Most people don't want freedom. So we've assumed wrong?

Wolfeye · Post by **Wolfeye** » February 26th, 2014, 5:53 am

I just read something that said "A different world cannot be built by indifferent people." This is a good point.

momopi- The thing is with those cultures you're talking about is that they didn't work with the same paradigm as the other "civilizations." A major point was that people tended to be generalists. They handled their own things & collaborated on bg projects (a big hunt for winter food, for instance). People that were lazy weren't usually left to starve, but they didn't get held in a high regard.. For instance: the prestige & involvement in tribal actions that someone else would get wasn't given to them. Never mind trying to get laid (which DID happen outside of marriage from time to time, but marriage was't likely to happen either)! An interesting point is that they approached who they wanted to be a leader, not the leader campaigning & bragging about themselves. There was a saying: "A humble man never stumbles." If someone was arrogant, they'd have their head in the air & not notice anything on the ground that they'd trip over- this might be literally, but overall they'd be too arrogant to notice their own mistakes. Lying was a big problem & they figured that if someone was a liar they could use deceit to cover up anything- even very serious stuff. This is an accurate deduction.

Different tribes worked different ways, but there wasn't a theme of being dependant like that. You had division of labor in the home to a large degree, but people did tend to have a basic level of ability. The general theme was that the man went out & got things and the woman made them into something. This wasn't an all-day everyday thing, either. People got things out of the way & had all kinds of time to socialize or do recreational things (there's nothing to say you couldn't be talking to someone as you're working on a project or gamble on training competitions, either). The workoad was more functionally based, too. It was a question if you did or would need something & if what you made worked to your satisfaction. I think that would make the work more satisfying, in addition to the jobs themselves blending well into someone's life.

That situation is frequently depicted as a mirror image of today or civilizations like Greece or Rome, but that idea of specialization of labor is from a bit later than what you're talking about. I figure it's a lot more of a substitution, just like when you have technology doing things INSTEAD of you. I really believe this causes a host of mental issues, on top of everything else. Bottling everything up to be P.C. is an issue, too. Seems like you could spit it out a bit more in that kind of society (not that there wasn't a concept of politeness, but it wasn't to the point of muting someone).

People tended to be free to do things as they suited them as long as they didn't start acting like an enemy (there's no way to say anything so someone can't lie or twist your words, but hopefully you'll get what I mean). They didn't bust people's chops on every little thing & try to micromanage their lives. You got people that recreationally used drugs- some tribes frowned on it, some only frowned on it if it was an addiction. A major point was not destroying the environment. They realized that they would be having an impact, but they tried to tread carefully. This included moving away sometimes so that the landscape could recover- instead of taking it to the point of being eroded.

jamesbond · Post by **jamesbond** » February 26th, 2014, 6:25 am

As Winston would say, "give me my freedom and my liberty."

Wolfeye · Post by **Wolfeye** » February 26th, 2014, 4:41 pm

Got a huge laught out of that one, jamesbond! It's like an Asian NRA poster, haha!

Just as an after thought that I just remeber that I didn't put into my last post: Weapons wheren't such an exclusive thing or held in such a stimga. It was fairly common for people to be armed (maybe in camp or not, but nobody busted your chops for having them). There was also a more realistic view on usig them. If something happened, they didn't think that just because someone had the capacity to kill their enemy that they also had the capacity to do everything else that leads up to killing in severity.

ntm1972 · Post by **ntm1972** » March 4th, 2014, 1:59 pm

You commonly hear that people are being exploited at their jobs. While it is true that exploitation occurs all the time, the notion that these victims are content with their slavery can be mind-blowing to a freedom-loving individual, until you realize that what you're doing is projecting your love of liberty onto those who love their servitude.

So in the course of doing business, when you witness someone toiling on your behalf, should you feel at all guilty for the suffering they may be undergoing? Or, should you say to yourself "Look, there are only two possibilities. Either this person is temperamentally suited for the work in question or he isn't. If he is, then let him work on your behalf without guilt, and just do your part to make sure he isn't being abused in the course of his labors. If he isn't, then hope that he will use his current situation as motivation to improve his lot in life."

HouseMD · Post by **HouseMD** » March 4th, 2014, 2:12 pm

Those that value society were more likely to succeed and reproduce versus the "lone wolf" types. After all, every person on this forum is a product of parents that live within society. Therefore, those that are more controlled by their fear responses and desire security are more prevalent in society than those that are adventurous and want to make their own path. This is why everyone here is pretty much crazy when compared to normal people, and why I find it so amusing that a lot of posters side with Republicans or Democrats, when the fact is that neither represent your interests. There's the liberal collectivists (D) and the conservative collectivists (R), but most people here are true individualists whose needs, impulses, and desires aren't even on the radar of either group.

A certain number of adventurers/individualists are optimal, even in a species that is largely centered around societies, as those adventurous souls are the ones that blaze new trails which society will follow. Hence why free spirited individuals haven't been completely bred out of the species yet. But, lacking any real new area to explore, I fear the age of adventurers may soon be over, and those with more eclectic tendencies will be outcast and subsequently bred out of the gene pool.

Or maybe I just haven't eaten enough today so I'm speaking gibberish, I dunno.

mfpinwa · Post by **mfpinwa** » March 21st, 2014, 10:23 pm

Excellent point! I agree completely.
Couple of related points:
1. There are two types of people, collectivist and individualist
Here is a link describing these two: http://freedomkeys.com/collectivism.htm

2. I've been thinking about buying a boat and drifting off to some tropical island. What stops from this is the thought that I may need medical attention or there may be pirates. The problem is we need the benefits of society, i.e. medical care, security, comforts, etc. if we try to live free from others then we must give up those benefits. We must accept the social contract, give up our freedom in order to obtain the benefits. There's no free lunch. The question is are you ready to be truly free and give up all the benefits?

mfpinwa · Post by **mfpinwa** » March 21st, 2014, 10:37 pm

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." -- Jefferson et al, The Declaration of Independence

ChampionKaji · Post by **ChampionKaji** » March 22nd, 2014, 1:48 am

Freedom is only a means to an end.

PeterAndrewNolan · Post by **PeterAndrewNolan** » April 20th, 2014, 6:33 am

ntm1972 wrote:You commonly hear that people are being exploited at their jobs. While it is true that exploitation occurs all the time, the notion that these victims are content with their slavery can be mind-blowing to a freedom-loving individual, until you realize that what you're doing is projecting your love of liberty onto those who love their servitude.

Yep..most men love their servitude...they would not know what to do if they were free.