Why Asceticism is an immoral philosophy

[Outcast9428]

C’mon Lucas this is such an obvious act that it’s painful to watch. You’re acting like a 16 year old boy who thinks people can’t put two and two together. If you had so much primal masculinity and such a warrior spirit and are such a hit with the ladies because of that then why were you an incel for years in the UK? Also you told me you had autism and in my experience, I’ve never met an autistic guy, especially not one who was an incel, who is the kind of guy you’re trying to portray yourself as. You try to act like women are the same everywhere and then in the next breathe talk about Latina women being superior and that you get along so much better with them then with British women.

Not to mention when you first got to this forum you talked about the male underclass of society in Anglo countries who were deprived of sex and you talked about going to prostitutes. Believe it or not I have met a lot of different people in my life. I was on a college campus full of dudes who slept around like crazy and none of the guys I’ve met who actually sleep around and “exude primal masculinity” a lot talk this way. They all act confused as to why anybody would ever go to a prostitute.

This puzzle doesn’t fit together. There’s either something you are not telling us, you aren’t self aware of your true personality, or you’re lying about something.

I see that I've hit a nerve in you just because I spoke some harsh truths about your precious Asian girls which contradict the idealized image that you've created around them, but never mind.

I'm not sure exactly what you think that I'm lying about or hiding but I assure you that on this forum I've always been extremely transparent about my own life together with all of my flaws and eccentricities. Why wouldn't I be? This is one of the few places where misfits and eccentrics like ourselves can truly be ourselves without taboos or the need for self-censorship.

There really is no secret. No "puzzle".

I started off as a somewhat nerdy, socially awkward incel in a country which I didn't fit into at all. I was even a little bit prudish and had an uncomfortable relationship with sexuality. I was even a bit of a goody-goody strait-laced dude like you. But then in my early to mid 20s I began to realize that all of that shit wasn't getting me anywhere and so I decided to reevaluate my own values and conception of masculinity. It was a long process of self-discovery. I had always done martial arts but then in my mid 20s I got into MMA training and connected with a new kind of masculinity -- a more primal one. Through my MMA training I progressively gained more confidence and really started to come into my own. Not only did I develop a more masculine athletic physique but was also transformed over time on a psychological level.

I also spent a lot of time in Spain and Latin America in my early to mid 20s. In Spain and Latin America I always feel disinhibited, like I can just let loose and be myself. I began to experience a lot more social interaction than I normally would and most of it was positive. I gradually got more confident and was brought out of my shell. At the same time I became intoxicated with the Latin free-spiritedness and passion for life. I became much more like a Mediterranean or a Latino in terms of behavior and mindset and ditched my former nerdy Anglo whiteboi personality which was just dorky anyway and only held me back. Remember also that I speak fluent Spanish and speak nothing but Spanish when I'm in a Hispanophone country. I find that exclusively speaking a foreign language can facilitate radical change in one's own personality. So I completely changed over the course of a few years. I found myself much more forward with women (Latinas). I had even developed a bit of an edge.

The simple answer is that I changed due to my own life experiences and also a conscious effort on my part.

Now, I don't deny that I'm a curious case. I feel comfortable with Latin American women and when I'm speaking Spanish but I still feel extremely uncomfortable with British women and people from the UK in general. It's as though I can't function socially with people of my own nationality. It has to be with Latin American women and with Spanish as the medium of communication for me to do okay socially. I've had girlfriends in Spain and Latin America (all Latinas) but never in the UK. But I don't like British women anyway and don't even attempt anything with them.

I've never said that I believe that women are the same everywhere. Never. I observe clear differences across ethnic lines. In fact I only date women of certain races and cultures for this same reason.

You base your idea of how men who "exude primal masculinity" are supposed to be confused as to why any guy would ever go with a prostitute on your experiences with guys at some college of yours in America. Well I was living in Spain and in the Hispanic world plenty of guys go with prostitutes regardless of whether they are incels or not. Almost every guy I know has had at least one encounter with a professional. It's just a different culture.

I don’t personally know what it is you see in those girls you guys post. You and WilliamSmith have very black taste in girls.

We do, especially in the booty department!

Also I have never said that every woman of a specific race is a certain way. I said that certain preferences and behavior is much more common among different races. You’d have to be willingly blind not to see this.

I've experienced Japanese society myself. While there certainly are clusters of traits and behaviors within certain races, I think that your tendency to overidealize Asian women -- particularly Japanese and Chinese women -- could potentially lead you to disappointment.

You're damn right they're precious to me.

Don't you think if my perceptions of them were wrong that one of my Asian friends or my ex might've said "gee outcast, you really make a lot of overgeneralizations." Instead, all of them said the stereotypes are basically true. That includes both Asians who support those cultural tendencies and Asians who dislike them. One guy from Japan for example told me he really didn't like how "uptight this nation is but you would probably think it is a paradise." Ideologically, this guy was kind of like a Japanese version of you although he wasn't hostile towards Japan to anywhere near the same extent that you are hostile towards the UK.

I seriously doubt that I would be disappointed with girls from Asia given how many of them I've already talked to before. This includes Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Filipino, and Thai girls. Those are the ones I'm familiar with. One Thai girl I spoke to is exactly my type of girl. I know one guy who can spiritually read people and assess their personality and traits just by looking at their faces, he's shockingly accurate too, I've shown him people I knew from my past and didn't tell him anything about them and he nailed their personality to a T. Well he looked at the Thai girl who I told him had recently been dumped by her boyfriend, he took a three second look at her and said "wow, he is an idiot."

I don't expect every single girl walking around to be my type. I've already said this, I know liberal girls exist in Asia too. But generally the reason why a lot of Japanese girls go for foreign guys isn't because they view them as dominant bad boys but rather that they view them as sappy Romeos who will shower her in attention and affection all the time. Japanese girls who are dissatisfied with Japanese guys are not usually feeling that way because they think the Japanese guys aren't thuggish, dominant, and bad boyish enough. Its because a lot of them are too stiff and reserved even by my standards, they won't show affection to their girlfriend/wife even in a relationship, they are slightly embarrassed about holding hands or hugging in public and kissing is out of the question.

People keep thinking that Asian girls are enamored with white guys because the white guys are comparatively aggressive compared to Asian guys. But that doesn't line up with the fact that all the Asian girls I've met who had white boy fever seem to be enamored with old European/white culture rather then modern white culture. They like white guys who act like old fashioned gentleman types and who's ideas of romance resemble a Shakespeare character. And they always seem to go for white guys with a boy next door or nerdy look/personality rather then going for frat boys and douchebros.

[Lucas88]

You're damn right they're precious to me.

Don't you think if my perceptions of them were wrong that one of my Asian friends or my ex might've said "gee outcast, you really make a lot of overgeneralizations." Instead, all of them said the stereotypes are basically true. That includes both Asians who support those cultural tendencies and Asians who dislike them. One guy from Japan for example told me he really didn't like how "uptight this nation is but you would probably think it is a paradise." Ideologically, this guy was kind of like a Japanese version of you although he wasn't hostile towards Japan to anywhere near the same extent that you are hostile towards the UK.

I see that you're pretty triggered. Why? Just because I said something that contradicted your idealized notion about Asian innocence? I mean, you're that worked up that you even come on here telling me that I act like a 16 year-old boy and accusing me of being a liar.

Those of us who don't go along with your notion of Asian innocence aren't doing it to be mean. We just don't want new inexperienced guys who come here getting burned badly after believing in some unrealistic nonsense. Plenty of guys thought that they had the perfect innocent wife at first. Some of them even thought that she was different because of her ethnicity and culture. But they ended up getting cleaned and driven to the edge of despair all the same. Everybody likes to think that their own union with their significant other is somehow special and different from the rest. That divorce and ruin will never happen to them. But then reality hits them and their former naïveté makes the experience all the more bitter. Not trying to be a debbie downer, but guys have gotta be realistic.

You might say in return: But what about you and your Latinas, Lucas? While I do believe that Latinas are generally friendlier, more passionate, more free-spirited and more romantic than women of other races, I still don't see most of them as marriage material since I believe that most human beings are of low consciousness, irrationally selfish and not particularly trustworthy regardless of race or culture. But I'm not much of a monogamy hodler anyway, to borrow a term from our good dude @WilliamSmith.

Unlike you with Asians, I don't have a plan to sort through the types of women who are supposedly the most suitable for marriage based on some theoretical concepts. That even includes Latinas. If I do meet somebody for a long-term relationship it will be solely through a strong spiritual bond with that person that occurs spontaneously. That almost happened to me last year with a certain Mexican girl who's still a very dear friend to me. But other than that I'm not searching or planning anything.

I don't expect every single girl walking around to be my type. I've already said this, I know liberal girls exist in Asia too. But generally the reason why a lot of Japanese girls go for foreign guys isn't because they view them as dominant bad boys but rather that they view them as sappy Romeos who will shower her in attention and affection all the time. Japanese girls who are dissatisfied with Japanese guys are not usually feeling that way because they think the Japanese guys aren't thuggish, dominant, and bad boyish enough. Its because a lot of them are too stiff and reserved even by my standards, they won't show affection to their girlfriend/wife even in a relationship, they are slightly embarrassed about holding hands or hugging in public and kissing is out of the question.

If you think that primal masculinity means acting like a thug or some douchebag from a rap music video then you really misunderstand the concept. From what I've seen most women of all races don't like that. Primal masculinity in its healthy form means getting into shape, adopting dominant masculine traits and behaviors, and having a little bit of an edge that so many women find exciting and irresistible.

Think Johnny Lawrence from Cobra Kai. He's in tremendous shape for a 50 year-old dude, a baddass, knows how to kick ass, and has that somewhat roguish edgy aspect yet at the same time he has good principles and treats women with respect. That's why he's irresistible to the hot Latina milf Carmen.

[Outcast9428]

You're damn right they're precious to me.

Don't you think if my perceptions of them were wrong that one of my Asian friends or my ex might've said "gee outcast, you really make a lot of overgeneralizations." Instead, all of them said the stereotypes are basically true. That includes both Asians who support those cultural tendencies and Asians who dislike them. One guy from Japan for example told me he really didn't like how "uptight this nation is but you would probably think it is a paradise." Ideologically, this guy was kind of like a Japanese version of you although he wasn't hostile towards Japan to anywhere near the same extent that you are hostile towards the UK.

I see that you're pretty triggered. Why? Just because I said something that contradicted your idealized notion about Asian innocence? I mean, you're that worked up that you even come on here telling me that I act like a 16 year-old boy and accusing me of being a liar.

Those of us who don't go along with your notion of Asian innocence aren't doing it to be mean. We just don't want new inexperienced guys who come here getting burned badly after believing in some unrealistic nonsense. Plenty of guys thought that they had the perfect innocent wife at first. Some of them even thought that she was different because of her ethnicity and culture. But they ended up getting cleaned and driven to the edge of despair all the same. Everybody likes to think that their own union with their significant other is somehow special and different from the rest. That divorce and ruin will never happen to them. But then reality hits them and their former naïveté makes the experience all the more bitter. Not trying to be a debbie downer, but guys have gotta be realistic.

You might say in return: But what about you and your Latinas, Lucas? While I do believe that Latinas are generally friendlier, more passionate, more free-spirited and more romantic than women of other races, I still don't see most of them as marriage material since I believe that most human beings are of low consciousness, irrationally selfish and not particularly trustworthy regardless of race or culture. But I'm not much of a monogamy hodler anyway, to borrow a term from our good dude @WilliamSmith.

Unlike you with Asians, I don't have a plan to sort through the types of women who are supposedly the most suitable for marriage based on some theoretical concepts. That even includes Latinas. If I do meet somebody for a long-term relationship it will be solely through a strong spiritual bond with that person that occurs spontaneously. That almost happened to me last year with a certain Mexican girl who's still a very dear friend to me. But other than that I'm not searching or planning anything.

I don't expect every single girl walking around to be my type. I've already said this, I know liberal girls exist in Asia too. But generally the reason why a lot of Japanese girls go for foreign guys isn't because they view them as dominant bad boys but rather that they view them as sappy Romeos who will shower her in attention and affection all the time. Japanese girls who are dissatisfied with Japanese guys are not usually feeling that way because they think the Japanese guys aren't thuggish, dominant, and bad boyish enough. Its because a lot of them are too stiff and reserved even by my standards, they won't show affection to their girlfriend/wife even in a relationship, they are slightly embarrassed about holding hands or hugging in public and kissing is out of the question.

If you think that primal masculinity means acting like a thug or some douchebag from a rap music video then you really misunderstand the concept. From what I've seen most women of all races don't like that. Primal masculinity in its healthy form means getting into shape, adopting dominant masculine traits and behaviors, and having a little bit of an edge that so many women find exciting and irresistible.

Think Johnny Lawrence from Cobra Kai. He's in tremendous shape for a 50 year-old dude, a baddass, knows how to kick ass, and has that somewhat roguish edgy aspect yet at the same time he has good principles and treats women with respect. That's why he's irresistible to the hot Latina milf Carmen.

Because I’ve been through these types of arguments before countless times. People seem to really hate it when anyone points out how special Asian girls are. Their reasons vary a lot but people are incredibly determined to convince us that Asian girls are no different from other girls despite the fact that many of us with personal experience with Asian girls such as me and @MrMan can testify that they are, in-fact, much more marriage oriented and conservative in behavior and mentality then other girls are. Official studies back up what I’m saying as well. Even Asian girls born in Canada were half as likely as non-Asian women to have fantasies about sexual degradation, being tied up, running away with a forbidden lover and several other things. They also had significantly fewer sexual partners then other women do.

50% of women in Thailand and 40%-50% of Filipinas have only had sex with one man their entire life. Approximately 80% claim to have only slept with two or fewer. The numbers were not all that different from what the guys reported either so I don’t suspect there is a lot of lying. I imagine the Japanese and Chinese women have higher sex partner counts but I’ve still read that Japan, China, and South Korea have significantly higher scores on internal sexual conservatism then people from every country in North America, Latin America, and Europe do. The Japanese, Koreans, and Chinese are closer to Bangladesh in terms of desire to sleep with multiple partners then they are even to countries like Romania, Hungary, and Ukraine. The complete absence of hookup culture from the popular media of Asian nations also lends credibility that hookup culture doesn’t really exist in Asia. It’s more common in Japan and China because their culture doesn’t condemn it as harshly but a lot of their conservatism comes from genuinely having a lot less interest in casual sex then other people are.

Japan does need to work on promoting marriage more in their society but the reason why there isn’t more marriage there isn’t because they have a hookup culture that dominates over long term relationships the way America does but rather that their society emphasizes school and work too much and people are prioritizing it over family life. Thailand, Indonesia, and the Philippines are not like that. Marriage and family life is still #1 there while work is #2.

People like you just can’t accept that liberalism is not the status quo everywhere because you’re so accustomed to it that you can’t believe it’s possible to largely eliminate it. Liberalism has only been popular for the past 50 to 60 years. It’s incredible to me that people have such a hard time imagining that there might still be places on Earth where people still live the way basically everybody lived just 100 years ago.

And no, Latin America does not count as conservative. Latin American countries are notoriously promiscuous, especially Brazil. Latin American countries are quintessential examples of right leaning liberalism that is anti-feminist but sexually liberal.

[Lucas88]

People seem to really hate it when anyone points out how special Asian girls are. Their reasons vary a lot but people are incredibly determined to convince us that Asian girls are no different from other girls despite the fact that many of us with personal experience with Asian girls such as me and @MrMan can testify that they are, in-fact, much more marriage oriented and conservative in behavior and mentality then other girls are. Official studies back up what I’m saying as well. Even Asian girls born in Canada were half as likely as non-Asian women to have fantasies about sexual degradation, being tied up, running away with a forbidden lover and several other things. They also had significantly fewer sexual partners then other women do.

We don't hate it or at least I don't. Some guys including those of us who have lived in an Asian country or had more intimate experiences with Asian women just believe that the alleged specialness of Asian girls is often naïvely overestimated. I don't deny that Asian girls are generally more marriage-oriented and sexually conservative but that doesn't mean that those marriages are happy in qualitative terms. I'm familiarized with Japanese society to a large degree. Japanese women are not particularly affectionate, Japanese people themselves have told me that sexless marriages abound in Japan (in fact there's plenty of articles about this online), and Japanese society is by and large extremely materialistic and utilitarian and it's not uncommon for people to marry for purely practical reasons. Chinese women share some of these traits too, especially the materialism. I personally don't think that there's anything particularly special about these two nationalities of women unless you value a materialistic conservativism aimed exclusively at economic advancement and status.

Many Filipinas on the other hand are lovely. Filipinas are a good choice for dating and marriage, I'll give you that. Filipinas are not only generally marriage-oriented but also extremely passionate, free-spirited and romantic, much like Latinas in many ways. I think that a Pinay would suit you the best based on what you have told us about what you value in a partner. Filipino society isn't as materially advanced as that of Japan or China but it's certainly more joyful and has a better human aspect and, like you said, values family and marriage more than work together with Thailand and Indonesia.

Japan does need to work on promoting marriage more in their society but the reason why there isn’t more marriage there isn’t because they have a hookup culture that dominates over long term relationships the way America does but rather that their society emphasizes school and work too much and people are prioritizing it over family life.

Exactly. Japan is an industrial dystopia. It's not a healthy society at all. Just because it has a high GDP and produces awesome Nikon cameras doesn't mean that it's conducive to happiness.

People like you just can’t accept that liberalism is not the status quo everywhere because you’re so accustomed to it that you can’t believe it’s possible to largely eliminate it. Liberalism has only been popular for the past 50 to 60 years. It’s incredible to me that people have such a hard time imagining that there might still be places on Earth where people still live the way basically everybody lived just 100 years ago.

Sure we can. Ever heard of the Middle East?

And no, Latin America does not count as conservative. Latin American countries are notoriously promiscuous, especially Brazil. Latin American countries are quintessential examples of right leaning liberalism that is anti-feminist but sexually liberal.

Agreed. Latin America is mostly a right-leaning liberal society with anti-feminist elements. I've found that this kind of society is the easiest for men to gain access to sex. That's why it's the kind of society that I like the most.

[Outcast9428]

@Lucas88

I don’t consider Japan, South Korea, and China to be traditional countries. I consider them to be conservative countries but not traditional countries. Conservative countries by my definition don’t really have casual sex culture but they also don’t structure their society around promoting marriage and family life. A truly traditional country emphasizes these values as the most important thing. Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines are genuinely traditional countries. Japan used to be a traditional country not that long ago but I don’t believe they are anymore. South Korea went completely batshit. China oddly enough is the country heading towards traditionalism the most. Not their government really but it seems, like a lot of former communist nations, having a nation that devoted itself to work so much for so long has made them crave more traditionalism. It’s still not a traditional society right now but it seems to be moving in that direction.

All that being said, I don’t think it’s all that hard to find a traditional girl in Japan or China. It’s not like Western Europe and most of America where those kind of girls are basically extinct. Traditional girls in Japan and China would be a sizable minority.

Unfortunately every high GDP country seems to have gotten there by abandoning the idea that marriage and family are the most important values and instead emphasizing work, achievement, or even outright independence as superior to a life dedicated to family values.

Mainstream conservatives in the US are this way. Generally mainstream conservatives today seem to want society to be a balance between emphasis on marriage/family and an emphasis on work/achievement whereas the true traditionalists consider work to be secondary. We work to support our marriages and family but we work to live, we are not interested in handing our life to a corporation. And I think that’s why when it comes to social conservatism vs fiscal conservatism, mainstream conservatives typically end up choosing fiscal conservatism because unfortunately, when it really comes down to it, nothing matters more to them than money. Whereas a traditionalist would be fine with a policy that sounds kind of socialist in order to promote more marriage and families like with what Viktor Orban is doing with $30,000 loans given to newly wed couples.

[Pixel--Dude]

I read a quote once that said “if you’re ever questioning the morality of a certain action or lifestyle, think about what would happen if everyone or even just a lot of people did what you are doing. If the consequences would be bad, then what you’re doing is probably immoral.” How does that relate to Asceticism? I’ll get to that later.

Asceticism is basically a philosophy that denounces pleasure as a moral evil. Now there are two strains of asceticism one which is more moderate and another more extreme.

Moderate asceticism says that all desire is bad and that pain comes from desire for pleasure itself. This is basically what Buddhists believe. Ascetics of this kind will become hermits, isolating themselves to a tiny dwelling away from other humans, never marrying, forgoing basic hygiene and often fasting as well. The argument one may make in favor of this is that the desires of people may lead to the suffering of others, therefore the moral thing to do is to stop desiring.

The problem is that all this leads to is slow self destruction. It is a philosophy that essentially forbids humanity from building anything because building things reflects desire for some kind of joy or pleasure. If humanity stops building and stops reproducing, life in the universe goes completely extinct. It seems to me that this philosophy is just arguing in favor of passive self destruction. From what I’ve seen of people who accidentally behave as Buddhists… NEETs who have no desires or purpose in life. I can confirm that having no desires very much does lead to suffering because those kind of people are some of the most miserable people I’ve met. They are essentially people who are so scared of suffering they’d rather do nothing then encounter any suffering but their lack of desire and purpose in life breeds mental illness and depression which eventually leads to suicidal behavior.

Moderate asceticism is basically a passive version of extreme asceticism which argues that pleasure is bad and pain is good. Practitioners of this will deliberately hurt themselves, smear themselves in filth, become disgustingly unhygienic and fast in order to create as much physical discomfort as possible.

The question is, under the rules of this philosophy, isn’t the moral thing to do to create as much suffering as possible? If pleasure is bad because all it does is distract us from obtaining nirvana then shouldn’t practitioners beat each other up every day or even eventually murder one another after they have forgone all desires? Not for the sake of achieving or obtaining anything but simply to help one another suffer more and achieve nirvana? The implications of this philosophy when taken to their logical conclusion are quite frightening and basically turn everything we know about right and wrong upside down on their head.

Some people argue that asceticism reflects a saintly life but I personally think it has only been held up as such because it is a difficult life. I don’t think difficulty for the sake of difficulty really cultivates any virtue. Virtue is that which minimizes the suffering in other people’s lives and brings joy to them instead.

Meant to post a reply to this sooner. But I agree with you Outcast9428. Ascetism is indeed an immoral philosophy. Anything which is life denying and takes things such as the pursuit of pleasure and paints it as something immoral is itself an immoral philosophy.

When I turned away from Christianity, initially I thought that Buddhism was the better alternative. I used to think Buddhism was a religion all about staying positive and seeing the good in everything. I thought it was an ideology which encouraged the individual to become more wholesome. But, upon further investigation I realised Buddhism isn't about the beauty in everything, it is more a philosophy which teaches everything is shit and you just have to accept everything is shit and separate yourself from material desires to reach Nirvana.

Buddhism sets an impossible standard for reaching desire because even though we are conscious beings capable of deep philosophical thinking etc we are still programmed with biological imperatives and desires which override our conscious decision making. The need to eat and sleep seek adventure etc even sexual urges are all part of our core programming and it is impossible to deny them and live a life completely free of desire.

Besides, it is also an unobtainable standard because in the act of not desiring you are simply desiring not to desire. So we can never truly be free of desire anyway.

The philosophy of Asceticism is just another ideology of normalising and even glorifying suffering. Something the global elites are trying to push in modern society. Ignore all the suffering in the world perpetuated by greed and the innate lust for power. This is why they push so much of this "self help" bullshit and colour therapy and all that. It's all part of the philosophy of asceticism to normalise suffering and make people indifferent to it. When people become indifferent to the suffering of others it naturally creates a society which is lacking in empathy and compassion and further degenerates the values of modern society.