, what does that even matter anyway? Oh they actually believe that the point of hell is an instant vaporization into nothingness as punishment against an eternal God? He promised everlasting punishment, but at the last minute He's going to change His mind and just burn you up to a crisp until you're gone. Is that it? You truly believe that after reading at least three verses where He tells us that hell is eternal torture?

If you truly believe that, you are one of the most self deluded people in history.