What does Winston think of Calvinism and its effect on American Culture?

[ArchibaultNew]

Hey guys,

I know Winston is fond of studying different cultures and religions. I wonder what is his take on Calvinim? Jean Calvin was a French Philosopher who was exiled to Geneva Switzerland. He's view of the world was the the World was full of "depravity" and "sin." And that some people where "chosen" and everyone else is "damned." He also believe in a "deterministic" world view. Where superior people simply succeed due to their superiority and poor people didn't due to their inferiority and their "innate" wickedness.

It seems Americans adopted some of his views and integrated them into their culture. For instance, it seems that Americans feel less empathy towards the poor since they see them as "lazy" hence the poor are damned and you can't do anything about them. Meanwhile, it seems that in more Catholic countries people will try to make policies to help the poor since they see them as victims of society.

What's particullary interesting to me is that while the Catholic Church views Natives as having souls and being God's creatures. Hence, trying to integrate them to the larger society, even if it was by "force." It seems Calvinist and some protestant groups saw them as "sinners" hence, their "downfall" was a punishment from God.

While not immediately apparent, Calvnism explains many "quirks" of American culture that are even abstent in other Protestant countries like Britain(Anglican), The Netherlands and Germany(Lutherans).

[fschmidt]

I love John Calvin (even though I am not Christian). Most people are damned sinners who deserve nothing but death.

[MrMan]

Hey guys,

I know Winston is fond of studying different cultures and religions. I wonder what is his take on Calvinim? Jean Calvin was a French Philosopher who was exiled to Geneva Switzerland. He's view of the world was the the World was full of "depravity" and "sin." And that some people where "chosen" and everyone else is "damned." He also believe in a "deterministic" world view. Where superior people simply succeed due to their superiority and poor people didn't due to their inferiority and their "innate" wickedness.

Where do you get the part about people being 'superior.' I have read bits of Calvins commentaries on various passages of scripture, and quotes from him here and there. I think he may have been of the opinion that God predetermined everything. At least, many Calvinists think that way. But the emphasis isn't on being successful with career, money, or girls. Calvinism focuses more on salvation and spiritual issues.

It seems Americans adopted some of his views and integrated them into their culture. For instance, it seems that Americans feel less empathy towards the poor since they see them as "lazy" hence the poor are damned and you can't do anything about them. Meanwhile, it seems that in more Catholic countries people will try to make policies to help the poor since they see them as victims of society.

I've seen this in some of your previous posts about Protestantism. I think you are making some wrong assumptions. The early sociologist Max Weber wrote about the Protestant Work Ethic. Protestants emphasized how regular, non-religious work, could be noble and righteous before God... that sort of thing... during a time when this was not emphasized among Roman Catholics. Perhaps partly as a result of this, economies of predominantly Protestant lands such as Germany and the UK began to prosper over time. The emphasis on work may have had an indirect effect on attitudes toward beggars.

Henry VIII passed a law that restricted giving to the poor and punished 'sturdy' vagabonds and beggars who were fit to work. That was 1526, after Henry's version of the Reformation had started, but this was the same year John Calvin split with Roman Catholicism, before he was a major cultural influence.

What's particullary interesting to me is that while the Catholic Church views Natives as having souls and being God's creatures. Hence, trying to integrate them to the larger society, even if it was by "force." It seems Calvinist and some protestant groups saw them as "sinners" hence, their "downfall" was a punishment from God.

I think you are getting your ideas from watching Hollywood's negative depiction of historical religious people... for Protestants at least. You might be drawing on real-life examples from Roman Catholicism. Am I guessing right. In one of the colonies, Massachusetts, I think, there was a man named John Elliot, who did missions work with the Indians. There were 'praying Indians.' One of those Massachusetts colonies was very much focused on religion.

[ArchibaultNew]

Hey guys,

I know Winston is fond of studying different cultures and religions. I wonder what is his take on Calvinim? Jean Calvin was a French Philosopher who was exiled to Geneva Switzerland. He's view of the world was the the World was full of "depravity" and "sin." And that some people where "chosen" and everyone else is "damned." He also believe in a "deterministic" world view. Where superior people simply succeed due to their superiority and poor people didn't due to their inferiority and their "innate" wickedness.

Where do you get the part about people being 'superior.' I have read bits of Calvins commentaries on various passages of scripture, and quotes from him here and there. I think he may have been of the opinion that God predetermined everything. At least, many Calvinists think that way. But the emphasis isn't on being successful with career, money, or girls. Calvinism focuses more on salvation and spiritual issues.

"These “Elect” were originally thought to be the only people going to Heaven. To the Calvinists, material success and wealth was a sign that you were one of the Elect, and thus were favored by God.

It seems Americans adopted some of his views and integrated them into their culture. For instance, it seems that Americans feel less empathy towards the poor since they see them as "lazy" hence the poor are damned and you can't do anything about them. Meanwhile, it seems that in more Catholic countries people will try to make policies to help the poor since they see them as victims of society.

I've seen this in some of your previous posts about Protestantism. I think you are making some wrong assumptions. The early sociologist Max Weber wrote about the Protestant Work Ethic. Protestants emphasized how regular, non-religious work, could be noble and righteous before God... that sort of thing... during a time when this was not emphasized among Roman Catholics. Perhaps partly as a result of this, economies of predominantly Protestant lands such as Germany and the UK began to prosper over time. The emphasis on work may have had an indirect effect on attitudes toward beggars.


The poor, the weak, the infirm? God was punishing them for their sins. I'm talking about a mindset, why Americans and possibly Germans and Brits tend to feel less empathy for the poor. This could also be analogous to the modern "incels" and other who are not successful they are "damned."


Henry VIII passed a law that restricted giving to the poor and punished 'sturdy' vagabonds and beggars who were fit to work. That was 1526, after Henry's version of the Reformation had started, but this was the same year John Calvin split with Roman Catholicism, before he was a major cultural influence.

Interesting find.

What's particullary interesting to me is that while the Catholic Church views Natives as having souls and being God's creatures. Hence, trying to integrate them to the larger society, even if it was by "force." It seems Calvinist and some protestant groups saw them as "sinners" hence, their "downfall" was a punishment from God.

I think you are getting your ideas from watching Hollywood's negative depiction of historical religious people... for Protestants at least. You might be drawing on real-life examples from Roman Catholicism. Am I guessing right. In one of the colonies, Massachusetts, I think, there was a man named John Elliot, who did missions work with the Indians. There were 'praying Indians.' One of those Massachusetts colonies was very much focused on religion.

William Simmons, "The Puritans who settled in Massachussets, Conneticut and Rhode Island believed that Indian inhabitants of these areas worshiped devils, that Indian religious practitioners were Witches and that Indians themselves were betwitched."

[MrMan]

Hey guys,

I know Winston is fond of studying different cultures and religions. I wonder what is his take on Calvinim? Jean Calvin was a French Philosopher who was exiled to Geneva Switzerland. He's view of the world was the the World was full of "depravity" and "sin." And that some people where "chosen" and everyone else is "damned." He also believe in a "deterministic" world view. Where superior people simply succeed due to their superiority and poor people didn't due to their inferiority and their "innate" wickedness.

Where do you get the part about people being 'superior.' I have read bits of Calvins commentaries on various passages of scripture, and quotes from him here and there. I think he may have been of the opinion that God predetermined everything. At least, many Calvinists think that way. But the emphasis isn't on being successful with career, money, or girls. Calvinism focuses more on salvation and spiritual issues.

"These “Elect” were originally thought to be the only people going to Heaven. To the Calvinists, material success and wealth was a sign that you were one of the Elect, and thus were favored by God.

[/quote]

I don't think you know what you are talking about when it comes to Protestants or Calvinism. I'm not from the Reformed movement, but I have never heard them say wealth shows that you are one of the elect or anything like that. I don't think you will find that in John Calvin's writings either. My mind goes to Puritan type thinking, and I think it was Emily Dickinson calling wealth 'pealth' and that sort of thing.

Max Weber, from a sociological point of view, argues how the Protestant emphasis on the idea that regular work could glorify God--- as opposing to have to take on holy orders and live as a monk or something like that (not his words, but you get the idea)-- contributed to economic success in Western culture. But that's sociology, not theology.

The poor, the weak, the infirm? God was punishing them for their sins. I'm talking about a mindset, why Americans and possibly Germans and Brits tend to feel less empathy for the poor. This could also be analogous to the modern "incels" and other who are not successful they are "damned."

I don't think this mindset is a part of the ethos of Protestantism. But the idea that it is ignoble to beg when you are able to work is found in English culture. It could have come from Henry VIII, slightly post Reformation. But Henry may have been using Reformation to try to get his marital, sexual, succession and family goals met, rather than doing it as much out of religious conviction. But more serious Protestants operated within that framework. The emphasis on the role of work in other western cultures might have had a similar impact.

But being a 'sturdy beggar' was illegal in England, not being unable to work and receiving aid.

William Simmons, "The Puritans who settled in Massachussets, Conneticut and Rhode Island believed that Indian inhabitants of these areas worshiped devils, that Indian religious practitioners were Witches and that Indians themselves were betwitched."

How is that different from Roman Catholic thinking on the subject... or reality? I don't know that all Native Americans worshipped demons, but in general, Gentile had gone off into the worship of demons before reconciliation with the Creator, the God of Israel. The Bible says that those that sacrifice to idols sacrifice to demons and not to God. Roman Catholic scholars might read the writings of authors in the first centuries of Christianity like Justin Martyr or Tertullian who both wrote of how that the pagans would consider certain individuals that had spirits in them to have the gods in them, but Christians cast these demons out.

About the 'bewitched' part... I am not sure what you or they meant by that. Paul asks the Galatians-- 'who hath bewitched you' and the Geneva Bible said the same thing as the KJV translation. I don't know if the settlers you are referring to thought of the Indians as being bewitched by women with green skin, a pointed nose, warts, wearing a big pointed black hat or not.

Latin and Germanic tribes worshipped demons, too, before Christianity.

Look at the name of this website: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... d-paganism

And a quote from it:
"But the most important thing we can take away from the writings of Justin Martyr and other early Church Fathers is that the Christians believed pagan worship was demonic in nature and not to be emulated—even though to do so might have eased the Roman persecutions."

None of this has anything to do with the idea that Indians were less human. There may have been people who felt that way, especially if they were at war with them, but that isn't rooted in Calvinism or the Protestant Reformation.