Four Extraordinary Aspects of Christianity That Atheists Can't Explain

[Winston]

Questions for Alex, my close Venetian friend who loves Jesus but is not a fundamentalist.

[5/10, 10:08 PM] Winston Wu: Btw bro. Someone in my forum asked me why i dont repent and return to Jesus again as a christian fundamentalist. I gave 7 reasons why i dont return to fundamentalist faith. What do u think? Are my reasons good? See below.

viewtopic.php?style=21&p=338020#p338020

Also bro is it possible to be a Christian without believing the bible is infallible and that all non Christians go to hell no matter how good they are if they dont accept Christ as their Savior?

[5/10, 10:10 PM] Winston Wu: Btw bro. I have a theory. The entity known as Jehovah god of the old testament must have either left or died off probably. Because if a god with a hot temper like that still existed today then everyone who curses god or takes his name in vain would be struck down by lightning. Yet ive seen many people curse god or take gods name or jesus name in vain but nothing happened to them. Doesnt that disprove that the OT god with a hot temper no longer exists or has left?

[5/10, 11:28 PM] Alex From Venice: I do believe that the best Christian doesn't have to believe that a man made artifact that nowhere is said has been written under direct dictation of God and where the originals are lost, is "word of God".
I think that attributing God's words to the Bible is sort of blasphemy.

[5/10, 11:29 PM] Alex From Venice: good point

[Winston]

Winston, you said the Psalms were turned into prophecies about Christ when they really weren't.

But before Jesus, Jews interpreted many of these same passages to be about the Messiah. Early Christian use of passages to refer to the Messiah is in keeping with the traditions of Jewish interpretation. Psalm 22 does predict a wound on the hands and the feet. And there is the suffering servant prophecy of Isaiah 53.

Check out what Dr. Bart Ehrman, one of the world's top Bible scholars and Bible critics, said about Isaiah's suffering servant.

https://ehrmanblog.org/the-suffering-se ... r-members/

https://ehrmanblog.org/does-isaiah-53-p ... and-death/

[Winston]

Winston,

Also about Gnostic books, the canon was pretty much decided on if you read early church writings way before Constantine. I believe it was Irenaeus list of books that was virtually the same with maybe a book or two missing.

Even if you look up scholars who don't have conservative religious beliefs or Christian beliefs about these Gnostic books, they are books written way later, in the second century or later. The criteria the church used to accept books as canonical was whether the books were written by apostles or their close associates (e.g. Jesus' family.)

About answered prayer and supernatural stuff like that, I've seen a lot of it. What I don't get is why you would leave your religion if God was answering your prayers? Why not just stick with it?

I've had really specific answered prayers. I was in a difficult financial situation and my shoes broke so that they were at a weird slant. So I prayed to get some brand new shoes at a thrift show for super cheap. I moved to this expensive city and I saw a sign for a thrift shop next door. I went out to look for those shoes I prayed for. I went to that thrift shop and saw a cardboard box outside the store. It had a brand new pair of New Balance shoes. Sure enough, they were just my size. The lady in the store said they were having a sale on shoes and they were $2. These were brand new. The guy had tried them out and didn't like the and donated them.

One time I asked God to speak to my wife about a list of 7 or so things, some stuff I don't think I'd even ever mentioned to her before. She was having some hormonally induced bad moods for quite a long time during pregnancy and it was hard to talk to her. A couple of nights after I prayed this, she wanted to talk to me, and walked me through my prayer list, telling her God had spoken to her about all these things. She was really penitent about it for weeks thereafter and it really changed our marriage.

I had a class mate in middle school who was healed from a very visible eye problem, severely crossed eyes, at church through the laying of hands (we went to the same church.)

I've witnessed lots of prophecies with details and when people get words of knowledge, including details they couldn't naturally know. I've even gotten words of knowledge at times to for people. So there is definitely a supernatural side to things.

I don't doubt there is supernatural stuff going on in other religions, but like the Bible says, the gods of the nations are demons. They can know stuff, and maybe even do certain things. I've heard of people going to the witchdoctor and negotiate to be cured of blindness, but the next month, the person comes down with cancer.

Yes there are countless stories of answered prayers and amazing healing miracles in the Christian and Catholic faith, in the past and in modern times too. They are well documented. Many have taken place in famous Catholic sites like Lourdes too.

However, there's one problem. Although people have been cured of cancer, serious diseases, arthritis, and even had broken bones heal, there seems to be a limit. It seems there's a limit to what God can do. For example, no one has had their limbs grow back or been raised from the dead (besides Jesus of course, assuming his Resurrection occurred) or reversed their gray hair after it's turned gray. So there seems to be a limit to what prayer or God can do. It's not unlimited like Christians think.

Also, how do you know these healings and answered prayers aren't due to hidden powers of the mind, like with ESP or psychic abilities? People in Yoga, creative visualization and Eastern meditation have been able to heal themselves too and alter their physiology and bodies in amazing ways. So it could be due to hidden powers of the mind.

What I don't get though, is this: If God is "all powerful" as Christians imagine and claim, then:

1. Why does he need angels to do his work? Why can't he just do everything himself?

2. Why did he need a Flood to wipe out the world? Why couldn't he just snap his fingers and make everyone he wanted to kill drop dead? Like Q from Star Trek could do? Is Q more powerful than the God of the Bible?

3. Why did God need to rest on the 7th day after 6 days of creation? I know this has been asked before and Christians claim that the "rest" is symbolic and to celebrate the Sabbath Day. But if that's so then why can't the Bible say that God "celebrated" or "took time off" that 7th day? Why use the word "rest"? Either way, it's just one of many Christian copouts.

4. Why does God need machines to fly? For example, in Ezekiel he saw Jehovah God come down in a machine with wheels and metal legs. That's clearly a machine or metallic craft of some kind. Erich Von Daniken talks about this in his books and videos about ancient aliens. See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5lVPUDRCN4. Many artists have even drawn Ezekiel's spaceship too. In several places in the OT, Jehovah God or Yahweh, comes down in a machine or craft of some kind. Why would an all powerful God need a space craft or machine to fly?

5. And again, why do miraculous healings have limits? For example, no one has ever had a limb regrown, or come back from the dead, or reversed gray hair even. This indicates that there's a limit, so prayer or God's power is not unlimited. Or the universe or hidden powers of the human mind are limited, if you want to call it that too.

Have any of you ever wondered about these things before? Christians can't really answer them. They just give copout excuses. You cannot defend or resolve the impossible or indefensible after all.

@Contrarian Expatriate have you ever wondered about these things too? Isn't it funny that Christians can never answer tough questions like these? lol

[Winston]

@Neo and @MrMan:

Have u noticed something about Jesus and devout Christians? They seem different from other spiritual groups and religions in one way. They seem to have a strong backbone in their soul, like a spiritual backbone made of steel. As if their spiritual spine was made of a rod of iron while people of other religions have no strong backbone in their soul, just weak sticks. Have u noticed this? Its hard to explain. Its just a feeling. As though there is truth inside the Christian heart and soul in a way others dont have. A conviction that is held up by an iron rod of steel. U know what i mean? Even if the Bible or Christian beliefs don't sound logical or make sense, you still get this sense and feeling. U know what i mean? Its like they have something very strong and genuine that others dont have. U can feel it and sense it in your soul. U know what I mean? Do u sense the same feeling?

Jesus Himself said that He is the truth, the way and the life.

That's been debunked. Saying so doesn't make it true, even if he did say so. I've explained why here already.

Why Jesus is NOT the only way to God - 6 Logical Reasons
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=31994

If the person who says it is the Lord, meaning God in the flesh on earth, then certainly what He said is true simply because He said it. He is God and one with the Father.

That's a fallacy of appeal to authority. It assumes that authority is always right just because it is authority and in power. By that logic, everything Hitler or Stalin or Mao does must be right too, because they were the authority when they were in power. You see how fallacious that is? Isn't that exactly what the Chinese communist government wants you to think? Authoritarian dictators want people to think that way. Why do you play into their hands? Aren't you just sucking up to authority, because that's what you want to believe? Why don't you move to China and tell everyone there that the government is always right, even when it's wrong, because it's in power? lol.

Either way, it's your opinion. There's no valid basis to believe that any authority, no matter how high up, is infallible or always right no matter what he does. It's circular reasoning too.

Let me ask you a simple question: What if God or the Creator came to your house, raped your wife and killed your children? Would he be right if he did that? In your book, he would be right right? Because authority can never be wrong, especially if authority is as high up as God. Anything he does, including raping your wife and killing your children, is right and justified. Right? Even if God said 2+2=5 he would be right too, because he's God. Do you see how mindless and brainwashed and zombie-like that is? lol. And 100 percent CIRCULAR too? Do you see the folly of that?

Mark Passio said natural law determines what's right or wrong, not an authoritarian God or dictator. If you have the light, or inner light, you don't need authority to tell you what's right and wrong. You should know it in your soul. Only those in the dark or those who are ignorant and lack wisdom, need authority to tell them what's right or wrong. That's what you don't get.

You see, Christian fundamentalism is for people who are lazy and don't like to think, who want everything to be oversimplified and black and white, and absolute. That appeals to some people. They want that certainty and simplicity. It fits some people's mindset and wish for the world to be super simple and narrow and black and white. But it doesn't make it true.

If you think about it, all this is obvious, but you are too brainwashed by fundamentalism to see the obvious folly and fallacy of all this.

[Winston]

Christianity is the most wickedly arrogant and toxic faith on the planet. Image the gall for any "faith" to teach that their small little club has the one true understanding of life and God while the others are unfortunately doomed to hell. That is demonic evil by any reasonable standard.

Further, only 29% of the world identifies as Christian. That means 71% of the world is by chance of birth circumstances, locked out of that glorious, magical club.

But it doesn't end there! Those 29% are all splintered up into competing denominations that hate each other and consider other denominations as fake or false Christianity. The United States has roughly 200 different denominations, and the world likely has 3 times that many. The good thing about that is they are eating each other alive and exposing the hypocrisy and hate of Christianity in the process which is a great thing.

Face it. Christianity is pure bigotry, ignorance, and evil. The sooner the world is rid of this repugnant scourge, the better. Islamists and secularists will one day round up Christians and line them up against walls. This day can't come soon enough, but in the meantime, just ignore Christians and their hate-filled rhetoric with which they try to intimidate others.

I've gotten Christian preachers arrested for breaching the peace and for public nuisance violations. I see them getting arrested around the country now for endangering their congregations in the lockdown. I will not be satisfied until they are diminished as a meaningful factor in Western life.

You can't claim that Christianity is evil and never done any good and is only 100 percent bad. That's an atheist lie that only retarded men with low IQ like Christopher Hitchens would spout. You are smarter than that. Of course Christianity has done a lot of good. It's transformed lives, been a crutch for many, prevented many suicides, reformed men in jail and given them a new start, built missionaries and schools in Africa and third world countries, given empty people a purpose to live for rather than commit crime and abuse alcohol, transformed people and turned them from homosexuality or alcohol and drug abuse, etc. etc.

It's definitely done a lot of good for sure, even if it's not infallible and is too closed minded and extreme and narrow and warps your mind and condemns people unjustly in its fundamentalism form.

You make a good point about the many Christian denominations though. That is another argument against it. You see, if the holy spirit were in each true believer, as they claim, and interpreting the Bible for them, then all genuine honest sincere Christians (not the fakers or posers) would all have the same interpretation of the Bible. But we know they do not. Even among the most sincere and devout believers. Why would the holy spirit give each one a different interpretation and divide them? That makes no sense and is inherently contradictory. No Christian can explain that away.

It's just one of many indefensible and impossible things they can't explain. Thus proving that fundamentalism is not infalliable or literally true. So you shouldn't have to worry about going to hell for not being Christian or accepting Christ as your Savior.

[Neo]

@Neo and @MrMan:

Have u noticed something about Jesus and devout Christians? They seem different from other spiritual groups and religions in one way. They seem to have a strong backbone in their soul, like a spiritual backbone made of steel. As if their spiritual spine was made of a rod of iron while people of other religions have no strong backbone in their soul, just weak sticks. Have u noticed this? Its hard to explain. Its just a feeling. As though there is truth inside the Christian heart and soul in a way others dont have. A conviction that is held up by an iron rod of steel. U know what i mean? Even if the Bible or Christian beliefs don't sound logical or make sense, you still get this sense and feeling. U know what i mean? Its like they have something very strong and genuine that others dont have. U can feel it and sense it in your soul. U know what I mean? Do u sense the same feeling?

Jesus Himself said that He is the truth, the way and the life.

That's been debunked. Saying so doesn't make it true, even if he did say so. I've explained why here already.

Why Jesus is NOT the only way to God - 6 Logical Reasons
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=31994

If the person who says it is the Lord, meaning God in the flesh on earth, then certainly what He said is true simply because He said it. He is God and one with the Father.

That's a fallacy of appeal to authority. It assumes that authority is always right just because it is authority and in power. By that logic, everything Hitler or Stalin or Mao does must be right too, because they were the authority when they were in power. You see how fallacious that is? Isn't that exactly what the Chinese communist government wants you to think? Authoritarian dictators want people to think that way. Why do you play into their hands? Aren't you just sucking up to authority, because that's what you want to believe? Why don't you move to China and tell everyone there that the government is always right, even when it's wrong, because it's in power? lol.

Either way, it's your opinion. There's no valid basis to believe that any authority, no matter how high up, is infallible or always right no matter what he does. It's circular reasoning too.

Let me ask you a simple question: What if God or the Creator came to your house, raped your wife and killed your children? Would he be right if he did that? In your book, he would be right right? Because authority can never be wrong, especially if authority is as high up as God. Anything he does, including raping your wife and killing your children, is right and justified. Right? Even if God said 2+2=5 he would be right too, because he's God. Do you see how mindless and brainwashed and zombie-like that is? lol. And 100 percent CIRCULAR too? Do you see the folly of that?

Mark Passio said natural law determines what's right or wrong, not an authoritarian God or dictator. If you have the light, or inner light, you don't need authority to tell you what's right and wrong. You should know it in your soul. Only those in the dark or those who are ignorant and lack wisdom, need authority to tell them what's right or wrong. That's what you don't get.

You see, Christian fundamentalism is for people who are lazy and don't like to think, who want everything to be oversimplified and black and white, and absolute. That appeals to some people. They want that certainty and simplicity. It fits some people's mindset and wish for the world to be super simple and narrow and black and white. But it doesn't make it true.

If you think about it, all this is obvious, but you are too brainwashed by fundamentalism to see the obvious folly and fallacy of all this.

Certainly it is appeal to authority, but it is not fallacious. If it were just any other man, I might agree with you that a man's declarations may be untrustworthy. However, that is not the case with God. That just means that you don't accept that God is infallible and righteous in all His ways. That's the real issue.

Also, I wouldn't make suppositions that God can sin at all.

[Neo]

Christianity is the most wickedly arrogant and toxic faith on the planet. Image the gall for any "faith" to teach that their small little club has the one true understanding of life and God while the others are unfortunately doomed to hell. That is demonic evil by any reasonable standard.

Further, only 29% of the world identifies as Christian. That means 71% of the world is by chance of birth circumstances, locked out of that glorious, magical club.

But it doesn't end there! Those 29% are all splintered up into competing denominations that hate each other and consider other denominations as fake or false Christianity. The United States has roughly 200 different denominations, and the world likely has 3 times that many. The good thing about that is they are eating each other alive and exposing the hypocrisy and hate of Christianity in the process which is a great thing.

Face it. Christianity is pure bigotry, ignorance, and evil. The sooner the world is rid of this repugnant scourge, the better. Islamists and secularists will one day round up Christians and line them up against walls. This day can't come soon enough, but in the meantime, just ignore Christians and their hate-filled rhetoric with which they try to intimidate others.

I've gotten Christian preachers arrested for breaching the peace and for public nuisance violations. I see them getting arrested around the country now for endangering their congregations in the lockdown. I will not be satisfied until they are diminished as a meaningful factor in Western life.

You can't claim that Christianity is evil and never done any good and is only 100 percent bad. That's an atheist lie that only retarded men with low IQ like Christopher Hitchens would spout. You are smarter than that. Of course Christianity has done a lot of good. It's transformed lives, been a crutch for many, prevented many suicides, reformed men in jail and given them a new start, built missionaries and schools in Africa and third world countries, given empty people a purpose to live for rather than commit crime and abuse alcohol, transformed people and turned them from homosexuality or alcohol and drug abuse, etc. etc.

It's definitely done a lot of good for sure, even if it's not infallible and is too closed minded and extreme and narrow and warps your mind and condemns people unjustly in its fundamentalism form.

You make a good point about the many Christian denominations though. That is another argument against it. You see, if the holy spirit were in each true believer, as they claim, and interpreting the Bible for them, then all genuine honest sincere Christians (not the fakers or posers) would all have the same interpretation of the Bible. But we know they do not. Even among the most sincere and devout believers. Why would the holy spirit give each one a different interpretation and divide them? That makes no sense and is inherently contradictory. No Christian can explain that away.

It's just one of many indefensible and impossible things they can't explain. Thus proving that fundamentalism is not infalliable or literally true. So you shouldn't have to worry about going to hell for not being Christian or accepting Christ as your Savior.

While in this earth, and although they may be Christian with the gift of the Holy Ghost, each person still is capable of sin. Getting saved doesn't turn the person into God; nor does it impart complete perfectly righteous behavior.

And the Holy Ghost will only be given to those who trust in Jesus by faith alone, not those who trust in their works to save them. So there are many Christians who are not saved and do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost because they've missed the mark, because they trust in their own works rather than Christ's finished and completed work for their eternal salvation.

I'd be careful of blasphemy. There is a certain type of blasphemy which God will never forgive. So it might be proper to omit any accusations against God.

[Winston]

If the person who says it is the Lord, meaning God in the flesh on earth, then certainly what He said is true simply because He said it. He is God and one with the Father.

That's a fallacy of appeal to authority. It assumes that authority is always right just because it is authority and in power. By that logic, everything Hitler or Stalin or Mao does must be right too, because they were the authority when they were in power. You see how fallacious that is? Isn't that exactly what the Chinese communist government wants you to think? Authoritarian dictators want people to think that way. Why do you play into their hands? Aren't you just sucking up to authority, because that's what you want to believe? Why don't you move to China and tell everyone there that the government is always right, even when it's wrong, because it's in power? lol.

Either way, it's your opinion. There's no valid basis to believe that any authority, no matter how high up, is infallible or always right no matter what he does. It's circular reasoning too.

Let me ask you a simple question: What if God or the Creator came to your house, raped your wife and killed your children? Would he be right if he did that? In your book, he would be right right? Because authority can never be wrong, especially if authority is as high up as God. Anything he does, including raping your wife and killing your children, is right and justified. Right? Even if God said 2+2=5 he would be right too, because he's God. Do you see how mindless and brainwashed and zombie-like that is? lol. And 100 percent CIRCULAR too? Do you see the folly of that?

Mark Passio said natural law determines what's right or wrong, not an authoritarian God or dictator. If you have the light, or inner light, you don't need authority to tell you what's right and wrong. You should know it in your soul. Only those in the dark or those who are ignorant and lack wisdom, need authority to tell them what's right or wrong. That's what you don't get.

You see, Christian fundamentalism is for people who are lazy and don't like to think, who want everything to be oversimplified and black and white, and absolute. That appeals to some people. They want that certainty and simplicity. It fits some people's mindset and wish for the world to be super simple and narrow and black and white. But it doesn't make it true.

If you think about it, all this is obvious, but you are too brainwashed by fundamentalism to see the obvious folly and fallacy of all this.

Certainly it is appeal to authority, but it is not fallacious. If it were just any other man, I might agree with you that a man's declarations may be untrustworthy. However, that is not the case with God. That just means that you don't accept that God is infallible and righteous in all His ways. That's the real issue.

Also, I wouldn't make suppositions that God can sin at all.

Ok but why is God infallible and always right? Can you give even one good reason? Why can't a creator be wrong? Can't architects or video game designers or construction workers be wrong? Of course. So why can't the creator of our simulation be wrong? How do you know God isn't just a computer programmer or alien running this simulation? You don't. You never seen the face of God. All you have is some ancient book with 66 books in it to go on. Do you see how baseless that is? No real foundation.

You said God can't sin. But in the OT he did many horrible things and killed many people, including women and children, and innocent people, sometimes for trivial reasons. He even turned Lot's wife to salt just for looking back. And killed a bunch of kids for laughing at one of his prophets. That's a sin according to the Ten Commandments. Just because God does it, doesn't make it right or not a sin. That's 100 percent CIRCULAR reasoning and you know it. So yes, the God of the OT did commit atrocities and was thus capable of them.

You didn't answer my question. Suppose God came and raped your wife and killed your children. Would he be in the right to do that? Would that not be wrong? Please don't dodge this tough question. Answer yes or no. If you can't answer this question, then your religion is not honest or stable and is hiding something. You can't get out of this.

[Winston]

You make a good point about the many Christian denominations though. That is another argument against it. You see, if the holy spirit were in each true believer, as they claim, and interpreting the Bible for them, then all genuine honest sincere Christians (not the fakers or posers) would all have the same interpretation of the Bible. But we know they do not. Even among the most sincere and devout believers. Why would the holy spirit give each one a different interpretation and divide them? That makes no sense and is inherently contradictory. No Christian can explain that away.

It's just one of many indefensible and impossible things they can't explain. Thus proving that fundamentalism is not infalliable or literally true. So you shouldn't have to worry about going to hell for not being Christian or accepting Christ as your Savior.

While in this earth, and although they may be Christian with the gift of the Holy Ghost, each person still is capable of sin. Getting saved doesn't turn the person into God; nor does it impart complete perfectly righteous behavior.

And the Holy Ghost will only be given to those who trust in Jesus by faith alone, not those who trust in their works to save them. So there are many Christians who are not saved and do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost because they've missed the mark, because they trust in their own works rather than Christ's finished and completed work for their eternal salvation.

I'd be careful of blasphemy. There is a certain type of blasphemy which God will never forgive. So it might be proper to omit any accusations against God.

No you don't get my point. I'm not talking about bad or fake Christians. I'm talking about sincere honest ones like you who are devout and true and sincerely seeking God and sincerely accepted Christ. Even among them, they do have different interpretations of the Bible. Show me otherwise. We all know this. You can't deny it. It's super obvious. You can't copout by claiming that most Christians are fake and the true ones will all have the same intepretation of the Bible. Everyone knows that's not true. Come on. You can't claim that. No way man.

Blasphemy? Did you see what I said to Alex above? The God of the OT, who clearly has a hot temper and punishes people a lot, clearly cannot be around still. If he were, then everyone who blasphemes Gods name or Jesus' name or challenges God to strike them down with lightning, would be struck down by lightning or something. But that doesn't happen. We all know that. Go outside and challenge God to strike you down with lightning right now and see what happens. Many atheists have done that on YouTube too. Nothing happened. So clearly the OT cannot still be around, if he ever was in the first place.

Also, suppose the God of the OT is not the highest God, just a powerful entity or demiurge, like the Gnostics say. And the God above him who created the universe is not the God of the OT. Then what? Then your point is invalid. Because then the God of the OT and the God who created the universe wouldn't be the same being. Do you see what I mean? Why do you never consider this? Your mind is so narrow and closed and small.

[Neo]

If the person who says it is the Lord, meaning God in the flesh on earth, then certainly what He said is true simply because He said it. He is God and one with the Father.

That's a fallacy of appeal to authority. It assumes that authority is always right just because it is authority and in power. By that logic, everything Hitler or Stalin or Mao does must be right too, because they were the authority when they were in power. You see how fallacious that is? Isn't that exactly what the Chinese communist government wants you to think? Authoritarian dictators want people to think that way. Why do you play into their hands? Aren't you just sucking up to authority, because that's what you want to believe? Why don't you move to China and tell everyone there that the government is always right, even when it's wrong, because it's in power? lol.

Either way, it's your opinion. There's no valid basis to believe that any authority, no matter how high up, is infallible or always right no matter what he does. It's circular reasoning too.

Let me ask you a simple question: What if God or the Creator came to your house, raped your wife and killed your children? Would he be right if he did that? In your book, he would be right right? Because authority can never be wrong, especially if authority is as high up as God. Anything he does, including raping your wife and killing your children, is right and justified. Right? Even if God said 2+2=5 he would be right too, because he's God. Do you see how mindless and brainwashed and zombie-like that is? lol. And 100 percent CIRCULAR too? Do you see the folly of that?

Mark Passio said natural law determines what's right or wrong, not an authoritarian God or dictator. If you have the light, or inner light, you don't need authority to tell you what's right and wrong. You should know it in your soul. Only those in the dark or those who are ignorant and lack wisdom, need authority to tell them what's right or wrong. That's what you don't get.

You see, Christian fundamentalism is for people who are lazy and don't like to think, who want everything to be oversimplified and black and white, and absolute. That appeals to some people. They want that certainty and simplicity. It fits some people's mindset and wish for the world to be super simple and narrow and black and white. But it doesn't make it true.

If you think about it, all this is obvious, but you are too brainwashed by fundamentalism to see the obvious folly and fallacy of all this.

Certainly it is appeal to authority, but it is not fallacious. If it were just any other man, I might agree with you that a man's declarations may be untrustworthy. However, that is not the case with God. That just means that you don't accept that God is infallible and righteous in all His ways. That's the real issue.

Also, I wouldn't make suppositions that God can sin at all.

Ok but why is God infallible and always right? Can you give even one good reason? Why can't a creator be wrong? Can't architects or video game designers or construction workers be wrong? Of course. So why can't the creator of our simulation be wrong? How do you know God isn't just a computer programmer or alien running this simulation? You don't. You never seen the face of God. All you have is some ancient book with 66 books in it to go on. Do you see how baseless that is? No real foundation.

You said God can't sin. But in the OT he did many horrible things and killed many people, including women and children, and innocent people, sometimes for trivial reasons. He even turned Lot's wife to salt just for looking back. And killed a bunch of kids for laughing at one of his prophets. That's a sin according to the Ten Commandments. Just because God does it, doesn't make it right or not a sin. That's 100 percent CIRCULAR reasoning and you know it. So yes, the God of the OT did commit atrocities and was thus capable of them.

You didn't answer my question. Suppose God came and raped your wife and killed your children. Would he be in the right to do that? Would that not be wrong? Please don't dodge this tough question. Answer yes or no. If you can't answer this question, then your religion is not honest or stable and is hiding something. You can't get out of this.

God can't sin because He is above it. He cannot be tempted to commit sin in any form. He made all things. His delight and pleasure are inside of righteousness, not within sin and iniquity. The temptation to sin can work on man, but it cannot work on God Himself, simply because He is much greater. Besides that, He is a master of Himself, with the fullest extent of self-control. How far is the vault of heaven above the ground? His righteousness is even higher than that height.

As for the people who were killed in the OT, let me say, if God can decide who goes to hell, then He can certainly decide when someone dies and how they die. He is the Creator and all souls belong to Him. There were no atrocities committed by Him (beware of such words against Him because it can reap trouble). The tribes that God drove out by the Hebrews had filled up enough iniquity to be worthy of their fate.

As for your question, the answer cannot be yes or no. Can wood burn while it is wet without an accelerant? Truth is, it is impossible and God would not do such.

[Winston]

You might believe in the existence of a God or not. There is no proof for the existence of a God. Might be, might not be.
However even if a God really does exist somehow, this is still no proof for any form of afterlife for you after your death.

Therefore the only way to know that a God exists AND you will be transferred to an afterlife is to die.
To die - with your body destroyed - and not to be back again and to talk later on about a 'Near Death Experience' which I consider as hallucination of a confused brain.

And the follow-up question is of course what kind of afterlife could this be? Religion tells us about a soul which will continue to exist after your body is destroyed - but after your death has the soul consciousness?

If my afterlife is like a stone without consciousness, what kind of afterlife is this....is a soul a dead matter or will my soul regain consciousness somehow?

So far not even one religious bigot could explain that to me.

I don't know about any soul which tried to contact somehow people still alive, not even one...this might indicate that there is no afterlife in form of consciousness at all. It means souls - should they exist - are kept deaf, blind, silent .... unable to act out of themselves.

If this is really the case, the existence of a God taking care of souls without consciousness is meaningless...

Actually there are proofs or evidences or logical arguments for the existence of God. They were formulated centuries ago by theologians and have been revised and expanded upon since. Just because you haven't read them or bothered to learn about them, doesn't mean they don't exist. It's a fallacy to assume that if you haven't heard something yet or don't know about it, that it doesn't exist. Especially when you didn't bother to do the research. The only issue is whether you accept the evidence for God or not, and how you interpret it. As we all know, different people interpret evidence or proofs differently, depending on their beliefs, bias and what they want to believe of course. No one is purely objective. We are all colored by our biases and beliefs.

You should familiarize yourself with the basic arguments for God by Thomas Aquinas and other theologians. William Lane Craig, one of the best Christian apologist speakers, does a good job of summarizing all the basic main arguments for God. See here.





As to an afterlife, same thing. There are arguments and evidence for it, but it depends on how you want to interpret it. Some of it is hard to explain away though. There's evidence in NDE's, reincarnation, paranormal phenomena, etc.

In the afterlife thread, I posted some lectures from Dr. Bruce Greyson and also Dr. William Guy that go over multiple lines of evidence for the afterlife and survival of consciousness. You should watch them and get familiar with them, since you don't seem to be familiar with them. For example, the evidence from veridical perception during NDE's is hard to explain away, and certainly doesn't fit the "dying brain" hypothesis of oxygen deprivation (hypoxia) or the "confused brain hallucination" hypothesis that you said. I'll post those lectures again. See below. Please watch them and consider them.

Dr. Bruce Greyson presentation on survival of consciousness.



Also check out this fascinating lecture by Dr. William Guy who presents 6 or 7 amazing NDE cases involving veridical perception (perceiving things while being outside of one's body) that prove an out-of-body consciousness that materialistic science cannot explain. I don't see how any atheist or skeptic can explain this away, except by denial only. Anyone who sees this will be forced to be more open minded about the subject.



Also Yohan, see this new documentary called "Science of the Soul" that goes over a lot of new and old interesting evidence for survival of consciousness. Some of what's presented will blow your mind.



After you see all this, then come back and discuss and let me know what you think. I don't know why closed minded people like you and CE and Neo refuse to take contrary data into account or try to explain it or make sense out of it? Why can't you consider data that's contrary to your beliefs, rather than ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist? Why can't you factor it? What ever you do, please don't pretend you never saw any of the above ok?

[Neo]

You make a good point about the many Christian denominations though. That is another argument against it. You see, if the holy spirit were in each true believer, as they claim, and interpreting the Bible for them, then all genuine honest sincere Christians (not the fakers or posers) would all have the same interpretation of the Bible. But we know they do not. Even among the most sincere and devout believers. Why would the holy spirit give each one a different interpretation and divide them? That makes no sense and is inherently contradictory. No Christian can explain that away.

It's just one of many indefensible and impossible things they can't explain. Thus proving that fundamentalism is not infalliable or literally true. So you shouldn't have to worry about going to hell for not being Christian or accepting Christ as your Savior.

While in this earth, and although they may be Christian with the gift of the Holy Ghost, each person still is capable of sin. Getting saved doesn't turn the person into God; nor does it impart complete perfectly righteous behavior.

And the Holy Ghost will only be given to those who trust in Jesus by faith alone, not those who trust in their works to save them. So there are many Christians who are not saved and do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost because they've missed the mark, because they trust in their own works rather than Christ's finished and completed work for their eternal salvation.

I'd be careful of blasphemy. There is a certain type of blasphemy which God will never forgive. So it might be proper to omit any accusations against God.

No you don't get my point. I'm not talking about bad or fake Christians. I'm talking about sincere honest ones like you who are devout and true and sincerely seeking God and sincerely accepted Christ. Even among them, they do have different interpretations of the Bible. Show me otherwise. We all know this. You can't deny it. It's super obvious. You can't copout by claiming that most Christians are fake and the true ones will all have the same intepretation of the Bible. Everyone knows that's not true. Come on. You can't claim that. No way man.

Blasphemy? Did you see what I said to Alex above? The God of the OT, who clearly has a hot temper and punishes people a lot, clearly cannot be around still. If he were, then everyone who blasphemes Gods name or Jesus' name or challenges God to strike them down with lightning, would be struck down by lightning or something. But that doesn't happen. We all know that. Go outside and challenge God to strike you down with lightning right now and see what happens. Many atheists have done that on YouTube too. Nothing happened. So clearly the OT cannot still be around, if he ever was in the first place.

Also, suppose the God of the OT is not the highest God, just a powerful entity or demiurge, like the Gnostics say. And the God above him who created the universe is not the God of the OT. Then what? Then your point is invalid. Because then the God of the OT and the God who created the universe wouldn't be the same being. Do you see what I mean? Why do you never consider this? Your mind is so narrow and closed and small.

Because once you get saved, then you know He is real. There is no God above Him. There is no other God. And as you know by now, there is no such thing as "the universe." The stars just rotate within the firmament.

God saves up His wrath for the day of the person's death. That's when evil people will finally "know" that God is real, that He is the boss, and that He owns every soul. So speaking against Him during this life may not bring visible results. Besides that, God doesn't openly reveal Himself to unbelievers (usually) by such wonders and miracles. Lightning striking a person who blasphemes would be too much proof.

Every person is an individual. People usually agree on most of the fundamentals, but not every believer has the same level or knowledge of the gospel or of the truth.

[Winston]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/jesus-really ... 03705.html
What Jesus Really Said About Heaven and Hell

Interesting article and interesting follow-up comments....

Wow that's an excerpt by Dr. Bart Ehrman from his new book "Heaven and Hell". It's interesting that Jesus never spoke of hell as a place of eternal torment, and that some of the original words for hell from Greek meant something else than the modern Christian idea of it. Fascinating. You all should read the article above.

[Winston]

Blasphemy? Did you see what I said to Alex above? The God of the OT, who clearly has a hot temper and punishes people a lot, clearly cannot be around still. If he were, then everyone who blasphemes Gods name or Jesus' name or challenges God to strike them down with lightning, would be struck down by lightning or something. But that doesn't happen. We all know that. Go outside and challenge God to strike you down with lightning right now and see what happens. Many atheists have done that on YouTube too. Nothing happened. So clearly the OT cannot still be around, if he ever was in the first place.

Also, suppose the God of the OT is not the highest God, just a powerful entity or demiurge, like the Gnostics say. And the God above him who created the universe is not the God of the OT. Then what? Then your point is invalid. Because then the God of the OT and the God who created the universe wouldn't be the same being. Do you see what I mean? Why do you never consider this? Your mind is so narrow and closed and small.

Because once you get saved, then you know He is real. There is no God above Him. There is no other God. And as you know by now, there is no such thing as "the universe." The stars just rotate within the firmament.

God saves up His wrath for the day of the person's death. That's when evil people will finally "know" that God is real, that He is the boss, and that He owns every soul. So speaking against Him during this life may not bring visible results. Besides that, God doesn't openly reveal Himself to unbelievers (usually) by such wonders and miracles. Lightning striking a person who blasphemes would be too much proof.

Every person is an individual. People usually agree on most of the fundamentals, but not every believer has the same level or knowledge of the gospel or of the truth.

And how do you know all this? Did God tell you? Because of an ancient book written by men called The Bible that contains 66 books written by men? lol. Is that how you know? How do you know God agrees with you? When did he tell you that? Through a book written by men? lol. Do you see how illogical, ludicrous and nonsensical and inaccurate that is? Do you ever think?

[Contrarian Expatriate]

Christianity is the most wickedly arrogant and toxic faith on the planet. Image the gall for any "faith" to teach that their small little club has the one true understanding of life and God while the others are unfortunately doomed to hell. That is demonic evil by any reasonable standard.

Further, only 29% of the world identifies as Christian. That means 71% of the world is by chance of birth circumstances, locked out of that glorious, magical club.

But it doesn't end there! Those 29% are all splintered up into competing denominations that hate each other and consider other denominations as fake or false Christianity. The United States has roughly 200 different denominations, and the world likely has 3 times that many. The good thing about that is they are eating each other alive and exposing the hypocrisy and hate of Christianity in the process which is a great thing.

Face it. Christianity is pure bigotry, ignorance, and evil. The sooner the world is rid of this repugnant scourge, the better. Islamists and secularists will one day round up Christians and line them up against walls. This day can't come soon enough, but in the meantime, just ignore Christians and their hate-filled rhetoric with which they try to intimidate others.

I've gotten Christian preachers arrested for breaching the peace and for public nuisance violations. I see them getting arrested around the country now for endangering their congregations in the lockdown. I will not be satisfied until they are diminished as a meaningful factor in Western life.

You can't claim that Christianity is evil and never done any good and is only 100 percent bad. That's an atheist lie that only retarded men with low IQ like Christopher Hitchens would spout. You are smarter than that. Of course Christianity has done a lot of good. It's transformed lives, been a crutch for many, prevented many suicides, reformed men in jail and given them a new start, built missionaries and schools in Africa and third world countries, given empty people a purpose to live for rather than commit crime and abuse alcohol, transformed people and turned them from homosexuality or alcohol and drug abuse, etc. etc.

That is a straw man argument because I never said that it is 100% bad and it never did any good. But the the negative things it represents outweigh the few positive things.

Also, Christianity did NOT build all those things. Individuals who just happened to be Christian built them to gain acceptance in third world countries. They were simply purchasing people‘s favorable view of the faith since the doctrines alone could never hope to do.

When smiling drug dealers give out free drugs and Thanksgiving turkeys to children, it is never out of pure altruism. It is out of self interest which reveals itself later.