Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?

[Winston]

Interesting video about what Freemasonic texts say about Jesus and why he was an ARCHETYPE and eternal form, and would have been invented had he not existed.

[ladislav]

Jesus is a simple remake of many Gods before him, wrapped in a new version.

But whether he was real or not, he is not very helpful. It would cost him nothing to come down from heavens and stop a bullet or a missile.
On an Orthodox Easter, Russia bombed a residential building in Ukraine. The missile killed a woman and her child while they were praising Jesus.
Not a very strong God whether he existed on not.

[Winston]

Jesus is a simple remake of many Gods before him, wrapped in a new version.

But whether he was real or not, he is not very helpful. It would cost him nothing to come down from heavens and stop a bullet or a missile.
On an Orthodox Easter, Russia bombed a residential building in Ukraine. The missile killed a woman and her child while they were praising Jesus.
Not a very strong God whether he existed on not.

That's a good point ladislav. If Jesus really rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, why doesn't he come back at least once a year to show himself to his followers or the world and have an annual pep rally or something? If he was real, you'd think he would. Where did he go if he rose from the dead? And if he's alive why doesn't he come back once in a while? I've asked Christians this and they have no reply and ignore the question totally. Even if you ask @MrMan he will say nothing. There are countless questions like this that Christians can't answer and won't touch. That speaks volumes about how nonsensical all this is.

[MrMan]

Jesus is a simple remake of many Gods before him, wrapped in a new version.

But whether he was real or not, he is not very helpful. It would cost him nothing to come down from heavens and stop a bullet or a missile.
On an Orthodox Easter, Russia bombed a residential building in Ukraine. The missile killed a woman and her child while they were praising Jesus.
Not a very strong God whether he existed on not.

That's a good point ladislav. If Jesus really rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, why doesn't he come back at least once a year to show himself to his followers or the world and have an annual pep rally or something? If he was real, you'd think he would. Where did he go if he rose from the dead? And if he's alive why doesn't he come back once in a while? I've asked Christians this and they have no reply and ignore the question totally. Even if you ask @MrMan he will say nothing. There are countless questions like this that Christians can't answer and won't touch. That speaks volumes about how nonsensical all this is.

It's a question that doesn't 'bite' for me, to borrow an Indonesian expression. It's an uninteresting question based on an assumption I don't consider to be particularly valuable.

There are evidences for God, especially for some of those following Him, seeing Him work in our lives, answer prayer, etc. usually _after_ we believe. But there is a blessing on those who have not seen the risen Christ, and yet have believed. Most Christian, I would venture to guess, have not seen a vision of Christ.

[Pixel--Dude]

Jesus is a simple remake of many Gods before him, wrapped in a new version.

But whether he was real or not, he is not very helpful. It would cost him nothing to come down from heavens and stop a bullet or a missile.
On an Orthodox Easter, Russia bombed a residential building in Ukraine. The missile killed a woman and her child while they were praising Jesus.
Not a very strong God whether he existed on not.

That's a good point ladislav. If Jesus really rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, why doesn't he come back at least once a year to show himself to his followers or the world and have an annual pep rally or something? If he was real, you'd think he would. Where did he go if he rose from the dead? And if he's alive why doesn't he come back once in a while? I've asked Christians this and they have no reply and ignore the question totally. Even if you ask @MrMan he will say nothing. There are countless questions like this that Christians can't answer and won't touch. That speaks volumes about how nonsensical all this is.

It's a question that doesn't 'bite' for me, to borrow an Indonesian expression. It's an uninteresting question based on an assumption I don't consider to be particularly valuable.

There are evidences for God, especially for some of those following Him, seeing Him work in our lives, answer prayer, etc. usually _after_ we believe. But there is a blessing on those who have not seen the risen Christ, and yet have believed. Most Christian, I would venture to guess, have not seen a vision of Christ.

A lot of what you call "answered prayer" is just confirmation bias. Something happens, like your story of losing your keys for example. You pray to God and an hour later your keys turned up. That's not God answering prayer! That's just your confirmation bias.

What about those who have children dying of disease? Why doesn't God answer their prayers and heal their children?

Do you honestly believe that God sees you as so special that he will personally intervene to help you find your keys but someone's dying child is unworthy of God's intervention?

The story of Jesus doesn't make sense from a logical point of view. If God knew that sending his son to earth to die for our Sins was the answer then why did he needlessly kill all those people for sins committed when he knew from the very beginning what he needed to do in order to absolve humanity of sin?

The Bible is a load of garbage. All the Abrahamic religions are.

[Epsilon99]

@Pixel--Dude Why aren't the prayers of people with horrible diseases or mental illnesses answered? These religious fools ignore how unfair life is and all of the suffering just because they're privileged themselves.

[MrMan]

Jesus is a simple remake of many Gods before him, wrapped in a new version.

But whether he was real or not, he is not very helpful. It would cost him nothing to come down from heavens and stop a bullet or a missile.
On an Orthodox Easter, Russia bombed a residential building in Ukraine. The missile killed a woman and her child while they were praising Jesus.
Not a very strong God whether he existed on not.

That's a good point ladislav. If Jesus really rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, why doesn't he come back at least once a year to show himself to his followers or the world and have an annual pep rally or something? If he was real, you'd think he would. Where did he go if he rose from the dead? And if he's alive why doesn't he come back once in a while? I've asked Christians this and they have no reply and ignore the question totally. Even if you ask @MrMan he will say nothing. There are countless questions like this that Christians can't answer and won't touch. That speaks volumes about how nonsensical all this is.

It's a question that doesn't 'bite' for me, to borrow an Indonesian expression. It's an uninteresting question based on an assumption I don't consider to be particularly valuable.

There are evidences for God, especially for some of those following Him, seeing Him work in our lives, answer prayer, etc. usually _after_ we believe. But there is a blessing on those who have not seen the risen Christ, and yet have believed. Most Christian, I would venture to guess, have not seen a vision of Christ.

A lot of what you call "answered prayer" is just confirmation bias. Something happens, like your story of losing your keys for example. You pray to God and an hour later your keys turned up. That's not God answering prayer! That's just your confirmation bias.

One time I was out on the streets with a Christian who was street witnessing way late at night, well morning. He wanted to go. I sensed we weren't done. I prayed that if God wanted us to stay that he'd send someone with a certain color hat, certain color shirt, certain color shoes around the corner of the building we were at. The other guy said we'd be there all night. It was dead there. No one was around. I continued praying, "in the next two minutes" and set my stop watch. About a minute and 49 seconds or so, the guy comes around the corner and we talked with him and prayed with him about some things.

I've prayed for God to speak to my wife about this laundry list of 6 or 7 things I had difficulty talking with my wife about because at the time she was pretty emotional and didn't react well. A couple of days later, she tells me God spoke to her about some things, and went through most items on my list, but in much more detail than I had even thought about. One or two of the items on the list were dealt with a few weeks later, and she told me the Lord had spoken to her about those things as well. I won't go into too much detail since these were issues related to our marriage and how we got along. It certainly fixed some problems we were having since part of it was correction for her that made her easier to get along with as a wife.

What about those who have children dying of disease? Why doesn't God answer their prayers and heal their children?

In many cases, He does. In other cases, the children don't get healed. I don't know all the reasons. Sometimes the people praying do not have proper standing with God to even expect an answer to prayer or pray to the wrong god.

There is another issue that we have a limited lifespan. At some point we die from something, with one or two exceptions in human history maybe, and some of those in the final generation when Christ returns.

Do you honestly believe that God sees you as so special that he will personally intervene to help you find your keys but someone's dying child is unworthy of God's intervention?

I don't know all the downstream effects of me finding my keys. What if, for example, I pray in faith to find my keys and someone praying for a sick child has no faith in God to answer his prayer?

The story of Jesus doesn't make sense from a logical point of view. If God knew that sending his son to earth to die for our Sins was the answer then why did he needlessly kill all those people for sins committed when he knew from the very beginning what he needed to do in order to absolve humanity of sin?

There are still people who die in their sins and in unbelief today after Jesus died on the cross. The Lord Jesus died at the proper time for God's plans. You do not know all of God's plans. Neither do I.

[Pixel--Dude]

One time I was out on the streets with a Christian who was street witnessing way late at night, well morning. He wanted to go. I sensed we weren't done. I prayed that if God wanted us to stay that he'd send someone with a certain color hat, certain color shirt, certain color shoes around the corner of the building we were at. The other guy said we'd be there all night. It was dead there. No one was around. I continued praying, "in the next two minutes" and set my stop watch. About a minute and 49 seconds or so, the guy comes around the corner and we talked with him and prayed with him about some things.

I've prayed for God to speak to my wife about this laundry list of 6 or 7 things I had difficulty talking with my wife about because at the time she was pretty emotional and didn't react well. A couple of days later, she tells me God spoke to her about some things, and went through most items on my list, but in much more detail than I had even thought about. One or two of the items on the list were dealt with a few weeks later, and she told me the Lord had spoken to her about those things as well. I won't go into too much detail since these were issues related to our marriage and how we got along. It certainly fixed some problems we were having since part of it was correction for her that made her easier to get along with as a wife.

I am glad you managed to sort through a lot of issues with your wife. No offence intended here, but these anecdotes sound like trivialities compared to what some people have to go through. You and your wife can easily sort through your own issues without the need for God to intervene with a little love and understanding and healthy communication, which I don't doubt you already have.

In many cases, He does. In other cases, the children don't get healed. I don't know all the reasons. Sometimes the people praying do not have proper standing with God to even expect an answer to prayer or pray to the wrong god.

If I was God and I could interact with my own creation, I would try to help everyone equally, regardless of whether they worshipped me or another God called Dave. I wouldn't care. A loving god wouldn't abandon his children for the innocent crime of worshipping a wrong god.

If he revealed himself to humanity there would be no debate. No wrong gods or people needlessly suffering because Yahweh is acting petty that someone who was accidentally born into a culture which worships another god prays to the wrong deity. How is that fair?

There is another issue that we have a limited lifespan. At some point we die from something, with one or two exceptions in human history maybe, and some of those in the final generation when Christ returns.

Yes, death is a natural part of the cycle of life. Death comes for us all eventually. It shouldn't be something feared. It should just be something people accept. I think I have a pretty pragmatic view on death. But we'll see how I feel when I'm on deaths door. Lol.

The issue I have with Yahweh isn't the fact that people die. It's the fact that, from your point of view, he answers prayers when it comes to inconsequential things like helping you find keys or helping you and your wife reconcile (when you can do that yourselves) but he doesn't help people who pray for their dying children to recover. He ignores them. Who are you to say their faith isn't strong enough for them to deserve their prayers to be answered?

I don't know all the downstream effects of me finding my keys. What if, for example, I pray in faith to find my keys and someone praying for a sick child has no faith in God to answer his prayer?

A loving god would help the person praying for a sick child regardless, would he not?

There are still people who die in their sins and in unbelief today after Jesus died on the cross. The Lord Jesus died at the proper time for God's plans. You do not know all of God's plans. Neither do I.

So what are you saying? That Jesus died for nothing? What exactly is God's plan? If his plan is to enslave humanity, create disease, death and suffering for the people of earth and abandon them in a world of evil with nothing but a book written by man to prove his existence then I'd say his plan has worked out pretty well

[MrMan]

I am glad you managed to sort through a lot of issues with your wife. No offence intended here, but these anecdotes sound like trivialities compared to what some people have to go through. You and your wife can easily sort through your own issues without the need for God to intervene with a little love and understanding and healthy communication, which I don't doubt you already have.

You have life, air, water, the ability to think, the ability to work, etc. because of God. What makes you think you sort out any problems on your own without God's help. The point was the answers to these prayers were incredibly detailed. Once, when I was in financial need, I told God I wished someone would give me $400, and within an hour or so, someone put $400 in my hands. I didn't tell them or ask them.

If I was God and I could interact with my own creation, I would try to help everyone equally, regardless of whether they worshipped me or another God called Dave. I wouldn't care. A loving god wouldn't abandon his children for the innocent crime of worshipping a wrong god.

Here you are on this forum, saying all kinds of bad stuff about YHWH, and now you want to think you are one of His children. Why do you think everyone is God's child? To those who receive His Word, Who became flesh, He gives the power to __become__ the sons of God.

Becoming a son of God is a big deal. Immortality seems to be a big part of it. The creation awaits the manifestation of the sons of God.

The issue I have with Yahweh isn't the fact that people die. It's the fact that, from your point of view, he answers prayers when it comes to inconsequential things like helping you find keys or helping you and your wife reconcile (when you can do that yourselves) but he doesn't help people who pray for their dying children to recover. He ignores them.

That isn't accurate either because there are many children and adults who are healed.

[Winston]

Dr. David Skrbina talks about the Jesus hoax on MythVision podcast.

Time-stamps:
0:00: Introduction
3:34: What separates Dr. Skrbina from other liberal scholars
12:43: Dr. Skrbina’s basic argument
18:38: The first problem: lack of evidence
24:21: The second problem: chronology
27:33: The historical context of Jesus’ story, and Paul’s role
33:17: More on Dr. Skrbina’s basic argument
41:59: Is Paul’s Jesus an enhanced view of James’ and Peter’s Jesus?
44:20: Could Paul have wanted to hijack an already existing Christian movement?
46:45: Paul’s audience: slaves and non-Romans?
48:34: On the Roman Provenance theory
50:48: Paul’s reasons: not only political but also financial?
55:07: “Paul’s pushing a story to the masses that he does not believe”
57:56: Allusions to the Romans in Paul’s letters
1:01:14: Children of Devil = Children of Rome?
1:03:34: How did the letters were adopted by Rome?
1:05:47: What convinces Dr. Skrbina that a historical Jesus existed
1:07:05: Paul using stories about a historical Jesus?
1:08:20: What makes Dr. Skrbina’s different from Dr. Ehrman’s position?

[Winston]

David Fitzgerald on MythVision Podcast talks about his book "Nailed: 10 Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All".

Why would anyone think Jesus never existed? Isn’t it perfectly reasonable to accept that he was a real first century figure? As it turns out, no. NAILED sheds light on ten beloved Christian myths, and with evidence gathered from historians all across the theological spectrum, shows how they point to a Jesus Christ created solely through allegorical alchemy of hope and imagination; a messiah transformed from a purely literary, theological construct into the familiar figure of Jesus – in short, a purely mythic Christ.

Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed At All

“Fitzgerald’s is possibly the best ‘capsule summary’ of the mythicist case I’ve ever encountered …with an interesting and accessible approach.”
—Earl Doherty, author of The Jesus Puzzle

“Fitzgerald summarizes a great number of key arguments concisely and with new power and original spin. I really learned something from him. Recalls classical skeptics and biblical critics. A surprising amount of new material.”
—Robert M. Price, author of Deconstructing Jesus and The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man

“David Fitzgerald reveals himself to be the brightest new star in the firmament of scholars who deny historical reality to “Jesus of Nazareth.” His brilliance would have been sufficiently established had he done nothing more than illustrate and explain traditional arguments with a clarity and transparency never achieved…But he has done more. He has developed new arguments and insights as well...”
—Frank R. Zindler, editor of American Atheist Press and author of The Jesus the Jews Never Knew

“Fitzgerald has hit the nail on the head…A nice, readable introduction to the top ten problems typically swept under the rug by anyone insisting it's crazy even to suspect Jesus might not have existed.”
—Richard C. Carrier, Ph.D., author of Not the Impossible Faith: Why Christianity Didn’t Need a Miracle to Succeed and the forthcoming book On the Historicity of Jesus Christ

David Fitzgerald is a writer and historical researcher who has been actively investigating the Historical Jesus question for over ten years. He has a degree in History and was an associate member of CSER, the former Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion. He lectures around the country at universities and national secular events and is best known for his popular multimedia presentation "The Ten Thousand Christs and the Evaporating Jesus."

[MrPeabody]

Tim Freke wrote an excellent book on early Christianity and gives a convincing explanation on why Jesus never existed.

Jesus and the Lost Goddess: The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians

https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Lost-Godde ... =Tim+Freke

Freke is not an atheist and so goes deep into the spiritual aspects, rather than just being a debunker.