Why we don't have as much Free Will as people say - Simple logical reasons

[Winston]

@publicduende

Again I never said we have zero free will. Only atheists say that. I said we don't have 100 percent free will like Christians and New Agers claim. I gave 12 reasons why above. Why do you say mental illness and addictions don't negate free will? What do you mean? Of course they impair free will. Everyone knows that. How is that not true? Even psychologists admit that mental disorders impair and obstruct free will. That's a no brainer.

Why do you think serial killers are lying when they say that some dark force took over them and they could not control it? No they were not all on trial when they said that. They were talking to an interviewer or a psychologist. In some cases they were already on death row or in prison for life. So I don't understand what you mean. They could not have been pleading the insanity defense or trying to get a lower punishment if they were on death row or in prison for life. What they said made sense too. Some people just have evil innate in their blood it seems. Why can't you admit that? Why would anyone choose to be a serial killer out of free will? Of course, some mass murders are staged or hoaxed too, but we are assuming they are real.

Btw our friend @Lucas88 showed me a page in a book he is reading about Tibetan Buddhism that said that we only have 30 percent free will, not 100 percent. That's a reasonable compromise. Not on one extreme or another. Are you claiming that we have 100 percent free will? If not, then what percent? So reason #13 should be:

13) Tibetan Buddhism says we only have 30 percent free will, not 100 percent. That is more realistic than 100 percent or 0 percent. Obviously, Tibetan Buddhism is a lot wiser than American culture or New Age teachings, which are mostly a fad and commercial in nature. So there's a good chance that it is correct. This lends credence to my claim that we don't have as much free will as New Agers and Christians claim, which they do in order to guilt trip us and manipulate us into blaming ourselves. You gotta wonder, who benefits from all this victim blaming?

Here's a video about what the Buddha said about free will. Like me, he says it's only partial, not all or nothing. What do you think PD?

[publicduende]

@publicduende

Again I never said we have zero free will. Only atheists say that. I said we don't have 100 percent free will like Christians and New Agers claim. I gave 12 reasons why above. Why do you say mental illness and addictions don't negate free will? What do you mean? Of course they impair free will. Everyone knows that. How is that not true? Even psychologists admit that mental disorders impair and obstruct free will. That's a no brainer.

Why do you think serial killers are lying when they say that some dark force took over them and they could not control it? No they were not all on trial when they said that. They were talking to an interviewer or a psychologist. In some cases they were already on death row or in prison for life. So I don't understand what you mean. They could not have been pleading the insanity defense or trying to get a lower punishment if they were on death row or in prison for life. What they said made sense too. Some people just have evil innate in their blood it seems. Why can't you admit that? Why would anyone choose to be a serial killer out of free will? Of course, some mass murders are staged or hoaxed too, but we are assuming they are real.

Btw our friend @Lucas88 showed me a page in a book he is reading about Tibetan Buddhism that said that we only have 30 percent free will, not 100 percent. That's a reasonable compromise. Not on one extreme or another. Are you claiming that we have 100 percent free will? If not, then what percent? So reason #13 should be:

13) Tibetan Buddhism says we only have 30 percent free will, not 100 percent. That is more realistic than 100 percent or 0 percent. Obviously, Tibetan Buddhism is a lot wiser than American culture or New Age teachings, which are mostly a fad and commercial in nature. So there's a good chance that it is correct. This lends credence to my claim that we don't have as much free will as New Agers and Christians claim, which they do in order to guilt trip us and manipulate us into blaming ourselves. You gotta wonder, who benefits from all this victim blaming?

Here's a video about what the Buddha said about free will. Like me, he says it's only partial, not all or nothing. What do you think PD?

@Winston

The "measurement" of free will sounds a bit of a moot argument. What would the difference be, between 30% and 100% free will? Say you're driving a car that has all the usual freedom to move thanks to its mechanics (engine, wheels, steering, etc.). If you're trying to park inside a double garage full of stuff, the range of movements you could do with your car would be more limited than, say, if you were to park in a mall parking lot, where you have plenty of space, dedicated lanes etc. You obviously wouldn't blame the car for having less mobility, only the surroundings, the environment.

Esoterically, free will is typical of imperfect beings, limited minds and souls. If our minds and souls were more advanced, they would be naturally drawn to the Good, to God, and naturally have less free will. I would personally define free will as the potential to make a free choice, before all of the physical, chemicals and spiritual constraints typical of incarnate beings.

[my life is trash]

“Free will” is a concept which is used to blame people for their own failures and suffering, when in reality those who fail were born to fail and those who succeed were born to succeed, nobody has any control of the trajectory of their life as that is determined by destiny.

[publicduende]

“Free will” is a concept which is used to blame people for their own failures and suffering, when in reality those who fail were born to fail and those who succeed were born to succeed, nobody has any control of the trajectory of their life as that is determined by destiny.

That's BS. Nobody is "born to fail". Some of us are born, or develop, personalities that are less conducive to attaining what is defined as "success" in our modern society. Do you know how many extremely successful men, including many celebrities whose life is under public scrutiny, are actually hated by their own children? Those men might be wealthy and successful by many standards, yet they are complete failures as fathers, perhaps as husbands or sons.

A more sane society looks at success in several other places: how harmonious someone's relations are with their community, how kind and helpful they are, even how much their work contributes to society. By many standards who used to be the rule until not so long ago, teachers used to be as respected as doctors and engineers, despite making a fraction of the latter. People had their priorities right and knew, or at least felt, that some people can be instrumental to the well being of a community even if they will never be wealthy, or famous.

[my life is trash]

“Free will” is a concept which is used to blame people for their own failures and suffering, when in reality those who fail were born to fail and those who succeed were born to succeed, nobody has any control of the trajectory of their life as that is determined by destiny.

That's BS. Nobody is "born to fail". Some of us are born, or develop, personalities that are less conducive to attaining what is defined as "success" in our modern society. Do you know how many extremely successful men, including many celebrities whose life is under public scrutiny, are actually hated by their own children? Those men might be wealthy and successful by many standards, yet they are complete failures as fathers, perhaps as husbands or sons.

A more sane society looks at success in several other places: how harmonious someone's relations are with their community, how kind and helpful trhey are, even how much their work contributes to society. By many standards who used to be the rule until not so long ago, teachers used to be as respected as doctors and engineers, despite making a fraction of the latter. People had their priorities right and knew, or at least felt, that some people can be instrumental to the well being of a community even if they will never be wealthy, or famous.

Look at the world around you. Did you ever have any choice in anything that you were born into? Your genetics, your location or background, your own family even?

Where is the free will when these basic components dictate everything that you will eventually become?

[Winston]

Some interesting episodes from Closer to Truth regarding free will and moral responsibility. The host talks to experts from both sides. I agree with the expert who said that free will is not either/or but a CONTINUUM. The law likes to put every defendant in either the guilty or innocent category though, so it likes a dichotomy, not a continuum, but reality is nuanced and not what we would like. You should see this @publicduende so you can hear arguments on both sides, not just your side only. One of the experts is a cute blonde named Thalia. She argues that there is no free will and that it's an illusion. She's pretty hot too. lol

[Winston]

“Free will” is a concept which is used to blame people for their own failures and suffering, when in reality those who fail were born to fail and those who succeed were born to succeed, nobody has any control of the trajectory of their life as that is determined by destiny.

I agree, but that's not what free will is. Free will is an internal agency that can think and make choices. What you are talking about is fate and environment and destiny. Some people do have a destiny that is meant for them. For example, Steve Jobs was meant to start Apple and that's why it was successful for him whereas if you or I did what he did, we would fail because it wasn't meant for us. So there is a package that life gives us, like a template to work within. We do have some choices within the template, but we can't do or have anything we want like the law of attraction falsely claims. Also some couples meet for the first time and know right away that they have a destiny together and were meant to be. There are countless real life stories of this. In my experience, you can only have or attain what is within your destiny, more or less. You can always bend rules but not totally break them.

[Winston]

“Free will” is a concept which is used to blame people for their own failures and suffering, when in reality those who fail were born to fail and those who succeed were born to succeed, nobody has any control of the trajectory of their life as that is determined by destiny.

That's BS. Nobody is "born to fail". Some of us are born, or develop, personalities that are less conducive to attaining what is defined as "success" in our modern society. Do you know how many extremely successful men, including many celebrities whose life is under public scrutiny, are actually hated by their own children? Those men might be wealthy and successful by many standards, yet they are complete failures as fathers, perhaps as husbands or sons.

A more sane society looks at success in several other places: how harmonious someone's relations are with their community, how kind and helpful they are, even how much their work contributes to society. By many standards who used to be the rule until not so long ago, teachers used to be as respected as doctors and engineers, despite making a fraction of the latter. People had their priorities right and knew, or at least felt, that some people can be instrumental to the well being of a community even if they will never be wealthy, or famous.

But that is about destiny, not free will. Free will is an internal agency that can make choices freely without being controlled. I don't agree that no one is born to fail. Some people have consistent bad luck that chance can't explain, as if fate or the universe is against them. I've always felt that the universe was picking on me for instance, like I was a metaphysically targeted individual. Feelings are not imagination. For example if someone doesn't like you they give you a certain bad vibe that they dislike you. You can feel it, it's not imagination. If you are in a dangerous neighborhood there is a certain bad vibe warning you to not stay there, it's not imagination, it's your intuition picking up the REAL dark energy of the area.

In my case, I have felt the universe picking on me even as a child. For example in high school everyone was able to find a social clique without trying. But every social clique gave me an unfriendly wall that said "go away, go find another social clique, we don't want you". That was REAL. It was a no-win situation. I have been put in many no-win situation and then people blamed me for it, even though I did nothing wrong. That was cruel and evil of course, it was very VICTIMIZING. But American culture is very victim-blaming so it requires me to blame myself even if I am innocent and nice and did nothing wrong. That's simply the toxic American culture, which I dislike and disagree with and find to be INACCURATE too.

Also when I was in 4th grade, I was the only one fired from working in the school lunch cafeteria. My assignment was 2 weeks. But after 3 days they fired me for no reason. The teacher and principal refused to give me any explanation. I definitely felt picked on and singled out there. That didn't happen to the other kids. I've experienced things like this many times, as if the universe was picking on me and singling me out. It cannot be imagination, because feelings and vibes and energy are REAL.

New Agers would try to blame me though and say that people victimize me because I believe that they do, but that is backwards logic and victim-blaming and assumes that I randomly chose something bad for no reason out of pure free will, which is ridiculous of course. No one chooses to have bad things happen to them. Victims do not choose what happens to them of course. And believing in something doesn't make it true. Also premonitions do not cause the event that happens afterward, it's merely a foreseeing of it. So New Agers tend to have many things backwards in reverse.

To give a simple example: New Agers believe that if you worry about getting fired, you will get fired so you caused it. But that's not the case at all. The reasons you might worry about getting fired are: 1) You know you are incompatible with your job and company and can sense it. So can the managers. 2) The managers have already decided to let you go and so you are picking up on their thoughts telepathically since we are all interconnected at some level. 3) You are having a premonition of what's to come. For some reason, New Agers can't see these obvious reasons and instead try to blame you because they are NPCs programmed to do that, and falsely assume that we create everything and our minds are all powerful and we have total free will, all of which are false assumptions. So they must be very stupid and ignorant and dumb.

What do you think of all this @publicduende? Do you see my point?

[Winston]

“Free will” is a concept which is used to blame people for their own failures and suffering, when in reality those who fail were born to fail and those who succeed were born to succeed, nobody has any control of the trajectory of their life as that is determined by destiny.

That's BS. Nobody is "born to fail". Some of us are born, or develop, personalities that are less conducive to attaining what is defined as "success" in our modern society. Do you know how many extremely successful men, including many celebrities whose life is under public scrutiny, are actually hated by their own children? Those men might be wealthy and successful by many standards, yet they are complete failures as fathers, perhaps as husbands or sons.

A more sane society looks at success in several other places: how harmonious someone's relations are with their community, how kind and helpful trhey are, even how much their work contributes to society. By many standards who used to be the rule until not so long ago, teachers used to be as respected as doctors and engineers, despite making a fraction of the latter. People had their priorities right and knew, or at least felt, that some people can be instrumental to the well being of a community even if they will never be wealthy, or famous.

Look at the world around you. Did you ever have any choice in anything that you were born into? Your genetics, your location or background, your own family even?

Where is the free will when these basic components dictate everything that you will eventually become?

PD isn't saying that we choose our circumstances when we were born. Though some New Agers would say that our higher selves chose them. lol. He is saying that free will is an internal agency inside our minds that can make CHOICES freely without being forced to. The things you describe are fate and destiny and environment, which are not in our control for the most part. That's a different matter.

[MrMan]

This is an old thread, but I will respond here to the OP. In Christian theology, there is a debate about predestination and free will. Calvinists tend to believe that God determined who would believe and would receive undeserved grace through faith in Christ for forgiveness of sins. Some of them believe that everything that happens and every decision is predetermined. This would be not believing in free will-- that one has no innate ability to choose to pursue God, or for some of them to make any decision at all.

Those who believe in free will do not agree with that, and believe that human beings can make real choices. The saints being predestined might be explained as God predestining that there be saints, that there be a church, and they may not interpret it as going down to the individual level. That's just one interpretation that might go into free will. There are some passages in the Old Testament that do not fit well with the micro-predestination level.

So let's say you have corn flakes, and Cherrios and milk. That's all you have for breakfast. Your choices are corn flakes and milk, Cherrios and milk, mixing cereals, eating with no milk, just milk, and fasting. If you don't believe in free will, you might think that God predestined the choice you would make for breakfast. If you do believe in free will, you might believe that you chose to eat cornflakes with milk, or whatever.

The lack of options in the cupboard is not 'free will.' Your body becoming dependent on caffeine or nicotine to function and giving you a headache or shivers is not a lack of 'free will.' That's a different subject. Forces not allowing opportunities to open up to let you leave Taiwan, would not be a lack of 'free will'-- not according to this. If you could decide to walk down the street, but God or demons or people cause flights you try to take to get cancelled, that doesn't disprove that there could be free will.

5. Haven't you stood before a big drop and something in you told you to jump and kill yourself? Or haven't you had thoughts of murdering someone? Everyone has. Where do such negative dark intrusive thoughts come from? You do not choose them out of free will. They just come out of nowhere, perhaps your dark side, or perhaps from demons and entities attached to you, which all major religions and ancient cultures say exist.

I can honestly say 'no.' I've never looked at a ledge and had an internal edge to jump off and kill myself. I was facing a little problem at college one time, and on the car trip back to school, I did sense something telling me to just crash my car and die. But I recognized it as something demonic. As I recall, I rebuked it and it stopped. It was something external to me, speaking to my mind. I experienced like that on another occasion that I recall.

Thoughts of murdering someone? I can't remember thinking about murdering a real person. I have thought out some scenario of how something like that could be accomplished in a movie or a fictional story in my head. I've thought of ideas for movies, but never really pursued that. But I don't recall ever think through killing someone I really knew in real life. It's possible I did if I saw a documentary about a horrible criminal, someone who hurt then killed children or something like that. Maybe it isn't healthy to think along those lines for fiction, either.