Moving overseas. The dark side.

[cdnFA]

A story from Quora in italics followed by some comments by me.

My American cousin moved to Japan in 1969 after being posted there with the Peace Corps (Japan was still developing at that time).

He was enthusiastic, a "Japanophile", falling in love with many of the positive aspects of the country.

(I am a long term expat myself, though not in Japan. Much of what I will write below is true for many countries, not just Japan, as an expat. Some is unique to Japan. Also, do not misinterpret what I write as dislike of Japan. It is, perhaps, one of my favorite destinations for work or holiday.... but I would never live there)

Continuing on....

He became fluent in Japanese, married a Japanese girl, and had a son, who is half Japanese and a citizen. His language skill after nearly 50 years means that most Japanese people cannot tell that he is an American when speaking over the telephone.

And.... he is often very, very unhappy.I will note that he has been very successful financially. He owns aeveral houses and has done very well for himself.

Japanese society is incredibly closed to outsiders. There are also huge racial divides and predjudices. His son, who was born there and is half Japanese will NEVER be fully accepted there as Japanese. His wife effectively lost her entire family because she married a gaijin. The few remaining family members are just beginning to accept him after 45 years. His son was teased and bullied mercilessly in school because he was not really Japanese. The culture is unforgiving, punishes failure, and does not reward individualism. If you are the type who "sticks out" or likes to march to your own drummer, life in Japan may not be for you and may be very, very difficult.

This is truth.

This was very hard for him to accept. He did everything an expat is "supposed" to do in order to assimilate. He did everything "right". He later became very much disillusioned, and then angry, and finally accepting of his place in Japanese society. Note: This was a very difficult journey for him. He has become they "man without a country". He has been in Japan so long that he no longer "fits in" when he returns to the USA. But he will never be fully Japanese, either. That is simply the way it is.

I live in the Philippines. My wife is Filipina. My son is Filipino. The Philippines is far more open socially. Yet, I also know that I will never, EVER, be considered Filipino.

My comments.
This is of particular reference to those who don't want to bring their wives back home.

1:Yes things have improved a bit over time but it is still something I read about quite often.
2: WRT China and Japan and I assume Korea, most people split after a year or two, some having liked the experience and some not. If you stay, the next point is the 5 to 7 year mark. Very few people last much beyond that point, the only ones who do stay only because they have family who doesn't want to leave or they are stuck because of employment. The isolation of Japan, the feeling that the Chinese only want to use you for connections and English lessons to the point where some long timers hermit up. It seems to take 5 to 7 years for reality to set it.
3: Obviously there are exceptions. Duh. I am not sure, but I think Yohan seems to be one.
4: I suspect it would be much like that in most of Asia. You can gain acceptance if you have wealth by local standards of course but you will always be an outsider. Maybe the Philippines is a bit different but buddy doesn't seem to think so and that wealth effect would hide a lot. Thailand gets lot of claims of being a land of fake smiles and being pretty racist. India might be an exception because it, much like the Americas are pretty multicultural in a way most places are not, just don't speak Hindi to a Tamil .
5: There is a huge difference between living in a place for a year or two and living there forever. There is also a huge difference knowing the language well and not knowing it at all. A lot of folks in Japan seem to say that learning Japanese beyond a survival basis is a bad idea because 1: They don't want you to and 2: the blinders come off and you realize what is actually going on.

[The_Adventurer]

Mostly true, but things have improved a lot since 1969. Still, here's an idea: Don't try to fit in!

Why would you want to?Be the foreigner! That is where the advantage lies. If you're going to move overseas, as a foreigner, then be the foreigner!. It makes about as much sense going to Japan and trying to be Japanese as moving to a poverty ridden black neighbourhood and trying to be one of them. No one ever considers doing that.

Guys who do well in places like China, for example that guy Dashan, they don't try to be Chinese. His whole advantage is that he is a white foreigner who speaks near perfect Chinese. Trying to be Chinese would defeat the purpose of what he is doing and kill his success.

That black actor who is doing well in Japan is the same. You don't see him trying to be Japanese. He makes advantage of the fact that he is not. Thus, he is very successful.

I can't imagine why I would never want to Chinese or Japanese, or be just another face in a crowd of billions. I could stay home for that.

[Jester]

Mostly true, but things have improved a lot since 1969. Still, here's an idea: Don't try to fit in!

Why would you want to?Be the foreigner! That is where the advantage lies. If you're going to move overseas, as a foreigner, then be the foreigner!. It makes about as much sense going to Japan and trying to be Japanese as moving to a poverty ridden black neighbourhood and trying to be one of them. No one ever considers doing that.

Guys who do well in places like China, for example that guy Dashan, they don't try to be Chinese. His whole advantage is that he is a white foreigner who speaks near perfect Chinese. Trying to be Chinese would defeat the purpose of what he is doing and kill his success.

That black actor who is doing well in Japan is the same. You don't see him trying to be Japanese. He makes advantage of the fact that he is not. Thus, he is very successful.

I can't imagine why I would never want to Chinese or Japanese, or be just another face in a crowd of billions. I could stay home for that.

You nailed it.

[cdnFA]

I have heard that also. However I'd guess that not many people could deal with decades of not fitting in. Trust me, it isn't pleasant.
Also being a freak is much easier when you get paid quite a bit to do it.
One could just stay in the foreigner bubble, but if that is the case, you might as well stay home.

I am glad you guys raised that point though.

[MrMan]

You can also settle down in a looser multi-ethnic society. Indonesia has lots of cultures and customs. So they don't expect everyone to be exactly the same like they do in Japan or Korea.

I was talking to an expat at Hardee's in South Korea. He said his daughter didn't like mayonaise on her chicken sandwich, but they gave her one with mayo anyway. When she complained, the person behind the counter said, "But everyone eats it with mayonaise'. He said it's like they think everyone has to be the same. Foreigners really stick out in this environment. I remember waiting at a bus stop and looking at every single person on one side of a bus staring at me as I waited as a red light.

You stick out in Jakarta, but they like foreigners and consider them to be rich and high class. Lots of women like foreigners. Parents don't mind having them as son-in-laws if they are decent men. If you are different, that's cool. They are used to different. There are lots of different people-groups, customs, and languages anyway. If you get married and go hang out at family gatherings, some in-laws will hang out and talk with you.

And the food is great. I don't think anyone every gave me any kind of raw meat to eat. And prices were cheap, at least when I was there.

Customs were different, but it's not like Japan or Korea where there is some intricate code for how they talk ("Let me think about it" means "no.") and for how they behave and you are the only person who doesn't know it. They are used to people doing things different ways and communicating a little different. Some of those north Asian cultures are kind of uptight. Southeast Asians are laid back, and they have an ethic of making people feel comfortable in social interactions. So they try not to offend, but also just try to put you at ease.

Teaching in a classroom, getting Koreans or Chinese to talk or discuss something is like pulling teeth. Get a classroom of Indonesians together and they'll joke around a bit, without being disrespectful. They make more fun students to teach.

If you like Japan and want to live there, good for you. But there are going to be characteristics of the Japan expat experience that aren't the same in other countries.

[Jester]

You can also settle down in a looser multi-ethnic society. Indonesia has lots of cultures and customs. So they don't expect everyone to be exactly the same like they do in Japan or Korea......

The more I read and hear, the more I am set on a future among Islanders. Indonesia, Sarawak, Philippines. It seems these are the most tolerant and welcoming people.

[Ghost]

.

[cdnFA]

I don't know much about Indonesia. It is a Moslem country and although it doesn't come across as nearly dirka dirka jihad jihad as some other places, I wonder how willing a Moslem women and her family would take to marrying a heathen. Ditto for not wanting kids. I get the impression that the 10% who are in to that jebus fellow are also pretty traditional. As an Atheist who doesn't want kids, I have no problems with a woman who is religious as long as she doesn't expect me to convert and isn't too annoying about it, but I wonder how someone like that would feel about me.

That has so far kept the place of my map, but my mind can be changed.

But think about this: are you treated like 'one of them' in your own country? I know I'm not in the U.S. I've felt more at home in China than in modern American culture. What's more, imagine you got into an argument into with a feminist in your own country. You be excoriated. If you're a man, you're already like a foreigner in your own land: a third class 'citizen' with few to no rights.

I am Canadian through and through. I belong here. I am at home here. Sadly the women don't seem to be keen on me and quite frankly I understand why, it isn't a culture thing I was a bit of a weirdo. The friends I've made though the old school roleplaying [pen paper and dice] were solid bros who I relate to. Shared cultural references is something I value. I've gotten better over time but alas I am in a small town where meeting people is very difficult. At least overseas I would stand out like a sore thumb. I am not just another anonymous white guy, I am that Gaijin/Laowei/Frarang or whatever guy.

I don't know the sorts of people who are hanging out with but I don't have a problem with feminists. It seems the man hating female privilege seeking unreasonable types are actually pretty rare. Although I do acknowledge that men are oppressed, to suggest we have few to no rights is a bit of an overstatement. Unfairly treated sure but no rights? Granted I have no kids and don't need to work so most of it doesn't impact me at all.
Once in a while a vaginal-canadian will say something negative about dudes, I counter by pointing out that women are just like men, only lacking reason and accountability. It separates the hypocrites from those who just enjoy taking the piss as they say in the UK.

[yick]

The OP has never been abroad as far as I know. He is just trying to legitimise his lack of guts for not trying.

Still - The Adventurer nails it once again (as does Yohan many times...) - you're never going to fit in to an East Asian society and become 'one of them' even if you get citizenship and become fluent in their language.

So what? That's good! You're free of their rules and expectations - it is a very good thing in a lot of ways - cdnFA will never understand that many people in the Far East are tied around cultural expectations and rules - how many of my students have told me that their parents picked their university major? Lots of them, who they're to marry or at least who is deemed suitable, what kind of job - again, one of my students wanted to join the army but her parents wouldn't allow her - we're free of all that crap - a lot of locals wish they were free of that crap too.

I can understand people who have all their family circle coming from the same town (which is a lot of British people...) being distressed over not being 'accepted' if they move somewhere else because they have been accepted all their lives in their hometown - where their parents, siblings, grandparents, friends etc all live - it is alien to them NOT to be accepted - especially if they go out of the way in learning the language and being respectful of the social customs.

So they start demanding acceptance (without wanting the negatives such acceptance brings - of course - how many naturalised citizens of South Korea wait until they're too old for military service before they make the application?) and they still never ever get it because there are responsibilities as well as rights when it comes to living in a society - double that for a Confucian, East Asian one.

There are course people who will accept you as 'one of them' your wife, girlfriends, friends - your little small circle but most people won't.

The 'Happier Abroad' thing, most people aren't suited to it. They really aren't.

NB: Latin America and the Philippines are different to this, as a Latin American - I am white and middle class whereas in the UK - I am neither of those things. In Latin America I am more accepted than I am in Asia as a white, middle class person but that comes with it's own negatives (dealing with the cops, being overcharged, being seen as a 'mark') but my kids if I have them - with my surname and if they inherit my height - will always do a lot better than they would back in the UK - Marcos talks about this a lot in his posts regarding his own children - you can have a social upgrade in some places whereas in other places - you're completely frozen out of the social ladder.

[ladislav]

As far as being a Filipino, in the PH, nationalism is based on three things: language, birthplace and citizenship. To wit: if you speak a language, such as Tagalog, people call you Tagalog. They say. " This guy is a Tagalog". Citizenship. People ask you what nationality you are all the time and they just mean citizenship. If you become a citizen of the PH, you are "a Filipino by choice". Nativism there is basically, if you are naturalized, you cannot hold any gov't position. Mixed kids are well received though, and mixed boys get a lot of attention from girls and vice versa. Note that the Filipino identity was basically created by Spaniards and Americans. This is totally different from Japan.
This is not to say that an average Filipino will not see you as different if you are a white, black or yellow man. He will. But there are no insane racial barriers as with the Japanese.
Having said that, Filipinos can also be racist and exhibit typical Asian racism. So, not all is hunky dorey.

For example, they love white foreigners who speak just a tad of Filipino but mostly speak English and that is who many girls want to date. A Tagalog speaking foreigner is not as attractive. I remember dating a girl who would tell me to speak English because I looked ridiculous speaking Tagalog. She wanted to bring home "an Amerikano".

Also, the higher social class of a Filipino, the more racist they tend to be. Kind of the opposite of the USA.

But still, in the Philippines, all foreigners get a girlfriend, all foreigners have lots of friends, it's OK.

[ladislav]

An immigrant experience in the USA for many ( if that is overseas for some people) is that Americans- in addition to racist- as a rule, are very nativistic. "Where're you from? Where were you born?", is how Americans determine who a person is.

If one is not born in the USA ( or of American parents on some overseas assignment) one is never an American because the, "Where are you from ( originally)?' is always hanging over one's head. For life. " Foreigner, not born here". Or, " immigrant" ( legal or illegal, does not matter) is what one is called forever.

There is a " foreign born" tag on one, too. For example one hears. "A German- born scientist".

Naturalization is a formal thing and it gets you into doors legally, but not socially as an American. An American is a person from the USA by birth. Things are also easier for Anglos such as Aussies, Brits, etc. but less so for non Anglos.

Not all Americans are like that, but most are. So, if the USA is "overseas" for one, that is the bs you have to deal with on part with the Japanese pure blood vs gaijin bs. Also, most American women do not like to date/marry foreign-borns ( unless one is an Anglo).

So, people want to be American patriots, but they are never allowed to be them fully. Unless they have no accent and conceal their origins at all times and lie.

And the legal part of it is that a naturalized person can never become President or Vice President. Which shows that even the law never truly trusts them through no fault of their own. In Germany, Turkey, France, Ukraine, Canada, etc, otoh, a naturalized person can hold any office. even that of President/PM. etc. So, in the USA, a naturalized person is not a 100% citizen legally, and definitely not one socially in most cases.
I've heard quite a few people complain about it but they don't want to tell Americans about it because they don't want to be yelled at to "go back" and hear the "don't let the door slam you on your ass".



In America, one too is supposed to know one's place.

[E Irizarry R&B Singer]

....In America, one too is supposed to know one's place.

I remember you saying this a few years ago on HA. Question: do you think most Black American and Afro-Caribbean women, are purposely put into juxtaposition, when working in the U.S. of Gay to purposely make Black American men hit the glass ceiling which is underneath their hooves? Especially since most of those women are in U.S. middle management/HR/etc.?