Negative changes you've seen evolve in developed countries

[BellaRuth]

Finally got the subject title short enough to squeeze in.

Basically I'm wondering what negative changes you've seen happen in your country in your lifetime. I'm sure we've all seen a lot of changes due to how fast the world is moving right now.

I often see people in general refer to old films (I'm a massive fan of 40's and 50's films myself) and nostalgia is everywhere. What is it you've seen disappear? What do you miss? We have such great advances in science and technology now, but what are the most important things you think we've lost along the way?

Just thought this would be an interesting topic.

[Think Different]

Excellent topic, Bella.

I often tell my wife that I was born in the wrong decade, at a minimum, and perhaps the wrong century. My country (the US) is no longer the great place of leadership, opportunity, and friendly honest people, as it was still to a degree when I was growing up in the 70s. If you're a fan of classic cinema, you may want to check out this forum, where it's all about "the way things were": http://www.fedoralounge.com

Anyhow, my wife and I are on the cusp of getting out of the US, not so much due to political reasons, but reasons of lack of opportunity, a failing economy, lack of trust of government, the ever-increasing tax burden (with nothing to show for it), and feeling like we no longer fit in socially. Plus, we have a child on the way, and with me being unemployed with no chance of getting a good job in the foreseeable future, we're about to pack it all in, and start over with whatever savings we can gather.

The US used to be a place where people were honest, trustworthy, a man's word was Gospel, and you could live comfortably from an honest day's work. Now you can barely survive on one salary at all, university costs are unaffordable, and the whole social framework has gotten nastier. As more and more people struggle to survive, the game has turned into "every man for himself". There is no longer the dynamic of neighbors helping each other out, looking out for each others' children, or even interacting in any "normal" neighborly way. When I was a child, we'd drive 5 miles away to the store, and we'd just leave the front door of the house open. And that was in a suburb of Washington, DC! We knew no one would bother us, and the neighbors would keep an eye out for us, anyhow. That changed in the early 80s.

There are certainly places of pure nature and simple, honest people left in the US, such as in the Northern Rockies, or Alaska, but good luck trying to find a job in those places!! Under the current administration, the president is doubling to tripling to size of the federal bureaucracy, basically creating a class of haves (civil "servants" who get pensions, etc, with limited work and no chance of being fired) and the have-nots (the rest of us who struggle to survive; small business owners have now been utterly disincentivized to create jobs). The US middle class is being obliterated, and most of it is becoming part of the underclass, the poor, and the downtrodden. It breaks my heart to go into the supermarket and see highly educated men/former professionals and executives now having to sweep floors and stack veggies, because the good jobs are gone and mainly overseas to China and India. As I told my wife: I can push a broom and have a crappy job in Italy, too, but at least I'll have a nicer, friendlier culture, with extended family to support us. Here in the US, we stand alone, with no help.

Am I bitter, you bet I am. I believed in America and what it stood for. Now, as I've gotten older, I realize that "America" is an ideal, which no longer resides within these borders. "America" is elsewhere, but I'm not sure where, yet. At worst, it is an ideal that I can help export abroad, when I get out of here.

[Winston]

In America we've lost social connection, communal friendships with neighbors, and family values in the past few decades.

I love old films too. They were more romantic. The acting and characters and music were better. They created moods too. Films nowadays are more about sensation and special effects. I like a lot of films from the 60's and 70's though.

What are some of your favorite old films? Do you like Westerns?

The advent of the internet though, has made people more aware of the rest of the world and of alternative ideas. That has been a positive. It sucked having only the mainstream media as your source of info.

People do not look as innocent as they did in the past. You can see this in photos and films. They seem more jaded now.

Families are also not as strong and close as they used to be. I think the last sitcom to have good family values was "Full House" in the 90's. The role models like The Waltons and Little House on the Prairie have been lost.

[Winston]

RedDog,
Many intellectuals say that things in the US turned after JFK was shot. After that, the people lost trust in their government, especially when the pointless Vietnam War started. That tells me that there was probably a conspiracy involved in the assassination. Otherwise, why would it be a turning point? People subconsciously must have know the truth, and that's why they lost truth in their government at that point.

Do you agree with that?

Btw, your link http://www.fedoralounge.com doesn't work.

[Think Different]

Pardon the bad link, I was pulling it from memory. This should work, instead. Let me know what you think:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/


The JFK assassination was a little before my time, but my personal feeling is that the Vietnam war and the whole hippie movement killed it for us. The hippies basically taught a whole generation (and now their bratty kids) that it's OK to disrespect everyone and be an individualistic/narcissistic moron, whose sole focus in life is self-pleasure.

I see the way the Italians live together and how they help each other out (granted there's too much gossip), but there's still a sense of community and reliance on each other. After all, the Italian government is a joke and has been since ancient Rome, so they can't rely on them. I USED to trust and believe the US government, but they've proven themselves to me, to be self-serving elitists, with very few exceptions anymore. Since we can't/don't/won't rely on each other in reaction to this (as the Italians, for example), what are we left with, but more "ever man is an island", "every man for himself", crap, which just propagates the same lie. Interestingly, I think enlightened Americans know this, since they also "dream" of going to Italy, and enjoying the social scene there. Under the surface I think they know happy American society is a facade, but they can't bring themselves to change it, or break out of it.

[Winston]

What was the hippie movement about? I thought it was anti war and anti capitalism and anti tradition? Was it pro spirituality? Didn't they preach love, like Lennon did? Isn't preaching love and peace a good thing?

[Think Different]

Here's a great thread about "what's gone missing" since the Golden Era:

http://thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=33982



As far as the hippy movement, I think that it was genuinely innocent at the beginning, but devolved into a drug-induced free-for-all that we still see today, especially in places like San Francisco. That was once a wonderful city, but has become a total cesspool, due to the drugs, lack of responsibility, and radicalism that came out of the hippy movement.

Sure, who can argue with peace, love, and happiness, but even Lennon later on admitted that it was a dream, not reality. You have to realize that the hippies are poseurs for the most part, who try to adapt elements of the old 60s hippy ideal into their lives, but refuse to live with the consequences of their actions. They are like little children who refuse to grow up or improve society. They basically stamp their feet and complain that "life isn't fair" and then hide in their little enclaves, instead of trying to positively and responsibly affect change in society. I do not consider violent radical demonstrations, where they smash personal property, as a sign of peace, love, and tolerance, but that is pretty much the norm for them today. They are more aligned to anarchism, than with charity. They hide in drugs to avoid facing reality, which only makes them more paranoid, in general, too.

I'm sorry, but the cultural ideals they try to emulate and promote (Buddhism, Hinduism, Zen, etc.) are not even lived in that way, in the countries themselves, such as China, India, SE Asia, Japan. People in those countries don't like slacker losers, who just sit around lazily either, and smoke joints. Sorry, but mature responsible adults don't act that way, regardless of the culture.

[globetrotter]

The Hippies, for the most part, were the lower class losers of society who managed to re-engineer society so that they could get laid just like the productive Alphas. Rock and Roll served this purpose as well.

During the Sexual Revolution this resulted in all of the Assholes, Users and Jerks being set loose on ALL WOMEN, and within a very few short years (1963-1970) all women became incredibly distrusting of men. Toss in Feminism which taught women to hate men and express it to them contemptuously and the division of the sexes was well under way by 1970.

Women were convinced to enter the workforce in droves. This drove down the prices paid for labour and increased the costs of education, housing and automobiles. Credit Cards began to become widely available in 1970 and this also began the increase in the price of education, housing and autos.

The really bad aspect has to do with morals and behaviour and this has really taken off since 1991 or so. Basically the attitude that Corporate Managers have is now the norm in most large USA cities. Los Angeles is the test bed for any new cultural movement and is the home of this attitude. It can be summed up with "f**k You. I got mine, now you get yours...". People now lie, dissemble and mislead as a normal course of social interaction in a way that only used to be encountered when you stepped foot onto a used car lot and spoke to a used car salesman. You cannot get a direct answer from anyone about anything anymore. Almost everyone parses their language like a lawyer. Just try calling customer service for your phone and try to get a direct question answered. Some firms still have some of the old values, but most do not. This new behaviour is marked by answering a direct question with an unrelated statement regarding something else.

I.E.:

I did not have sex with that woman. Monica Lewinsky.

What are the side effects of this treatment?
'Let's not concern ourselves with that...'

Why is there a $15 surcharge on my latest bill?
'I understand that you are upset...'

Upper class people and the wealthy and CEO's have always spoken like this, but now this method of communication has filtered down to the lower classes in the USA. Before it was tempered with values and a sense of right and wrong. With the rise of self-esteem education in schools you now get a will-to-power situation every time you talk with anyone about anything, at any level of society.

When you pair indirect and non-responsible statements of dissemblement with no values and lower class behavior you end up with what we have today -- millions of people lie on their mortgages and feel justified and then whine that their homes plummet in value. Then they just stop paying the mortgage. The bankers then sell this worthless paper to everyone else and skim off trillions in fees.

Everyone is gaming the system as that is the only way to make money. This is exactly what happens in corrupt Banana Republics.

I saw this was happening and thought that it was a terminal disease. So I left.

[BellaRuth]

I love old films too. They were more romantic. The acting and characters and music were better. They created moods too. Films nowadays are more about sensation and special effects. I like a lot of films from the 60's and 70's though.

What are some of your favorite old films? Do you like Westerns?

I don't watch Westerns, they're not very popular here anymore and kind of fell off my radar. Should I give them a go?

I love anything by Alfred Hitchcock. Really liked 'I Confess'. I adore Marilyn Monroe, especially Seven Year Itch and Some Like It Hot. I also love It's A Wonderful Life, watch it every Christmas with my sister's family. I've seen loads but these came to mind.

I'm going to answer this one from my point of view. I'm pretty young compared to most here, I think- I'm 24. But I've still seen a lot of changes.

I think I am one of last in Britain to have had a traditional, free-spirited childhood. I grew up in a small village and spent every day running around fields, climbing trees, going to the lake, stealing fruit (I know, but what kid even EATS fruit anymore?!) I could swim in the river and lake near our house- now, it's too polluted.

I look at children nowadays and they aren't let out the house for a myriad of reasons. The parents think everyone is a paedophile, they are scared of other children being violent, scared of the kid breaking a leg or getting lost, scared of the cars, and there's not many who can afford to live near the countryside any more. I know a lot of parents whose children just don't have anywhere to go, so they stay indoors and watch TV, go on the computer, etc. And there's so many FAT kids now. How does a kid get fat? They are meant to be active. It breaks my heart.

Incidentally my mother never felt the need to keep a close eye on me when I was off in the fields running around. It would have been paranoid. We all knew there were dodgy people about but we knew to keep our wits on us, never talk to strangers, etc. I still walked around at 10pm on summer nights with my friends aged 9 or 10 and it was no big deal. I explored every inch of the village.

Also, on the topic of children, they don't seem to use imagination anymore. They scream at their parents for the latest toy and they get bored of it and want the next one. I quite literally used cardboard boxes to play with. I made one into a doll's house, another into a car. I made up stupid games in my head, I was always busy. One of my favourite past-times was to make up countries, I drew really elaborate maps, designed flags and made up languages and alphabets, and wrote stories about them. If I'd asked my parents for a new toy they'd have either gotten me it for Christmas or said no, and that was it. Toys weren't that big a deal. And there was no competition between kids. I didn't know about designer brands for years and years. I didn't even know about music or celebrities until I was at least 9 or 10 which some people find hard to believe. I used to listen to the top 40 on a Sunday with my sisters but I didn't know about the different bands or care who was who. Nowadays girls about 5 know more about Lady Gaga than I do.

There was less fear everywhere. The media is getting more dramatic now. The laws are getting tighter over more petty things and looser over more serious ones. Also, again on the subject of children, they just care about money and fame. When I was younger I wanted to be a dog breeder (I was a bit unusual!) and my friends all wanted to be nurses, teachers, marine biologists, train drivers. I heard that children say they want to be strippers or popstars now. Seriously. I saw a documentary where a girl of 7 wanted to be a poledancer. They aspire to be glamour models and end up in the newspapers. Whaaaat?! I worked with children recently (I do a lot of voluntary work) and was really taken aback by their knowledge of celebrities and how much TV they watch. One boy kept asking me if I'd seen this or that and I hadn't seen any of the films, but I'm sure he mentioned some 15 or 18 rated ones. He was 10.

Didn't mean this to turn into so much of a rant.

Ah... kid's parties. Now it seems you need to really push the boat out and do these amazing gift bags and colour-coordinate the whole thing and hire a limousine. My mum just made me a hedgehog cake out of a swiss roll, with chocolate buttons stuck up like spikes, and a cartoon face, and everyone just ran around in the garden playing. And it was great.

I think there's a certain fakeness about now, too. I see photos of my sisters at my age (they are a few years older than me) and they went out in demin jackets, no makeup, fine. A lot of girls my age feel as though it's necessary to not only put on a trowel of makeup but use a lot of false things- hair extensions, fake nails, fake eyelashes. I know a few that simply won't go out without using fake lashes, for example.

Prices I have to mention. To get the house/life I grew up with I would, literally, need to be a millionaire now.

I think I'll leave it at that. Keep your opinions coming though, I think it's all really interesting.

[BellaRuth]

How about western women infiltrating a male forum that was developed for the sole purpose of distancing ourselfs from western woman in the first place. Subtle hint #1. [cough]

Ok.

I am actually going to leave this time, so things can carry on as they were before. I can't be bothered with all this drama. I didn't come here to fight or make some sort of point. I came here with specific questions about Europe, which I am getting answered through PM, so I don't need to outstay my welcome, and I'm not going to battle for it. Discussion on this sort of thing is unnecessary so it's not a massive deal for me to stop posting.

I think it's a shame, though, that this board is so exclusive. This site must generate a lot of traffic and I can't have been the only one to just pop up here looking for general info. All you see is 'Happier Abroad' and think, ok, that's what I was looking for. Other people who hadn't been in such a rush would look through, see that any non-American men are distinctly unwelcome, and turn away again. And I think a lot of American men would be discouraged by what looks like a really angry, judgemental attitude.

Also, when I realised the site was 'about Western women' I decided I'd better give it more of a read. I did- I have been to the main site now, and I still can't see any reason for all of this. Unless I'm missing something massive, I see:

- Man in America has bad social life, thinks everyone is unfriendly, and can't get any dates
- He goes to poorer countries, loves it, thinks its a great improvement socially and gets loads of girls
- He compares the attitudes in the different countries and thinks America is no place to live your life anymore

He just talks about 'human connection' and 'social fulfillment' and the difficulty of finding simple happiness in America. He talks about how everything is so driven by greed, mental health issues. I see comments from non-Americans talking about the negative social atmosphere in America- men and girls, even Western women included (am sure I saw a German girl's comment somewhere, and someone from France).

So I can't see why this board should be an American man's island, just because that was who the original founder was. What about other people interested in cultural differences and travelling? I've lost count of the number of times people have mused to me about poorer people being happier and friendlier. Are they not allowed to talk here just because they are women from the UK? Don't understand why. I am interested in relocating, but I was also interested in discussing the core things we are looking for here, the things these countries have that we left behind, and I still think that needs to be explored.

Anyway.

I do hope if another member comes along who doesn't fit in due to gender or nationality that they are given more of a chance to talk. I think you're turning away the very people who could be helped by this. Including average, decent men looking for a chance of a relationship overseas who don't want to be associated with this level of prejudice.

[Rock]

I am actually going to leave this time, so things can carry on as they were before. I can't be bothered with all this drama. I didn't come here to fight or make some sort of point. I came here with specific questions about Europe, which I am getting answered through PM, so I don't need to outstay my welcome, and I'm not going to battle for it. Discussion on this sort of thing is unnecessary so it's not a massive deal for me to stop posting.

I think it's a shame, though, that this board is so exclusive. This site must generate a lot of traffic and I can't have been the only one to just pop up here looking for general info. All you see is 'Happier Abroad' and think, ok, that's what I was looking for. Other people who hadn't been in such a rush would look through, see that any non-American men are distinctly unwelcome, and turn away again. And I think a lot of American men would be discouraged by what looks like a really angry, judgemental attitude.

Also, when I realised the site was 'about Western women' I decided I'd better give it more of a read. I did- I have been to the main site now, and I still can't see any reason for all of this. Unless I'm missing something massive, I see:

- Man in America has bad social life, thinks everyone is unfriendly, and can't get any dates
- He goes to poorer countries, loves it, thinks its a great improvement socially and gets loads of girls
- He compares the attitudes in the different countries and thinks America is no place to live your life anymore

He just talks about 'human connection' and 'social fulfillment' and the difficulty of finding simple happiness in America. He talks about how everything is so driven by greed, mental health issues. I see comments from non-Americans talking about the negative social atmosphere in America- men and girls, even Western women included (am sure I saw a German girl's comment somewhere, and someone from France).

So I can't see why this board should be an American man's island, just because that was who the original founder was. What about other people interested in cultural differences and travelling? I've lost count of the number of times people have mused to me about poorer people being happier and friendlier. Are they not allowed to talk here just because they are women from the UK? Don't understand why. I am interested in relocating, but I was also interested in discussing the core things we are looking for here, the things these countries have that we left behind, and I still think that needs to be explored.

Anyway.

I do hope if another member comes along who doesn't fit in due to gender or nationality that they are given more of a chance to talk. I think you're turning away the very people who could be helped by this. Including average, decent men looking for a chance of a relationship overseas who don't want to be associated with this level of prejudice.

BellaRuth

You are a brand new poster and a UK woman. This is an established niche forum purporting lifestyles and attitudes which I believe the majority of western women and even some western men may find offensive. Certain members may naturally be suspicious in the beginning given what they may have seen play out on other similar forums.

But so far, you appear non-judgmental and have already made some interesting posts. And Winston seems to love having you here. So if you are sincere and genuine, please don't just drop-off.

BTW, I don't think all the guys here are Americans. And even if they are, some have been born elsewhere (Ladislav, Winston) or spent a substantial percentage of their life outside of the US (I fit this).

[patex_]

Many intellectuals say that things in the US turned after JFK was shot. After that, the people lost trust in their government, especially when the pointless Vietnam War started.

The "pointless" Vietnam War? I wonder whether this is an informed opinion, and whether you really understand what the war was fought for. The Cold War was not some trivial thing, Winston. It was a global struggle whose outcome would determine whether a society would be free or oppressive.

Was the Korean War "pointless?" Many South Koreans would say otherwise. South Korea today is free and prosperous, while the North is a nightmarish, totalitarian hellhole.

And how do you think tiny Taiwan has been able to exist all this time, free of invasions by the Communist mainland? Or do you believe a takeover by China under Mao was preferable to a US security guarantee? Despite your complaints about Taiwanese society, Taiwan has enjoyed freedoms and a higher standard of living that folks on the mainland belatedly began to emulate decades later. The transition to a free market economy (and hence, greater personal freedoms) starting in the late 1970s was an implicit acknowledgment by the Communists that the Nationalists were right all along.

Vietnam was no different. South Vietnam could have been free and spared the agony of Communist tyranny, had it not been for the failure of nerve by the politicians in Washington, and their lack of resolve to face down Communism. Had the US gone into Vietnam in the early 60s with massive force like they did in Korea, not only would the war have been over far sooner, American society would have ended up far differently -- for the better. No anti-war riots, no bullshit druggie-hippie movement, no self-flaggelating about how "immoral" America was in Vietnam. The "pointlessness" arose only years later, when the war dragged on seemingly with no end in sight. Again, that was the result of weak indecisiveness on the part of both JFK and LBJ.

[fschmidt]

Here are some negative changes:

[Winston]

How about western women infiltrating a male forum that was developed for the sole purpose of distancing ourselfs from western woman in the first place. Subtle hint #1. [cough]

Ok.

I am actually going to leave this time, so things can carry on as they were before. I can't be bothered with all this drama. I didn't come here to fight or make some sort of point. I came here with specific questions about Europe, which I am getting answered through PM, so I don't need to outstay my welcome, and I'm not going to battle for it. Discussion on this sort of thing is unnecessary so it's not a massive deal for me to stop posting.

I think it's a shame, though, that this board is so exclusive. This site must generate a lot of traffic and I can't have been the only one to just pop up here looking for general info. All you see is 'Happier Abroad' and think, ok, that's what I was looking for. Other people who hadn't been in such a rush would look through, see that any non-American men are distinctly unwelcome, and turn away again. And I think a lot of American men would be discouraged by what looks like a really angry, judgemental attitude.

Also, when I realised the site was 'about Western women' I decided I'd better give it more of a read. I did- I have been to the main site now, and I still can't see any reason for all of this. Unless I'm missing something massive, I see:

- Man in America has bad social life, thinks everyone is unfriendly, and can't get any dates
- He goes to poorer countries, loves it, thinks its a great improvement socially and gets loads of girls
- He compares the attitudes in the different countries and thinks America is no place to live your life anymore

He just talks about 'human connection' and 'social fulfillment' and the difficulty of finding simple happiness in America. He talks about how everything is so driven by greed, mental health issues. I see comments from non-Americans talking about the negative social atmosphere in America- men and girls, even Western women included (am sure I saw a German girl's comment somewhere, and someone from France).

So I can't see why this board should be an American man's island, just because that was who the original founder was. What about other people interested in cultural differences and travelling? I've lost count of the number of times people have mused to me about poorer people being happier and friendlier. Are they not allowed to talk here just because they are women from the UK? Don't understand why. I am interested in relocating, but I was also interested in discussing the core things we are looking for here, the things these countries have that we left behind, and I still think that needs to be explored.

Anyway.

I do hope if another member comes along who doesn't fit in due to gender or nationality that they are given more of a chance to talk. I think you're turning away the very people who could be helped by this. Including average, decent men looking for a chance of a relationship overseas who don't want to be associated with this level of prejudice.

BellaRuth,
Hear me out and consider the big picture. I hope you won't really leave again. Your posts have contributed to a lot of quality content on here. Consider the following.

I think as a matter of principle, you should stand your ground, since you did nothing wrong nor said anything wrong. Therefore, you are innocent and merely the victim of prejudices by some members here, which even I didn't know existed. Think of it this way. Suppose you went to a school you liked, but some kids were bullying you. Should you quit that school cause of the bullies? Or stand your ground since you have a right to be there and they have no right to bully you? It's a matter of principle, pride and what's right.

Look at the larger picture here. Happier Abroad is not about men vs. women, or America vs. other countries, though those are issues. What it is really about is standing up for THE TRUTH, whatever it may be. The truth could be that many men have horrible dating lives in the US. Or it could be that a girl comes into a forum and suspicions arise simply because she is from the UK and is a female, so she gets unjustly accused of having bad ulterior motives. Whatever the case, TRUTH is the driving force behind this site, our movement and what we stand for. It's what drove me to create this site and write all that content. That and a desire to help people and bring exposure to it.

So I feel that as a matter of principle, you should stand your ground here, and not give in to prejudice and fear, which are at the root of ignorance. You have a right to be here too. And I, as owner of this forum, will do what I can to help. I will just remove disruptive posts like the one from Dano in this thread, or issue some warning to others not to cause disruption. After I send this post I will remove that disruptive post of his here.

In the past, there was a poster named Gordon who attacked every black guy who came into this forum, simply cause he hated blacks. I asked him to stop many times, but he couldn't. So he was banned. Every civil member has a right to post here. But to be openly hostile to someone just cause of their identity, race or gender, in order to repel them, is not allowed and is against the rules. In fact, that is the only rule here, which is very generous as there is no censorship otherwise. So I gotta do what I can do make sure this isn't a hostile forum to other members.

Here's what I think is going on.

Technically, there is no logical reason for anyone to be suspicious of you or your motives. What's going on is a combination of prejudice and territorial instincts, kind of like how gangs are prejudiced against each other and adamant about guarding their territory and turf. Some here hate western women, while others do not hate them, we merely hate the dating scene in our country. Those that hate western women see this forum as a safe haven to rant against them. To then see a western woman come here feels like a threat to them. It's emotional, not logical, since you have NOTHING threatening to anybody. And it's a territorial matter too, since they feel that "the enemy" is intruding upon their territory.

So you see, the problem is psychological, not logical. And as such, it's difficult to convince such people with reason.

Personally, I think you should stand your ground. Make them open their mind a little and see that not all Western females are like what they think, that there are exceptions, including freethinking intelligent girls like you. This will force them to compromise on their prejudices. And it will take nothing away from their desire to find happiness, love and fulfillment abroad either, because in reality, some really are happier abroad.

In the end, it would be a win win situation. This site and its premises will stand, while the guys here become more open minded and learn that not all western females are bad. See how that works?

So I ask that you not leave. Stay and stand up to the ignorance against you. And all will be good in the end

That being said, you are right that it is jumping the gun to lump American, Western Europe and Australia into one group in terms of women. They aren't all the same. And you are right that the home page and main pages of this site are not about "American men only". They are about solving loneliness and dysfunction by going to more fulfilling environments and cultures overseas. That could apply to men or women. Even some American women do not like US culture or feel alienated by it, so they go overseas or join some hippie movement. This forum simply evolved into a forum of men cause it attracted men who are tired of American women. But it was never a men's only forum. But most importantly, this movement is about TRUTH. And the truth is that you are innocent, have no bad motives or intentions, and are simply the victim of ignorance and prejudice by some here. And it's about fairness too. We have to stand for that too, otherwise we lose integrity and become a mere hate group.

Therefore, let fear and prejudice die out, rather than let it win. Think about it. Consider the big picture and all that I've said above. A person should be judged by their actions, not their identity, right? If you agree, then STAND UP for that principle, and do not let fear and ignorance win out.

I'm sure Martin Luther King Jr., who was a great man and fought against ignorance, would agree with me.

Anyhow, I will go ahead and delete the disruptive posts in this thread and in your introductory thread that questioned your motives. Then issue a warning in the announcement board against this sort of thing and against discrimination based on identity. Hope that helps things. I'm sure if you were me, you'd do the same.

[Winston]

Btw guys (especially FuzzX and Dano), consider this. BellaRuth has been so kind as to not judge us wrongly like some other hateful females would. Instead, she has been fair, open and nonjudgmental toward us. Shouldn't we do the same and be fair and not misjudge her in return too? That makes sense. Think about it. If someone is fair and does not misjudge you, then why would you misjudge them? Shouldn't you show the same attitude back, according to the Golden Rule?