Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?

[MrMan]

What do you mean about Philo? I haven't read his works. But every historian agrees that Philo wrote nothing about Jesus. Do you have evidence to the contrary? If so can I see it? Where did Philo mention Jesus? Saying "the word of God" can mean many things.

I am not aware of Philo, who lived in Egypt, writing a history of first century Judea. He wrote about ancient Israelite history. Philo's teaching on the word of God is similar to Christian theology on the Word of God, for example in John 1.

As far as I know, there is only one passage in Josephus about Jesus. Where is the other?

Josephus mentioned James as the brother of Jesus.

If Jesus never said the Bible is God's word, and you agree, then who or what makes the Bible into God's word? You've never answered that and you keep dodging that question.

You are the one talking about the Bible as the word of God, and asking me to defend it. Jesus sent the apostles, and the apostles describe the message they preached as 'the word of God'. Jesus preaching is also called the word of God.

[Winston]

Why Did the Catholic Church Invent Corporeal Jesus? African Spirituality vs Christianity



The African spirituality concept of Krst existed thousands of years before Christianity. The Catholic Church changed the Idea to something different than the original concept when they historicized Jesus. But why did they do it? This video will give you documented reasons why the Church had to make Jesus a flesh and blood person.

0:00 Introduction
1:23 Thesis Statement
3:47 What was the ancient meaning of KRST before the Catholic Church?
6:20 When did the Catholic Church make Jesus God and man?
7:14 What type of person did the early Catholic Church want to recruit?
8:33 What did early Christian fathers want their followers to believe?
10:04 Why did the Catholic Church version of Christianity win over the many others?
10:31 What did the ancient Egyptians and Gnostics believe about the soul?
11:14 What function did the Kemetic principle of KRST express in ancient times?
14:35 How did the historical Jesus serve the needs of the Catholic Church?
15:26 What was the political reason the early church needed to invent corporeal Jesus?
16:58 What proclamations were made at the Council of Nicaea that forever separated the church from its Gnostic roots?
17:57 What Gnostic beliefs caused the Catholic Church to want to separate itself from Gnostics?
18:25 What was the doctrine that came from separating from Gnostics and why?
19:46 The claim the Catholic Church made to make Jesus gain power
20:12 The timing of the Council of Nicaea
21:55 How did the Gnostics and people of the time feel about the resurrection of Jesus?
22:37 What claim did the Church make at the Council of Nicaea that gives the Pope his power?
24:07 What is a unique concept that only Christianity claims?

[Winston]

What do you mean about Philo? I haven't read his works. But every historian agrees that Philo wrote nothing about Jesus. Do you have evidence to the contrary? If so can I see it? Where did Philo mention Jesus? Saying "the word of God" can mean many things.

I am not aware of Philo, who lived in Egypt, writing a history of first century Judea. He wrote about ancient Israelite history. Philo's teaching on the word of God is similar to Christian theology on the Word of God, for example in John 1.

As far as I know, there is only one passage in Josephus about Jesus. Where is the other?

Josephus mentioned James as the brother of Jesus.

If Jesus never said the Bible is God's word, and you agree, then who or what makes the Bible into God's word? You've never answered that and you keep dodging that question.

You are the one talking about the Bible as the word of God, and asking me to defend it. Jesus sent the apostles, and the apostles describe the message they preached as 'the word of God'. Jesus preaching is also called the word of God.

What do you mean? Are you saying that Bible is not the word of God? What kind of Christian are you? Come on, we all know what you believe. Why deny it? Why aren't you answering my question?

What would a top Christian apologist like William Lane Craig say about my question?

Well Philo wrote a bunch of stuff about the OT. Why did he never mention Jesus?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo#Works

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/philo/#HisWork

[Winston]

To the black guy promoting African spirituality above:

I got a question. When was Jesus invented exactly? If Jesus was invented in 70 AD, why didn't people at the time say "Hey I was around in 33 AD in Judea and I don't remember anyone named Jesus"? Chris White pointed that out in his video refuting Caesar's Messiah. Also, every religion has to have a founder right? You can't just invent a man out of thin air right? Because a hoax has no power and only lasts a few days, not 2000 years right? What do you think? Also most secular scholars and historians believe in a historical Jesus. So they must have some basis for that right? Also, why would Christians die for something that was made up? Weren't they fed to the lions by Nero?

[Winston]

Jesus is Sun allegory and most likely never existed. See why here:

[madsenax]

This is a topic that should not be discussed in companies because everyone has their own opinion about religion and the characters in the bible.

[Winston]

@MrMan will love this New Age channeling of Jesus. lol. It's way outside his little box. lol

"This is a very important video about the REAL message of Jesus Christ and how religion supresses the real good news of the gospel that Jesus came to share.

The first part of the video is a powerful talk by Allen watts where he explains why religion keeps people in the dark and takes away our own inner direction for spiritual growth and self empowerment.

http://jeshua.net/ Used by Permission. A big thank you to Pamela Kribbe
for giving permission to share these beautiful lectures from Jeshua Ben Joseph.

The second part of this video is a channelling that was done by Pamela Kribbe, where Jesus communicates once again the real reason for his coming to earth and his message.

This message is a channelling from Jeshua who is being channelled by Pamela Kribbe.

READ THE FULL ARTICLE HERE: https://www.jeshua.net/about-us/who-is-jeshua/ "



This is an enlightening video about the TRUE message of Jesus Christ and the core message or truth that unifies most religions.
This video is a combination of two messages. A talk by Alan Watts about Jesus and religion and several channelings from Jeshua Ben Joseph.

Jesus message was that the Christ energy is present in all human beings as a seed. When people look up to Jesus as some kind of authority, they have misunderstood his message.

He wished and still wishes to invite you to believe in yourself, to find the truth within your own heart, and not to believe in any authority outside of you.

Pamela:
“For me, the name Jeshua refers not so much to the historical personality of Jesus but to the universal Christ energy that we are all a part of. When I channel Jeshua, I feel deeply drawn into this field of love and compassion and in that state of consciousness I receive the messages from Jeshua.”

[Winston]

Wow check out these intros for the classic cartoon epics like He-Man and She-Ra from the 1980s. They sound epic and exciting and stimulating. Nothing in today's cartoons are like this. These classic cartoons from the 80s always preached good moral lessons and parables, and the characters were always so wholesome, good, and righteous. Cartoons today don't do that, all they do is talk about racial equality and non-discrimination. Has anyone noticed this? The shows from the 80s were so different. Were any of you fans of He-Man or She-Ra? If so, these intros will give you a sense of nostalgia. Also, wasn't She-Ra so friggin hot? I don't normally have the hots for cartoon characters, but She-Ra is an exception. lol.





All the Superfriends intros from 1973 to 1985. There were multiple Superfriends series between that time, so these are all the intros from each series. The music also sounds epic and exciting.



Now here's the thing and the connection to Jesus, which is why I posted this in this thread:

The thing is, all the Superfriends characters, as well as He-Man and She-Ra, were perfectly good, wholesome and righteous. As if they never had a single dark thought. lol. No one in real life is like that of course. It makes you wonder if Jesus was made up too, since Jesus is portrayed as perfectly wholesome, good and righteous too, like the Superfriends and He-Man and She-Ra are. I mean, if these perfectly good characters were made up, it makes you wonder if Jesus was too, since no one in real life is like that, devoid of even one dark thought.

Perhaps they are all archetypes of the warrior or hero within us. That's not as far fetched as you think. Many great comparative religion and mythology scholars have said that, such as Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. That Jesus represents the Christ within, and was not necessarily a historical character. The Christ within is what Christians truly seek and worship. Likewise, these perfectly good cartoon characters like He-Man and She-Ra and the Superfriends, represent the warrior or hero archetype within, which is what children are connecting to when they love and admire these characters. That sort of makes sense if you think about it. This means of course that Jesus could be entirely made up to appeal to the Christ archetype within us. It's very possible, even if it goes against what Christians want to believe. Many great scholars such as Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell have posited this as well, so it is a credible theory to explain religion.

[Space Invaders]

Wow check out these intros for the classic cartoon epics like He-Man and She-Ra from the 1980s. They sound epic and exciting and stimulating. Nothing in today's cartoons are like this. These classic cartoons from the 80s always preached good moral lessons and parables, and the characters were always so wholesome, good, and righteous. Cartoons today don't do that, all they do is talk about racial equality and non-discrimination. Has anyone noticed this? The shows from the 80s were so different. Were any of you fans of He-Man or She-Ra? If so, these intros will give you a sense of nostalgia. Also, wasn't She-Ra so friggin hot? I don't normally have the hots for cartoon characters, but She-Ra is an exception. lol.





All the Superfriends intros from 1973 to 1985. There were multiple Superfriends series between that time, so these are all the intros from each series. The music also sounds epic and exciting.



Now here's the thing and the connection to Jesus, which is why I posted this in this thread:

The thing is, all the Superfriends characters, as well as He-Man and She-Ra, were perfectly good, wholesome and righteous. As if they never had a single dark thought. lol. No one in real life is like that of course. It makes you wonder if Jesus was made up too, since Jesus is portrayed as perfectly wholesome, good and righteous too, like the Superfriends and He-Man and She-Ra are. I mean, if these perfectly good characters were made up, it makes you wonder if Jesus was too, since no one in real life is like that, devoid of even one dark thought.

Perhaps they are all archetypes of the warrior or hero within us. That's not as far fetched as you think. Many great comparative religion and mythology scholars have said that, such as Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. That Jesus represents the Christ within, and was not necessarily a historical character. The Christ within is what Christians truly seek and worship. Likewise, these perfectly good cartoon characters like He-Man and She-Ra and the Superfriends, represent the warrior or hero archetype within, which is what children are connecting to when they love and admire these characters. That sort of makes sense if you think about it. This means of course that Jesus could be entirely made up to appeal to the Christ archetype within us. It's very possible, even if it goes against what Christians want to believe. Many great scholars such as Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell have posited this as well, so it is a credible theory to explain religion.

I would add GI JOE, Transformers, Thundercats, Galaxy Rangers, Mask-You're right, all these cartoons embodied heroic ideals and were a real treat for us 80s kids to watch after school and on the weekends. All men are to some extent evil and corrupted, that's just human nature. In the past, however, our dark desires were kept in the closet where they belonged. Today, all that is immoral and ungodly is brought out into the open, for all to see. It's as if people take pride in airing out all their dirty laundry, they have no shame. Single motherhood used to be an abhorrent thing; today it's a badge of courage? There are a bunch of other stupid things going on today that you and other posters have already pointed, so I won't rehash old information. In conclusion, TV shows and movies really stink nowadays. Truth is, unwholesome subject matter is also very boring.

[MrMan]

Wow check out these intros for the classic cartoon epics like He-Man and She-Ra from the 1980s. They sound epic and exciting and stimulating. Nothing in today's cartoons are like this. These classic cartoons from the 80s always preached good moral lessons and parables, and the characters were always so wholesome, good, and righteous. Cartoons today don't do that, all they do is talk about racial equality and non-discrimination. Has anyone noticed this? The shows from the 80s were so different. Were any of you fans of He-Man or She-Ra? If so, these intros will give you a sense of nostalgia. Also, wasn't She-Ra so friggin hot? I don't normally have the hots for cartoon characters, but She-Ra is an exception. lol.





All the Superfriends intros from 1973 to 1985. There were multiple Superfriends series between that time, so these are all the intros from each series. The music also sounds epic and exciting.

How exactly is He-man supposed to be a superhero? He's a buff prince with a whiney voice wearing pastel purple tights. His sword gets struck by lightening, then he has a deep voice and he's suddenly dressed for a gay pride parade. He doesn't have any superpowers other than being strong, which you'd expect of someone with his muscles, right? I never watched She-Ra. He-Man was kind of a babyish cartoon for me when I was on. I was probably about 8 or 9. I watched it some, but I was just barely on the cusp of the age group it would have appealed to.

I did like Superfriends a lot when I was 5. Notice later versions of it introduce a racially diverse cast, a black man with lightening in his pants, a Japanese guy with a tornado in his pants, and a growing Native American.

Now here's the thing and the connection to Jesus, which is why I posted this in this thread:

The thing is, all the Superfriends characters, as well as He-Man and She-Ra, were perfectly good, wholesome and righteous. As if they never had a single dark thought. lol. No one in real life is like that of course. It makes you wonder if Jesus was made up too, since Jesus is portrayed as perfectly wholesome, good and righteous too, like the Superfriends and He-Man and She-Ra are. I mean, if these perfectly good characters were made up, it makes you wonder if Jesus was too, since no one in real life is like that, devoid of even one dark thought.

Jesus did controversial stuff in the Bible, like interpret the Sabbath differently, claim to be the Son of God and drive demons into a herd of pigs. He was a lot edgier than superfriends' Superman.

Later cartoon iterations of Superman aren't so noble. He's always beating people up by knocking them into buildings instead of flying off to corn fields to fight super villians.

[Winston]

Interesting docu-drama from 1979 called "In Search of Historic Jesus". Full movie and description below.

"In Search of Historic Jesus is a 1979 documentary film released by Sunn Classic Pictures that speculates on the historical accuracy of the biblical depiction of Jesus.

In Search of Historic Jesus was produced by Sunn Classic Pictures, a Utah-based independent film company that specialized in releasing low-budget family films and documentaries. Along with such features as In Search of Noah's Ark (1976) and Beyond and Back (1978), the film was one of a series of releases from the company that attempted to present convincing scientific evidence for Christian theology.[2]"

"This movie was produced in 1979 by Schick Sunn Classic Productions. Robert Starling wrote the first draft of the screenplay from his original concept and was 2nd unit director, capturing all the documentary footage shot in England, Italy, Los Angeles, New York, etc. The film is not without its flaws, but it raises some fascinating questions about the life of Jesus Christ, especially his appearances in the Americas after his resurrection and his image on the Shroud of Turin. After a successful theatrical run, the movie was seen on the NBC Television network and around the world in TV syndication and on VHS videotapes."

[Winston]

But @MrMan, regardless of what you think about superheros, the point is that they are archetypes, so Jesus could be too. Not necessarily historical people. Did you consider that? Isn't that a possibility? Why or why not? Many great scholars have posited this such as Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. That's why Jesus is such a blank slate where anyone can see whatever they want in him, or project whatever they want onto him. It could also be that in Jesus' time, his myth was just a myth, like Hercules. But later people turned it into a historical person to give the church political authority to control people, that's when Christianity became serious business and no longer a parable or archetype for inner spiritual exploration, like the Gnostic Gospels were meant to be. That's another theory too.

Keep in mind that ancient people did not care about historical accuracy, only in timeless truths and parables. So a made up story could be considered true as long as it illustrated a truth or principle. For example if you were honest and virtuous and I made up a story about how you told the truth about something, like the story about George Washington and the apple tree, it would still be considered good and true in ancient times because the story illustrated your true character, even if it didn't really happen. That's how ancient cultures saw things. They didn't care about historical accuracy like we do today. Dr. Reza Aslan has talked about this in his lectures and interviews.

[Yohan]

Just my opinion, Jesus likely existed, but surely not as a son of God. There is very little evidence about Jesus.

Some even claim Jesus was a woman and not a man, because at that time such teachings coming from a man would be considered to be comical as his (?) teachings are often female orientated (feminist-friendly?), there are claims he was a gay man, even claims he/she was handicapped etc..

Nobody knows who he or she really was - nothing is said, even not in the Bible, about the looks of Jesus, not even the gender is mentioned.

To find the truth about Jesus and what happened at that time is impossible.

Every religion which is somehow connected with Jesus tells you a different story, for example Ahmadi Muslims believe that Jesus was crucified but survived the four hours on the cross. He was only unconscious but recovered. As he was facing persecution he decided to move away direction eastwards and died of old age later in India.

-----------------------

There is even a Jesus Grave in Japan, in the small village of Shingo 新郷村 in Aomori, a very remote location.
Some Japanese Christian Churches believe Jesus made it up to Japan, (via India - similar to the Ahmadi Muslim belief) but those documents by Takenouchi no Sukune 武内宿禰 recorded in Japan's earliest literary texts are often considered to be nothing but a fairy tale. However those documents also mentioned that Jesus died older than 100 years and Christians were persecuted everywhere and many lived in hiding in Northern Japan.

In this village there is a church+museum which claims that many of the unique customs of the village, like the now-lost custom of drawing a cross on the forehead of infants, come directly from the teachings and direction of Jesus. Each year, a Jesus-Festival is held at this grave and thousands of Christian pilgrims and tourists travel to this site annually every year.

新郷村（しんごうむら）は、青森県東南部の南部地方に所在する村。 キリストの墓伝説やユダヤにまつわると言われる祭礼・遺跡があり、
Shingo Village is a village located in the southern part of the southeastern part of Aomori Prefecture. There are festivals and ruins that are said to be related to the legend of the tomb of Christ and Jewish people.

Website of the Grave of Jesus in Japan
http://nippon-sumizumi-kanko.com/b-christpark.html



A link which includes some explanation in English
http://www.marumarushingo.com/?tid=3&mode=f12

[MrMan]

Just my opinion, Jesus likely existed, but surely not as a son of God. There is very little evidence about Jesus.

Some even claim Jesus was a woman and not a man, because at that time such teachings coming from a man would be considered to be comical as his (?) teachings are often female orientated (feminist-friendly?), there are claims he was a gay man, even claims he/she was handicapped etc..

Nobody knows who he or she really was - nothing is said, even not in the Bible, about the looks of Jesus, not even the gender is mentioned.

It doesn't sound like you've ever read the gospels. Jesus is called 'He' throughout the gospel. Blasphemers and people with their own agendas have proposed some of the theories you mentioned.

[MrMan]

But @MrMan, regardless of what you think about superheros, the point is that they are archetypes, so Jesus could be too. Not necessarily historical people. Did you consider that? Isn't that a possibility? Why or why not? Many great scholars have posited this such as Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. That's why Jesus is such a blank slate where anyone can see whatever they want in him, or project whatever they want onto him. It could also be that in Jesus' time, his myth was just a myth, like Hercules. But later people turned it into a historical person to give the church political authority to control people, that's when Christianity became serious business and no longer a parable or archetype for inner spiritual exploration, like the Gnostic Gospels were meant to be. That's another theory too.

Keep in mind that ancient people did not care about historical accuracy, only in timeless truths and parables. So a made up story could be considered true as long as it illustrated a truth or principle. For example if you were honest and virtuous and I made up a story about how you told the truth about something, like the story about George Washington and the apple tree, it would still be considered good and true in ancient times because the story illustrated your true character, even if it didn't really happen. That's how ancient cultures saw things. They didn't care about historical accuracy like we do today. Dr. Reza Aslan has talked about this in his lectures and interviews.

Your overstatement here is rather ridiculous. You really think no ancient people cared anything at all about historical accuracy?

Do you know of any scholars who reject Paul's letters as not being historical? Paul clearly considered Christ to be a real historical figure. Peter also wrote letters.