Interesting Anabaptist site exposes protestants

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Kalinago
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Interesting Anabaptist site exposes protestants

Post by Kalinago »

https://www.mylife4jesus.co.za/

I will have to do my research and critical evaluation of what is said here,but interesting pov nevertheless.
@fschmidt aren't you a mennonite?


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MrMan
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Re: Interesting Anabaptist site exposes protestants

Post by MrMan »

Kalinago wrote:
March 16th, 2023, 10:53 pm
https://www.mylife4jesus.co.za/

I will have to do my research and critical evaluation of what is said here,but interesting pov nevertheless.
@fschmidt aren't you a mennonite?
I don't know if she is AnaBaptist. I looked over the site, and it's a mixed bag. Some of it seems pretty good. She also has some theologically questionable (or just factually wrong) positions. One of my concerns with 'heretic hunter' type websites is that sometimes the theological errors or prejudice of the author can be as bad or worse as whoever they are attacking.

She accuses those who disagree with women being elder/overseers of misogyny. IMO, that is an ugly accusation, as if everyone who held to that position hated women. How could someone make such a judgment. There are many Christians who interpret the Bible not to allow female overseers for various reasons (such as Let the overseer be above reproach, the man (husband) of one woman (wife) in I Timothy 3:2.) She also equates being a servant with being a bishop. Phoebe is called a servant, maybe deacon, of the church in Cenchrea, but not an overseer. She also seems to be under the impression that those who disagree with some of her pet doctrines might be under demonic influence. The Bible warns about the world, the flesh, and the Devil. Those are at least three sources of influence.

I don't know about Pentecostalism in South Africa, but she lumps a lot of stuff in with Pentecostalism that isn't really Pentecostalism, but rather Pentecostal offshoots. There is variety with Pentecostals. Some are more friendly with some aspects of the Word of Faith movement, and other Pentecostal preachers wouldn't want to be under the same roof with Kenneth Copeland.

The Charismatic movement was a movement that grew in the late 60's and early 70's, that it had roots in the '50's, of 'mainline' denominations accepting the idea of believers being baptized with the Holy Spirit and operating in spiritual gifts like speaking in tongues. These were characteristics of the Pentecostal movement. It's more of a theological position that crosses several church movements. I might compare it to Calvinism in that regard. This blogger you found might or might not consider herself a Calvinist since seems to agree with them on predestination. But if she does, that doesn't mean she shares all the same opinions as a Presbyterian. She believes in believers baptism. Presbyterians sprinkle babies. Calvinists could have different views on various political issues, but share some Calvinistic points of doctrine. Charismatics share some points of doctrine about spiritual gifts, but they could be Calvinists (probably a small percentage) or not. Or they could hold to some other viewpoint that another Charismatic might not hold to.

Rick Joyner is part what I would call the prophetic movement. That overlaps, or used to overlap with the Vineyard, which came out of the Jesus' people movement. Pentecostals believe in prophesying and tongues and interpretation, but I wouldn't consider Rick Joyner to be Pentecostal, and he doesn't call himself that as far as I know. The Vineyard doesn't call itself Charismatic. I don't know if Rick Joyner's group did. I went to two or three of the MorningStar conferences back in the early 1990's, so I did check them out. I've also spent less than three years going to Vineyards. The last one I went to was a fairly standard Evangelical church and didn't have that old Vineyard 'ethos' and emphasis on regular believers operating in spiritual gifts.

Also, I don't get why a picture of a tower or praying hands has to be interpreted as masonic or phallic symbol. Some of that stuff looked rather silly to me, silly, but combined with accusations, it becomes a serious issue.

Pentecostal denominations are premillennial-- believing in a literal thousand year reign of Christ on the earth, and that Christ returns before this time period. Post-millennialists typically take the millennium as allegorical and think Jesus is coming back after it. (Amillennial is a very large group, and the dominant view for a long time after 300 or 400 AD, before which premil was probably more popular. The earliest views seem to be premil, IMO.)

The Dominionist perspective she associates with Pentecostals and Charismatics is, as far as I can understand, a variant of post-mil. But I also notice that some of these folks seem kind of loose with their use of scripture to explain eschatology. I not a lot of light use of scripture in the prophetic movement churches I've visited or people I've been around, too. So it could be premillers can go to these churches and not realize there is a contradiction. Also, the optimistic ideas about post-mil and trying to do good for society aren't all at odds with premil. One could believe in a premillennial return of Christ and still believe that it is a good idea for Christians to do good in the 'seven mountains' of society and be an influence. There are areas where there can be common ground, even if the eschatologies aren't the same.

But my point is this stuff is not Pentecostal. There are Pentecostal churches that are very gospel focused. In the old days (I'm thinking the 1970's and '80's-- old days for me) it seemed pretty normal to have tongues and interpretations and also prophecies in Pentecostal church meeting. Some churches in these other movements don't allow that from the floor-- which is odd for a 'prophetic movement'. But the individuals speaking or people in other venues might give personal prophecies.

I believe true spiritual gifts, prophecies, healing, etc. can operate in these different kinds of churches. Churches that teach false prophecy is no big deal may be setting themselves up for false prophesying to occur. But I've also witnessed a number of prophecies that made 'manifest the secrets' of people's hearts (like I Corinthians 14 mentions). I heard a prophecy or interpretation of tongue that answered a question I was thinking in a Pentecostal church. I've also been prophesied over and the prophecy seemed to interact with my thoughts that I didn't say. And of course, I've seen numerous prophecies and other revelatory experiences where someone talks about things they couldn't naturally know, a prophecy about the guy who is going to summer camp to work, to the guy who is indeed going to summer camp, and dozens and dozens of other details like that in the same meeting. My parents didn't know anyone there, and I hadn't shared background information, and the one prophesying addressed my dad's specific type of construction job and the fact that my parents were preparing to build a house. That was in an independent Charismatic church.

I've also witnessed evidence of healing, a classmate who was healed of some vision problems and her eyes being visibly messed up and crossed badly. That was one I could see with my own eyes. I've known other people who said they were healed. But you can't usually see a lot of these ailments with your own eyes.

Some Pentecostal churches heavily emphasize teaching scripture. Some preachers are more 'yee haw. Glory! Glory!' and into talking loud. Some who talk loud have good substance to what they say. Others less so. But generally, Bible teaching was heavily emphasized. At least that is where my family would go. But nowadays a lot of Pentecostal churches don't see a lot of the flow of certain gifts. Some pastors came in from different backgrounds, or congregants, and are wary of the old way the gifts operated in meetings, or just unfamiliar with it. Back in the early 1990's Vineyard, it seemed like more regular believers were operating in gifts. They'd pray for each other after services, and it provided an opportunity for them to operate. And I think the people were open and hungry for it.

I've also been involved with house churches, which more heavily emphasize regular believers operating in spiritual gifts and edifying each other in meetings (I Corinthians 14:26.) I've seen some gifts operating in house churches. A lot of the rapid church growth on mission fields has come from returning to Biblical patterns, including meeting in homes, and believers doing ministry as opposed to just mainly clergy. I've moved a lot and been involved with a lot of different churches.

It is good if you go to someone to pray for you for an ailment, if they actually believe that God heals. Hebrews says that he that comes to God must believe that His is and that He is a Rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
MrMan
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Posts: 6621
Joined: July 30th, 2014, 7:52 pm

Re: Interesting Anabaptist site exposes protestants

Post by MrMan »

Kalinago wrote:
March 16th, 2023, 10:53 pm
https://www.mylife4jesus.co.za/

I will have to do my research and critical evaluation of what is said here,but interesting pov nevertheless.
@fschmidt aren't you a mennonite?
I don't know if she is AnaBaptist. I looked over the site, and it's a mixed bag. Some of it seems pretty good. She also has some theologically questionable (or just factually wrong) positions. One of my concerns with 'heretic hunter' type websites is that sometimes the theological errors or prejudice of the author can be as bad or worse as whoever they are attacking.

She accuses those who disagree with women being elder/overseers of misogyny. IMO, that is an ugly accusation, as if everyone who held to that position hated women. How could someone make such a judgment. There are many Christians who interpret the Bible not to allow female overseers for various reasons (such as Let the overseer be above reproach, the man (husband) of one woman (wife) in I Timothy 3:2.) She also equates being a servant with being a bishop. Phoebe is called a servant, maybe deacon, of the church in Cenchrea, but not an overseer. She also seems to be under the impression that those who disagree with some of her pet doctrines might be under demonic influence. The Bible warns about the world, the flesh, and the Devil. Those are at least three sources of influence.

I don't know about Pentecostalism in South Africa, but she lumps a lot of stuff in with Pentecostalism that isn't really Pentecostalism, but rather Pentecostal offshoots. There is variety with Pentecostals. Some are more friendly with some aspects of the Word of Faith movement, and other Pentecostal preachers wouldn't want to be under the same roof with Kenneth Copeland.

The Charismatic movement was a movement that grew in the late 60's and early 70's, that it had roots in the '50's, of 'mainline' denominations accepting the idea of believers being baptized with the Holy Spirit and operating in spiritual gifts like speaking in tongues. These were characteristics of the Pentecostal movement. It's more of a theological position that crosses several church movements. I might compare it to Calvinism in that regard. This blogger you found might or might not consider herself a Calvinist since seems to agree with them on predestination. But if she does, that doesn't mean she shares all the same opinions as a Presbyterian. She believes in believers baptism. Presbyterians sprinkle babies. Calvinists could have different views on various political issues, but share some Calvinistic points of doctrine. Charismatics share some points of doctrine about spiritual gifts, but they could be Calvinists (probably a small percentage) or not. Or they could hold to some other viewpoint that another Charismatic might not hold to.

Rick Joyner is part what I would call the prophetic movement. That overlaps, or used to overlap with the Vineyard, which came out of the Jesus' people movement. Pentecostals believe in prophesying and tongues and interpretation, but I wouldn't consider Rick Joyner to be Pentecostal, and he doesn't call himself that as far as I know. The Vineyard doesn't call itself Charismatic. I don't know if Rick Joyner's group did. I went to two or three of the MorningStar conferences back in the early 1990's, so I did check them out. I've also spent less than three years going to Vineyards. The last one I went to was a fairly standard Evangelical church and didn't have that old Vineyard 'ethos' and emphasis on regular believers operating in spiritual gifts.

Also, I don't get why a picture of a tower or praying hands has to be interpreted as masonic or phallic symbol. Some of that stuff looked rather silly to me, silly, but combined with accusations, it becomes a serious issue.

Pentecostal denominations are premillennial-- believing in a literal thousand year reign of Christ on the earth, and that Christ returns before this time period. Post-millennialists typically take the millennium as allegorical and think Jesus is coming back after it. (Amillennial is a very large group, and the dominant view for a long time after 300 or 400 AD, before which premil was probably more popular. The earliest views seem to be premil, IMO.)

The Dominionist perspective she associates with Pentecostals and Charismatics is, as far as I can understand, a variant of post-mil. But I also notice that some of these folks seem kind of loose with their use of scripture to explain eschatology. I not a lot of light use of scripture in the prophetic movement churches I've visited or people I've been around, too. So it could be premillers can go to these churches and not realize there is a contradiction. Also, the optimistic ideas about post-mil and trying to do good for society aren't all at odds with premil. One could believe in a premillennial return of Christ and still believe that it is a good idea for Christians to do good in the 'seven mountains' of society and be an influence. There are areas where there can be common ground, even if the eschatologies aren't the same.

But my point is this stuff is not Pentecostal. There are Pentecostal churches that are very gospel focused. In the old days (I'm thinking the 1970's and '80's-- old days for me) it seemed pretty normal to have tongues and interpretations and also prophecies in Pentecostal church meeting. Some churches in these other movements don't allow that from the floor-- which is odd for a 'prophetic movement'. But the individuals speaking or people in other venues might give personal prophecies.

I believe true spiritual gifts, prophecies, healing, etc. can operate in these different kinds of churches. Churches that teach false prophecy is no big deal may be setting themselves up for false prophesying to occur. But I've also witnessed a number of prophecies that made 'manifest the secrets' of people's hearts (like I Corinthians 14 mentions). I heard a prophecy or interpretation of tongue that answered a question I was thinking in a Pentecostal church. I've also been prophesied over and the prophecy seemed to interact with my thoughts that I didn't say. And of course, I've seen numerous prophecies and other revelatory experiences where someone talks about things they couldn't naturally know, a prophecy about the guy who is going to summer camp to work, to the guy who is indeed going to summer camp, and dozens and dozens of other details like that in the same meeting. My parents didn't know anyone there, and I hadn't shared background information, and the one prophesying addressed my dad's specific type of construction job and the fact that my parents were preparing to build a house. That was in an independent Charismatic church.

I've also witnessed evidence of healing, a classmate who was healed of some vision problems and her eyes being visibly messed up and crossed badly. That was one I could see with my own eyes. I've known other people who said they were healed. But you can't usually see a lot of these ailments with your own eyes.

Some Pentecostal churches heavily emphasize teaching scripture. Some preachers are more 'yee haw. Glory! Glory!' and into talking loud. Some who talk loud have good substance to what they say. Others less so. But generally, Bible teaching was heavily emphasized. At least that is where my family would go. But nowadays a lot of Pentecostal churches don't see a lot of the flow of certain gifts. Some pastors came in from different backgrounds, or congregants, and are wary of the old way the gifts operated in meetings, or just unfamiliar with it. Back in the early 1990's Vineyard, it seemed like more regular believers were operating in gifts. They'd pray for each other after services, and it provided an opportunity for them to operate. And I think the people were open and hungry for it.

I've also been involved with house churches, which more heavily emphasize regular believers operating in spiritual gifts and edifying each other in meetings (I Corinthians 14:26.) I've seen some gifts operating in house churches. A lot of the rapid church growth on mission fields has come from returning to Biblical patterns, including meeting in homes, and believers doing ministry as opposed to just mainly clergy. I've moved a lot and been involved with a lot of different churches.

It is good if you go to someone to pray for you for an ailment, if they actually believe that God heals. Hebrews says that he that comes to God must believe that His is and that He is a Rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
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