Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

[HappyGuy]

When Sarah Palin was running for VP, I heard comedians saying she looked like a porn star playing a librarian. Apparently she looked like librarians in the movie. There are men who go for librarians with glasses.

If you see librarians as sex objects because of porn movies and comedians that speaks to the point I was making, in the last decades the media has sexualized formerly nonsexual classes of women like bookworms and fatties. They get hit on daily by idiots who want to live out their porn fantasy, because of that and online dating like Tinder now women are a lot more similar than they were 20 years ago and that is not kind to most men. To a large extent after a certain age there is only one type of woman the slut and she only likes one type of guy, so if you are a sexual failure with one group of women you don't have another type of woman who might like you.

So you either have to turn yourself into something you're not and risk losing yourself in the process, or you try prostitutes, sex tourism and mail order brides, or you give up. 20 plus years ago you would just end up matching up with a woman who shares your personality, nowadays that opportunity isn't there for most because women have changed and men are more complacent than ever using the internet to cope. The guys with the odds stacked against them make it worse by giving up early on and going on forums like this to complain without even trying first. And by trying I don't mean asking all the women you see out like a pick up artist, I mean making more of an effort to find those non-standard women that match a non-standard male personality. Hopefully not getting too caught up on the women's looks at least at first because that is another reason why there are so many single men. Initial failure isn't permanent and most men peak in dating much later than women so they should avoid making assumptions while they are young and at least move around their state and their country before going abroad to see what types of women are out there and would be willing to date them. You don't find many dates staying in your comfort zone you have to take chances and venture out to even see them. That's my advice to any unpopular guys, complain less and go out more and travel whenever the opportunity arises and eventually reach a conclusion regarding your chances at a happy future. The problem with these forums is you can never tell who has really had a hard time and would be screwed socially no matter what he did because of factors out of his control and who has just been entitled and too lazy to overcome minor problems.

[mattyman]

There's an interesting theme about simping that has cropped-up in the replies above which I am inclined to agree with

re

She later told me about the men who had chased and were still chasing her even while she was with me. The guy who offered her free rides in an airplane. The guy who handed her a big sum of money telling her to use it on personal shopping for herself. It is unfortunately the case that simping is an epidemic. Any attractive women has hordes of men after her, and many of those men seem to think that the way to a woman's heart is by throwing money at it like horseshoes hoping the next toss will be the one that sticks. She asked me, "Should I feel bad for having accepted free stuff from this guy when I was never interested in him?" I told her hell no. I would have done the same in her position. Who turns down free stuff? Not me.

I've said it many times. Women are not the problem. Men are the problem. Until we learn to demand equal investment, women will continue to treat us like kleenix--used once and thrown away.

Guys who try to 'buy' attention like that? My initial thoughts are, how sad. Girls who accept these sorts of bribes for sex? Whores. Still, worryingly such behaviour among young women is being enabled.

A example from a few years ago down a local bar; there was this thot going round begging the guys for free drinks, I refused, I said I don't know you, I don't get strangers drinks unless I offer, she stopped pestering me. There was no shortage of guys who were eager to comply, trust me). Worryingly, looking around me, I saw many guys she approached literally empty their wallets.It's a bit like a bunch of bloody puppies. I was shocked at the time, not only how SHAMELESS this thot was behaving, but how a lot of the guys around behaved and ere so eager and desperate.

You guys are right, simping is a very real issue.

Back on the note of the original topic

re

The guys with the odds stacked against them make it worse by giving up early on and going on forums like this to complain without even trying first. And by trying I don't mean asking all the women you see out like a pick up artist, I mean making more of an effort to find those non-standard women that match a non-standard male personality. Hopefully not getting too caught up on the women's looks at least at first because that is another reason why there are so many single men.

Exactly. Too much advice for men is aimed at meeting women in pulling, chat-up sorts of settings. The best way to meet 'non-standard' women is probably through indirect methods (as they say, most people meet their partner through people or through 'warm approaches') rather than through 'meat market' sorts of settings.

The note about putting women on a pedestal because of their looks. That's a theme that's been recurrent in this thread and has also cropped up a lot on the forum when I've been lurking. Again, simping, pedestalizing women is probably playing a part here. In fact, in some of the points that I made in the OP, this dynamic is partly responsible. I think the main takeaway & positive thing to focus on is that yes, for a lot of good-looking women who get approached a lot, there is always the possibility you can be a refreshing change. If you're willing to show disapproval of bad behaviour, or that you have standards, it'll again hopefully set you apart.

[Shemp]

Nothing wrong with paying to get what you want from women, as long as you do so in a business-like way. No money until services rendered (okay, maybe a cup of plain coffee on initial dates so you can sit down indoors). Money on the table in your apartment, spread out so she can count by eye. No touching money until after services rendered. State your business procedures clearly in advance at the first date. If she balks and walks, better to get rid of her sooner than later. Don't p***y foot around and pretend to be a normal guy if you are not. Wear the monger label like a badge of pride: "Cash and carry is my motto. I don't ask for charity, I won't accept charity, I pay for what I take." Makes life a lot simpler.

[flowerthief00]

I'm not a fan of men being reduced to the role of debit cards any more than of women being reduced to the role of hunks of flesh with holes, but that prostitution is a slight improvement over simping is one thing I'll say for it.

[HappyGuy]

I'm not a fan of men being reduced to the role of debit cards any more than of women being reduced to the role of hunks of flesh with holes, but that prostitution is a slight improvement over simping is one thing I'll say for it.

There are a lot of wealthy boomers in the west who have sugar daddy arrangements with college aged girls and they resort to throwing their money around to feel big. To them these girls are kids a third of their age but the geezers seem determined to turn the next generation into non-marriage material. And they don't just turn normal girls into prostitutes but very entitled prostitutes who are used to receiving unearned expensive gifts like designer handbags, diamonds and free vacations.

[Shemp]

Marriage is the ultimate form of simping, given current laws. And only some sugar babies are entitled. Lots of single mothers with reasonable expectations. Let some other guy pay child support without getting any sex. Much smarter for most young men to stay in the USA, earn a high western salary, pay a cheap single mother sugar baby for sex, then go Happier Abroad when retired.

[HappyGuy]

Marriage is the ultimate form of simping, given current laws.

The purpose of marriage is to bring up children in a traditional family. Some men get married to women they've known less than a year even when they don't plan any children. Which means they're desperate betas, most of these marriages happen because they want to "lock in" a woman. They'll be locked in alright when the woman finds someone better but poorer like an unemployed dirtbag who is 20 years younger, then things will get really fun. viewtopic.php?f=25&t=41705&p=330928#p330928

[mattyman]

@ Happyguy,

there's some really good points made regarding the sugar-daddying culture. Still I think those sorts of girls are just stupid bimbos with nothing more than looks.

@ Shemp re

Nothing wrong with paying to get what you want from women, as long as you do so in a business-like way. No money until services rendered (okay, maybe a cup of plain coffee on initial dates so you can sit down indoors).

Personally, I would rather be find someone to get to know, have things in common with, chemistry etc. rather than someone to get my dick wet who's nothing more than a piece of meat. This is the kind of the assumption that having a f**k and release is the be-all and end-all of interactions between the sexes and if anything, could be part of the problem.

Gynocentrism; talked about by Paul Elam & a Voice for Men. Defined simply as putting a woman's needs above one's own when not warranted or justified. Sugar-daddying is gynocentrism by that definition. Remember my point in my OP about the common problem women face (especially hot ones) of guys who they think are friends (peopel they're getting to know) and who disappear when they discover she's not into them in that way (or even not sure). This is an example of gynocentrism and how it's damaging men.

RE

Mens 'simping' behaviour discussed above. Viewing sex full stop as the be-all and end-all without any compatibility, that's part of the problem. The assumptions of 'what women want', especially what you hear from manosphere circles are based on 'what women want for sex/fantasy'.

There seems to be this assumption that what women want in a partner is separate from what they want in a companion. In reality BOTH are needed.

RE Happyguy, note of marriage

The purpose of marriage is to bring up children in a traditional family. Some men get married to women they've known less than a year even when they don't plan any children. Which means they're desperate betas, most of these marriages happen because they want to "lock in" a woman.

The purpose of marriage is to bring-up children. The 'some men get married to men they've known less than a year' bit both concerns me and endears. It concerns me 'cause people rushing & making bad choices because of worry that it's 'too late' without finding out whether they're truly compatible beyond shallow nonsense like liking the same bands, films and all that shallow rubbish (honestly, speak to people in pubs, you'll find a lot of people's relationships are that shallow). Still, this is another great topic worthy of further discussion. Much to learn.

Has anyone considered or given thoughts to the other bulleted points in my OP? I don't see them much discussed. Lots of tangents, which is really cool. Still, the other points are important. The reason I make this thread is that I observe too much 'black-&-white' thinking, and think there needs to be more 'out the box' thinking.

[Neo]

There's one thing that many men should consider but often don't: a woman's personality also needs to be screened, not just her looks. Preferably she needs to be a woman of virtue. And if a man wants this, he will need to pray to God to get a good woman.

I don't want a stuck up woman, for example, or some woman who's been with hundreds of men before me, or a woman with a bad attitude problem. I also think a man should beware of dangers, such as false accusations and other tricks, even when he has done nothing wrong.

The better women are probably more shy, reserved and very hard to find, because likely they are not dancing in clubs or going to bars.

As for online apps, it's likely that many of the "women" on those sites are planted in order to generate revenue from men.

[mattyman]

Privyet druzya

RE Neo

There's one thing that many men should consider but often don't: a woman's personality also needs to be screened, not just her looks. Preferably she needs to be a woman of virtue. And if a man wants this, he will need to pray to God to get a good woman.

Isn't it partly a numbers game?

I don't want a stuck up woman, for example, or some woman who's been with hundreds of men before me, or a woman with a bad attitude problem. I also think a man should beware of dangers, such as false accusations and other tricks, even when he has done nothing wrong.

Absolutely, especially if it's someone who takes their relationships for-granted (after-all, it appears that people like that are never lonely). It's wise to not think all women are angels who can do no wrong. Look out for that steely-eyed, insincere, manipulative look (example; an ex female friend who was one of the most two-faced people I've met).

The better women are probably more shy, reserved and very hard to find, because likely they are not dancing in clubs or going to bars.

Bingo.

You're more likely to find those sorts of women 'indirectly', both through avenues that are not aimed exclusively at hooking up and through people you meet through those other avenues; 'friends of friends' route. Isn't that how most folks meet after-all? A lot of the conventional narrative discussed in the OP might well apply to the type of woman that's whoring around. Then again, does everyone want that?

There was a beautiful, graceful and shy Lithuanian girl I met through couchsurfing meet I used to go to. Now, there was one time I accidentally ignored her through catching-up with people and unintentionally left her in that situation on the edge of the group feeling left out. Know that situation? At the end she came up to me asking if I would be there the next week. Still, I feel a bit guilty for leaving her out like that. Could have had a lot to connect with.

[Neo]

Privyet druzya

RE Neo

There's one thing that many men should consider but often don't: a woman's personality also needs to be screened, not just her looks. Preferably she needs to be a woman of virtue. And if a man wants this, he will need to pray to God to get a good woman.

Isn't it partly a numbers game?

I don't want a stuck up woman, for example, or some woman who's been with hundreds of men before me, or a woman with a bad attitude problem. I also think a man should beware of dangers, such as false accusations and other tricks, even when he has done nothing wrong.

Absolutely, especially if it's someone who takes their relationships for-granted (after-all, it appears that people like that are never lonely). It's wise to not think all women are angels who can do no wrong. Look out for that steely-eyed, insincere, manipulative look (example; an ex female friend who was one of the most two-faced people I've met).

The better women are probably more shy, reserved and very hard to find, because likely they are not dancing in clubs or going to bars.

Bingo.

You're more likely to find those sorts of women 'indirectly', both through avenues that are not aimed exclusively at hooking up and through people you meet through those other avenues; 'friends of friends' route. Isn't that how most folks meet after-all? A lot of the conventional narrative discussed in the OP might well apply to the type of woman that's whoring around. Then again, does everyone want that?

There was a beautiful, graceful and shy Lithuanian girl I met through couchsurfing meet I used to go to. Now, there was one time I accidentally ignored her through catching-up with people and unintentionally left her in that situation on the edge of the group feeling left out. Know that situation? At the end she came up to me asking if I would be there the next week. Still, I feel a bit guilty for leaving her out like that. Could have had a lot to connect with.

It's not a numbers' game at all. Every man gets his portion from God. It's just that the unbelievers do not know this.

[MatureDJ]

When I went to the supposed sexiest beach in the world in Kiev. I couldn’t believe not only how incredibly hot and in shape the majority of women were but the craziest part was that the men just couldn’t care less.

Hidropark?

[mattyman]

@ Neo

It's not a numbers' game at all. Every man gets his portion from God. It's just that the unbelievers do not know this.

That's understandable that you may see it this way. The root of the problem is a) lack of opportunity and social circles for folks to meet and b) those sorts of girls you and I refer to are comparatively rare among certain creeds (e.g. clubbing types, working classes). A bit of pragmatism isn't always bad.

I think the thing you said that I replied 'bingo' to regarding the better women hits the nail on the head.

Couldn't help commenting on this;

When I went to the supposed sexiest beach in the world in Kiev. I couldn’t believe not only how incredibly hot and in shape the majority of women were but the craziest part was that the men just couldn’t care less.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the Anglo countries were like that? What's being described is the flip side of England.

But anyway I think Neo, you've really hit the nail on the head on several points.

[Neo]

@ Neo

It's not a numbers' game at all. Every man gets his portion from God. It's just that the unbelievers do not know this.

That's understandable that you may see it this way. The root of the problem is a) lack of opportunity and social circles for folks to meet and b) those sorts of girls you and I refer to are comparatively rare among certain creeds (e.g. clubbing types, working classes). A bit of pragmatism isn't always bad.

I think the thing you said that I replied 'bingo' to regarding the better women hits the nail on the head.

Couldn't help commenting on this;

When I went to the supposed sexiest beach in the world in Kiev. I couldn’t believe not only how incredibly hot and in shape the majority of women were but the craziest part was that the men just couldn’t care less.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the Anglo countries were like that? What's being described is the flip side of England.

But anyway I think Neo, you've really hit the nail on the head on several points.

The status of Western women is exalted. They are given more abundant honor than women elsewhere. That changes things greatly.

But still, even if a woman is from outside the West, her character still needs to be evaluated to see if she is a good person. There are good and bad women in every country of the world.

[mattyman]

Hi again and Merry Christmas.

Yes, you have a great point regarding how the men couldn't care less in that example from Ukraine, over here in England men bend over backwards and GROVEL to women even if they're unattractive, rude or treat them like shit. I see this in the pubs and bars all the time. In the Anglo-American block a big part of the problem is that men are too afraid to say what they don't find attractive and to express what they do, Acknowledged. Paul Elam's article on gynocentrism makes some very important points as does his videos.

You're also right that there's good and bad apples in all countries and it's important to know warning signs to look out for from early on wherever you are in the world.

On the note I was making in the OP and also what you've brought-up, it's probably not as bleak re what chances of finding a good woman. The great take-away is by not being the 'mangina' ('nice guy' as in people pleaser) or the club douche (another type of mangina), it's possible for the right women to find you attractive, to be a refreshing change.

We all tend to think 'I like x type of woman, she won't be interested in me because she wants x type of guy'. Similarly, many of those woman might actually have similar thoughts; e.g. 'I like x type of guy but he won't be interested in me because he wants on those crazy party girls'.

The reason I made the OP was to give reasons to draw hope from & to encourage thinking outside the box. I do think some of the thinking re what women want is a bit too black-&-white.