Questions about Africa

[Winston]

"In other words, they love being "robots"."

There is a difference between working a lot and working hard, and being a robot. The image of the Chinese you have does not have much bearing upon what I see in my small rural city. I see lots of smiles and joking and playing chess and cards and mahjong and stuff. When you look at them acting as such, they 'serous up' their face, but in truth the people in my area are happy people. You should have felt the vibe this afternoon when school let out at noon.

Taiwan is not Mainland China and the two cultures are different.

"Also, when American or Chinese groups gather, there is a lot of fake politeness, cliches and "going through the motions" rather than deep substantive. conversation."

Yeah, I will remember that the next time the headmaster and I run into each other and he tells me about how someone got killed due to falling debris from the building that is being repaired and that's why it is being worked on so fervently, and why he is stressed out, and why his mobile rings constantly.

Yep, totally non-substantive.

I am referring to the Chinese I see in the USA, Canada, and Taiwan.

Also, keep in mind that it's relative. If you lived in the Philippines and went to your town in China, they might appear the way I describe, in comparison to the Philippines. It depends on where you're coming from.

[Rock]

Winston, have you ever lived in or near an African American community? If you had, I believe your perception about this issue might be more balanced.

For example, before I came to Taiwan, I got the impression from my university campus that Taiwan people were serious and educated bookworm types who tended to wear glasses, lol. But when I got here, I saw all types. My old impressions were shattered.

No but if I did, I'm sure I would have the same observation.

A very high percentage of people in Taiwan ARE bookworm types with glasses, very shy and introverted too. I see them all the time. Of course there are different types. There are different types of people at boxing matches too, but that doesn't change the pattern there that it's mostly men. Patterns exist.

Are you claiming that patterns don't exist? Or that everything is in equal percentages everywhere?

Stereotypes are not absolute, but they are not false. They exist for a reason and are based on truth. Only politically correct people deny that.

Stereotypes are not always from Hollywood. Often they are based on people's firsthand perception and experience. I don't get why they are a taboo. Insurance companies stereotype people all the time when they assess risk. It works. If stereotypes were all false, then it wouldn't work. But it does.

8 x's and 2 o's is a pattern of x's. The 2 o's do not erase the x's. Surely you understand that don't you?

Are you challenging my claim that most black Americans are laid back, relaxed and down to earth? If so, why? All the ones I've met that I remember were like that. Why is that hard to believe?

It does seem that more Asian students wear glasses than White students. You never noticed that?

Why do people get defensive at obvious patterns when they are applied to people?

Races are not all the same. There are differences of patterns and tendencies. Why is that so hard for many to understand? Weird.

1. Yes, venue is important and Taiwan is a big island. I see a lot of the bookworm types when I go to National Taiwan Uni during school season to exercise. But I don’t very many of them in the Taipei 101/Vieshow area or Chungxiao Eastern District where a lot of people are more fashion conscious. Don't see too many at Tonghua Night Market not far from where I live. Back when I stayed in Wan Hua district, I rarely saw that type. If we were just to focus on young men living in Taipei, I think that less than a third, perhaps even less than a quarter, would strike me as bookworm types. However, I definitely concede that Taiwan probably has a higher percentage of them than the States.

2. No, I don’t claim that patterns don’t exist. But when you openly observe them in people and the so-called ‘races’, you may be opening a big can of worms, especially with American whites and blacks. Even the idea of race is debatable with some geneticists arguing that it’s not a valid concept; not that I agree. Anyway, isn’t this forum’s brand of anti-PC more about attacking feminism and America’s absurd society?

3. Regarding your 8x’s and 2o’s pattern, substitute the x’s with red and the o’s with black at an American roulette wheel. Many wheels post results from the last 15 or so spins. So perhaps I find a wheel where the last 10 results were 8 reds and 2 whites. Now even though this is a red pattern according to your definition, it will not likely hold as the sample size (number of spins) increases given the broader reality of this specific case – expected value of red same as for black. After a 1,000 spins or so, you can be fairly sure that the spin results would be approximate what real chance would predict them to be: 47.4% red, 47.4% black, 5.2% neither. It turns out that the assumption of a pattern based on those 10 observations was false. Consider the “Law of Large Numbers� and how it applies to real life. My point is you need a large sample size before you can begin to grasp true general trends. A couple dozen samples from limited context of your own environment is not necessarily representative of the wider reality.

4. I spent 2 years at a university on the south side of Chicago. The student body was just over 20% black but the community in which the school was located was over 99% African American. Yes, I saw plenty of laid back, relaxed, and outgoing types. But I also saw a lot of people who looked very depressed and switched-off or just angry. The dorm and food service employees, typically middle aged people from the immediate area, generally had a look of hopelessness in their eyes and performed their duties like robots. Groups of high school kids who walked through our campus after class were loud and sometimes aggressive. Strangers looking their way would often get verbally attacked or challenged. Freshman uni students quickly learned to avert gaze and keep some distance from them.

[ladislav]

That is complete and utter nonsense. Ethiopia has one of the longest histories of any land on this planet, being mentioned (as an already developed and trading nation) in Egyptian records going back as far as 3000 BC. Both Ethiopia and Somalia have historically contained numerous tribes and there was plenty of ancient mixing with semitic groups and even greeks. Saying that Ethiopians or Somalians are anything, let alone caucasian, is absolute rubbish, for they are not any one thing. They are racially and culturally diverse, from the Falasha people of the highlands (who claim direct lineage to King Solomon) to the Eastern Rift, to nomadic Taureg and to Amharic peoples.

Caucasian has generally meant "peoples of the Caucasus" region. Ethiopians do not come from the caucasus region. They come from Ethiopia. Aside from previously mentioned racial mixes, they are indigenous. Granted, some might wish to subscribe to more modern linguistically based definitions of caucasian, but you might notice that that would make sub-sarahan Nubians from Cush caucasian as well.

You know, I agree with you. All these classifications are arbitrary and artificial. People try to pigeonhole humans into some kind of convenient categories based on facial features and attach simplistic names to them.

[ladislav]

Let us try the same propaganda trick with America maybe we will get someone to send money to us, lol.

This is the USA:









(image below too big to embed, click on it)
http://lebbeuswoods.files.wordpress.com ... sny-1a.jpg

American people and the American way of life:













Now you see how propaganda works.

[Shokkers]

I was wondering a few things about Africa:

1. Why is it that the media always show starving children in Africa or Ethiopia with barely any flesh left? If the kids there have nothing to eat and all die in childhood, then where do all the parents come from that keep having so many children?

A: Sex is one of the only things poor people have to look forward to; B: The infant mortality rate is so high most people name their kids "Please don't die on us too soon". (Only translated into their native language.)

Is most of Ethiopia like that? If not, why doesn't the rest of the population there that have food just share some with the ones that are starving?

A: It can't be. I had an Ethiopian roommate in college, the dude was around 290 pounds.

2. Are there any safe and modern parts of Africa? If so, where?

A: I felt somewhat safe--albeit harrassed--in Morocco. South Africa seems pretty modern, too.

3. How come whenever I had a college professor from Africa, he was always very strict and anal about little things and overloaded us with work? Is that how Africans are when they come from the educated class? They are nothing like the laid back and relaxed blacks in America.

A: Got me on that one.

4. Is most of Africa really that primitive? Or is that just Hollywood propaganda?

A: 'Hollywood' doesn't seem to bother with Africa too much...besides Blood Diamond and Hotel Rwanda, I haven't seen a whole lot of films about Africa.
It does seem that Islam, and old tribal rivalries, keep a lot of African Countries divided and poor, though.

[Winston]

Rock,

Question: Is it your claim that other than skin color, white and black people are the same? If not, what are some differences between them? Or is that too much of a taboo for you to answer?

Keep in mind that in comparisons we are talking in relative terms. For example, if you compare the air in Los Angeles to the air in New Delhi, the air in LA will seem so fresh, crisp and clean in comparison. But if you compare LA to Seattle or Denver, LA will seem smoggy in comparison.

Likewise, black people in America DO seem a lot more relaxed, open, easy going and down to earth to talk to, than the white people there do. They are far more cheerful and easy to talk to, at least toward me. That's for sure.

Now I don't know why that is. Maybe due to their mistreatment and racism against them, they are more humble and less spoiled. Or maybe they grew up in poorer conditions which did not spoil them. Or maybe it's genetic. Who knows. But the difference IS there. I know it. Why deny it?

You do not need a large sample size to see obvious things. For example, you don't need a large sample size to know that parents don't want their kids to be kidnapped. Some things are obvious common sense. Agreed?

[Winston]

Lol. Great images Ladislav.

I embedded them for you. Next time, you can embed the image links by simply inserting the image URL between these tags:

Code: Select all

[img]URL[/img]

But it has to be a direct image URL though, which usually end in .jpg or .gif

You can copy an image URL by right clicking on an image and selecting "Copy Image Location".

[Rock]

Rock,

Question: Is it your claim that other than skin color, white and black people are the same? If not, what are some differences between them? Or is that too much of a taboo for you to answer?

Keep in mind that in comparisons we are talking in relative terms. For example, if you compare the air in Los Angeles to the air in New Delhi, the air in LA will seem so fresh, crisp and clean in comparison. But if you compare LA to Seattle or Denver, LA will seem smoggy in comparison.

Likewise, black people in America DO seem a lot more relaxed, open, easy going and down to earth to talk to, than the white people there do. They are far more cheerful and easy to talk to, at least toward me. That's for sure.

Now I don't know why that is. Maybe due to their mistreatment and racism against them, they are more humble and less spoiled. Or maybe they grew up in poorer conditions which did not spoil them. Or maybe it's genetic. Who knows. But the difference IS there. I know it. Why deny it?

You do not need a large sample size to see obvious things. For example, you don't need a large sample size to know that parents don't want their kids to be kidnapped. Some things are obvious common sense. Agreed?

1. This issue is a sensitive one so I would rather not discuss these differences.

2. Your comments about black people are not obvious nor common sense. They sound one sided and naive to me. Go live in a large black community in say Miami, Chicago, or even a smaller town like East St. Louis, IL for a few months. Read some books written by African American authors about their lives in black urban or suburban communities. Talk to guys who've dated lots of black American girls. Then see if you still believe they're more humble and easygoing and less spoiled on average? I believe neither you nor I are qualified to talk about the issue in depth give our limited exposure. Perhaps some white and black guys who grew up in harder core urban environments can shed some more light on these issues.

3. Your example about parents not wanting their kids to be kidnapped is an obvious common sense non-debatable issue. I think a reasonable person would agree with that. But your comments about blacks as compared to whites is very debatable and likely to draw diverse opinions. The extent of your personal experience in this case (observational sample size) has a big impact on the validity of your opinion. Perhaps others with better quality experience can weigh-in?

[Winston]

Rock, you are playing with words again. It doesn't matter if I've lived in a black neighborhood or not. Sure there might be dark truths about them that I don't know. But my experience is that blacks tend to be far more easy going and relaxed and open TO ME AT LEAST than whites are.

Why deny that? Do you think I can't tell the difference between a friendly person and stuck up one? Why would I lie about this?

How do you explain my experiences then? They are real.

Again, is it your claim that other than skin color, there are no differences between whites, blacks, asians, etc.?

Also, your statement for question 1 about it being too sensitive for you to address, indicates that you do have some political correctness in you, that you are not willing to tell the truth with no holds barred.

I'll bet that if a crowd of people disagreed with you, you wouldn't dare to speak out against them, even if you knew for certain that you were right and they were wrong. Right?

[Contrarian Expatriate]

Are you claiming that patterns don't exist? Or that everything is in equal percentages everywhere?

Stereotypes are not absolute, but they are not false. They exist for a reason and are based on truth. Only politically correct people deny that.

Are you challenging my claim that most black Americans are laid back, relaxed and down to earth? If so, why? All the ones I've met that I remember were like that. Why is that hard to believe?

Why do people get defensive at obvious patterns when they are applied to people?

Races are not all the same. There are differences of patterns and tendencies. Why is that so hard for many to understand? Weird.

Don't you realize that most people stereotype black Americans to be the exact opposite of what you believe? Most people believe that black American women are the most high-strung and lash-out prone women in the world. Yet, you think they are laid back?

Most people believe that black American men are the most irrationally violent and confrontational group in the US. They cite violent crime conviction rates as proof.

Now you come along with your few interactions and tell most Americans that their stereotype of blacks is wrong and yours is correct. While it would be nice if you were correct, you are not.

Winston, I'm beginning to question your understanding of American society in general. Even your description of whites is off-kilter. Sure there are uptight and snobby whites (usually upper or upper-middle class), but there are laid back and down to earth whites too (often middle or working class).

You grossly oversimplify groups of people without a clue of the complexities among them. If I go to Taiwan, and have a wonderful time with the people, I'd be a fool to wholesale declare how great they are without realizing that in some cities, areas, and social classes, they would slit my throat.

This is the nuance you fully miss Winston. I'm happy you have such a positive perception of black people, but you just don't have the breadth of personal knowledge to know any better. The facts are that the minority of educated and law-abiding black men tend to be laid back, and very few black women at all are laid back. Those are the facts.

[globetrotter]

"Caucasian has generally meant "peoples of the Caucasus" region."

No it doesn't.

Humans have 3 taxonomical groupings:

Negroid
Caucasoid
Mongoloid

This has to do with the underlying facio-cranial bone structure and it has nothing to do with skin color, intelligence, culture, income or language.

Ethiopians, Iranians, Indians, Americans, etc. are Caucasoid.
People originally from sub-Saharan Africa are Negroid with the obvious exception of European immigrants in SA and the like.
People originally from SE Asia such as China, Japan, etc. are Mongoloid.

These groupings are now Un-PC and thus have been dropped by many apologists.

When you walk down the street in China and every once in a while, maybe once a week, you see someone who has an Australopithecian face with very wide high cheekbones, large eyes and and narrowed jaw with a large mouth (she was hot, btw), you realize the truthfulness to those groupings.

[Rock]

Rock, you are playing with words again. It doesn't matter if I've lived in a black neighborhood or not. Sure there might be dark truths about them that I don't know. But my experience is that blacks tend to be far more easy going and relaxed and open TO ME AT LEAST than whites are.

You’re the one playing with words. Before you said “Are you challenging my claim that most black Americans are laid back, relaxed and down to earth?� and “But the difference IS there. I know it. Why deny it?� In these statements, you were referring to most black Americans, not just the tiny number you have known in your life. Wouldn’t you agree that most refers to at least 80% or more?

Now, in this post, you are saying “But my experience is that blacks tend to be far more easy going and relaxed and open TO ME AT LEAST than whites are�. That’s a different statement. Now you're just referring to people you have known. This distinction between your experience and the broader reality was the point of the roulette wheel analogy I brought up in an earlier post of this thread. Was that lost on you?

Why deny that? Do you think I can't tell the difference between a friendly person and stuck up one? Why would I lie about this?

How do you explain my experiences then? They are real.

I don’t deny your personal experience, your ability to distinguish between friendly and stuck-up people, or your honesty.

Your experiences are real. However, I suspect they are very limited. My explanation for them is the same as it is for 10 roulette wheel spins vs. 1,000. Making generalization based on a small set of examples is a very subjective. If your sample size is 10 individuals, its just as prone to error as observing a single roulette series of 8 reds and 2 whites, calling it a pattern, and claiming that expected value on future spins is 80% red and 20% white.

Moreover, one could claim that the sort of people you attract as friends and acquaintances are not necessarily representative of the groups they come from. Many of your forum members are Americans. But I don’t think they are very typical ones.

Again, is it your claim that other than skin color, there are no differences between whites, blacks, asians, etc.?

No, that is not at all my claim.

Also, your statement for question 1 about it being too sensitive for you to address, indicates that you do have some political correctness in you, that you are not willing to tell the truth with no holds barred.

It’s probably best to avoid certain topics in an open forum. The race issue is a very complicated one and I don’t have the answers, just my own opinions which are subject to change. I’d prefer to learn from others who are more qualified in terms of experience or expertise to discuss it openly.

I'll bet that if a crowd of people disagreed with you, you wouldn't dare to speak out against them, even if you knew for certain that you were right and they were wrong. Right?
You got me. I can’t fight a crowd, I’m not superman. It’s not wise to debate ‘certain things’ with Thais, the Taiwan issue with Chinese, or religious practices with extremist Muslims.

[Rock]

Are you claiming that patterns don't exist? Or that everything is in equal percentages everywhere?

Stereotypes are not absolute, but they are not false. They exist for a reason and are based on truth. Only politically correct people deny that.

Are you challenging my claim that most black Americans are laid back, relaxed and down to earth? If so, why? All the ones I've met that I remember were like that. Why is that hard to believe?

Why do people get defensive at obvious patterns when they are applied to people?

Races are not all the same. There are differences of patterns and tendencies. Why is that so hard for many to understand? Weird.

Don't you realize that most people stereotype black Americans to be the exact opposite of what you believe? Most people believe that black American women are the most high-strung and lash-out prone women in the world. Yet, you think they are laid back?

Most people believe that black American men are the most irrationally violent and confrontational group in the US. They cite violent crime conviction rates as proof.

Now you come along with your few interactions and tell most Americans that their stereotype of blacks is wrong and yours is correct. While it would be nice if you were correct, you are not.

Winston, I'm beginning to question your understanding of American society in general. Even your description of whites is off-kilter. Sure there are uptight and snobby whites (usually upper or upper-middle class), but there are laid back and down to earth whites too (often middle or working class).

You grossly oversimplify groups of people without a clue of the complexities among them. If I go to Taiwan, and have a wonderful time with the people, I'd be a fool to wholesale declare how great they are without realizing that in some cities, areas, and social classes, they would slit my throat.

This is the nuance you fully miss Winston. I'm happy you have such a positive perception of black people, but you just don't have the breadth of personal knowledge to know any better. The facts are that the minority of educated and law-abiding black men tend to be laid back, and very few black women at all are laid back. Those are the facts.

Thanks for your perspective. I hope Winston responds to all your points.

BTW, if you ever come to Taiwan, I believe you will be safe no matter where you go or who you come across as long as you behave in a reasonable and respectful manner. And even if you don't, chances are good that you will get away with it. We used to have headhunters in the mountains (one of momopi's posts) but that practice was stopped many decades ago.

[momopi]

Foreigners do get killed in TW, but usually not the white collar type. There are >380,000 foreign workers in TW, most are from Asia. They get killed on the job all the time -- construction jobs are dangerous. There are even a few cases of Indonesian workers dying from malnutrition, because they won't eat pork and didn't want to spend their hard earned cash on food.

My old babysitter in TW moved (from Changhua) to the suburbs north of Taipei. She lives in a mostly retirement community where many homes had hired foreign help. One of her neighbors hired a young Indonesian maid and couldn't communicate with her well. She wouldn't eat most of the food prepped at the house because it either contained pork, or she didn't know what was in it. Her wages were low and she would only spend a little money every few days to buy bread from local convenience store. One day she just fell over and died at the hospital from prolonged malnutrition.




But this is a thread about Africa and Africans, so let's get back on topic.

When I first moved to Anaheim, CA, there was only 1 black family living on the block, and he owned a Rolls Royce. I used to play with his cats all the time. My father was a basketball jock back in school and he was a huge fan of the Lakers. He particularly liked Kareem Abdul-Jabbar for his role in Bruce Lee's Game of Death. My impression of black people, at age 12, was very favorable as I thought they were wealthy (or at least well to do) and great athletes. However, by high school it had changed dramatically as the Crips vs. Bloods culture ramped into high gear. In the 1980s they were heavily involved in the drug trade and was moving down to Lakewood from LA. Our local Hispanic gang (based in Hawaiian Gardens) fought back and it got bloody.

On the darker side of things, one of the old leaders of the HG gang became the founder of La Mafia Mexicana few decades ago. Due to mutual rivalry against black gangs, the Mexicans allied themselves with the Aryan Brotherhood (the enemy of my enemy is my friend). It had always been implied that the HG gang had a connection to the Mexican Mafia, but I wouldn't have touched it with a 20 foot pole back in HS.

[Rock]

Foreigners do get killed in TW, but usually not the white collar type. There are >380,000 foreign workers in TW, most are from Asia. They get killed on the job all the time -- construction jobs are dangerous. There are even a few cases of Indonesian workers dying from malnutrition, because they won't eat pork and didn't want to spend their hard earned cash on food.

I know what you mean about the dangers of traditional industry work in Taiwan. I used to manage a small factory at Chungli Industrial Park for foreign investors. One of our guys (a local) got 2 of his fingers seriously severed and was rushed to nearest hospital. I went to see him in emergency room right away and was shocked at the sight of other industrial accident victims. It was very ugly. A few months later, the chemical plant two doors down from us blew-up after work hours (it was totally leveled). Nobody was there as they only worked one shift but the noise level and vibrations from the shock waves (I was still at work) were incredible. I also visited a lot of larger factories for investors in the center and south of Taiwan, some which hired armies of foreign workers. Working conditions in the guts of some of the 'old school' industries were appalling - mind numbingly monotonous and very dangerous. In this sense, Taiwan was still very different from Western Europe or the States.

My father was a basketball jock back in school and he was a huge fan of the Lakers. He particularly liked Kareem Abdul-Jabbar for his role in Bruce Lee's Game of Death.

I just saw something on TV the other day where several people close to Bruce including Jabbar were interviewed about him. Of course they all had great respect but it sounds like he was very cocky (even bullly like) and pushed people around a lot, esp. after he went to HK. Someone even speculated that he may have pissed-off the wrong people in HKs film industry which turned karma against him and led to his early death.