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Discuss culture, living, traveling, relocating, dating or anything related to the Asian countries - China, The Philippines, Thailand, etc.
We've had a few threads on here about Filipinas and Filipina culture so I thought expats who plan on trying Thailand out or think it's a panacea for lonely single men may want to consider some aspects of the culture based on my long experience in living here. Just a few thoughts beforehand, I think Thailand does have a pretty good average population of attractive women who make for fun holiday girlfriends, expat "wives" (that last the duration of a work contract), or just p4p dates. So, if you are interested in p4p sex or short term relationships Thailand is good for this and that's what most of the country's reputation is based on.
On the flip side, I have paid close attention to the type of foreign men who typically marry Thai women and I noticed that very very few NE Asian men marry Thais on a long term basis. There are plenty of Malaysians, Singaporeans, Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese etc.. who come here for p4p fun and some maintain beautiful Thai mistresses but very few commit to long term obligations with kids and family. To me this is a major red flag since I find that NE Asian men who marry across other asian nationalities tend to seek pragmatic mates who make for stable and productive long term relationships (ie. Vietnamese) rather than Thais or Filipinas. Indeed this is true if you look at Taiwanese marriage statistics, a large percent of foreign marriages between Taiwanese men are with Vietnamese. I believe the relative work ethic, education, and long term stability of Vietnamese women better matches middle class NE asian values and to some extent probably western middle class cultural standards as well. The bulk of other intra-asian foreign marriages tend to be within NE Asian nationalities.
Even ethnic Chinese Thais tend to marry mostly other Thai-Chinese. To me this indicates a major adaptive cultural difference and the reason why this group is so successful within the country when surrounded by many negative cultural attributes.
Here are some things to consider:
1) Educated Thai women, even those from top universities, tend to be rather ignorant and non worldly. There's a distinct lack of curiosity or practical consideration for anything that goes beyond the Thai cultural bubble for the vast majority of Thais. You will find very few autodidactics or critical thinkers in this society. Books or in depth topical discussion is considered boring. In comparison to even your average American (who still does read) Thais don't read anything at all except comics and pop culture rags. You are expected to fully conform to their language and cultural standards which is a definite step down if you consider yourself a thinking individual. I'm not as extreme as Ladislav in his negative views of Thais but there is some truth in what he says about the ethnocentrism and relative ignorance of Thais.
2) Older Thai women (35+) have some truly annoying superficial characteristics out of any asian nationalities i've been around. They adopt the "hi-so" socialite type attitudes and expect to be taken care of by their husbands. Face is everything in Thai culture and women who marry foreign men expect a certain carefree lifestyle to justify the relationship to other Thais. Older Thai women actually become more high maintenance when they know you have sunk a certain amount of time and investment in the relationship. I see many older white western/Thai relationships with children that look absolutely miserable.
3) Thai women make poor mothers. The Thai mentality can be best described as mercurial and focused on self centered living. Thai parents who are middle class and above tend to be absentee parents. It's common for maids, housekeepers, etc.. to babysit their children well into their teens. Thai society cultivates ignorance and lack of discipline. They are generally hands free and don't put much thought in investing in their children. You find a lot of Thai children who lack mental development and stunted social growth because of this type of upbringing. If you read about world development statistics Thai consistently ranks low in I.Q. and educational standards at the secondary (PISA) and university level. The faults you see with Filipinos are inherent with Thais as well but i'd say Thais are marginally better off in some respects. The top university in Thailand (Chulalongkorn) ranks low in international rankings, at least equivalent to a mid-tier U.S. state public school. There are exceptions to this and they are mostly with the Chinese-Thai upper middle class whose maintained values are more similar to NE Asians.
4) Thai women adapt poorly in other countries. Thais tend to be very particular about their culture and even food. If you notice, Thais tend to congregate in tight knit communities when abroad who rarely venture outside this comfort zone. The lack of proactive adaptive behavior and ambition means you need to constantly be the anchor for them outside of their comfort zone. This is true if you take them out o the country into a separate Asian culture. Thais born abroad are different however but they are not considered native Thai for all intents and purposes.
5) P4P is heavily embedded in the culture, another poster said that Thailand has polygamist roots and this is true. That's why I think Thais transitioned so easily into an international p4p destination. Sex and relationships which hinge on material commodity are the norm. Wealthy Thai men accumulate mistresses and monger endlessly. Really top notch "attractive women" tend to adopt very westernized and materialistic attitudes in response. They know their value baht wise and many think nothing of sleeping around to obtain material comfort. Sexual libertine behavior is alright for fun and games but not good if you want a well adjusted stable woman to marry.
Great post. We need more LT residents abroad to introspect and post their perceptions on their host countries. I also appreciated Winston's recent post reflecting on the PI even though he was less polite and did not provide any contextual rational for the behaviors he observed the way you have.
Regarding what you wrote about Taiwanese overseas bride seekers tending to go for Vietnamese, I always thought there were 2 key driving factors:
1. Easier and cheaper to get a wife in a very poor nearby country - that narrows it to Vietnam, Cambodia, PI, and Indonesia
2. Preference for lighter skin tone, similar to girls at home - that narrows it to Vietnam, SP, China and other NE Asian countries, and to a lessor extent, Thailand
Vietnam is the only country which overlaps 1 and 2. Now China used to be a lot poorer and was also very popular. But Taiwan government made strict quotas for PRC wives and made the process more time consuming and bureaucratic so there was a strict limit on how many such women could be 'imported' each year.
I believe Vietnam women are popular with S. Korean bride seekers for reasons similar to those of the Taiwanese.
I talked with mainly Singaporeans about this before and they seemed to indicate that compatibility was much more of an issue. Thai women tend to be lazy, unrealistic, and their family members are sponges. This sounds very familiar with what men who marry Filipinas complain about. Vietnamese women support their families too but they are productive and more orientated towards being a good wife. They also aren't known for whoring, partying, or being lazy bums. I'm sure there are those types in the p4p service industry too but it's not an intrinsic part of the greater Vietnamese society like it is in Thailand.
Skin tone matters a bit but that's probably a push when we're looking at a pool of attractive quality girls. There's a huge variety of Thai girls who meet the NE asian "spec" so to speak, especially girls from the northern areas like Chiang Mai/Chiang Rai but the personality attributes are worse and will probably be even more so a few years from now.
All in all the best natural fit for NE Asian countries is probably still the mainland though which makes total sense since that's like dipping into the original NE asian pool. However, because of the one child rule and decades of male dominated births the gender ratio is out of wack there. It's too bad because if China had a female population average like Thailand does I imagine the vast majority of men looking abroad from NE asian countries would be marrying Chinese.
Interesting thoughts about Thai women. I also heard that Thai and sometimes filipina tend to be more on the lazy side and the families sponges off of wealthy relatives. I wonder if the male counterparts are the same. And if they are I wonder if this is part of the reason why the Philippines and Thailand hasn't really reach it's potential as a country.
My impression is that the males are the worst, at least among the poorer classes. I visited Issan earlier this year and the women seemed to run the show while men lay about all day, just like all the dogs around. But if a woman needed a ride somewhere, she would call out and one of the guys would magically appear at her beck and call. And if they went to a shopping venue, the guy would just stay with the vehicle in the hot sun while the women took their time inside.
Guys in these places tend to just be sperm donors. Other than that, they just hang around and drink.
That's definitely how it is in the rural communities. It gets even crazier when girls from Issan are recruited into the p4p trade and support their entire family unit. Most of the times though the p4p girls just live it up and blow their money on sleazy Bangkok boyfriends, drugs, and material shit before self destructing.
The Thai underclass is severely screwed up. Alcoholism is rampant in the rural areas. I can't blame the men too much though because they never learned what self determination is. The backwards education and cultural indoctrination keeps them in a vicious cycle of non development.
Adding some information,i would just say as my numerous trip and interactions with many types of Thai ladies,that Thailand is a great places to have fun,f**k around,or having multiple girlfriends but the western man who is looking for a true monogamist commitment,caution should be extreme in my opinion.
I witnesses so many ladies who were married with Thai men,effectively as typically in the poor countryside,the men most of the time is lazy and don't work,get drunk and hit them but on the other side,his ex wife,having children for sure,will very easily work as a bar girl without any trouble.
Sound extreme as position,but i've watched fresh farm girl in Pattaya as we say,they didn't have any day in the sex trade or worked in a bar,but most of them fit so well to sell their asses for some euros,that is almost like prostitution is natural to them.
Many bar girls who marry westerners keep this bar girl mentality and will want to have plenty of males available even if money is not involved.
Some girls in the countryside,and i saw it from my eyes, jump from man to man,use their pussies and work in a karaoke or in a brothel for Thai,as to be in the p4p trade like a normal process.
This is why,as having seen many things and experienced some situations,i think that if somebody is expecting some type of fidelity or high commitment ethics from a Thai woman(and more when they are from Isaan because the family is waiting the money)this will be difficult to find it.
So many ladies who give a try in the p4p are also burned by Thai men and they don't really care about what men are besides money and having a good f**k why not.
As for myself,i'm not looking what we could call a real love,or a real monogamous relationship.
It's very easy to meet woman and f**k them in Thailand,but it's also very easy to lose them and everything is over in one second.
Many western men have difficulty to understand how Thailand is different, especially regarding woman.
In the US for example, they don't even look you,are cold,arrogant and they totally don't give a f**k about subhuman males.
In Thailand,you can get plenty of smiles,get good sex,have it for cheap or even free,have great girlfriends so it's comprehensible why one man can lose their mind in Thailand.
Me too..how many times i have to correct myself or the tentation to open my heart too quickly will destroy me.
Thai woman have strong personality..they look sweet and available,caring and feminine,but they know what they do,they exactly know their agenda,they are very strong and don't give a shit about giving their pussies for that.
Just remarking about the Thai Chinese community in Bangkok,those who have some money,things can be less extreme and more as we know in other part of Asia.. the idea of commitment is maybe more serious but many of them aren't interested in westerners..they will take a Thai Chinese man.
So i just go their to have some fun but also,when my finance will be fine and that i can sustain a living for my child,i plan to impregnate one woman with whom i will feel some connection but that just it.
Not planning to find a lady who will love me like crazy,not planning to be in a monogamous relation but still to play around and play like Thai men do.
The only thing would be to be financially responsible regarding my descendant,she take care and i'm not asking more from a Thai woman.
That make me remind me last time,with a friend he asked me why so many Thai men wanted to be females and are becoming ladyboys?
Funny stuff,is that this guy have a ladyboy girlfriend haha.
Well..we were hanging around,and i say to him:"look..look..who is selling that,who is controlling the money,where are the males,who is in this office or in the shop..?'
Each time,he would tell me;"lady,females,woman,no males,where are the males?.."
Finally,he recognized that Thailand is very female orientated,males are more and more relegated to worthless job..what they can do?
Another guy,who is expat there long time,told me that family raise males like bulls,they don't pay attention to them as much as females, because females will run the show for everything.
And now,the situation are worst for Thai men,because to have a daughter for a poor family is a ticket to find a westerner or to work in the sex trade.
This mean money and more money coming from females, but not males.
For example, is far worst when a girl want to be a tomboy than a boy who want to be a ladyboy.
I asked this question many times to many ladies, and most of them said to me that.
Let's figure out why so many dudes want to be girls lol..we got the picture now!!
Also, you can't trust Thai women with your Star Wars collection.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -toys.html
It is so natural for them to prostitute themselves, seems like there is no stigma attached to it whatsoever and im not talking about bar girls here, even regular girls would do it for cash if price is right, the way they rationalize it goes something like this 'you are man and I'm a women and I need money to feed my family', thats all it takes for them to drop ther pants for some cash. Different matrix they live in.
Losing one head in Thailand ..I understand that meaning so well. I imagine this maybe the same in the Philippines. I visited Thailand awhile back and yes I could see why western men who have been ignored by western women than all of sudden go to a country well women smiles and pays attention to him.
It's not uncommon for expats to marry off bar girls. I hear different stories of the success rate for these types of marriages. Saying that...it comes down to comparison to western women....
WOuld a thai women prefer a middle class thai woman still make a better wife than a western woman?
Yes, some of them are cool, at least for awhile. But ultimately, the value differences Repat mentioned are likely to interfere. There are probably exceptions though if you look hard enough and get lucky. They don't all neatly fit into the common stereotypes. Real cases are sometimes a lot more fuzzy.
- My intellectual European friend dated a relatively simple Thai girl for several years and finally married her. Haven't contacted him for awhile but his gf/wife was always super easygoing (like him) and didn't cause drama or other problems. But intellectually, I found her boring. And her English didn't seem to improve over the years even though my friend does not speak Thai. Her family survived but didn't have much extra money. Likewise, my friend was actually pretty poor himself. Perhaps once she reaches 35 or so, will become more difficult as Repat suggested.
- One girl I dated, Thai Chinese, was very pampered by her parents. She worked in an office. After work, or if she went out, her mom or their driver would always come to pick her up. Sometimes her mom would just wait somewhere nearby for her. She was sweet and didn't have a bad attitude. But she had led such a sheltered life that she didn't seem to be in touch with the real world. She even had an paranoid fear of the sun and would avoid it like the plague and use an umbrella whenever she had to step out into the open. If I had stayed with her longer, I'm pretty sure I would have gotten fed-up with her narrow world.
- Another worked at a travel agency - Bangkok Thai, lived with her middle class father (mother deceased), strong work ethic, responsible and led tours at the age of 19, good English and conversation skills which suggested good eduction, interested in the world, etc. But she wasn't really very pretty, lol. I think she ended up going to the States for further study.
- I got to know one girl, a Bangkok Thai, as a good friend in salsa class. She drove a decent car and I think her family was middle class. She was 180 cm tall, very bubbly and social, and well spoken in English. She had a serious bf in San Francisco and the last time I met her was in Fisherman's Wharf so she moved over to be with him. I think everything was going great between them last I checked.
- Another girl I dated, Bangkok Thai from a business family, worked in their family travel agency. She spoke excellent English and was cool for awhile but ended up playing some frustrating games. Sometimes I felt she used me for help on her homework too. I got fed-up and distanced myself. Last I heard from her, she was studying at masters level in Germany.
- One of my Taiwan brokers married a Thai Chinese from northern Thailand and they live together in Taipei. She opened and runs a successful Thai restaurant, has a strong work ethic, and seems very nice and well adjusted to Taiwan (she's been there for over a decade already). I think he's happy with her. They don't have any children yet though.
- One of my bosses, an extremely smart and successful 6'2" Austrian guy who at a young age already had several years of experience in both Japan and Taiwan along with relevant language skills, opted to marry a Thai girl in spite of being based in Taiwan. I never understood that choice but then again, I never met his gf/wife. Perhaps she was a beauty pageant winner?
Nothing is impossible and perceptions vary. Maybe certain guys just vibe more naturally with the carefree and detached Thai mentality. And as some of my examples above suggest, there are some Thai girls who don't fit neatly into the typical prototypes. But most of my own personal experience supports the OP. Thailand is a great playground. So many of the local women from all levels seem to take to P4P or its more subtle forms like fish to water. But for affairs of the heart, I would definitely look elsewhere. I don't know about Vietnam. But I think a Chinese girl from SP, Malaysia, TW, or HK is a good bet. With them, I think its usually pretty easy to gauge where the relationship is going and the risk of a big surprise sometime down the line is much lower if you manage things properly. I think girls from China and S. Korea are generally better choices as well. Not really so sure about Japan though.
Yes, for nearly 3 years now and a large part in what makes Thai women tick is based on my personal relationship as well many many dates with regular girls as well as some experience with the p4p scene. There are exceptions as to how my girlfriend acts but that is mostly due to her middle class background growing up abroad.
I have met the lowest of the low, the middle class, and the upper-middle class women. There are very few girls here that have surprised me with anything about them mentally. Many of the women I tutor part time are also from solid middle class backgrounds as well. Thai women are very predictable in their "unpredictability" as well as their desires.