What constitutes a good novel? + Literary vs. Genre Fiction

[Lucas88]

I admit that I haven't read that many works of fiction over the last decade. Non-fiction books about philosophy, history, mythology and esotericism are more of my thing. I've read very few of the literary classics. I never cared for the English classics which I had to read in school. I haven't even read Cervantes' Don Quixote in full. Instead I've read only a few titles of lowbrow genre fiction and some Latin American novels from the second half of the 20th century. I particularly love to read novels in Spanish because I perceive that the language has a certain magic when it comes to depicting works of fiction.

However, even though I'm not much of a seasoned reader of fiction, I do have an interest in writing my own material. Thus far I have written a few novellas which fall into the category of speculative fiction and am in the process of writing a pretty bizarre novel about cosmetic surgery, murder and escaping justice. @Pixel--Dude, who has written some fiction of his own, has read my current material. He can attest to how dark and messed up my novel is. Sometimes I doubt my own sanity. I also have a few ideas for a supernatural or occult novel which I might begin to write once I have the plot and characters more fleshed out.

Most people who read my material tell me that I'm a good writer and some have even told me that what I write is better than many of the published books that they've read, but I actually don't intellectually know too much about literary technique. I've never taken a creative writing course or anything like that. I just seem to have good intuition when it comes to forming sentences, as though some force from within tells me how to write something and it just feels right.

That said, I would still like to do whatever I can to better intellectually understand the dimensions of the novel and more concretely what makes a novel good.

What do you think makes a good novel and what elements should a good novel include?

@Pixel--Dude, @Tsar, @gsjackson, @WilliamSmith

I've heard some say that a novel should reflect the social landscape of its setting, political themes, social commentary, etc. That seems to be the case with many modern novels.

I've also heard it argued that a true novel should encompass the totality of life. I imagine that that would entail the inclusion of philosophical and existential themes and insightful reflections upon the human condition.

When it comes to writing style, many seem to believe that the writing should be highly descriptive, but I personally find boring novels which excessively describe mundane settings. Reading through my own material, I notice that I don't often go into much depth describing the physical appearance of a scene. Rather I tend to describe in great detail the characters' feelings and mental states. Those things seem much more interesting to me.

I also think that brief philosophical reflections inserted into dialogues here and there make a novel much more interesting. My current novel isn't primarily philosophical (it's more about the vanity and hedonistic impulses of Miami's moneyed social elite, the illusion of such a society, murder and mystery), but I still make sure to include an occasional philosophical reflection on aesthetics, nature of reality, meaning of life, etc. Often different characters express different or contrary viewpoints on a single philosophical topic and in the novel I explore how such different viewpoints influence their actions.

What do you guys think?


Bonus question: What do you think is best between literary and genre fiction? Do you think that literary fiction really is superior or is it rather overrated and no better than many works of the more popular genre fiction?

[Pixel--Dude]

I admit that I haven't read that many works of fiction over the last decade. Non-fiction books about philosophy, history, mythology and esotericism are more of my thing. I've read very few of the literary classics. I never cared for the English classics which I had to read in school. I haven't even read Cervantes' Don Quixote in full. Instead I've read only a few titles of lowbrow genre fiction and some Latin American novels from the second half of the 20th century. I particularly love to read novels in Spanish because I perceive that the language has a certain magic when it comes to depicting works of fiction.

However, even though I'm not much of a seasoned reader of fiction, I do have an interest in writing my own material. Thus far I have written a few novellas which fall into the category of speculative fiction and am in the process of writing a pretty bizarre novel about cosmetic surgery, murder and escaping justice. @Pixel--Dude, who has written some fiction of his own, has read my current material. He can attest to how dark and messed up my novel is. Sometimes I doubt my own sanity. I also have a few ideas for a supernatural or occult novel which I might begin to write once I have the plot and characters more fleshed out.

Most people who read my material tell me that I'm a good writer and some have even told me that what I write is better than many of the published books that they've read, but I actually don't intellectually know too much about literary technique. I've never taken a creative writing course or anything like that. I just seem to have good intuition when it comes to forming sentences, as though some force from within tells me how to write something and it just feels right.

That said, I would still like to do whatever I can to better intellectually understand the dimensions of the novel and more concretely what makes a novel good.

What do you think makes a good novel and what elements should a good novel include?

@Pixel--Dude, @Tsar, @gsjackson, @WilliamSmith

I've heard some say that a novel should reflect the social landscape of its setting, political themes, social commentary, etc. That seems to be the case with many modern novels.

I've also heard it argued that a true novel should encompass the totality of life. I imagine that that would entail the inclusion of philosophical and existential themes and insightful reflections upon the human condition.

When it comes to writing style, many seem to believe that the writing should be highly descriptive, but I personally find boring novels which excessively describe mundane settings. Reading through my own material, I notice that I don't often go into much depth describing the physical appearance of a scene. Rather I tend to describe in great detail the characters' feelings and mental states. Those things seem much more interesting to me.

I also think that brief philosophical reflections inserted into dialogues here and there make a novel much more interesting. My current novel isn't primarily philosophical (it's more about the vanity and hedonistic impulses of Miami's moneyed social elite, the illusion of such a society, murder and mystery), but I still make sure to include an occasional philosophical reflection on aesthetics, nature of reality, meaning of life, etc. Often different characters express different or contrary viewpoints on a single philosophical topic and in the novel I explore how such different viewpoints influence their actions.

What do you guys think?


Bonus question: What do you think is best between literary and genre fiction? Do you think that literary fiction really is superior or is it rather overrated and no better than many works of the more popular genre fiction?

I think everyone has their own interpretation of what is a good novel. I can only speak for me personally. But to simultaneously answer your post and your bonus question; I like a character driven novel so literary fiction over genre fiction, I would say. Character driven stories focus more on character development and like you said focusing on the character's mental states over generic tropes makes a novel more interesting and engaging.

I also hate over descriptive scenes. Stephen King is guilty of this. He writes paragraphs and paragraphs describing something like a fire place that's never in the novel again afterwards. I used to like Stephen King's work, but now I don't really rate him at all.

I am really into Junji Ito at the moment who writes his own graphic novels and does all his own art work. He does three kinds of stories. Graphic novels, adaptations and manga. He's a very talented artist and a decent horror writer. I find the horror genre very samey samey, but Junji Ito does a unique kind of body horror and cosmic horror inspired by H.P. Lovecraft.

I've written my own novel, but I don't like it at all. I don't talk about it because I think it glorifies evil. It makes me uncomfortable that I wrote it. The story is about a detective who is hunting a serial killer. It doesn't contain anything deep or philosophical, which is another reason I don't like it. It was fun to write at the time though as I was going through a stage where I was fascinated by serial killers and the psychology of serial killers.

I'm currently trying to flesh out three ideas I have at the moment. Which I don't mind sharing with everyone:

1. A piece of fantasy fiction. Our MC is an architect and a smith who works away from home during a war. He smiths weapons for his country's side and when the war is over he travels back home. One night he sets up camp and is joined by a stranger.

The two talk about architecture, history (of the fictional world the story is set in), philosophical themes such as the stars and life after death and various gods and demons. After a chat the two men bid each other farewell before the stranger grabs MC, rips his throat out and drinks his blood. Impressed by the MC's rare philosophical thinking, the stranger decides to impart the dark gift upon him.

The rest of the story is about the MC becoming a vampire, wrestling with his predatory nature and travelling the world and observing humanity whilst the MC reflects on the philosophical nature of being, nature of evil, nature of humanity and religious persecution.

2. The second idea is a philosophical book where I'll talk about my philosophical views on life and metaphysical themes. I have two distinct ideas in mind for how I will do this and would like some feedback on which works best.

Tree of Life - A serious take on the project, I'll speak about the different branches of philosophy which make up the tree of life.

Philosophy of A Shit Stick - Same project, but from a different perspective where I'll try and inject some humour into the philosophical musings. Would this work? I call it Philosophy of a shit stick because I perceive work culture as clandestine slavery and workers are akin to sticks that are just used for poking shit with.

Which do you think would work best? The content will be what I've talked about in the forum. Eventually I will connect all my philosophical threads into a compendium for anyone interested and for my own convenience as I will use them as a guide for this project.

3. A novel about the gods and goddesses of Sumerian mythology written in the form of fiction. The story will follow Enki and his creation of humanity, the conflict with his father Anu (Yahweh) and the consequent war between the Anuist and Enkist factions for the future of humanity. The novel will contain several philosophical themes and is my favourite idea at the moment.

When I was having a psychedelic experience I perceived that I should absolutely write this book. Like Enki himself wants me to write it. It would blow Sitchin's account of the same thing out of the water! Plus it would contain other themes that interest me.

@Lucas88 & others, these are my ideas. Which of them do you like the sound of?

I've read the opening chapters of Lucas88's novel and I found it pretty good. It's got lots of themes which make it interesting. Some of it is deep and philosophical, some of it is really dark and some of it is light hearted and funny. A good mixture such as mentioned above is another thing that makes a good novel. Something which evokes a range of emotions and engages the reader!

[WilliamSmith]

I have to leave again for a brief period of time (will be back hopefully in 1-2 weeks) so will read all this more carefully next time, but have to throw out my recommendations:

Monkey (translation by Arthur Waley of Wu Cheng'en's "Journey to the West," the ancient Chinese novel from many thousands of years ago)

Robert E. Howard, especially the original Conan the Barbarian, but also his other stuff (Solomon Kane / Bran Mak Morn / Cormac / dialect Westerns / etc)

Jack Vance (especially the "Dying Earth" series and "Showboat World")

I could name a lot of other novels that impressed me or that I've at least enjoyed (and I particularly like the bodice ripper romance novels written by women for obvious reasons), but when it comes to terse, polished, masterful use of language, and pacing (especially in Robert E Howard's case), those ones above are very good.

Edit to add some thoughts: In REH's case, he had to nail everything down to fit in the pages of Weird Tales magazine and also make it impactful and polished enough that it wouldn't get the raspberry from picky editors in lean times. Weird Tales, of course, was in those days considered a lowbrow thing, yet REH's skill level totally blew modern writers so far out of the water that there's really no comparison. The completely undisciplined mess of meaningless verbiage from popular jew york times best-selling novelists, in my opinion, is not a good source to learn from.