What PUA, Racial Nationalism, and MGTOW get wrong

[Nailer]

These are three philosophies that I have looked at but none of them ever really felt right.

PUAs say that a man is 100% responsible for how a relationship goes and everything is always his fault. There is a lot of emphasis on giving the woman exactly what she wants, at any given time. Being "masculine" means being a mind-reader. Basically, the whole "red pill" thing boils down to "I found a more effective way to supplicate women". All bad female behavior is blamed on evolutionary psychology, because women have no agency and cannot be held accountable for their actions.

Racial nationalism (I'm white, so in my case WN, but it applies to everyone) is basically a solid idea for all races, and was how everyone thought up until about 1965 North America and Europe. Without hating everyone, the Chinese, Indians, Kenyans, etc. put their own national interests first. This is good and healthy, and Europeans should be no different. However, there is a strong p***y-whipped element and worship of "white Aryan goddesses" that is just laughable. All bad female behavior is blamed on the Joos, because women have no agency and cannot be held accountable for their actions. Basically, white nationalism is a Jewish supremacism conspiracy theory that turns a blind eye to female behavior. It's pretty much dying out because the baby-boomers are absolutely out of touch with what girls today are actually like.

MGTOW says you can't win, so don't even play. Even escaping the Anglosphere is not a solution, because if you bring her back to the U.S. she can screw up your life. They just think that women are inherently bad and nothing can be done. But if you bring a girl back to a country where she has all the legal and social advantages, is she a bad person or are you just a person who makes bad choices?

If your best friend had green eyes, would you go to an island with them where people with green eyes were allowed to imprison non-greens and take all their money, with no legal consequences? Would your friend be offended that you did not want to go visit such a place? Is this a matter of morality and character, or just a really badly structured deal? MGTOW is saying that if you put the knife in her hand, put it to your throat, and beg her to cut you, while society and the legal system cheer her on, she is an evil person for following through.

Giving up all legal and social power and relying on the mercy of your girl is not a good way to live life, but that is the reality in the west. Even if you never get divorced, she will always have you in a guillotine on a day to day basis. This is why relationships in the west are so bad. Women have all the power and no accountability. Dating advice will not change that fact. Acting "alpha" and lifting weights will not change that.

The REAL problem is that the west is a matriarchy. There are three things a man has no control over in America. This is REAL oppression on a medieval level.

• Circumcision: The penis is partially amputated at birth without anesthetic. Women are complaining about oppression while infant boys are mutilated daily. Can you even imagine the shrieks if anything like this was happening to white north American women? It would be a daily national crisis, but p***y-whipped American guys are too dumb to realize they are holding a winning card that trumps rape.
• Child support: Men have no reproductive rights, but have to pay, no matter what. This should be abolished.
• Alimony: Men almost always earn more (because they work harder and make better choices) but women can divorce them on a whim.

Any man who actually says we need to abolish circumcision, child support, and alimony will be mocked by PUA "alphas", tradcons, racial nationlists, conspiracy theorists, and other "manly" men. (32:30):

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDJmeR3bnfM[/youtube]

These are the three pillars of oppression in the west, and until they are destroyed it makes sense to check out of society. PUAs think you can overcome systemic oppression with dating advice. They are wrong. You can't outsmart an oppressive legal system by lifting weights and acting tough. Racial nationalists turn a blind eye to the issue and are just incredibly naïve.

It sort of seems like the more obsessed with "manliness" a group of guys is, the more p***y-whipped they actually are. Who is really more "manly", a skinny Asian guy in Ukraine who keeps his position of power, or a roided-up jock in America who puts his life at the mercy of female whims? I'm starting to think the first guy is actually more masculine, and the second one is an unfortunate and psychologically f***ed up guy trapped by female expectations.





MGTOW is wrong because they say that the true nature of women is evil and untrustworthy, but they don't make the connection that this behavior is only allowed in the oppressive west. If I enter a business deal that says my partner can leave at any time and take all the assets, does that mean my business partner is a bad person when they act in their own best interests, or am I just stupid? In the west, even if you find a good woman, you are putting yourself at the mercy of another person not to screw you over. You are always in the inferior position because of the legal system. Does that mean women are bad, or does it just mean the system is giving them power they should not have?

If I live in Russia and my 19-year-old girlfriend gets pregnant and says she wants to leave, or starts acting badly, you know I would tell her? "Good luck!" (I don't know the details of how the legal system over there works, but I know they don't have the ass-raping life-destroying system the U.S. has.)

MGTOW says women are evil because if you surrender all power they will take advantage of you. But I say you can still live life and not put yourself in a position to be taken advantage of, by going abroad and STAYING THERE. Bringing a girl to the U.S. is like a Muslim woman bringing her foreign husband to Saudi Arabia. As soon as you touch U.S. soil you are the bitch because of the structural nature of the legal and social system. She might be merciful, but you are still at an enormous disadvantage. Better not to give them that power in the first place.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

MGTOW says you can't win, so don't even play. Even escaping the Anglosphere is not a solution, because if you bring her back to the U.S. she can screw up your life. They just think that women are inherently bad and nothing can be done. But if you bring a girl back to a country where she has all the legal and social advantages, is she a bad person or are you just a person who makes bad choices?

Your facts are wrong here..... Who wants to bring a girl back to the USA? Most MGTOW do not want to marry women AT ALL. Those few who do are smart enough to want to live outside the gynocentric grip of the Anglosphere.

MGTOW is saying that if you put the knife in her hand, put it to your throat, and beg her to cut you, while society and the legal system cheer her on, she is an evil person for following through.

Wrong again.... Most MGTOW believe that it is THE SYSTEM that enables and even encourages women to bring down state power on men. Women are just being women by using the tools the system provides them.

MGTOW is wrong because they say that the true nature of women is evil and untrustworthy, but they don't make the connection that this behavior is only allowed in the oppressive west.

Not completely true. There are societies outside the west where women can use the state or their communities to oppress men too. Again, MGTOW is not anti-woman, it is anti-gynocentrism.

MGTOW says women are evil because if you surrender all power they will take advantage of you. But I say you can still live life and not put yourself in a position to be taken advantage of, by going abroad and STAYING THERE. Bringing a girl to the U.S. is like a Muslim woman bringing her foreign husband to Saudi Arabia. As soon as you touch U.S. soil you are the bitch because of the structural nature of the legal and social system. She might be merciful, but you are still at an enormous disadvantage. Better not to give them that power in the first place.

Well no sh.t Sherlock! We already know this; you have not created any new revelations here about not taking women to the US or the West. However, most MGTOW don't want to marry PERIOD so it is not a big problem for us. But again, stop saying MGTOW say that women are evil. MGTOW says that the system enables women to be evil against men.

[Nailer]

My understanding is that those guys talk a lot about "the true nature of women" etc. but as you and I pointed out, it's really just a legal / social system that is giving one group of people a massive advantage over another. If you elevate a group of human beings to a godlike status and remove any negative consequences for their actions, sometimes even up to murder, guess what, they will behave badly. I think we both agree on that. However, I see a lot of MGTOW types who say going abroad isn't a solution, women are just naturally bad everywhere you go, etc.

As for the PUA / paleo / game cult, I think it might even be a clandestine operation, when I read comments like this:

You are sorely mistaken. Women love and will always be addicted to male energy, especially the high estrogen ones. Are you aware of how much money women in the west spend on lingerie? Didn't the huge success of thirty shades grey teach you anything? Feminist posturing is one big shit test to weed out the remaining alphas from the sea of castrated beta male and pseudo alpha pua wannabes.

This stuff is absolutely comical. These guys are mentally worse off than standard American cucks.

[Adama]

Probably the only thing to do is to leave the Anglosphere at least, and find a wife abroad.

It is both the system and the women in the states. Who do you think made women into gods in their own eyes, and puffed up their egos to the stratosphere? American women are goddesses who a person must be qualified to start a conversation with. While in virtually any other place in the world outside of the rest of the Anglosphere, a man can walk up to almost any woman and have a conversation with her at least. These American women are too good for men.

And many American women are playing the "keep away game" with men, in the form of attraction and rejection. I have encountered such games from American women numerous times and it seems to be their default. However, although I've had a couple of European women flake on me, I never had one play games like the many American women I've met will. European women will usually just walk away from you if they aren't interested, and they'll usually do it early rather than sticking around until the last minute. An American woman may very well be looking for a tool, either for her ego, or for more tangible things, but these psychopaths will lead you on thinking they are really interested, when it's the game to see if they can toy with you because you want them. Because they are GODS in their own eyes, that's why they are so evil, playing these games. They are not down to earth, humble people, but inflated in their own hearts and regarded too highly by men.

Men don't realize that they are the prize, not the women. Women were made for men, not men for women. And the woman is the servant. Take notice that the woman is smaller and the man is bigger, but the woman must still be the one carrying the baby. That's because she's the servant.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

My understanding is that those guys talk a lot about "the true nature of women" etc. but as you and I pointed out, it's really just a legal / social system that is giving one group of people a massive advantage over another. If you elevate a group of human beings to a godlike status and remove any negative consequences for their actions, sometimes even up to murder, guess what, they will behave badly. I think we both agree on that. However, I see a lot of MGTOW types who say going abroad isn't a solution, women are just naturally bad everywhere you go, etc.

I only speak on behalf of MGTOW, not those others.

What I can tell you is that you are one of the problems. In the above post, you allude to "Your understanding" which is essentially a croc of sh.t.

MGTOW is about what men are doing and what men are choosing not to do. Individuals who are MGTOW are free to love, hate, criticize, and ignore women. We are not all cut from the same cloth so when you come across some MGTOW post that includes his hatred of women you do yourself a disservice by claiming this is a MGTOW value. It is not.

An who cares about what some MGTOW think about going abroad. Some value going abroad and some do not. I happen to be abroad and I love it, but MGTOW does not speak to living abroad or not.

Finally, stop thinking in terms of MGTOW seeking a "solution" with women. MGTOW is about men doing what they want to do and that is solution enough.

Like I said, those other elements are not my department, but MGTOW is a huge vessel with room enough for debate, disagreement, and differing approaches. I'm just glad most people are smart enough to do their own research instead of heeding the gossip of posters he claim to have heard that "MGTOW want women to bow in the presence of all males and should sacrifice their lives to please all men." If that does exists, there is nothing MGTOW about that.

[OutWest]

My understanding is that those guys talk a lot about "the true nature of women" etc. but as you and I pointed out, it's really just a legal / social system that is giving one group of people a massive advantage over another. If you elevate a group of human beings to a godlike status and remove any negative consequences for their actions, sometimes even up to murder, guess what, they will behave badly. I think we both agree on that. However, I see a lot of MGTOW types who say going abroad isn't a solution, women are just naturally bad everywhere you go, etc.

I only speak on behalf of MGTOW, not those others.

What I can tell you is that you are one of the problems. In the above post, you allude to "Your understanding" which is essentially a croc of sh.t.

MGTOW is about what men are doing and what men are choosing not to do. Individuals who are MGTOW are free to love, hate, criticize, and ignore women. We are not all cut from the same cloth so when you come across some MGTOW post that includes his hatred of women you do yourself a disservice by claiming this is a MGTOW value. It is not.

An who cares about what some MGTOW think about going abroad. Some value going abroad and some do not. I happen to be abroad and I love it, but MGTOW does not speak to living abroad or not.

Finally, stop thinking in terms of MGTOW seeking a "solution" with women. MGTOW is about men doing what they want to do and that is solution enough.

Like I said, those other elements are not my department, but MGTOW is a huge vessel with room enough for debate, disagreement, and differing approaches. I'm just glad most people are smart enough to do their own research instead of heeding the gossip of posters he claim to have heard that "MGTOW want women to bow in the presence of all males and should sacrifice their lives to please all men." If that does exists, there is nothing MGTOW about that.

I know little of MGTOW, except, based on what you are writing, it is all about autonomy for men. Oh the horror! Lol. Slavery to government is closely linked to the emasculation of men as they morph into pathetic he-bitches who are capable of little resistance. As a man, you are pathetic if you are not making your own way, in defiance of the current social agenda in the West.
How can you get married in the West? All females already have a husband, called government. I am married, though that was not in America. We have a video. Several American women and some American men take issue with my still young wife repeating a wedding vow saying "to love, honor and obey. " She has never broken this vow. In fact, she is seeing it bring her great blessings.
How many American men say "I have to check with the boss. " ? What fags. If you want to live as a free man, you cannit spend your time getting permission to live from whatever fickle female.

[Nailer]

My understanding is that those guys talk a lot about "the true nature of women" etc. but as you and I pointed out, it's really just a legal / social system that is giving one group of people a massive advantage over another. If you elevate a group of human beings to a godlike status and remove any negative consequences for their actions, sometimes even up to murder, guess what, they will behave badly. I think we both agree on that. However, I see a lot of MGTOW types who say going abroad isn't a solution, women are just naturally bad everywhere you go, etc.

I only speak on behalf of MGTOW, not those others.

What I can tell you is that you are one of the problems. In the above post, you allude to "Your understanding" which is essentially a croc of sh.t.

MGTOW is about what men are doing and what men are choosing not to do. Individuals who are MGTOW are free to love, hate, criticize, and ignore women. We are not all cut from the same cloth so when you come across some MGTOW post that includes his hatred of women you do yourself a disservice by claiming this is a MGTOW value. It is not.

An who cares about what some MGTOW think about going abroad. Some value going abroad and some do not. I happen to be abroad and I love it, but MGTOW does not speak to living abroad or not.

Finally, stop thinking in terms of MGTOW seeking a "solution" with women. MGTOW is about men doing what they want to do and that is solution enough.

Like I said, those other elements are not my department, but MGTOW is a huge vessel with room enough for debate, disagreement, and differing approaches. I'm just glad most people are smart enough to do their own research instead of heeding the gossip of posters he claim to have heard that "MGTOW want women to bow in the presence of all males and should sacrifice their lives to please all men." If that does exists, there is nothing MGTOW about that.

I think you like to avoid taking a stance because if you don't have a position no one can criticize you; you just morph into whatever else is convenient at the moment and say "I am not like that". There are advantages to that strategy, but if you use it I will call you out on it.

[Nailer]

Here is your typical PUA:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXQk5oNVU3s[/youtube]

[Yohan]

MGTOW says you can't win, so don't even play. Even escaping the Anglosphere is not a solution, because if you bring her back to the U.S. she can screw up your life. They just think that women are inherently bad and nothing can be done...

I think you misunderstand what MGTOW really means. It seems you think only about a man who needs a female for sex but cannot find any girl for him.

You should look a bit deeper and ask why men become interested in MGTOW.

Many MGTOW never had a problem with a female partner as they never had one and because they had other much more difficult issues to solve than to search for a girlfriend.
Often MGTOW had in their past very bad experiences with females next to them who were their mother, sisters, other female relatives, female teachers, female co-workers - and so they decided to 'go their own way'.

MGTOW means, they did something which is not 'main-stream' and which is 'not politically correct'. MGTOW are often men who are very risk-averse due to bad experiences and you cannot blame them for that.

About myself, I decided to move on, from Europe to Asia, and I never came back during the last 40 years. I do not think that all women are inherently bad, I have a family, not Western, but Asian.
MGTOW are not against women in general, but they are against feminism.

[Yohan]

MGTOW is about what men are doing and what men are choosing not to do. Individuals who are MGTOW are free to love, hate, criticize, and ignore women. We are not all cut from the same cloth so when you come across some MGTOW post that includes his hatred of women you do yourself a disservice by claiming this is a MGTOW value. It is not.

An who cares about what some MGTOW think about going abroad. Some value going abroad and some do not. I happen to be abroad and I love it, but MGTOW does not speak to living abroad or not.

Finally, stop thinking in terms of MGTOW seeking a "solution" with women. MGTOW is about men doing what they want to do and that is solution enough.

There is not much what I can add to your correct definition of MGTOW.

What have all these MGTOW in common after all? Maybe one strong point of MGTOW is that they do not remain silent about their past and their bad experience with females, they are against hateful feminism.

They are willing to share information, despite radical feminists want to censor such information, want to ban such a life-style, call it 'hate-speech' if you dare to talk about it.

It is nice to see, that even some brave women show some understanding and are helping MGTOW. The latest example is the Red Pill Movie.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/business ... 2f6ebe1dbe

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5y-BZyOxDg[/youtube]


MGTOW is surely getting stronger, feminists are very worried about it.

[Cornfed]

Racial nationalism (I'm white, so in my case WN, but it applies to everyone) is basically a solid idea for all races, and was how everyone thought up until about 1965 North America and Europe. Without hating everyone, the Chinese, Indians, Kenyans, etc. put their own national interests first. This is good and healthy, and Europeans should be no different. However, there is a strong p***y-whipped element and worship of "white Aryan goddesses" that is just laughable. All bad female behavior is blamed on the Joos, because women have no agency and cannot be held accountable for their actions.

White knight nationalists have the same contradictory position on female agency as other feminists, saying females have none when it comes to excusing their ratshit behavior while saying they have plenty when it comes to granting them power and privilege. Generally the no-agency position is closer to the truth and the fact that all white females are crap is largely the fault of the ZOG and by extension white men for not deposing the ZOG. Thankfully the white knight nationalist faction is becoming irrelevant as the boomer cucks lapse into dribbling senility and memes such as white sharia gain ground.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

I think you like to avoid taking a stance because if you don't have a position no one can criticize you; you just morph into whatever else is convenient at the moment and say "I am not like that". There are advantages to that strategy, but if you use it I will call you out on it.

All you've done on this thread is try to bait people into an argument by intentionally misrepresenting MGTOW and some others elements of the manosphere. Then you pepper your commentary with effeminate sounding, "Well, my understanding is that...." or "I feel that...." or "It seems to me that...." which are all forms of vacuous discussion that feminists and effeminate men employ when they have been proven wrong.

Fortunate for me, I recognized what you were doing in your first post and just used this thread as another chance to explain MGTOW to men that matter because there are many quiet readers of this forum who are very interested in the concept. Your particular game of trolling back and forth is of no importance.

Now if you don't mind, leave the MGTOW discussions to the adults. We don't need finger-wagging, hands on the hips types like yourself polluting our ranks.

[Nailer]

From MGTOW.com, which is the official definition. If you consider this "not the real MGTOW" then tough luck, you were too dumb to purchase your own domain name:

M.G.T.O.W – Men Going Their Own Way is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: “No”. Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a “man” is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to his own best interests in a world which would rather he didn’t.

How is that anything special? I already do that. It's like it's written by very whipped guys who are just starting to have self-respect. It sounds exactly like some lady saying "feminism is the radical notion that women are people. You don't want to murder hookers? Great! You are a feminist!"


I am glad to see any resistance to the last 50 years of feminism, but right now it's just a bunch of wordplay and wishy-washiness.

Okay, here's what really bugs me. These videos are all from MGTOW.com so they are the official stance of MGTOW. (If you disagree, get a new acronym and purchase the domain name.)

Emphasis on career success over relationships
Why are you not already successful? Money gives you power to have more choices. Why are you stating the obvious like it is some revolutionary idea? Yes, be successful. What the hell does this have to do with "MGTOW"?
https://www.mgtow.com/video/the-break-up/

The Delusion that Anyone Cares
This is so crazy it cracks me up. The idea that guys can create a cartel to deny women sex and relationships, in order to create more favorable bargaining conditions is laughable. Guess what, the minute conditions become slightly more favorable guys will rush back into the market and we are back at square one. The idea that any girl notices or cares or has even heard of "MGTOW" is Elliot-Rodgers-levels of nuts:
https://www.mgtow.com/video/why-women-hate-mgtow/

The idea that hobbies are fulfilling enough to take up all your free time
How many hours a day can you spend painting or listening to music? This is insane.

Extreme Overanalysis of "female nature" and evolutionary psychology
If I hear one more time that "women are by nature hypergamous" I will eat my own arm. People act in their own self interests. I someone has all the advantages they will generally use it. This a continuation of the PUA alpha / beta garbage, and PUA is a proven fraud.

Although there are some good points in there that should be common sense for most guys, there's a side of mental poison served with it.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

From MGTOW.com, which is the official definition. If you consider this "not the real MGTOW" then tough luck, you were too dumb to purchase your own domain name:

M.G.T.O.W – Men Going Their Own Way is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: “No”. Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a “man” is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to his own best interests in a world which would rather he didn’t.

How is that anything special? I already do that. It's like it's written by very whipped guys who are just starting to have self-respect. It sounds exactly like some lady saying "feminism is the radical notion that women are people. You don't want to murder hookers? Great!

Ah, no..... You are not already like that. You are what we call a simp and a mangina because you had the asinine impulse to accuse MGTOW of necessarily "hating women."

That means your mentality is gynocentric and MGTOW would want nothing to do with the likes of you. You are a cancer and a cuck, nothing that deserves anything more than ridicule and scorn when your gynocentric "comeuppance" transpires.

Lose the shaming attitude and the smug false accusations against MGTOW as a concept and you might one day cease to be a mangina (Although I'm quite sure you will likely always be a simp given your posting history.)

[Adama]

I kinda wish MGTOW would just go away. Even the PUAs will leave you alone. There are PUAs out there, but at least they aren't stalking every corner of the internet, like it seems with MGTOW. Always trying to convert someone to their religion. You don't see the PUAs everywhere constantly running their mouths about PUA. Sure there are PUAs who run their mouths, but not all the time in every place to the point where it's hard to avoid them.

Don't construe that as them being successful. It's probably more like, just like the feminist evangelists, these MGTOW simply can't shut their mouths: they're going out of their way to spread this religion.

You'd think most of them would actually simply go their own way. (And why would anyone need to be told to go their own way? As if that wouldn't be their first thought? To stop playing the game?) But anyhow, instead of them just living their lives, they're out trying to make converts and denouncing anyone who doesn't agree with them.

It really is a cult, and they're out there constantly recruiting. Recruitment. Recruitment. Recruitment.