Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

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mattyman
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Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by mattyman »

Browsing through various manosphere forums I often notice that there's this message that anything said about what women want in a guy or about female nature that isn't all doom and gloom is a load of lies to make you fee better. That all women are hypergamous bitches who sell their cunt to the highest bidder (in macholinity, go-getter, trample on other people to get you r way) & that . Great news for those of us who don't fit x, y, z bill isn't it? So much for 'be yourself' for those of you who don't fit the stereotypical 'alpha' bill :-(.

Common 'bad news' we here regarding dating prospects;
  • Every attractive woman is in high demand
  • Every attractive woman has a vast harem of choices (thus if you don't fit x, y, z bill, tough shit)
What want to cover here is the idea that 'women have it easier' they 'just need to sit back and select the highest bidder' (by metrics of looks, macho-linity, chest-thumping, success and other silly shallow things).

The belief goes something like this; a) it's a mans's job to do the approaching, asking out etc. b) therefore all the woman has to do is pick the 'best applicant c) that women want x, y, z in a guy (this assumes that all women have the same tastes). If it were really as bleak as the manosphere made out, then why do we have this shear diversity of personality types that we enjoy today? Could you imagine living in a world where there was ONLY stereotypical 'alpha'-males?

There's offshoot beliefs like 'women get approached and hit on all the time'. It's this that I think needs to be looked-at & examined more closely.

There seems to be this idea floating around that if you're not x, y, z, it's all bleak and bad news, there's no hope, no-one will ever be attracted to you, there's always a 'bigger, better deal' right? How depressing & discouraging.

Disclaimer
This is not denying that *some* women are like that and this dynamic does apply to some and that there are examples.

Limiting beliefs, gospel truths, or a mixture of both? Lets think different
On the net you can only really find extremes of opinion. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle. I want to inject something less black-&-white

Some more helpful thoughts (what I'd rather focus on)
What if;
  • A woman is really shy, her shyness can also get in the way of interactions going anywhere and could unintentionally give the impression that she's aloof
  • Even if a woman gets approached a lot it doesn't necessarily mean it's by the types of guy they want, e.g. PUA types, drunk macho douchebags (contrary to popular belief, not all women and not all women who look a certain way want that type of guy), people have TASTES
  • A woman's CIRCUMSTANCES will have a huge influence of how much opportunity she has to meet and be approached by guys, the type of social circle, how she hangs out, where she works
  • There are women who genuinely want to be approached by good guys who want to get to know here, but here's a secret the manosphere won't tell you; sensitive guys are simply less likely to approach women in the first place, that's it!
  • There are many women out there who are not interested in sleeping with just anybody or 'the highest bidder' for the sake of having sex or one-night stands
  • Being approached a lot isn't always a good thing and doesn't always give an 'ego trip'; in some cases, especially if the approaching is aggressive or is an obvious 'hit-on' it can make women MORE RELUCTANT to be approached
  • Even if a woman does get a lot of attention from male strangers, it doesn't necessarily mean she's not lonely or has an amazing social life
  • Even if a woman appears to have lots of 'friends' and male company, it doesn't always mean she's not lonely; a common problem many women face (especially attractive ones) is men who they thought were her friends, who drop all contact when they discover she doesn't want to get romantically-involved (right away) with them
  • Even if a woman does get sex, it doesn't always mean that she's any less lonely (evidence; there was a girl I was messaging on one of the social anxiety forums who's had sex but had never had a boyfriend, but felt very lonely and isolated)
I hope that's added a bit of light & a new perspective that's a bit more flexible & not so bleak, doom-&-gloom. Wouldn't it be lovely to believe that there are plenty of attractive women out there to whom the above is true? I know the negativity brigade are going to come in and say I'm talking a loud of rubbish.

If you are a single guy and feel discouraged by a lot of the rhetoric that you might hear from PUA and other manosphere communities, bear the above in mind. My aim with this thread is to a) shake-up a lot of the rigid thinking and b) give hope to guys who feel discouraged and arm them with knowledge and food for thought.
HappyGuy

Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by HappyGuy »

Women will withhold sex from you if you sound too smart while they will never withhold it for sounding too stupid maybe even clinically retarded. Having any intelligence or being a good person will count against you in this era, not with the best women but with most women.
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flowerthief00
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Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by flowerthief00 »

Though I usually try to avoid making an argument with personal anecdote, a dating experience I had this year is a perfect example of the assertion made by the OP. I cold-approached a woman who had been cold-approached a lot and she chose me. Not the players. Not the rich men. Not the creeps. Not the simps who tried to win her over with displays of gratuitous spending.

As woman go she turned out to be a pretty damn good one. Cooking all the time, cleaning all the time, happy to pay for her own expenses, enjoyed doing even the geeky activities I like to do, affectionate as hell, and allowed me a surprising degree of freedom. I came along at just the right moment when she had more free time than before and was lonelier than before. So I can't exactly disagree with the OP when a recent experience confirmed it all.

Nevertheless, I consider this experience to have been the exception that proves the rule. How many women did I have to approach before I discovered this one? I couldn't count 'em all.

She later told me about the men who had chased and were still chasing her even while she was with me. The guy who offered her free rides in an airplane. The guy who handed her a big sum of money telling her to use it on personal shopping for herself. It is unfortunately the case that simping is an epidemic. Any attractive women has hordes of men after her, and many of those men seem to think that the way to a woman's heart is by throwing money at it like horseshoes hoping the next toss will be the one that sticks. She asked me, "Should I feel bad for having accepted free stuff from this guy when I was never interested in him?" I told her hell no. I would have done the same in her position. Who turns down free stuff? Not me.

I've said it many times. Women are not the problem. Men are the problem. Until we learn to demand equal investment, women will continue to treat us like kleenix--used once and thrown away.
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Yohan
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Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by Yohan »

mattyman wrote:
November 22nd, 2019, 3:05 pm
Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?
I would say YES, it is. The dating scene in Western countries is totally broken.
It's not only about USA - same in Europe. UK is known to be especially difficult for men.

Disclaimer
This is not denying that *some* women are like that .....
I would replace the word *some* with 'many'.

Many Western women use highly questionable criteria when choosing their men.
For example:
Criminals have better chances than ordinary full-time working men.
Braggarts, conmen also never have a problem to keep a woman next to them.

For ordinary men there is not much what they can do about.... I tried it out for years, I moved away, looking for a foreign woman - now living in Japan/Thailand since more than 40 years. Never came back.

I would say, do not date any Western woman, it is time-waste, money waste and also legally seen risky.
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Yohan
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Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by Yohan »

flowerthief00 wrote:
November 23rd, 2019, 1:40 pm
I've said it many times. Women are not the problem. Men are the problem. Until we learn to demand equal investment, women will continue to treat us like kleenix--used once and thrown away.
Not only women, but the entire state is treating men and boys as 2nd class citizens.

How can men 'demand' anything without facing immediately hateful feminist rhetoric in return, calling them women-haters and similar swear words, even risking their jobs etc.?

Men have really a very limited choice what to do. One way to go is to move away, to other countries and to live among those locals as a foreigner, but not every man can do that.

Another solution is to become strictly MGTOW. Nobody can force you to socialize with women, if you don't want to do that.

What else?
MrMan
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Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by MrMan »

There is a lot of variety in western society. Not all women are the same. We have different tastes. They have different tastes. There are outgoing women, and shy women. There are pretty girls who interact with the public and get hit on a lot. There are pretty shy girls who work in cubicles and do not get asked out all the time.

I spent much of my life overseas, kind of bouncing back and forth every so often for some many years. My wife is from Indonesia. I'm Gen X, so I don't have my thumb on the pulse of the dating scene. But I do know that there are women in varied situations. They aren't all radical feminists who only go for millionaire thugs on motorcycles who have a criminal record.

There are problems with the US legal system and there are feminists. But that doesn't mean the only option is to go abroad. But that is one valid option.

There are men on the forum who feel like they do not appeal to local women in their own country (US, Canada, UK, etc.) But for each of these men, there is also a woman out there in their own country who does not appeal to men either.
HappyGuy

Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by HappyGuy »

MrMan wrote:
November 24th, 2019, 6:31 pm
There are pretty shy girls who work in cubicles and do not get asked out all the time.
With the rise of online dating now those girls get messaged by every group of men as much as the good looking outgoing girls. That ugly introverted girl who works at your local library who you assume is a virgin and "wife material"? She's slept with 20-500 guys in the last 5 years, and she rejected 1000s more on Tinder because they weren't good looking enough for her liking. And now she's engaged to a desperate rich guy.
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Jonnyblond
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Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by Jonnyblond »

I believe men are more of the problem then women over here at least in North America. There is just to many simps out there. When I went to the former Soviet Union. It’s like another dimension or something out of the 80s and is slowly catching up to the rest of the world. But I found that the men over there aren’t even close to being star struck over women like western men are. If a hot woman walks by men over here that is actually one of the rare few beautiful girls that takes care of herself...she’s bombarded by attention and knows she’s being checked out. When I went to the supposed sexiest beach in the world in Kiev. I couldn’t believe not only how incredibly hot and in shape the majority of women were but the craziest part was that the men just couldn’t care less. It reminded me of how women can say..I’m going out to dance with my girl pals tonite but actually mean it. Sure the simps will shower them with attention but the women actually do just go out to dance with their friends. Like I was saying..when I was on the beach just observing...there were tons of guys just sitting around smoking, drinking beers and enjoying the company of their friends. They were there just to hang with their friends. Lots of girls would prance on by and no guys even batted an eye. I think that’s why women over there say “men are just to spoiled over here”. That’s why I went. But they haven’t evolved with the times because pick up game is a waste of time over there..approaching women without knowing them doesn’t work. To them what if your a psycho or mad man.

Women are pretty bad over here and it sucks that even our below average girls think they are hot because of social media and simps. I’m just glad I don’t have to be in the singles world anymore to have to wade through all that garbage out there.
HappyGuy

Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by HappyGuy »

Jonnyblond wrote:
November 25th, 2019, 5:47 am
But I found that the men over there aren’t even close to being star struck over women like western men are.

I couldn’t believe not only how incredibly hot and in shape the majority of women were but the craziest part was that the men just couldn’t care less.
That's the difference European men aren't so beaten down and desperate. American men are so sex frustrated they'll turn and stare at the ass of any half-decent woman that walks past them.
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Yohan
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Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by Yohan »

MrMan wrote:
November 24th, 2019, 6:31 pm
.....There are pretty shy girls who work in cubicles and do not get asked out all the time.

..... They aren't all radical feminists who only go for millionaire thugs on motorcycles who have a criminal record.

..... for each of these men, there is also a woman out there in their own country who does not appeal to men either.
Radical feminists are usually lesbians, who hate all men. They want to destroy men.

This thread is more about ordinary young spoiled Western women, who make wrong decisions when choosing their men because they look only for short-time sex and fun and never consider any long term relationship. Just one man after the other, and many young women have already sexual experiences with more than 100 men when they are 25 to 30 years.

You sound like a soft-hearted man who is looking for an excuse about everything if criticism is about the life-style of Western women. Somehow ignorant about reality, a bit of a dreamer. However you said your wife is from Indonesia and not from USA, why is that so despite you claim there is always a woman out there for men in their own country?

Yes, maybe there is a woman out there but surely not younger than 40 or 50, divorced with children and still demanding....divorce is a lucrative business for these women past prime time and for their lawyers too of course.

Let me say, ANY approach towards a Western woman is risky, you don't know who is who. If they are alone and available, let them alone.
The legal aspect cannot be ignored - why should a man even willing to try.....
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Yohan
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Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by Yohan »

Good example how women choose their men

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -jail.html
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north- ... p-17311127
Female prison guard, 27, 'had four-month fling with inmate at Britain's biggest men's jail
Prosecutor Robert Blakemore said the prisoner Khuram Razaq, 29, would appear on a video link before magistrates at Wrexham on Wednesday.
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Yohan
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Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by Yohan »

Another example of a British woman, who considers herself as 'working class' and says she loves her fiance....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/arti ... -ring.html
A British woman was left disappointed with the size of her £5k engagement ring

Bride-to-be admits she's disappointed with her £5,000 diamond engagement ring because it's 'so SMALL' - but insists she's NOT 'fickle or shallow'.
'I’m not a shallow or fickle person I promise, I’m working class...

she was immediately upset with the 0.8 carat solitaire diamond and platinum ring...
MrMan
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Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by MrMan »

HappyGuy wrote:
November 24th, 2019, 8:53 pm
MrMan wrote:
November 24th, 2019, 6:31 pm
There are pretty shy girls who work in cubicles and do not get asked out all the time.
With the rise of online dating now those girls get messaged by every group of men as much as the good looking outgoing girls. That ugly introverted girl who works at your local library who you assume is a virgin and "wife material"? She's slept with 20-500 guys in the last 5 years, and she rejected 1000s more on Tinder because they weren't good looking enough for her liking. And now she's engaged to a desperate rich guy.
Being a librarian doesn't make a woman a virgin. When Sarah Palin was running for VP, I heard comedians saying she looked like a porn star playing a librarian. Apparently she looked like librarians in the movie. There are men who go for librarians with glasses. Librarians also interact with the public.

Your talking about women as if they are all the same. There are women who are virgins at marriage. It's a small percentage. It has a lot to do with values in some cases.
MrMan
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Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by MrMan »

Yohan wrote:
November 25th, 2019, 10:07 am
Another example of a British woman, who considers herself as 'working class' and says she loves her fiance....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/arti ... -ring.html
A British woman was left disappointed with the size of her £5k engagement ring

Bride-to-be admits she's disappointed with her £5,000 diamond engagement ring because it's 'so SMALL' - but insists she's NOT 'fickle or shallow'.
'I’m not a shallow or fickle person I promise, I’m working class...

she was immediately upset with the 0.8 carat solitaire diamond and platinum ring...
They make web pages out of this sort of thing because she displays a bad attitude as recognized by many in society. Daily mail is a British web page, right?

What an unappealing website, slow, with irritating popups. I think I'll pass on looking at the other links.
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Yohan
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Re: Is it really as bleak and negative as is made out?

Post by Yohan »

MrMan wrote:
November 25th, 2019, 5:44 pm
They make web pages out of this sort of thing because she displays a bad attitude as recognized by many in society. Daily mail is a British web page, right?

What an unappealing website, slow, with irritating popups. I think I'll pass on looking at the other links.
Maybe you check your browser or update your computer or change your internet provider... I have no problems to view DailyMail pages, very fast download with my 1Gb optical fiber line in Japan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail
Daily Mail is a British daily middle-market newspaper published in London in a tabloid format. Founded in 1896, it is the United Kingdom's third-highest-circulation daily newspaper, after Metro and The Sun.
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