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[Adama]

You're a sad individual. I admit I had to take you off ignore just for comedic value.

Or because it bothers you when I point out inconsistencies and hypocrisy. I'm not being mean or unfair. We can't understand things without asking questions, nor figure out what is right without a sense of logic. Despite how you've mocked me as being "wise," anyone who reads my posts can see clear as day that I'm asking questions while you're the one being a know-it-all. And that belies another aspect of your personality that shows me how hollow you are: just like the feminists and SJWs, you lack a sense of logic and right and wrong, and you are extremely rude as well.

Seriously. You redefine belief as belief + works. belief is belief, not belief plus works.

What are you talking about? I'll take a guess here. You seem to think good deeds are like heaven credits that people try to amass, where once they get enough they get to heaven or something like that. That's not the view I'm putting forth. What we do matters. It does. Jesus told us things to do. He gave moral teachings. That is not the same as saying one works one way into heaven. What I'm wondering is why do you discard all of the moral teachings (from God to Jesus)? Why would they give them if it didn't matter what people do? I mean, one of the biggest points of the Old Testament is that God gave humanity instructions on how to build a moral society (which you brushed off) and Jesus explained what keeping the Commandments really meant and how heaven works and how humanity can have a change of heart. In other words, I'm wondering where is the Christ is in your Christianity? The vast majority of verses you post come from Paul and others who came way after Jesus. Why do you care more about what they say than what God and Jesus say?

That just shows how the truth is unable to penetrate your mind. Please do us both a favor and leave me be.

You are free to block me or ignore me. You even did so before, then unblocked me. Perhaps you should stop acting like a bratty child.

Let me have my opinion and you can have yours. My position has been fully explained, just you dont like the answers because you've been indoctrinated with a false gospel which has rendered your mind useless. Sorry to say. BYE.

I'm not trying to stop you from having opinions or expressing them. You can't expect to post on a public message forum and then have the right to dictate who responds and who doesn't. You can block others from your view, but you can't - nor should you try to - stop them from responding. You need to become more mature.

You are right. I should not call wise, because you are not. You only trust in men who you think are wise, namely the scholars who say the Bible has been mistranslated and corrupted, rather than on the promises of the Book. I should call you a goat, or a bastard.

Also, anyone who isn't a fool knows that Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ, that God spoke to him through the Holy Ghost, that Paul's writings are scripture, and that anyone who doesn't believe any book of the Bible with Paul included doesn't believe God or even believe in Christ. Christ wrote through Paul, and Paul verifies Christ, as Peter verifies Paul, and just as Paul's writings are consistent with every other book. Anyone who doesn't believe Paul also doesn't believe Christ. That is not my opinion. That is a fact. That's one that will never sink in for men like you.

As for morality, of course that is of great importance. It is very important to keep the commandments, because He says that is proof that we love Him. Also, He will punish us with disease and possibly end our lives early, if we continue in sin. You have no idea how He can punish people on earth without taking away His promise of eternal life in heaven for them. This however, is a separate issue from salvation. Salvation is by faith alone. Keeping the law is a work. No flesh will be justified by doing work.

I also find it funny when people who don't keep the law always say that righteousness and salvation comes by the law. It should be obvious to hypocrites, who think that salvation comes by the law (although they use distraction, claiming they don't believe it's by works when it turns out that it always boils down to works) that no man can be perfect before God. No one is perfectly good enough to make it to heaven by keeping the law, which is why we must give God all the glory by trusting on Him alone. Then He will give us His righteousness, making us worthy of standing before God in heaven. It is either by grace (the gift of God) or works, not both. Trusting in both isn't placing full trust in Christ, as if He didn't do all the work necessary.

I also don't think you have any idea what you yourself even believe. You couldn't explain your belief system if you wanted to. You don't even really have one. Just anything in order to not believe the true gospel. I wonder at the vast number of damnable heresies which are separating you from God, and it truly astonishes me that that one person could hold on to so many lies and heresies so dearly. What's more, you don't and can't even see this, and probably most of the other men here can't see this easy, as they suffer in unbelief themselves.

Now that is sad.

[Ghost]

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[Adama]

You are right. I should not call wise, because you are not. You only trust in men who you think are wise, namely the scholars who say the Bible has been mistranslated and corrupted, rather than on the promises of the Book. I should call you a goat, or a bastard.

So we should disregard evidence? Oh, I guess according to you we should. That's exactly what you do with the earth, the heavenly bodies, and the universe itself. You've got this bizarre and irrational belief system which says that a) your beliefs are unquestionably correct despite textual and scientific evidence, b) that people must blindly accept them or go to hell even though you can't give a logical reason why your beliefs are legit and others aren't, and c) people must explicitly deny the evidence about anything, from the Bible to the universe.

Also, anyone who isn't a fool knows that Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ, that God spoke to him through the Holy Ghost, that Paul's writings are scripture, and that anyone who doesn't believe any book of the Bible with Paul included doesn't believe God or even believe in Christ. Christ wrote through Paul, and Paul verifies Christ, as Peter verifies Paul, and just as Paul's writings are consistent with every other book. Anyone who doesn't believe Paul also doesn't believe Christ. That is not my opinion. That is a fact. That's one that will never sink in for men like you.

Got it: in your Christianity, Christ isn't important. You love to quote Paul and other post-Christ writers, but not Jesus or God.

I also find it funny when people who don't keep the law always say that righteousness and salvation comes by the law. It should be obvious to hypocrites, who think that salvation comes by the law (although they use distraction, claiming they don't believe it's by works when it turns out that it always boils down to works) that no man can be perfect before God. No one is perfectly good enough to make it to heaven by keeping the law, which is why we must give God all the glory by trusting on Him alone. Then He will give us His righteousness, making us worthy of standing before God in heaven. It is either by grace (the gift of God) or works, not both. Trusting in both isn't placing full trust in Christ, as if He didn't do all the work necessary.

I'm not sure if this is addressed to me or is just a general statement. I'm not claiming any of that.

I also don't think you have any idea what you yourself even believe. You couldn't explain your belief system if you wanted to. You don't even really have one. Just anything in order to not believe the true gospel. I wonder at the vast number of damnable heresies which are separating you from God, and it truly astonishes me that that one person could hold on to so many lies and heresies so dearly. What's more, you don't and can't even see this, and probably most of the other men here can't see this easy, as they suffer in unbelief themselves.

Now that is sad.

No, I don't have a fully formed one. That's why I ask question and learn. The evidence does matter, and I've seen enough to know that religion reflects people more than God. There is an orderly universe put forth by God...no matter how much you deny it - and we have an infinite amount to learn from it. If God can speak through a book, He can speak through Creation also. Your religion is your ego, Platonism/Paulianism, and Denialism all rolled into one. Bad trees produce bad fruit, and by your fruits I know you're a rotten tree. I've asked a number of simple questions and you've responded with non-sense, ego, and insults. Blocking me and unblocking me like a bratty child. Asking me not to respond to your messages even though we're on a public message forum. Misrepresenting what I'm saying. Presenting a Christianity without Christ as the true faith.

So what am I reasonably to conclude? That you have it all figured out despite your ego, Denialism, and inability to be rational and civil? No, everything suggests the opposite, that what you follow is your own ego.

1. You bring up other subjects which are non-religious which we disagree on. I have other beliefs, just like everyone else does too. However, my thoughts that I express on those other beliefs, although I may think they are irrefutable, are simply my opinions and conclusions. I cannot say with any authority that any of them are true or correct no matter how much I think they are 100% true.

Also I think this is irrelevant and just an attempt to slander character.

2.You have changed the name of this thread from "understanding a belief based religion" or some similar title to "Ego, Denialism and Irrationality." Good for you.

3. Because you hate the God of the Bible, you are incapable of believing the Bible, that Paul's doctrine comes directly from Christ, that the whole Bible is inspired by the Holy Ghost, that all of the Bible is consistent, that the Bible is 100% true and literal and not a metaphor.

Yes, you call me Platonian, but look at how you believe Bible scholars over the Bible, which is one of the beliefs which condemns you, among a multitude of other unbiblical beliefs which you also subscribe to which cannot be believed in simultaneously with Christ. You are the philsopher, yet you call me Platonian. That's how blinded your eyes are.

You say that I am the ungodly one, when you are the ones who deny His Words. That's how hardened your heart is. You can't perceive. You deny that Paul is of Christ. That he was chosen by God to be an apostle, whose job it was to assemble the majority of our New Testament. You don't even realize how denying Paul is denying Christ.

Any yes, I was referring to you when I wrote that men who think that righteousness comes by the law are fools. No one can keep all the law. Especially not those who openly break the law, yet somehow they think those transgressions against the law are not sins. These men have a law of their own, which is part of the reason that Paul is denied. Since Paul gave more laws that specifically target the sins many hypocrites are guilty of. As I've seen before, Oh Paul is the only one to give that law, is what they say. So they must deny Paul because those sins are ones that they want to believe are not transgressions. And only Paul states it clearly enough for them to hear it. I don't even care about the sins of others. My point here is that if righteousness comes by the law then there was no reason for Christ to die, and also no one would ever get to heaven because no one is righteous on their own before God. These men who think righteousness comes by the law are only fooling themselves to their own destruction.

Also, I do have fruit but you've never seen them. You haven't seen the work that I have done in God's name. You only seen the words which I post here. There is much more to life than just a few words transmitted over the internet. However, if you want to use the words and opinions which I have expressed here as being fruit or the whole fruit from me, and therefore to judge me as a horrible person, then I can accept any judgement which you would render unto me for that reason. Also, let us ask, what are your fruits, if this is the standard? That's a rhetorical question.

[Adama]

No, I don't have a fully formed one. That's why I ask question and learn. The evidence does matter, and I've seen enough to know that religion reflects people more than God.

Ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. For fools there is never enough evidence. For the righteous, faith is the evidence. Anyone who doesn't believe in the Word of God is a fool. You are a fool. You only prove the Bible. Everything the Bible says is true. You prove it yourself.

Ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Believing Bible scholars over the Bible will make it very hard to come to the knowledge of the truth. Faith is the evidence. If you had faith, the Bible would then show to you that it is true. But since you believe that the Bible has been corrupted, and for that reason you can't get saved, there is no truth of the Bible that can be shown unto you. Faith in the Bible is required first. After faith, then the truths are revealed. But how can truths be revealed before there is faith? Without faith there is always doubt, like say that there is some corruption or that the whole thing is a fancy metaphor, or that the writer wasn't inspired by the Holy Ghost. Then it would become impossible to see the evidence, because all the evidence which is shown through faith is under a mountain of doubt. You don't even have the faith to overcome that doubt.

[Ghost]

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[Adama]

So don't learn, don't ask question, and disregard all evidence in favor of feelings (in modern Christianity, faith is defined as feelings.)

Accept your belief system based on your ego and feelings even though it makes little sense. I don't fear your ego.

Faith in the Bible is required first. After faith, then the truths are revealed. But how can truths be revealed before there is faith? Without faith there is always doubt, like say that there is some corruption or that the whole thing is a fancy metaphor, or that the writer wasn't inspired by the Holy Ghost. Then it would become impossible to see the evidence, because all the evidence which is shown through faith is under a mountain of doubt. You don't even have the faith to overcome that doubt.

This is what faith means to you? Well of course it does, this is Adama I'm attempting to communicate with. Evidence doesn't work that way. Evidence isn't invisible or imperceptible until one believes in it. To stake an entire belief system on irrationality...Dios mio. To reduce faith to that...how disgusting.

Every time I've tried to argue that God would make sense, small minded idiots always want to shoot me down.

Exactly. You'll always come to the wrong conclusions, especially even the opposite of reality, because you completely lack faith. That has blinded you to all truth. This is why you are not saved. There will never be enough tangible evidence. That is just like rich people who only want to get richer. There is no sufficient amount of any of those things. That too is just another wordly lust. This is the problem many of the Greeks had, which Paul wrote about. Vain philosophy; the musings of men (such as professors and PhDs) who declare each other wise because they belong to a self-selected group, but in reality they are just a bunch of idiots in a circle.

This is your problem. Heaven is not in this three dimensional world. I think it would take some faith to recognize that. Is there evidence of it? No. Could there ever be any evidence that heaven exists? No. You either believe it or you don't. After you become a believer, the truths of the scriptures become revealed, which deepens and strengthens faith, as the person comes to realize that these things really are true. But if you can only see in three dimensions, you'll keep demanding all that proof that heaven exists. You'll never get it at any point if you dont believe, until you're dead.

[Ghost]

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[Adama]

Exactly. You'll always come to the wrong conclusions, especially even the opposite of reality, because you completely lack faith.

This statement has no credibility coming from a flat earther.

That has blinded you to all truth. This is why you are not saved. There will never be enough tangible evidence. That is just like rich people who only want to get richer. There is no sufficient amount of any of those things. That too is just another wordly lust. This is the problem many of the Greeks had, which Paul wrote about. Vain philosophy; the musings of men (such as professors and PhDs) who declare each other wise because they belong to a self-selected group, but in reality they are just a bunch of idiots in a circle.

I'm not talking about "vain philosophies." Like I said, anyone can go back and look at my posts: there are many more questions than "musings." The whole point was that I was trying to learn something from you. I haven't been putting on a parade of pseudo-intellectualism. We've also been talking about some textual evidence in the Bible too, and you haven't done too well from that either.

This is your problem. Heaven is not in this three dimensional world. I think it would take some faith to recognize that. Is there evidence of it? No. Could there ever be any evidence that heaven exists? No. You either believe it or you don't. After you become a believer, the truths of the scriptures become revealed, which deepens and strengthens faith, as the person comes to realize that these things really are true. But if you can only see in three dimensions, you'll keep demanding all that proof that heaven exists. You'll never get it at any point if you dont believe, until you're dead.

Fair enough. People believe what they want to believe, and that's fine in and of itself. The problems come in when people try to force a certain view without reason or define things in such a way that only suits them, despite the textual evidence in their religious tomes. Popular conceptions of Heaven and Hell got quite cartoony that way. I disagree that there could never be any evidence that they exist. But first, everyone would have to agree on exactly what they are.

You disagree that there could never be any evidence? Of course you disagree. Anything that is true, you believe the opposite. If there were proof, then there would never be any need for faith. That's why faith is the evidence.

Since we know now that you will demand proof for those things which cannot be proven, let me say once again that you are a complete fool. You require evidence when none can be given. And you know there will never be any proof. There is no such proof. Faith is the proof. You want some tangible proof of a reality which no living person could ever have access to.

As I have been saying all along, it cannot be proven. The only proof is faith. You'll die without any faith though, in your sins, looking for some celestial proof.

That's why the book even says in every place that it is our faith or belief in Jesus. That's something you'll never have though.

Yet you would insult me. I hope you will be happy with your future.

This guy doesn't even think heaven and hell are really for real. He isn't even sure they exist. Yet he thinks he believes in Jesus. Let me tell you, if you believed in Jesus, you'd realize that both of those places are very real. There would be no question about it. Why? Because the gift of the Holy Spirit of God interprets the truth of the Bible for the believers. That's how they understand the Bible. It's pretty clear. If the Bible says those places exist, therefore they exist; exactly as stated. Unbelievers by definition doubt their existence. Some of them will find all the evidence they need, after it is too late.

[Ghost]

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[Adama]

As I was saying, to even have a reasonable discussion (though you're incapable of being reasonable it seems) we would have to agree on a definition. We wouldn't find tangible evidence if it was purely a spiritual realm. But using logic and textual evidence could lead us to a conclusion. But who ever wants to do that? You already think you have all the answers and ignore all logic when it comes to the intangible and all evidence when it comes to the tangible.

Suffice to say we wouldn't agree on the definitions. I don't believe in the "cartoon" versions of Heaven and Hell. Those come from Plato, Dante, Milton, et. al. and got into popular culture. People stretch what is written in the Bible to fit those cartoon versions though. You could look at what Jesus or God said about the two "places." I'm not even sure if God said anything about Hell. I don't think the Israelites even had a Hell. As far as Heaven, why don't you look this up: did Jesus ever describe or define Heaven as a place, or did he describe it another way? That's not a trick question. Paul isn't the only source in the Bible - Jesus said things too. You'd think as a Christian there'd be more Jesus in it for you, but like I said before I can only justify calling you a Paulian or maybe a Platonist.

1. We could and can never agree on the definition of anything. There is no evidence that is sufficient for you. Just as I do not require evidence for my Christian beliefs. That is what this is all about. A person can't see God with his eyes. God expects us to have faith. That's what God wants.

If you were capable of opening your spiritual eyes, which you are not, you would see in every place God, Jesus and the other prophets are telling us that we must have faith. You redefine faith as faith + works, because you've been blinded. Faith is not faith + works. Faith is just faith. Some people are incapable of faith.

That is why we cannot agree. You're blinded to truth because you do not have any faith. And if righteousness came by faith + works, reprobates would be just as damned either way. Fools.

2. But using logic and textual evidence could lead us to a conclusion. That's because your logic is just pure idiocy and lies. Oh none of that comes from you. Just the Bible scholars and whatever false doctrine an unsaved preacher indoctrinated you with. The evidence is right there in the Bible. The logic is also there in the Bible. You disbelieve the Bible in favor of scholars and lies. Those lies being things that are either missing from the Bible altogether (which you believe is an allusion, how foolish) or even the Bible says complete the opposite. Yet every time, you'd choose the lies over the things which are written in black and white. That is your logic. That is how faulty you are. These things are right there in front of you on the page in black and white and it still goes right through you without you registering it as true. That is a seriously screwed up state to be in.

3. You already think you have all the answers and ignore all logic when it comes to the intangible and all evidence when it comes to the tangible.

Actually no, I don't have all the answers. The answers are in the Bible. If it is in the Bible, then I am sure about it. If it is not in there, then it is just my opinion and I can be wrong about that opinion. Do you get it? No, of course you don't.

4. Suffice to say we wouldn't agree on the definitions. Yes, like when the Bible states Hell is everlasting punishment and destruction, yet you somehow believe that hell is just a place where people burn up, and that for there to be anything everlasting in hell, that implies eternal life, when Jesus only describes eternal life as heaven and everlasting punishment as hell.

How could we agree on anything when you cannot see those truths which are in black and white from the Bible? This is why there is no truth which you can perceive. Every conclusion which you come to is the opposite of reality.

5. I don't believe in the "cartoon" versions of Heaven and Hell.

No, but you are still deceived by lies, and willingly at that. If the Bible says xyz, why do you continue to say there is no such thing as xyz? If the Bible says it, then it is true. Now if you don't want to believe the Bible, that only confirms how and why you are so blind to all truth. You don't want the truth. The Bible is the source of the truth. You'll never understand that though.

6.People stretch what is written in the Bible to fit those cartoon versions though.

You know what else they stretch? They stretch verses which are not about reincarnation into verses about reincarnation. They stretch the Bible by saying hell is temporary when the Bible states THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE IN BLACK AND WHITE!

7. You could look at what Jesus or God said about the two "places."

It really seems like you don't know that Jesus is God.

8. I'm not even sure if God said anything about Hell. I don't think the Israelites even had a Hell.

I know you are not sure. There is nothing you are sure of. Oh when it comes to lies, you'll believe in every lie, without a doubt. When it comes to the truth, there is not enough evidence for you. Also, if you were to say this around a man like Adventurer, he would make you feel ashamed for being so unlearned regarding scripture.

If Jesus said it, that should be all you need to know. Why? Because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. They are the same person; three in one with Jesus (also known as THE WORD), God the Father and the Holy Ghost.

Should I post some verses here from the OT about hell? We know that I shouldnt, because even if I posted 1000 scriptures from the OT about hell, you'd dismiss them all, just as you did the verses about everlasting destruction, punishment and eternal vengeance. Blind fool.

9. As far as Heaven, why don't you look this up: did Jesus ever describe or define Heaven as a place, or did he describe it another way?

Why don't you just state what you want to state? I can't wait to read your awesome reply though. Are you going to contend the definition of the word place, or perhaps the word world? This should be very entertaining to read the nonsense your mind will come up with.

10. Paul isn't the only source in the Bible - Jesus said things too.

That has got to be a winning statement right there. Is this true? Jesus said things in the Bible? Let me ask you something, since you know Jesus so well but don't believe He wrote of hell in the Old Testament. Which book in the Bible did Jesus write?

It seems to me that John, Matthew, Luke and Mark were the ones who wrote most of the statements from The Lord in the New Testament. So let me ask you again, which book is it that Jesus wrote?

This is not to minimize Jesus. Only to point out that you're being a fool, you fool. The whole Bible is the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God in the flesh. Jesus is every book put together. Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, which is one with Jesus.

This is why we cannot agree. You don't believe in basic fundamental spiritual truths.

11.You'd think as a Christian there'd be more Jesus.

That's because you know nothing about Jesus. NOTHING. It is ALL about Jesus. Every prophet from Abel gave testimony of Jesus. See, men like you think righteousness comes by keeping the law (and that the 10 commandments are the only laws). Righteousness comes by faith in Christ. Since we have faith in Christ and He is our redeemer, it is all about Him. Once again you get the truth backwards. Work salvation is all about the person, self righteousness. Work salvation is not about God because it is not trusting on Him for salvation but rather trusting on yourself. It is all about Christ.

12. a. You speak of evidence when you've never presented any. What evidence is this which you refer to? I would say practically all those things which you think are evidence for anything are actually evidence for the exact opposite in the majority of the cases.

Like the non-existent evidence that people burn up in hell to annihilation, like the non-evidence of hell being temporary, like the non-evidence for the "allusions to reincarnation," like the non-existent evidence for everything else which you believe. All those false doctrines which separate you from the Lord and they are many. Most damnable heresies and each as complete proof of lack of salvation and blindness.


This will entertain me, as you respond and it becomes apparently that after the millionth time, you're still oblivious.

[Adama]

I said before I can only justify calling you a Paulian or maybe a Platonist.

I will accept any name by which you choose to call me. I will also choose names for you, such as goat, bastard, fool, unwise, blind. Now we can agree on this part, at least.

[Adama]

Here is a partial list of things which you believe which are the complete opposite of the truth, regarding the Bible.

1. The very concept of faith completely eludes you. That is eludes, not alludes, like your false reincarnation doctrine from demons. You have no clue what faith (noun) or believe (verb) are. You also have no idea what the commandments are.

But here's the part where you believe the opposite of the truth: You believe that salvation is faith + works, by saying that we must follow Jesus in order to be saved. That is work salvation. No flesh shall be justified by the law. It is either by faith or by works. If you are saying it is by works (or faith + works which is the same thing), then you are saying the opposite of what salvation is, because salvation is by faith alone in Jesus.

2. You believe that there can be salvation without Jesus:
a. With reincarnation,
b. But what I really want to focus on here is your claim that there is too little focus on Jesus when in reality the opposite is true: It is all about Jesus, as I have shown in prior posts.

3. You believe that people burn up in hell. This is the exact opposite of what the Bible says.
4. And also goes with number three above, you believe that hell is temporary, despite the Bible stating blatantly in many places that hell is eternal.

5. You believe that continuous existence in hell is a form of everlasting life, when the Lord Himself says that hell is everlasting punishment and that the only eternal life is in heaven.

6. You take the Bible literally in places which it should be read metaphorically, but in places where it should be taken literally you claim it is a metaphor, or worse you claim the text has been corrupted. These directly oppose the truth.

7. You believe there are "allusions" to reincarnation, somehow despite it not even being mentioned anywhere in the Bible at all and especially not even in the verses which are your best references. You believe that which is not written there, but those things which are written there, you will not ever believe.

8. You believe the World instead of believing in God and God's Word. You would let such things as Bible scholars get in the way of placing faith in Jesus. Instead you would say those verses about salvation are not to be trusted, because the book must be corrupted by mistranslation or the fake Christian church. But somehow those "allusions" are not under any doubt in your mind. So much that you even know which verses are about that subject, despite claiming not to believe in it. I bet you couldn't name any salvation verse other than John 3:16, but those verses on reincarnation, those you know well.

I may just to post more later. But it should be clear by now that if there is truth, you will believe and cling to the opposite.

[Adama]

Now I can going to post a Bible verse or two. To the unsaved, it will seem irrelevant. To those who are saved, it will make complete sense. Amazing, isn't it?

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

[Adama]

Seriously. You redefine belief as belief + works. belief is belief, not belief plus works.

What are you talking about? I'll take a guess here. You seem to think good deeds are like heaven credits that people try to amass, where once they get enough they get to heaven or something like that. That's not the view I'm putting forth. What we do matters. It does. Jesus told us things to do. He gave moral teachings. That is not the same as saying one works one way into heaven. What I'm wondering is why do you discard all of the moral teachings (from God to Jesus)? Why would they give them if it didn't matter what people do? I mean, one of the biggest points of the Old Testament is that God gave humanity instructions on how to build a moral society (which you brushed off) and Jesus explained what keeping the Commandments really meant and how heaven works and how humanity can have a change of heart. In other words, I'm wondering where is the Christ is in your Christianity? The vast majority of verses you post come from Paul and others who came way after Jesus. Why do you care more about what they say than what God and Jesus say?

Oh, look at this shining example of how your logical mind works. Let us break it down here, so that we can see for ourselves just how logical you are, Mr Logic.

1. "You seem to think good deeds are like heaven credits that people try to amass, where once they get enough they get to heaven or something like that. "

Once again, you perceive the complete opposite. That is the EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT I HAVE BEEN WRITING! If it is by faith, then it is not by works. I have been saying that it is by faith alone. How then do you figure that I think good deeds are heaven credits for entry into heaven?

How logical is your mind again, when I have been writing one thing, yet you somehow completely misconstrue that as its opposite? Mind blown.

2. "That's not the view I'm putting forth."

Actually that is exactly what you put forth, but somehow you fail at articulating the idea and just start rambling and digressing, which shall also be shown below.

3. "What we do matters. It does. Jesus told us things to do. He gave moral teachings. That is not the same as saying one works one way into heaven. "

First we must revisit this one: "You seem to think good deeds are like heaven credits that people try to amass, where once they get enough they get to heaven or something like that. " This sentence here states that salvation is not by works. That's what it means when you say you can't amass credits to enter heaven, meaning you can't work your way to get there. Then you go on to say that what we do does matter. Then you go back to saying that this is not about works.

Well if you are not talking about work salvation, what in the world are you talking about here? It is either by faith or by works, not both. You say it isn't by works, then you say our works matter, then you say it isn't by works. It seems you are just a clueless individual.

4. What I'm wondering is why do you discard all of the moral teachings (from God to Jesus)?

Naturally you don't see a distinction here, that salvation and keeping the law are two separate things. They are separate. As in they are not the same thing.

There is no disregard for the law. It is only that salvation does not come by the law. That much is obvious from scripture. Keeping the law is abstaining from sin. This is not a free pass to sin because there is still punishment during the earthly lifetime of the believer, which is something which has been explained before. If salvation came by keeping the law then no one would get to heaven, ever. It would be empty except for God and the angels.

5. " I mean, one of the biggest points of the Old Testament is that God gave humanity instructions on how to build a moral society (which you brushed off) and Jesus explained what keeping the Commandments really meant and how heaven works and how humanity can have a change of heart. "

Once again you only prove that you cannot perceive truth. Keeping the commandments is a separate issue from salvation. Fools who don't even try to keep the law somehow think that salvation comes by the law. As if they are sinless and therefore worthy of heaven living their life they way they have. They deceive themselves greatly in thinking they can have committed all those sins and still be declared righteous enough on their own to stand before God in heaven. Unbelievable blindness.

6. "In other words, I'm wondering where is the Christ is in your Christianity? The vast majority of verses you post come from Paul and others who came way after Jesus. Why do you care more about what they say than what God and Jesus say? "

That's because you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God. Any fool knows (or maybe I should say many, because obviously not every fool knows) that the Bible is inspired by the Holy Ghost. It's all the Word of God. And denying Paul is denying the Bible, and denying the Bible, as the Word of God, is denying God, because Jesus is the Word, and if you don't believe God, you're damned.

[Adama]

So don't learn, don't ask question, and disregard all evidence in favor of feelings (in modern Christianity, faith is defined as feelings.)

Accept your belief system based on your ego and feelings even though it makes little sense. I don't fear your ego.

Faith in the Bible is required first. After faith, then the truths are revealed. But how can truths be revealed before there is faith? Without faith there is always doubt, like say that there is some corruption or that the whole thing is a fancy metaphor, or that the writer wasn't inspired by the Holy Ghost. Then it would become impossible to see the evidence, because all the evidence which is shown through faith is under a mountain of doubt. You don't even have the faith to overcome that doubt.

This is what faith means to you? Well of course it does, this is Adama I'm attempting to communicate with. Evidence doesn't work that way. Evidence isn't invisible or imperceptible until one believes in it. To stake an entire belief system on irrationality...Dios mio. To reduce faith to that...how disgusting.

Every time I've tried to argue that God would make sense, small minded idiots always want to shoot me down.

In the end, we shall see who is small minded and who is an idiot. You will be very disappointed. You love logic so much, but even if you were to be judged by that measure which you claim to love, you would still radically fail, every single time, ever.

You want evidence for heaven and hell. If that is not the Bible, then there can't be any other. Oh you would disagree that there could never be any evidence. You disagree with that also. You'll be waiting for that evidence a long time. You'll be dead before you ever get such evidence. All these years and you're still waiting for more evidence?

I wonder how many fools reading this think that Jesus came down with some evidence this man would ever believe. It is apparent to me now that even if you had known the Lord, you wouldn't have believed Him. Not enough evidence, just like the Pharisees and the Rabbis.

I am also glad you do not fear my ego. You only fear my opinions. That's why you're so upset that I believe the way that I do and you can't simply just ignore it. But it is not me you should fear. You should fear Him who has the power to destroy both soul and body in hell, you fool.

And yes, that is what faith means for me. And yes, that is the way evidence works spiritually. Maybe when a tower is finally built which reaches all the way up to heaven, you'll finally have all the evidence you need. Except for that, there is none sufficient for you.