Debate: Sex for fun (outside wedlock), prostitution, and traditionalism, in a healthy society

[WilliamSmith]

Well well, a side discussion in the "Thoughts on AI thread" turned into another interesting debate about sex, morality, traditionalism, and so on :

Ideally we would all live in a society where things like betas and incels don't exist and everyone can enjoy healthy and natural relationships with the opposite sex. If this was the case we wouldn't need things like porn and prostitution in the first place.

We'd still want prostitution. Sex with the same female forever would be boring. There needs to be some outlet to stop men from being tempted to turn normal females into sluts. Wives need something to stimulate their competitive instincts.

Sex with the same female forever would be boring.

You are a f***ing disgrace cornfed.

For upholding traditional values while stating the obvious?

Upholding traditional values my ass. You are nothing like a man such as my father is.

While I still like both @Outcast9428 and @Cornfed no matter how vehement the disagreement, this is a telling exchange:

Outcast9428 has a far more virtuous projection of his own fantasy idealism when he talks "traditional values," compared with the crass cynicism and misogyny of Cornfed suggesting men should get to treat women like a piece of livestock reserved for their own sexual use only. Of course, the woman in such an arrangement wouldn't be allowed to have sex with another man, but in Cornfed's model, men meanwhile are allowed to also go screw additional women penned up like livestock in brothels in order for the men to avoid sexual boredom...
So my take on that: While Outcast9428 has the moral high ground even if I think he's projecting fantasy ideals, unfortunately Cornfed's model is actually closer to the mark of what ACTUAL "traditional values" have usually been like when it comes to the treatment of women in many ultra-religious conservative cultures. (And that's still true today in a lot of heavily religious countries, like parts of India and some Muslim countries, among others.)

The idealized 1950s American culture wasn't as bad as the more hardcore religious conservative traditional models tended to be, but even the 1950s tradition of dating + monogamy basically made it so men initially had to go through rituals of a lot of expensive dates (which you can idealize as romantic courtship, and no doubt sometimes was, but not always), but then after roping a single woman they'd courted and dated for marriage, she had to be way too subservient in the household, and he who would sometimes drop all vestiges of romanticism.

Personally, I don't want any female friends, sisters, or daughters being subjected to any such arrangements, either penned up as livestock in a "Tradpill" marriage for the sexual release and/or breeding purposes of betas and incels (or any other men, for that matter), nor penned up in brothels for the sexual release of betas and incels (or "traditionalists" like Cornfed who think they should be able to enjoy sexual variety even while married, apparently).

Escorting isn't so bad if the chicks really are 100% OK with it I guess.
I wouldn't ever pay for sex, because of the psychological creepout of paying to stick it in a girl who wouldn't otherwise want to have sex with you at all (obviously not a scruple that bothers all men), though I'm not saying it's that horrible if the women actually choose that as a career. (I have seen a few, not as a customer, but who really didn't seem to mind that much and had a very down-to-earth view on sex, not to mention they made pretty damn good money, but "p4p" is definitely not my thing even at its most benign.)

My take on this:

@Pixel--dude weighed in with pretty much my own thoughts talking about how there's ideally humane solutions that don't involve treating women and girls like commodities that can still solve the problems of incels (in my view, letting guys like me and women be free to do whatever we want with each other, while developing sex robots and sex dolls to keep the incels happy). Then Cornfed came in proving I wasn't exaggerating in expressing concerns about women being trapped in prostitution and sex industries being treated like livestock, which he defines as "traditional values, to the consternation of Outcast9428.

I meanwhile plan to lay 100+ new women to embrace life to the fullest, knowing full well how much women actually like having casual sex whether or not we both keep an open option on escalating to a more involved romance.
Alternately, the much more experienced @E Irizarry R&B Singer is already well ahead of me with 100+, but unlike me he tells us he likes "pros," as well as scoring with horny women.

So what do the rest of you guys think on these contentious issues about casual/premarital sex vs prostitution vs these two substantially different takes on "traditional values" that those guys above put forth?

P.S.
See how much more fun this forum is than if they just immediately banned guys like me from Roosh for my 100+ campaign, vs banning guys like Cornfed for "hate speech" practically anywhere, vs banning... you get the idea! That's why Happier Abroad can be more entertaining and intellectually stimulating.

[Cornfed]

There is plenty of historical evidence of how functional societies work. Any proposed alternative is some form of feminist nonsense you have been brainwashed into.

[WilliamSmith]

There is plenty of historical evidence of how functional societies work. Any proposed alternative is some form of feminist nonsense you have been brainwashed into.

"Functional" is one thing, morally conscionable is another.
I said a "healthy" society, not just a "functional" one in which women and girls are nontheless unconscionably penned up like livestock FBO a bunch of mean, whiny betas and incels, whether they're under the grip of religious delusions to justify their unsound conduct or not.
And the fantasies of many tradpill types that a bunch of hook-nosed child-molesting yarmulke-wearing rats in the satanic Vatican supposedly presiding over an idealized society where virtuous marriage coexisted in harmony with institutionalized prostitution is pure fantasy.

But it's ironic you say I'm brainwashed by "feminism" for wanting to nail a lot of horny hetero women while still asserting the female human beings have actual human rights, since damn near half those psychotic twisted female jew mutant 2nd wave feminists like Andrea Dworkin consider us hetero guys who like having consensual sex with women to be the arch-enemy of "feminism," even before they showed their full hand on trying to war against gender itself via transgenderism and globohomo (which I agree with you should be outlawed).

[WilliamSmith]

Although I don't think people who "play the field" or enjoy having promiscuous lifestyles are degenerates, I do believe if you have a partner then you should at least be loyal to that partner, especially if she believes the relationship is a loving monogamous one. There is no worse feeling than betrayal by someone you love.

If the relationship is a polyamorous relationship, then that is a whole different kettle of ball games. Both parties know exactly what to expect and know where they stand. Whereas a relationship where the woman (or man) feels it is a monogamous relationship and the other is living as though it is polyamorous by f***ing around then said person betraying their partner is indeed a piece of shit. Have some respect for the one who loves you! If you don't want to be loyal or be in a relationship then just end it and be single.

I believe women should be treated with basic respect, anyone should be really, unless they give you a reason not to respect them. I always strive to treat others how I want to be treated, and I want to be treated with respect.

I stand by what I said in the A.I thread. Sex robots should be A.I robots that incel men can use in place of prostitutes. I mean, to take this further. Like Cornfed said, if a guy was "bored" of sleeping with the same woman (which in my opinion means he can't really love her) would it really be cheating on his partner if he popped down to the local brothel and had sex with a realistic looking doll for half an hour? Haha. No STD, no cheating, no problem.

I couldn't agree more with those sentiments, for the most part. Unfortunately it is possible to really love one woman but unfortunately not quite be able to maintain full interest in sex with her only even if you still love doing it with her as well as other women, but other than that, agree.
That's one of those reasons I think forced imposition of unnatural monogamy really isn't the best idea: It stacks the deck in favor of cheaters who might otherwise be in honest "open relationships."
But honest is important if people are serious that they even have a real relationship.

Not for Pixel--dude, but as an aside with an FYI for any of the various guys out there who have some kind of "I wanna screw lots of women openly, but don't want her to let any other guys throw one in even while I'm off doing that" mentality:
Lots of "veterans" who do open relationships and have a lot of girlfriends will actually report that even though they don't try to impose an "I can do it but you can't policy" on their women, that many times their girlfriends or open relationship wives won't choose to go get any from other men. They could, in theory, but apparently the women just often don't, by their own choice. *shrugs*
One of my friends who gets laid often enough I supposed but who's really not even much of a ladies' man actually was in such a relationship: He got a nice down to earth chick with big tits (a single Mom who I think was in her late 20s or early 30s) who took him by surprise by not being interested in other men, even though she actually encouraged him to go and lay other women, which I guess she thought was healthy male behavior, LOL. (And it wasn't some pervy group thing where she watched him either, she just encouraged him to go out on his own and do it.)
So you never know what attitudes some women will have on these matters.
Sometimes one of their #1 priorities is to want a man in her life, but not want him to be too clingy, needy, or possessive, so actively encourage him to go enjoy more lays while they still maintain some real warmth in their relationship is probably one possible way to achieve that, though I have never thought nearly as much about what it's like from the women's POV.

[CaptainSkelebob]

Banging women is the highlight of life....
Inside wedlock or outside wedlock I dont give a hoot
Anyone who buys into all this white knight bullshit is a loser with no balls.....
Its no wonder a lot of women cheat on their weak beta boyfriends
Never had custard leaking out the end of my meat sword anyway..... but we all know half these incel fellas are bringing a dagger to a sword fight and that is the issue for them

[ArchibaultNew]

Prostitution seems like a neccesariy evil that's a win-win for everyone more so in a traditional society.

I talked to a friend who visited some EE and LATM countries. He said how he saw things was that in a traditional society there's no "alpha" or "betas' instead there are "madonnas" and "whores." I would say that 80% of women are Madonnas. And 20% are whores. Most Madonnas are not going on "girl's trips", to "stripclubs" or to "nightclubs." Most are at home with their families.

Prostitution is regulated and "hidden" most guys lose their virginity with hookers as opposed to having to lose it with the "town bicycle." There's usually "high school" sweethearts and they get married. Then prostitution is reserved brothels for special occasions like work meetings with the collegues or birthday celebration.

Prostitution is the sexual freedom granted to heterosexual men within a traditional society, this freedom is Denied in Anglo-saxon societies who don't like their men having too much fun. Most guys who live in this type of society learn to see "sex as no big deal" and stop idealizing or demonizing it. They simply see it as a outlet to satisfy physical needs. Most men stay with their wives and are not looking for divorces.

Most men seem to be "respected" in society at large and are not made fun of like "bubbling idiots."

In the Anglo-societies and the societies ithere's none of this. Instead, you have tons of virgins, gays, incels and simps and others. Who "worship" average women since they don't have an outlet. Men are taught to "sink or swim" if you lose you deserve nothing. The worst thing you can be is a "loser.

[Cornfed]

There is plenty of historical evidence of how functional societies work. Any proposed alternative is some form of feminist nonsense you have been brainwashed into.

"Functional" is one thing, morally conscionable is another.

They are the same thing. Civilization functions in a certain way and anything else leads to people having a progressively worse time while cannibalizing previous achievements before the whole thing crashes and burns.

[Lucas88]

I don't have a problem with either recreational sex outside wedlock or prostitution. I prefer to live in a relatively free society that doesn't attempt to impose all kinds of restrictions on people in the name of morality. As such I'm not a fan of "traditionalist" societies whether they be real historical ones or idealized versions of what traditionalism is supposed to be and I particularly dislike any form of traditionalism with a puritanical bent.

Recreational sex outside wedlock is inevitable and any attempt to repress such impulses and instead enforce strict monogamy and puritanism is pure folly. Such an attempt, no matter how "noble" its rationale may appear, will only serve to exacerbate all kinds of neuroses within a population and ultimately breed a high degree of resentment among the most dissatisfied individuals in society. These dissatisfied individuals will turn on the culture of which they are a part and adopt radical subversive ideologies aimed at its destruction. Indeed this has already happened in our own society. Many of the individuals who joined the counterculture and other movements associated with the radical left probably would never have done so if they hadn't been subjected to an overly repressive, neurotic, puritanical Jewdeo-Christian social order. I believe that @WilliamSmith made a similar point in another thread. From the perspective of a ruler, it is always better to allow one's subjects a certain degree of freedom. Otherwise resentment takes root and a desire for subversion starts to manifest.

As for prostitution, while I certainly am opposed to trafficking and other unethical practices and believe that the government should crack down on those things, I am in favor of independent escorting in which the women are not coerced and simply sell their services voluntarily. The benefits of this kind of arrangement are multiple:

1. Incels and guys who are not that good with women may have access to sex, even if it is just a business transaction. Enjoying sex with an escort from time to time will make those guys feel a little happier, less dissatisfied and less resentful. They will no longer feel like sexual access is being withheld from them and will therefore be less inclined to harbor negative feelings towards society at large. They may be less likely to harm others out of resentment.

2. The availability of prostitution on a large scale gives men more bargaining power in matters of sex and relationships. That's the real reason why feminism is so opposed to it. Once regular women know that they cannot act as the ultimate gatekeepers of sexual access since any guy with a hundred bucks can just go see a pro they are no longer in a position to make exorbitant demands or hold unreasonable expectations and they're forced to up their game. This shifts the bargaining power more in our favor much to the chagrin of misandric feminists who only seek to disempower men.

3. A subset of women who are "built" for the business are able to make large amounts of money working as escorts. That subset of women are natural hoes. They are driven by their own materialism and a taste for luxury and "the good life". We live in a society where much emphasis is placed on female education and getting women into high-paying professions yet despite all of that some women's go-to move is to open an OnlyFans account or become an escort. Those women don't want to be "emancipated" by feminism. They have no problem with selling sex for way more that they could ever earn doing some corporate slave job. If they want to sell their sexual services I have no problem with it either.

Now let's talk about more traditional monogamous relationships. I think that those should be celebrated too among the monogamously inclined guys like @Outcast9428 and romantic monogamous women (or what Archibault calls "madonnas", although I personally have never heard of the term). I myself perceive that the extreme sluttiness that many tradcons complain about today is primarily caused by (((social engineering))) in the media. Hoe culture has been pushed in the media for the last few decades and has only gotten progressively more explicit. I honestly believe that if that garbage wasn't been pushed everywhere and instead a more positive picture of true romance was being promoted in the media then things would be better for monogamous romantic people. I guess that the 80% of madonnas and their male equivalence would be able to enjoy what they really want and the WilliamSmiths and E Irizarrys of the world and myself to an extent could keep on enjoying out multiple horny women with big butts from the other 20%.

As for sex robots, sex robots will never cut it. Incels know that the robots are fake no matter how advanced the AI is. They'll only be satisfied with the real thing. Just let them pay an honest professional. If all goes well both parties should mutually benefit from the encounter.

[fschmidt]

There is plenty of historical evidence of how functional societies work. Any proposed alternative is some form of feminist nonsense you have been brainwashed into.

Obviously. But the other posters here are too retarded to understand. It isn't just historical evidence, it is simply logical that allowing female promiscuity outside of prostitution will turn most women into sluts. But I am not going to argue with the morons here.

[Outcast9428]

There is plenty of historical evidence of how functional societies work. Any proposed alternative is some form of feminist nonsense you have been brainwashed into.

Obviously. But the other posters here are too retarded to understand. It isn't just historical evidence, it is simply logical that allowing female promiscuity outside of prostitution will turn most women into sluts. But I am not going to argue with the morons here.

My problem is not with prostitution in of itself. I think prostitution should primarily be for unmarried, teenage boys so that they can become comfortable with girls and relieve some of their sexual frustration until they are able to provide for a family. The only exceptions to this would be guys who are widowed or who's marriages fell apart. Otherwise, it should just be unmarried, teenage boys.

What I do not intend for prostitution to be used for is for guys like @Cornfed or @CaptainSkelebob if they were married, to get a piece of ass on the side. Quite frankly these men don't deserve traditional wives and I don't think they'll ever get one given how obviously narcissistic they are.

@WilliamSmith

That girl you mentioned who thinks its "healthy male behavior" for her husband to be running around trying to sleep with other women. Yeah I would never a marry like that even if she promised to be loyal to me. That feels like a form of masochism to me and shows that woman does not have the right values. I would be disgusted by my girlfriend or wife encouraging me to sleep with other women. That's why I would dump any woman who suggested bringing a friend for a threesome to me.

I don't just want a woman to not sleep around with other men. I want her to be possessive of me. I want and expect my wife to jealously guard my fidelity. A woman who would not guard my fidelity does not love me. She obviously values me for different reasons and not as a true wife. Say what one will about Mike Pence's cuckery with the election, but his marriage is a good one because they accept that jealousy in a marriage is a force for good. Mike Pence doesn't even allow himself to be in a room, alone with a woman who isn't his wife.

When I was dating my ex, I encouraged her to be strict about any man's fidelity. I told her any man who cheats on her or even expresses an interest in sleeping with other women cannot be trusted again and she should dump him. I told her she should never have forgiven her ex boyfriend when he first cheated on her, that it sent a message to him that she was going to tolerate it. I told her if my father could go his whole life, effortlessly staying faithful to my mother then any man can do it, men who claim they can't are just weak willed monkeys.

[Outcast9428]

@WilliamSmith

Keep in mind that Islam has different values from Christianity. Islam has polygamy baked into its social structure and my Arab friends from college said that the polygamy in countries like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Afghanistan used to be really bad in the past. Islam allows men to be adulterous as part of its social structure whereas Christianity does not. As far as it being normal in India. I don't think that's true.

[CaptainSkelebob]

@Outcast9428 let me stop you right there.... me??? A narcissist??? You will be calling me sarcastic next
I studied psychology and let me tell you. A narcissist is often someone who sticks their nose into other ppls business with notions of moral superiority.... so which of us is the narcissist I wonder???
I dont deserve a wife??? Because I will bang women on the side??? The way I see it is that every woman deserves a bit of me. There is plenty to go around

[Outcast9428]

@Outcast9428 let me stop you right there.... me??? A narcissist??? You will be calling me sarcastic next
I studied psychology and let me tell you. A narcissist is often someone who sticks their nose into other ppls business with notions of moral superiority.... so which of us is the narcissist I wonder???
I dont deserve a wife??? Because I will bang women on the side??? The way I see it is that every woman deserves a bit of me. There is plenty to go around

An irredeemable slimeball of a human being is what you are. I know all of evil’s tricks so don’t bother trying to turn this around on me. No a creature like you does not deserve a wife.

[Lucas88]

@Outcast9428 let me stop you right there.... me??? A narcissist??? You will be calling me sarcastic next
I studied psychology and let me tell you. A narcissist is often someone who sticks their nose into other ppls business with notions of moral superiority.... so which of us is the narcissist I wonder???
I dont deserve a wife??? Because I will bang women on the side??? The way I see it is that every woman deserves a bit of me. There is plenty to go around

An irredeemable slimeball of a human being is what you are. I know all of evil’s tricks so don’t bother trying to turn this around on me. No a creature like you does not deserve a wife.

You probably shouldn't bother with this CaptainSkelebob, Outcast. He's exactly the same kind of selfish, solipsistic, semi-bestial type which I talked about in my "Nature's Gynocentrism and the Metaphysics of the War of the Sexes" thread. There are many people like him out there. The only difference is that he's more honest about it and even seems to want to gloat about it behind the anonymity that the internet provides.

Just avoid anybody with that kind of disposition and search for a girl with a more evolved noble disposition and you should be fine. Such people really do exist even if they're in the minority.

[Cornfed]

I do not really believe any woman should have a job anyway because when they do, things just go to shit for a society. Why make an exception for prostitution?

Because some females aren't suitable for marriage and instead of them just being a scourge they can enhance marriage by providing a sexual outlet for men that doesn't turn normal females into sluts and adulteresses. BTW, it is not just actual prostitution that whore-class females do. They can be various other kinds of entertainers and public-facing workers. You wouldn't want wives doing those jobs and you are missing a big chunk of culture with no-one doing them.