Replacing PUA with P4P

[Kradmelder]

To give you an example, last woman I went out with, as in not a mistress, it didn't take long until she started showing me pics of the diamond she expects. Then she will sell her car so I can buy her a fortuner (an suv). Then to save costs she will move into my place and I can take her kids to school.

What was she going to provide in exchange for the long list of demands? She doesn't even cook. Just her kunt? Wasn't all that great in bed anyway; she didn't swallow women place too high a value on their kunt. It is not a rare commodity. Half the world has one.behaving that way it is women themselves that degrade women, not men. Women make it a marketable commodity. Men just pay according to supply and demand.

I dumped her quick. Since she was willing to make material things for herself a basis, with no talk of what value she would add, i should just have told her how about I just give you so much to help with your own place and just come visit once every 2 weeks? She can only say no and no loss since I wasn't about to pick up the whole tab just to be in a one sided relationshit. Like many men are prone to.

[Kradmelder]

Exactly, that's why cornfed's idea is flawed. Those insufferable "Like OMFG" m*fers are only good for quickies. The thought of paying them to hang out doesn't make sense. Like I said, shitty location, shitty p4p/service, with exceptions. As for the ones that are more palatable to interact with, they are unlikely to take money, or you may not need the scheme to begin with, but are most likely taken.

Not so flawed. Quickies and pump and dump are simply not good sex. First few times with anyone is not great. It gets better after a few times, so a regular is better. Also a regular needs no chatting up, so it is more time efficient. A financial arrangement keeps the games and bs away for a while.

But such concubine mistress relationshits have a shelf life. You can extend it by seeing them only once a month or so. Sooner or later they want more. They see it as more lucrative if they hook you. They start with, why are you single, you are such a decent man, what about I come on Friday for the weekend, why don't we go out with friends etc. Then the nagging and games start for bf behaviour. That is the time to remind them of the initial agreement but women don't respect agreements so the relationshit is at sell by date.

[Cornfed]

The reality is that some men still want to date Western skanks. Whether this is a good idea or not is irrelevant.

[Adama]

Adama, my point is Hebrewwood is portraying the ideal woman as loud, obnoxious, entitled, race mixing, brain dead, plastic, materialistic, money focused, God complex as if she is above everyone, flashing body, heavily made up. The exact opposite of what any man would want.

Why would a man pay to date such harlots? That kind of woman is strictly pump and dump if you can stomach her for more than 5 minutes.

The reality is that behaviour has infected women to varying degrees. The not infected ones have long since married and stayed married.

Given the situation, I don't want to marry or be in any relationshit with such women. Except of the mistress type with those of the less extreme above type. I would agree with Cornfed that the economic downturn has resulted in women needing money; those that don't have good jobs and rely on men. Those with harlot like natures would not be averse to taking money or gifts for a mistress arrangement. I favour this as I don't want a relationshit with a harlot.

I just would not want to pay to date them. You don't date whores. Just pomp them. Dating them puts them on a pedestal and feeds their entitlement. I would only ever date a decent woman, if I still wanted one. Such a woman would not accept cash. I don't know of any decent women I would date who are not married. I know plenty of entitlement Queens I would only bang. They are everywhere. But I have also seen that the decent ones you marry also play the whore's game, selling their body for the best deal they can get and then making sure you feather that nest to their satisfaction. And if they leave, they make sure they get well paid.

I simply no longer want to go there. I have had enough of relations with women. I prefer to pay a little to keep emotional interaction to a minimum and just satisfy physical needs. In that sense what Cornfed suggests has merit. As long as so many women peddle their bodies, why not make the payment conditional on no relationshit and leaving afterwards, instead of paying them to move in or marry. Then they are free of the man control they hate and can take the cash and behave like the Kardashians and I don't have to care about it nor expose my kids to it by seeing I accept this behaviour.

Frankly I don't have to give a shit whatever drama and bs they want to do as they can do it away from me. Around me they must be decent in behaviour and indecent in bed or I will get rid of them. The same as I behave towards them.

That just means the Jews were successful in turning people against God using money and anti male laws. Yes, all you have to do is find one who doesn't have a god complex. It will take time.

[Archibault]

I agree. Honestly PUA is inconstant. If you want to spend a lot of time running around and "trying" to get laid do PUA. If you want to get laid go for p4p.

[jamesbond]

I agree. Honestly PUA is inconstant. If you want to spend a lot of time running around and "trying" to get laid do PUA. If you want to get laid go for p4p.

I read a blog post a few years ago from an actual PUA and even he said, he needs to cold approach 40 women to have sex with just one woman! WTF? Those are terrible odds, just go to a prostitute and you are guaranteed to get laid.

I paid just 70 Euros (which was $ 72 American dollars) at a brothel in Germany a few months ago and there were 50 girls working there at that time and I choose a incredibly hot 23 year old Italian girl. Why any man would cold approach 40 girls just to have sex with one girl is ridiculous.

[Outcast9428]

I agree. Honestly PUA is inconstant. If you want to spend a lot of time running around and "trying" to get laid do PUA. If you want to get laid go for p4p.

I read a blog post a few years ago from an actual PUA and even he said, he needs to cold approach 40 women to have sex with just one woman! WTF? Those are terrible odds, just go to a prostitute and you are guaranteed to get laid.

I paid just 70 Euros (which was $ 72 American dollars) at a brothel in Germany a few months ago and there were 50 girls working there at that time and I choose a incredibly hot 23 year old Italian girl. Why any man would cold approach 40 girls just to have sex with one girl is ridiculous.

Not to mention, men cold approaching women hurts all of us. The PUA artist didn't manage to get sex with those other 39 women he approached but he did manage to artificially inflate their egos and make it harder for every other guy out there who will be interested in her one day.

There's also the fact that some of these girls might have had boyfriends and husbands and men cold approaching women will result in more cases of adultery.

I keep telling men, if you want shit to change then stop bathing the modern, Western woman in the attention she wants. Be very selective about the girls you go for. Stop running around trying to pickup every pretty thing that walks by on the street. Do things the right way, find a girl through your friends or family. If you are sexually frustrated go to a prostitute.

[Cornfed]

"Cold approaching" random girls is retarded anyway.

It is also extremely obnoxious, like panhandling for anything, and guarantees that any population experiencing it will become cynical, hostile and callous over time. The people doing it or advocating it are vermin. They are making all of our lives worse.

[jamesbond]

"Cold approaching" random girls is retarded anyway.

It is also extremely obnoxious, like panhandling for anything, and guarantees that any population experiencing it will become cynical, hostile and callous over time. The people doing it or advocating it are vermin. They are making all of our lives worse.

That explains why women in western countries are so hostile to men, these women are getting hit on by PUA guys all the time and they are sick of it. It's like every time you leave your house, pandhandlers come up to you asking you for money. It gets old after a while.

[Outcast9428]

"Cold approaching" random girls is retarded anyway.

It is also extremely obnoxious, like panhandling for anything, and guarantees that any population experiencing it will become cynical, hostile and callous over time. The people doing it or advocating it are vermin. They are making all of our lives worse.

That explains why women in western countries are so hostile to men, these women are getting hit on by PUA guys all the time and they are sick of it. It's like every time you leave your house, pandhandlers come up to you asking you for money. It gets old after a while.

Exactly, that's why women have ice shields. If homeless dudes came up to you every day asking for money eventually you'd lose your patience and just say "No! f**k off!"

Not to mention, I feel like cold approaching women has a begging feel to it. Its like saying "will you please sleep with me if I prove to be charming and witty enough?"

I keep telling people... You have to be a very specific kind of guy for that type of shit to work. Even PUA type dudes who know what they're doing still get rejected dozens of times before anything works. But average guys who don't know what they're doing have to get rejected hundreds of times before they realize how dumb it is to try approaching random women.

[WilliamSmith]

@jamesbond
Well if the only reason you want the women in your life is just so you can stick it in them for a lay, and you don't care about potential human rights issues with all these females lined up as sexual commodities in some brothel, this is perfectly rational I guess. But some of us actually have a bit more romantic sentiments and it's not only the pure sex alone that we're after.

I read a blog post a few years ago from an actual PUA and even he said, he needs to cold approach 40 women to have sex with just one woman! WTF? Those are terrible odds, just go to a prostitute and you are guaranteed to get laid.

I paid just 70 Euros (which was $ 72 American dollars) at a brothel in Germany a few months ago and there were 50 girls working there at that time and I choose a incredibly hot 23 year old Italian girl. Why any man would cold approach 40 girls just to have sex with one girl is ridiculous.

But either way: No one is being forced to do a pure cold approach with no advanced indication of interest from the women as the only other alternative to squandering funds on prostitution.
Not to mention other guys score a lot by learning a decent approach that involves minimal/no cold approach, such as social circle approaches, approaching girls in some kind of nightlife environment, and online dating, last of which I've never tried but where all the openers are sent out via some kind of messaging.

My point: Endlessly beating a dead horse about how you guys don't want to cold approach, and therefore concluding that seduction is "a scam," is silly, when that's only one approach that could be used.

But like I was saying elsewhere, speaking as a man of Scottish heritage, I'm practically in physical pain thinking about the ludicrous amount of money some of you guys are spending just for a couple of lays. At least jamesbond (really not the most aptly chosen username ever since the real James Bond wouldn't do this) got to screw the ones he wasted ungodly sums of $$ on multiple times, but that other guy was saying all he got was a lousy handjob for $20!! Utterly outrageous masochistic money-spending!

[WilliamSmith]

LOL, this just proves that if the term "PUA" is ever used, it causes almost across-the-board irrational reactions to the term even by relative intelligent people, since they box it into some specific definition they don't like, even though the myriad voices all saying PUA is a "scam" at the same time (as in this thread) aren't even defining it the same way :

"Cold approaching" random girls is retarded anyway. The way to "get girls" is to socialize, have some friends in a place and hang out with people where both genders are present. You'll meet girls in a more "organic" setting, joke around a little bit, charm her, maybe have some drinks and... bring her home. None of this is rocket science. If you're just a corny dude walking up randomly to complete strangers with cheesy pick-up lines like a moron, of course you're going to get shot down like the buffoon you are.

No sane man would ever listen to, much less PAY MONEY for the advice of PUA, aka, Pick Up Autists. It's a complete scam and everyone with two brain cells to rub together know this lol.

There's truth in parts of that as a potentially sound approach, though you're painting with too broad a brush in implying only the approach you like best is effective or sound, but @MarcosZeitola do you realize that what you're describing is what most people would consider being a PUA in a night life and social environment (as opposed to day time with or without "cold approaches")?

As for prostitution, it's bullshit too. Why spend over a hundred bucks or more for just one lay when you could get sex for free for just the price of a few drinks? All you have to do is have half-decent social skills and half-decent looks, a bit of charisma, and somewhat of a social circle.

I agree about my disliking prostitution too, and strongly agree on how you can get lays only for the price of a few drinks (which doesn't rule out escalating into an actual relationship in theory, regardless of what squawks tradpill types have about the alleged evils of premartial sex), but I only partly agree on the rest:

In the first place, forget about half-decent looks (unless you just meant some presentation of your appearance, as opposed to innate perceived genetic attractiveness), I have seen tons of veteran womanizers who have none, whether it's goblinoid types like that Neil Strauss who was so ugly and so short he had to wear "elevation" shoes to add 1.5-2 inches to his height but still ended up learning how to do it and getting laid "like a rock star" as the saying goes, or the more biker type cavemen who look like fantasy-RPG ogres who eat raw meat and drink motor oil but have their own knack for attracting and laying the women despite this.

Social skills and charisma are all completely learnable. So if they don't get the reactions the like from people at their current level, that'd be a better area to work on in a less embarrassing context than randomly trying cold approaches while they're still inexperienced or lacking confidence, no argument there.

But a social circle is one approach many specialize in, but not a requirement: Would James Bond (the real one, not our hard-working moderator friend who pays a bazillion euros for sex at brothels or with escorts) need a social circle to lay the women? No.

I'm not totally closed off to the idea of scoring women through a social circle in theory, but up to now (and still at this point in life) it would be a completely counterproductive hindrance getting in the way and make it harder and more of a nuisance, not remotely an advantage.
I like my friends (3 of them are like brothers to me) and am glad to go hang out with them, but if getting women was the objective in going out, they'd frankly be completely in my way and only making it harder for me to get the women even if I was in a similar night life environment to what you seem to be describing here.

The simple point: Scoring through a social circle is only one theoretically viable way to get women, not a requirement or even an advantage, it just depends on the man + the social circle in question in each case.

When I learned to do this with some conscious thought I had recently moved to a new city in my early 20s, and I wanted to get good with women without having my friends around because there's always lots of beer and clouds of pot-smoke in the air + we always start breaking each other's balls (none of which I see facilitating easier lays with or without relationship potential), and I didn't want to waste time trying to get involved in some other social circle I had no interest in when what I really wanted was to get women, not to socialize or network.

(Being out with female friends is potentially another story, though. I have not been out with them specifically for much beside having some drinks or clothes shopping, never trying to score with other women before while with them, but that strikes me as something potentially more obviously advantageous that would actually get other women interested in you... But a lot of guys who need to learn how to get women don't have any female friends starting out, so it's a moot point for them until they level up a bit in more universally applicable areas that will help...)

Money, of course, helps, but you will never feel any sense of achievement or joy if all you do is "insert coins" like some girl is just a vending machine for sex... paying for her to let you touch her while she lets better men get her for free.

I just used the vending machine analogy when having a friendly argument with someone about this subject yesterday, LOL.

It was not on this forum, but I have also seen some threads posted here saying "Western" women are supposedly horrible for not putting out after 3-4 dinner dates, but the guys in the article sounded like they acted like a bunch of dicks and were messing with their phones during the date, so they made the women nervous and uncomfortable even though the men did have money.
Sounded like they paid to much $$$ on dinner dates when they probably should've set up a shorter date spending at most the cost of a few drinks, and tried to be more warmly engaging (as well as escalating things by getting as hands-on as they could get away with while still being a gentleman), instead of being a bunch of duds that made the chicks nervous or uncomfortable, but at an excessively expensive dinner date, and then capped it off by getting mad that she still wouldn't put out yet by the end of date #3 or #4 or whatever.

It's another example of why I think they should treat it as a learnable skill and try to enjoy it with a sense of humor about awkwardness during the learning process, rather than coming up with cerebral counterproductive theories about flashing money and 'status' around to supposedly "show value" and imagine that's why the women will want to have sex, and then blame the women when the SMV-based "insert coins" theory doesn't result in a lay....

[Outcast9428]

@jamesbond
Well if the only reason you want the women in your life is just so you can stick it in them for a lay, and you don't care about potential human rights issues with all these females lined up as sexual commodities in some brothel, this is perfectly rational I guess. But some of us actually have a bit more romantic sentiments and it's not only the pure sex alone that we're after.

I read a blog post a few years ago from an actual PUA and even he said, he needs to cold approach 40 women to have sex with just one woman! WTF? Those are terrible odds, just go to a prostitute and you are guaranteed to get laid.

I paid just 70 Euros (which was $ 72 American dollars) at a brothel in Germany a few months ago and there were 50 girls working there at that time and I choose a incredibly hot 23 year old Italian girl. Why any man would cold approach 40 girls just to have sex with one girl is ridiculous.

But either way: No one is being forced to do a pure cold approach with no advanced indication of interest from the women as the only other alternative to squandering funds on prostitution.
Not to mention other guys score a lot by learning a decent approach that involves minimal/no cold approach, such as social circle approaches, approaching girls in some kind of nightlife environment, and online dating, last of which I've never tried but where all the openers are sent out via some kind of messaging.

My point: Endlessly beating a dead horse about how you guys don't want to cold approach, and therefore concluding that seduction is "a scam," is silly, when that's only one approach that could be used.

But like I was saying elsewhere, speaking as a man of Scottish heritage, I'm practically in physical pain thinking about the ludicrous amount of money some of you guys are spending just for a couple of lays. At least jamesbond (really not the most aptly chosen username ever since the real James Bond wouldn't do this) got to screw the ones he wasted ungodly sums of $$ on multiple times, but that other guy was saying all he got was a lousy handjob for $20!! Utterly outrageous masochistic money-spending!

You act like 70 bucks is such an outrageous amount of money. 70 dollars is nothing. That’s like the cost of a pair of jeans. You really struggle to comprehend why someone would pay the cost of jeans for sex?

$20 I’ve given that amount to a homeless dude once. Practically anything is worth $20.

How cheap do you want it to be? I mean if it’s any cheaper then that you’re practically paying the girl an office labor type salary.

[WilliamSmith]

@Outcast9428 I've already said a bunch of times that I think that prostitution should be outlawed because it's unhealthy for society to have young women (commonly even teens) penned up in brothels like humanoid livestock just so a bunch of betas can use them as an object to get off inside of, so the costs isn't the main thing.

You act like 70 bucks is such an outrageous amount of money. 70 dollars is nothing. That’s like the cost of a pair of jeans. You really struggle to comprehend why someone would pay the cost of jeans for sex?

$20 I’ve given that amount to a homeless dude once. Practically anything is worth $20.

How cheap do you want it to be? I mean if it’s any cheaper then that you’re practically paying the girl an office labor type salary.

However, that other fellow (not that I was trying to pick on him) said he was paying 150 f-ing euros per hour. OUCH! I thought another guy said $200 for a lousy handjob, he just corrected me that it was $100-150 for a massage that included a handjob, but if you're Scottish it's still too much, but that's not the important point:
$100+ is financial mascochism (but to each their own if you're not as into savings as me, LOL), $70 is too little for any woman to have to accept for the degradation of some asshole she wouldn't even choose otherwise to stick his dick in her, whereas $20 is shockingly too little.
@!#$ prostitution! Stop making excuses for it while laughably claiming that silly harmless guys like me or Jack Nicholson who are nice to women but still like getting laid are "degenerates" bringing about the collapse of society. That's nonsense: Guys were doing this all the time in America in the 1920s, 30s, wartime got things a bit iffy, but they were still doing it in the 1950s too even if not promoted as the mainstream norm. So the marxist cultural revolution that changed things in the 1960s-70s was not the start of it. It is true that family structures were vastly healthier in many of those times, but the undoing of the family structure was not caused by heterosexuals having sex out of wedlock, which they have always been doing.

Back to prostitution though:

In South East Asia, there are literally scores of way, way too young village girls penned up in all those brothels. Any creepo who walks in their can pay them sometimes as low as $10, maybe $20. (Also, I don't like "sexpats" or "dirty farang" who exploit that situation and those young girls, but that sex industry is a huge problem that already exists in SEA even where there are no whites or other foreigners, so foreigners aren't the actual cause of it.)

Not all of the girls stuck in that life are slaves (but some of them ARE slaves, the victims of human trafficking rings!), but young teen girls or even in their early 20's who don't know what the hell they're doing because they're just too young, inexperienced, clueless and vulnerable should not be in the sex industry like this, just so betas or hornyboys or dirty old men can get laid.

That's why I approve of "knowhow" (whether it is called "PUA" and arousing everyone including PUAs to say it's a "scam," or "seduction," or "knowhow," "woman skills," "scoring with women," etc), so guys can learn how to actually get women to like them, get laid, and be happy. Assuming they are in the group of those of us who actually likes having real women and feminine energy as part of our lives.
To the guys who just want to get laid and only want sex with no actual interest in the women's personalities or romance, hey, I get it, but our daughters and sisters shouldn't be commoditized in brothels to serve as their sexual outlet regardless of pricing. Better to ramp up the activity on connecting these types with AI powered sex robots, and in the meantime those dolls I just posted a couple pics of to show how impressively good looking they are.

[Outcast9428]

I think part of what separates my mentality from most men is that I won’t be happy unless I have a really jaw droppingly beautiful wife. My best friend tells me my standards are way too high but I honestly only want 8s or 9s as far as a wife goes.

My mom complained about my ex girlfriend’s spending habits but honestly all I wanted to do was just make enough money to finance it because so much of what she was spending money on would make her prettier, make her smell good and have good hair. Why the f**k wouldn’t I want to spend on that?

It kind of pisses me off sometimes that I’m expected to be withholding with my money when it comes to girls because I feel like men spending money on women is just the natural order of male/female relationships.