Christianity is telling a bold faced lie in regard to atonement

[willymonfrete]

https://nojesus4jews.weebly.com/sophiee ... d-to-atone

jesus' sacrifice nor any other sacrifice is not necessary to be forgiven for sins,and hebrews makes a bold faced lie against the tanakh.Hebrews 9:22 misleads Christians into thinking you need blood to atone because it says “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” This is not biblical , Leviticus 17:11 isn’t speaking of the immortal soul, and it nowhere says that sins can’t be forgiven without blood.

Jewelry atones for the life force as does blood. "We therefore want to bring an offering to G-d. Every man who found any gold article [such as] and anklet, a bracelet, a finger ring, and earring, or a body ornament [wishes to bring it] to atone for our souls (life force) before G-d." Numbers 31:50.
When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the L-RD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them." NIV Exodus 30:12.

Samuel 12:13-14 David admits to sin before Nathan the prophet and repents and is forgiven
Jonah 3:10 has to do with the sins of Nineveh (unspecified, just identified as "evil" in 1:2), the people repented and G-d forgave
Leviticus 26:40-42 speaks of sin and repentence atoning for it


KINDNESS
Proverbs 16:6 an iniquity is atoned for with kindness
Daniel 4:24 by showing mercy and kindness

PRAYER (accompanied by repentance)
Hosea 14:2-3 prayer atones for sin
1 Kings 8:46-50 atoned for by prayer
Daniel 9:5-19 sin atoned by prayer
Isaiah 27:9 sins are atoned by removing idolatry
Exodus 30:15-16 money to atone for the soul (similar to blood in Leviticus 17:11)


Numbers 31:50 jewelry to atone for the soul (similar to blood in Leviticus 17:11)

Isaiah 6:6-13 An angel removes sin without blood sacrifice
Psalm 40
ז זֶבַח וּמִנְחָה, לֹא-חָפַצְתָּ-- אָזְנַיִם, כָּרִיתָ לִּי;
עוֹלָה וַחֲטָאָה, לֹא שָׁאָלְתָּ. 7 Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened; {N}
burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required.

So Jesus did not have to die and also his 'sacrifice'is not required nor is any sacrifice required for forgiveness like the new testament falsely claims.

[willymonfrete]

@MrMan it is wise for you to not believe books full of lies like the new testament,worship the ONE God of abraham not some wierd bloody human sacrifice polytheism.

[Pixel--Dude]

https://nojesus4jews.weebly.com/sophiee ... d-to-atone

jesus' sacrifice nor any other sacrifice is not necessary to be forgiven for sins,and hebrews makes a bold faced lie against the tanakh.Hebrews 9:22 misleads Christians into thinking you need blood to atone because it says “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” This is not biblical , Leviticus 17:11 isn’t speaking of the immortal soul, and it nowhere says that sins can’t be forgiven without blood.

Jewelry atones for the life force as does blood. "We therefore want to bring an offering to G-d. Every man who found any gold article [such as] and anklet, a bracelet, a finger ring, and earring, or a body ornament [wishes to bring it] to atone for our souls (life force) before G-d." Numbers 31:50.
When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the L-RD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them." NIV Exodus 30:12.

Samuel 12:13-14 David admits to sin before Nathan the prophet and repents and is forgiven
Jonah 3:10 has to do with the sins of Nineveh (unspecified, just identified as "evil" in 1:2), the people repented and G-d forgave
Leviticus 26:40-42 speaks of sin and repentence atoning for it


KINDNESS
Proverbs 16:6 an iniquity is atoned for with kindness
Daniel 4:24 by showing mercy and kindness

PRAYER (accompanied by repentance)
Hosea 14:2-3 prayer atones for sin
1 Kings 8:46-50 atoned for by prayer
Daniel 9:5-19 sin atoned by prayer
Isaiah 27:9 sins are atoned by removing idolatry
Exodus 30:15-16 money to atone for the soul (similar to blood in Leviticus 17:11)


Numbers 31:50 jewelry to atone for the soul (similar to blood in Leviticus 17:11)

Isaiah 6:6-13 An angel removes sin without blood sacrifice
Psalm 40
ז זֶבַח וּמִנְחָה, לֹא-חָפַצְתָּ-- אָזְנַיִם, כָּרִיתָ לִּי;
עוֹלָה וַחֲטָאָה, לֹא שָׁאָלְתָּ. 7 Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened; {N}
burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required.

So Jesus did not have to die and also his 'sacrifice'is not required nor is any sacrifice required for forgiveness like the new testament falsely claims.

The whole Bible is full of contradictions and stupidity. I've spoken before about how Jesus's sacrifice is essentially meaningless and makes absolutely no sense at all. This is the foundational principle of the New Testament and it is utterly absurd.

[willymonfrete]

https://nojesus4jews.weebly.com/sophiee ... d-to-atone

jesus' sacrifice nor any other sacrifice is not necessary to be forgiven for sins,and hebrews makes a bold faced lie against the tanakh.Hebrews 9:22 misleads Christians into thinking you need blood to atone because it says “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” This is not biblical , Leviticus 17:11 isn’t speaking of the immortal soul, and it nowhere says that sins can’t be forgiven without blood.

Jewelry atones for the life force as does blood. "We therefore want to bring an offering to G-d. Every man who found any gold article [such as] and anklet, a bracelet, a finger ring, and earring, or a body ornament [wishes to bring it] to atone for our souls (life force) before G-d." Numbers 31:50.
When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the L-RD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them." NIV Exodus 30:12.

Samuel 12:13-14 David admits to sin before Nathan the prophet and repents and is forgiven
Jonah 3:10 has to do with the sins of Nineveh (unspecified, just identified as "evil" in 1:2), the people repented and G-d forgave
Leviticus 26:40-42 speaks of sin and repentence atoning for it


KINDNESS
Proverbs 16:6 an iniquity is atoned for with kindness
Daniel 4:24 by showing mercy and kindness

PRAYER (accompanied by repentance)
Hosea 14:2-3 prayer atones for sin
1 Kings 8:46-50 atoned for by prayer
Daniel 9:5-19 sin atoned by prayer
Isaiah 27:9 sins are atoned by removing idolatry
Exodus 30:15-16 money to atone for the soul (similar to blood in Leviticus 17:11)


Numbers 31:50 jewelry to atone for the soul (similar to blood in Leviticus 17:11)

Isaiah 6:6-13 An angel removes sin without blood sacrifice
Psalm 40
ז זֶבַח וּמִנְחָה, לֹא-חָפַצְתָּ-- אָזְנַיִם, כָּרִיתָ לִּי;
עוֹלָה וַחֲטָאָה, לֹא שָׁאָלְתָּ. 7 Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened; {N}
burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required.

So Jesus did not have to die and also his 'sacrifice'is not required nor is any sacrifice required for forgiveness like the new testament falsely claims.

The whole Bible is full of contradictions and stupidity. I've spoken before about how Jesus's sacrifice is essentially meaningless and makes absolutely no sense at all. This is the foundational principle of the New Testament and it is utterly absurd.

I would like to read that,please link it.

I wonder what MrMan thinks of hebrews and christian doctrine blatantly going against the old testament in regard to this and telling lies about torah law.MrMan is a fundementalist fanatic so this will just go from one ear to the other like he didn't see it lol

[Pixel--Dude]

https://nojesus4jews.weebly.com/sophiee ... d-to-atone

jesus' sacrifice nor any other sacrifice is not necessary to be forgiven for sins,and hebrews makes a bold faced lie against the tanakh.Hebrews 9:22 misleads Christians into thinking you need blood to atone because it says “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” This is not biblical , Leviticus 17:11 isn’t speaking of the immortal soul, and it nowhere says that sins can’t be forgiven without blood.

Jewelry atones for the life force as does blood. "We therefore want to bring an offering to G-d. Every man who found any gold article [such as] and anklet, a bracelet, a finger ring, and earring, or a body ornament [wishes to bring it] to atone for our souls (life force) before G-d." Numbers 31:50.
When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the L-RD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them." NIV Exodus 30:12.

Samuel 12:13-14 David admits to sin before Nathan the prophet and repents and is forgiven
Jonah 3:10 has to do with the sins of Nineveh (unspecified, just identified as "evil" in 1:2), the people repented and G-d forgave
Leviticus 26:40-42 speaks of sin and repentence atoning for it


KINDNESS
Proverbs 16:6 an iniquity is atoned for with kindness
Daniel 4:24 by showing mercy and kindness

PRAYER (accompanied by repentance)
Hosea 14:2-3 prayer atones for sin
1 Kings 8:46-50 atoned for by prayer
Daniel 9:5-19 sin atoned by prayer
Isaiah 27:9 sins are atoned by removing idolatry
Exodus 30:15-16 money to atone for the soul (similar to blood in Leviticus 17:11)


Numbers 31:50 jewelry to atone for the soul (similar to blood in Leviticus 17:11)

Isaiah 6:6-13 An angel removes sin without blood sacrifice
Psalm 40
ז זֶבַח וּמִנְחָה, לֹא-חָפַצְתָּ-- אָזְנַיִם, כָּרִיתָ לִּי;
עוֹלָה וַחֲטָאָה, לֹא שָׁאָלְתָּ. 7 Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened; {N}
burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required.

So Jesus did not have to die and also his 'sacrifice'is not required nor is any sacrifice required for forgiveness like the new testament falsely claims.

The whole Bible is full of contradictions and stupidity. I've spoken before about how Jesus's sacrifice is essentially meaningless and makes absolutely no sense at all. This is the foundational principle of the New Testament and it is utterly absurd.

I would like to read that,please link it.

I wonder what MrMan thinks of hebrews and christian doctrine blatantly going against the old testament in regard to this and telling lies about torah law.MrMan is a fundementalist fanatic so this will just go from one ear to the other like he didn't see it lol

Sacrifice of animals was common before the times of Jesus Christ, because as Paul said "The wages of sin are death!" People today value different things, but back then people would have valued animals for their food, clothing and financial security. So someone committing a sin would sacrifice one of their valued animals to God to atone for their sin.

The reason Christians don't sacrifice animals anymore is because of the substitutional sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Both were means to the same end, which was accounting for sin. Here are 5 distinctions between the two forms of sacrifice:

1. The first important distinction is that when an animal is sacrificed it does not come back to life. It is a permanent loss. If among your flock you had an animal that could bring itself back from the dead, how meaningful would it be to sacrifice that particular animal? How would that even be a loss or a sacrifice if the animal just came back to you after you lost it?

2. The second distinction is that animal sacrifice was not retroactive like the sacrifice of Jesus. First came sin and then the sacrifice followed. This is true for everyone before the sacrifice of Jesus Christ but not after. It would be shallow and insincere to kill an animal as an insurance policy just in case you sin in the future, or preemptively performing a sacrifice today so you can sin tomorrow. The sacrifice loses its meaning when you can sin with the knowledge that a sacrifice has already been made on your behalf. With the knowledge of the sacrifice of Jesus people know their sacrifice was already made and this can become a consideration for pretty much any sin.

3. Animals do not choose to be sacrificed is another distinction. They were chosen by their owners. How would the meaning of the sacrifice change if it were the animal that volunteered to be sacrificed? Thusly taking away responsibility from their owners? The focus would shift from it being the owners act to the animals act. This would fundamentally changing the dynamic for atonement, yet this is exactly what can be observed with Christianity. Jesus, unlike the animal, was a willing participant in his own sacrifice.

4. A fourth distinction is that people killed animals they valued, that is why the sacrifice is supposed to have meaning. But the people who killed Jesus did not value him. For whom was Jesus truly sacrificed?

5. Finally, animals were sacrificed to atone for the sin of the person who killed them. A sacrifice must be an intentional act for it to be considered a sacrifice, yet the people who killed Jesus didn't kill him for him to be offered as a sacrifice. When someone offered an animal as a sacrifice they intended that animal to be a sacrifice for their sin, in Christianity however it was God who valued Jesus and God who intentionally offered Jesus as a sacrifice. Given what we know about sacrifice this tells us that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was because God did something wrong and God offered a valued sacrifice to atone for God's wrongdoing. Because sacrificing Jesus would not be a logical way for humans to atone for their sin, but it would be a logical way for God to atone. Jesus never belonged to us, he belonged to God and therefore wasn't ours to sacrifice.

What if Christianity makes more sense if it is God who is asking humanity for forgiveness? And what if that is why the teachings of Jesus were mostly about the value of forgiveness? Yahweh trying to win over humanity with a sacrifice which loses its meaning when that which he offered as a sacrifice would just come back to him.

The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is the foundational principle on which the entire religion is built. But what do the previous considerations tell us about its true meaning?

[Pixel--Dude]

viewtopic.php?style=11&p=377005#p377005

It was made in this thread here. The thread has some interesting discussion if you want to have a browse through.

[willymonfrete]

@MrMan though paul contradicts himself often,his main soteriology is that God justifies the wicked thru grace by faith,yet proverbs says this is a abomination to YHWH.

where are you bro?Usually you are quick to respond on these types of topics,trying to get me to be a christian polytheist pagan.

[willymonfrete]

@MrMan

[MrMan]

I got notifications on this thread when I was so busy with work, I was staying up late, even pulling all nighters.

So I'll respond. Israel had a priest who was to make an annual sacrifice for the sins of the people. Those other verses about atonement you mention are written to people who did have animal sacrifices for their sins every year. Within that context, one might show kindness, etc.

Some of the verses you mentioned do not speak of atonement per se. I think you have totally the wrong verse for Daniel. Daniel 4:24 has nothing to do with the point you are making.

You are also missing the point of Paul's writings on this topic that there is a 'righteousness apart from the law, being witnessed by the law and the prophets'. He even mentions 'blessed is the man whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin.' What David did could not be atoned for, unless you count his own blood as 'atonement'-- but atonement would be a substitute for such a thing. But through faith he found forgiveness from sins. That's Paul's point. Outside of the law given through Moses, God can also forgiven just by His grace, through faith. That idea is found in the Old Testament. But in the law, atonement comes through blood.

[88jose88]

I got notifications on this thread when I was so busy with work, I was staying up late, even pulling all nighters.

So I'll respond. Israel had a priest who was to make an annual sacrifice for the sins of the people. Those other verses about atonement you mention are written to people who did have animal sacrifices for their sins every year. Within that context, one might show kindness, etc.

Some of the verses you mentioned do not speak of atonement per se. I think you have totally the wrong verse for Daniel. Daniel 4:24 has nothing to do with the point you are making.

You are also missing the point of Paul's writings on this topic that there is a 'righteousness apart from the law, being witnessed by the law and the prophets'. He even mentions 'blessed is the man whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin.' What David did could not be atoned for, unless you count his own blood as 'atonement'-- but atonement would be a substitute for such a thing. But through faith he found forgiveness from sins. That's Paul's point. Outside of the law given through Moses, God can also forgiven just by His grace, through faith. That idea is found in the Old Testament. But in the law, atonement comes through blood.

Either only blood atones or not,it is not,so paul lied.

nebuchadnezzar was forgiven when there was no temple,simply by praying.stop adding things and deleting things from the Torah.

[MrMan]

I got notifications on this thread when I was so busy with work, I was staying up late, even pulling all nighters.

So I'll respond. Israel had a priest who was to make an annual sacrifice for the sins of the people. Those other verses about atonement you mention are written to people who did have animal sacrifices for their sins every year. Within that context, one might show kindness, etc.

Some of the verses you mentioned do not speak of atonement per se. I think you have totally the wrong verse for Daniel. Daniel 4:24 has nothing to do with the point you are making.

You are also missing the point of Paul's writings on this topic that there is a 'righteousness apart from the law, being witnessed by the law and the prophets'. He even mentions 'blessed is the man whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin.' What David did could not be atoned for, unless you count his own blood as 'atonement'-- but atonement would be a substitute for such a thing. But through faith he found forgiveness from sins. That's Paul's point. Outside of the law given through Moses, God can also forgiven just by His grace, through faith. That idea is found in the Old Testament. But in the law, atonement comes through blood.

Either only blood atones or not,it is not,so paul lied.

You are using the word atone. Hebrews uses remission. Are you assuming Pauline argument of Hebrews. Read the specific argument in Hebrews.