Winston wrote: ↑March 11th, 2017, 9:57 am
Adama wrote:Winston wrote:Question for you guys:
So the Bible, at least the OT, does seem to condone getting wealthy or attaining material success, as long as you are righteous, hard working and virtuous, and you fear God right? So doesn't the OT condone what Joel Osteen is doing?
Unless the wealth was literally gifted to you, or you penny pinched your entire life, you're probably in deep trouble.
Jesus tells us at least two times about how HARDLY (as in hardly) rich men will enter into heaven, and that it is easier for a CAMEL to go through the EYE OF A NEEDLE than for rich men to make it into heaven. Can a camel go through an eye of a needle? That should tell you the chances that a rich man is righteous. It's nearly impossible.
Many Christians say that is a wrong translation, and that Jesus actually said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a man who TRUSTS in riches to enter the kingdom of God." So he wasn't saying that rich man can't go to heaven, but that those who trust and have faith in riches and worship money rather than God, cannot go to heaven. Haven't you heard this before?
How do you explain the riches of King Solomon and King David and Job? They were considered blessings from God as long as they were righteous. The book of Proverbs say that it is ok to be prosperous as long as you earn it or work hard for it. The Bible can be used to condone anything, even slavery. I'm sure capitalists agree with this. lol
I have never heard anyone say this is 'the wrong translation.' I mean you can look the verse up on BibleHub in Greek, an interlinear with the English down below each word if you don't know Greek. Unless there is some dispute about manuscript variants, I do not see how any knowledgeable person who studies this would say there is a 'wrong translation.' If there is something going on with the manuscript traditions, be free to share it. There just isn't a word in that portion of the passage that can be translated 'trusts riches' in that particular passage.
But I do think the lesson has more to do with greed, trusting in riches, etc. rather than merely ill-gotten gain. Greed can lead to ill-gotten gain.
Of course Jesus also said with men this is impossible but with God all things are possible.
On Joel Osteen, he is a bit controversial, though he is also popular. Some evangelicals find his messages rather light. He gets painted as 'word of faith' movement. I don't know that that is the case, but he is similar in that he focuses on 'success in life' type themes, at least from what I could tell many years ago when I caught a few sermons. What I heard wasn't __bad__ as I recall, but it was really light, and maybe it's okay to have some cotton candy and honeycrisp apples in your diet, but if that is all you get, you aren't going to be healthy. While someone might have an objection to something Osteen says, my concern is that the focus is light.
Another concern is he'll have people repeat some brief reductionist prayer about asking Jesus into their life, then tell them he believes they are saved from doing that, when he didn't tell them about the cross or the resurrection of Christ. Repeating a prayer has become a substitute for actually believing the Gospel and making a confession of faith in evangelicalism, and of course we see people urged to respond to the gospel with water baptism in the Bible.
Joel Osteen also gave some IMO wishy washy responses when asked about LGBT and Mormonism on TV in the past. Sex with the same sex is sinful, especially two men, which was a death penalty sin in the Old Testament like adultery, beastiality, and certain incestuous type activities.
